Talk:Solar System

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RfC: Solar System lead is terrible

This Featured Article (!!) lead could be used in the MoS in "How not to write a lead". The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, it should not give one sentence for every single component! HarryAlffa (talk) 17:26, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I asked YellowMonkey how he passed the lead at a recent FA review, but he didn't reply. HarryAlffa (talk) 17:27, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually he did, on his talk page. Serendi^podous 17:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I knew you would say that. But "Your first point is very misleading." is not a reply. HarryAlffa (talk) 18:02, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah. I didn't realise you'd already got into an argument with him. Serendi^podous 18:07, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

You've been to his talk page and seen the extent and nature of it, don't you think the misrepresentation of "argument" is tantamount to out-right lying? HarryAlffa (talk) 20:12, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually no. I thought your initial response to him was remarkably uncivil. But then you obviously have a very different definition of civility than anyone here. Serendi^podous 11:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

As usual, exaggerated, deliberate, dishonest misrepresentation unworthy of a Wikipeadian, tantamount to out-right lying. See YellowMonkey HarryAlffa (talk) 13:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

You obviously have an issue distinguishing stating a fact from stating an opinion. I was not stating a fact. I was stating my opinion of your behaviour. Take it as you will. Serendi^podous 14:26, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Move to close this - it has become disruptive in nature. This is the second (third? fourth?) attempt by the same editor to rewrite the lead per his preferences, despite receiving little or no support for his proposals. --Ckatz^chat_spy 18:28, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Typical, deceptive misrepresentation. HarryAlffa (talk) 20:02, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Close this RFC as forum shopping. Ruslik (talk) 19:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

You have to laugh at RfC=Forum Shopping :) HarryAlffa (talk) 20:02, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Ckatz, why be afraid of a wider audience? I said this previous lead was no good, but you swore blind it was fine, over time it became even worse, as soon as I took it for a FA review it was changed, so how right were you? Not very. The article has been controlled by the same 3 or 4 editors for the last year or so (two, three, four?). The FA Review only had one or two additional editors from the usual suspects and they were critical of the lead as it was - hence the (not very good) change. HarryAlffa (talk) 20:02, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I think it is self-evident that the lead falls down, but would like a MUCH wider audience to assess this, which I hope will result in a better article. HarryAlffa (talk) 20:02, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Harry, no-one here is "afraid" (as you put it) of having fresh eyes look at the article. What is tiresome is your insistence that yours is the only correct viewpoint. You've argued here, through your "summary" articles, and at the FA review pages, only to find that there isn't support for what you want. And yet, you've opened yet another venue with this RfC. You've also been doing much the same thing with regards to the Manual of Style and linking - insisting that you are correct, and others are wrong, despite almost complete opposition. --Ckatz^chat_spy 20:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I notice the weasel words in there. More personal attacks and misrepresentation, pretty close to out-right lying. HarryAlffa (talk) 21:12, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Mostly you, it seems. --Ckatz^chat_spy 22:10, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. I support the lead as it is. While it may set forth a few controversial items as truth, such as the only partially settled "Definition of planet" issue and the up and coming "Earth's Moon is actually a major planet" issue, the lead is, after all, the first impression a reader sees. And when talking about a Featured Article such as this, no major changes in the lead or in any other part of the article ought to be made without extrememly close scrutiny, discussion on the Talk page, consensus of all involved editors and formal dispute settlement if necessary. Sorry Harry, you may be correct about the lead needing work; however, since this is a Featured Article, as a serious editor of Wikipedia you are expected to abide by Wikipedia:Defend the status quo. And you will need more support before you're able to justify any major alterations.  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  23:11, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

• Paine, I am correct, but I nor anyone else serious or not, is bound by any type of essay. The essay Wikipedia:Defend the status quo has nothing to do with the style of the Lead, it is about quality of information, and the lead isn't wrong, it is simply not a summary.

