Talk:Christianity and homosexuality

Born Eunuchs

i stumbled across this and i think this should be incorporated into the article

• http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/thesis.htm

(1) born eunuchs could have complete genitals, (2) they had no lust for women, and (3) they had lust for men.

this makes a case for eunuchs being what we call gay today and this has a relevance to the Christianity because of Matthew 19:12 "For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[a]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

• Clement of Alexandria relates the beliefs of the followers of Basilides, a Gnostic leader, about Matthew 19:12: "Some men, from their birth, have a nature to turn away from women; and those who are naturally constituted in this way do well not to marry. These, they say, are the eunuchs from birth."60 As noted previously, Clement himself stated that a eunuch is unwilling (not unable) to perform sexual intercourse.

• Among the orthodox Christians, Tertullian said that eunuchs "repudiate marriage."64 Jerome felt that eunuchs from their mother's womb were "those of a colder nature, who do not seek lust."65 Gregory of Nazianzos (Oration 37:16-17) warned born eunuchs against being arrogant about their abstinence (with women, presumably) and at the same time against committing ritual prostitution, which had probably been a tradition among eunuchs since Babylonian times:

              "Be not proud, you who are eunuchs by nature. Your abstinence is practically
              involuntary. You are not tempted, and your abstention is not tested by trials.
              That which is good by nature is spurious; that by deliberate choice, is laudable.
              What praise is due to fire for burning? Burning is in its nature. What praise is
              due to the rain for falling down? It is the Creator who makes it do so. What praise
              to snow for being cold? or to the sun for shining? It shines without wanting to.
              I praise that which desires what is better. Praise to you, if, born flesh, you become
              spirit; if, weighed down like lead by the flesh, you take wing by the word; if, born
              low, you find heaven; if, bound by flesh, you rise above the flesh.

              "Since your abstention is not laudable, I ask something else of eunuchs. Do not
              commit prostitution in divine matters. Having yoked yourself to Christ, do not
              dishonor Christ. Perfected by the Spirit, do not make yourselves equal to the Spirit.
              'If I yet sought to please men, says Paul, I would not be the slave of Christ.'
              If I