• Comment The lead looks pretty much fine to me as it stands now. It describes in summary fashion what is covered in the article body and gives an overview of the salient features of the solar system. Possibly some of the paragraphs could be shortened a bit to make room for a brief summary of what is in the Galactic context and Formation sections. If that was done, then people could just read the lead and have everything they need to know about the solar system. Franamax (talk) 19:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Could you further summarize existing paragraphs to make room? HarryAlffa (talk) 13:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
• Comment A Request for Comment should be a neutrally-worded polite solicitation of opinions from outside editors, with a view to clarifying or achieving consensus where simple discussion has failed. As such, this is a complete failure, as its wording is likely to polarise respondents and to make reaching consensus more difficult. So for example, while I might be agreeable to making some improvements to the lead paragraph as it now stands, I would strongly disagree with the opinion that the lead is in a "terrible" state. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 14:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

• Looks fine to me: I came here straight out of the blue, from an RfC list I'd never seen before, via some odd path from my Watchlist. And, while the lead might have been a bit slow, a bit long and slightly pedestrian, and while even the most brilliant leads can usually benefit from periodic re-examination and tweaking, this one was quite interesting and told me, as a layman who has no particularly strong interest in astronomy, just about everything I'd want to know and everything I might want to investigate further, even if I hadn't known or wondered about them before. —— Shakescene (talk) 15:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
  • But if you didn't read the article, you cannot determine if it conforms to WP:Lead. It doesn't. By your experience of reading it (bit slow, a bit long and slightly pedestrian) also confirms my feeling that it is to poor for a Featured Article - "fine" & "quite interesting" doesn't cut it. HarryAlffa (talk) 14:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

    If it's fine and quite interesting to readers, then this has to at least partially "cut it". And another concern is what the lead was like at the time Solar System became FA. The lead can't be too shabby if today's lead is pretty much what it was when it achieved FA status. And now look above! This article is also considered a "vital article in science". Seems to me the entire article including the lead is more than acceptable just as it is.  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  14:39, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

• Comment: Looks fine to me dude.. I thought it was a great introduction to the article, being very informative and interesting. Btw, why is the RfC so biased? Aren't they supposed to be NPOV and civil to get better comments? Stating only one side of the argument (and it seems to be a lonely side?) only helps in polarizing debate, which is never good. Give it a rest, dude.. the lead is fine. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 05:54, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

What is our solar system called?

If our galaxy is the Milky Way Galaxy, what is our solar system called? Our planet is "Terra" right? ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.129.249 (talk) 06:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Our Solar System is called the "Solar System." Technically the term "other solar systems" is inaccurate, but there isn't an accepted term for extrasolar systems yet. Our planet is called "Earth" or "the Earth." It is called "Terra" in Spanish and Portuguese. For the record, our star is called "the Sun" (capitalised) and our natural satellite is called "the Moon" (capitalised). "Sol" and "Luna" are only used in Spanish, Portuguese and science fiction. Serendi^podous 06:46, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

"Sol", "Luna" and "Terra" are not Spanish: they are Latin names. Spanish, Portuguese, Italian (and maybe some other Neo-Latin language that I'm not aware of) kept this ancient words. Even the English word "Solar" came from the Latin word "Solaris" (of the Sun). Latin was the international language of science for centuries, at least until the 17th century (e.g. Sir Isaac Newton wrote in Latin), but some Latin texts were still written afterward. Of course in english they got different names and in all languages I know the Moon is called (the equivalent of) "Moon". The Moon is the name of a natural satellite, the Sun is a star, the same as Sirius, Rigel, Merak, ... you could call them "suns", but they are stars, and a star can own a planetary system or after the name of the main star: "Epsilon Eridani System" Negadrive (talk) 10:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The words "terra" and "luna" are no older than the words "Earth" and "moon"; they've just been written down longer. Spanish, Portuguese and Italian retained those words because they are descended from Latin. English is a Germanic language, and so uses Germanic words. And yes, while Latin was the international language of science for many centuries, Latinising a word doesn't necessarily afford it any more scientific credibility. My main issue with this, and I admit I do have a bee in my bonnet about it, is that the determination shown by some people on Wikipedia (not in this discussion, but certainly in other instances) to Latinise the Sun and Moon's names to make them more "scientific" really only makes them look like realistically-challenged geeks who've been reading too many Asimov novels, which does few wonders for Wikipedia's already strained credibility. Serendi^podous 12:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

COOL

I WANT TO DO A PROJECT ON THE SOLAR SYSTEM, BUT I THINK IT'LL BE HARD! SO I NEED TO GO TO THE DOLLARE STORE AND GET SOME CLAY! MAYBE SOME COLOURFUL CLAY! THAT'LL WORK!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.113.44.61 (talk) 19:25, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

How's that coming along? Serendi^podous 12:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Doubled image not resolved

The following was archived before my question was answered:

Layout and images

I've made a few tweaks to image layout - hope no-one minds. Could someone add a footnote to this image? I have absolutely no idea what it shows and the article doesn't seem to mention it either. Thanks Smartse (talk) 13:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Black: scattered; blue: classical; green: resonant

The present caption looks okay, and readers can click on the image for details. There is another similar image just above this one on the left. Are both really needed? If I had to choose which to stay, I would opt for this one.  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  21:58, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

(out) And I ask again, are both these images really needed in the article? One is on the left in the Kuiper belt subsection, and one is on the right in the Scattered disk subsection. Why does this article need both?  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  20:11, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Because one shows the Kuiper belt and the other shows the scattered disc. Serendi^podous 20:15, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I do get that, Serendipodous, I do. My question is still out there because the image above shows both. And since they're so much alike, isn't it possible that the inclusion of both images is confusing to readers?  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  21:08, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

It would be confusing regardless, because the current state of knowledge is confusing. It isn't easy to separate the Kuiper belt from the Scattered disc, and many astronomers don't. However, the Minor Planet Center, which is the closest thing we have to an authority on the subject, does, so we do. Serendi^podous 08:26, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I suspect the average reader pretty much skips over those diagrams since the region beyond Neptune is generically all basically the same. Most average readers consider the asteroid belt as a single generic region and don't care about the inner vs outer asteroid belt or the kirkwood gaps. -- Kheider (talk) 15:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

While agreeing that our readers believes the region beyond Neptune is all the same to assume our readers don't care to inform themselves is completely contrary to our spirit of being an encyclopedia that educates people, and is an assumption we should never make. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 16:03, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Extrasolar systems

I'm looking, but I can't see a single term for the generic version of our Solar System. You know, a star and its associated bodies beyond ours. Am I missing something? Otherwise this seems like quite a massive oversight in the terminology. Surely people who study this kind of thing must have a term for it? Star system generally encompasses this in sci-fi, but it seems the technical term only applies to stars in close association. --62.31.151.92 (talk) 21:19, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

My guess is that, since we've never actually been to any other extrasolar locations, there isn't a distinct term for "Extrasolar system" except perhaps that phrase itself. Solar System is supposedly specific to our own system, but... I don't know, saying that using the term with an "Extrasolar system" is incorrect seems hyper-technical/pedantic to me. Is there a real need for a distinct phrase?
— Ω (talk) 21:42, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Maya Solar system

I've read that the earliest known evidence for studies of the Solar system (and astronomy in general) by the Maya dates back to 300 BCE. So while their accomplishments are many and impressive, like usage of zero in their astronomical calculations, they are not really notable as an exception to the "many thousands of years" claim. It would be interesting to see some of these "notable exceptions". If examples are not given, isn't this an example of weasel words?
 —  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  07:30, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

The Maya did not believe in a heliocentric cosmos, as far as I'm aware. Notable exceptions are mentioned in the main Discovery and exploration article. Serendi^podous 14:46, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Where are the moons?

Very good article!

One very important thing is missing, in my opinion. It baffles me how in a discussion on the Solar System, or Planets, or the like, this part seems always left out. One could believe that the entire astronomical community was purposely discriminating by leaving out this very important group of solar system bodies!

What I am talking about are the moons. Just because they travel in secondary orbits, why does it seem that they are not worthy of mention? Certainly they are members of the Solar System, too.

The moons fall into three sizes, if classified by mass:

1. The large moons, specifically, Earth's Moon (Luna), Io, Europa, Ganymede, Callisto, Titan, and perhaps Triton, are basically planets that rival the likes of Mercury and the terrestrial planets. Certainly they deserve mention individually or collectively as a group. These large bodies are more substantial than any of the dwarf planets like Ceres or the Kuiper Belt dwarfs that are mentioned in the article.

2. The medium-sized, or dwarf-planet sized moons. Four to seven of Saturn's moons and four or five of Uranus' compare well with Ceres in size. Triton is about the size of Pluto. (I believe the IAU should be considering a "dwarf moon" definition.)

3. The very small moons are more or less like the astroids and comets that orbit the sun. Even so, Phoebos, Deimos, and several others in this category have names and are well known.

Another nice way to classify these bodies would be geologically: "rocky" moons (Luna) vs. "icy" moons. Titan even has a subtantial atmosphere making it more like Earth, Venus, and Mars, than like Mercury, any other moon, or dwarf planet. GeoPopID (talk) 20:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC)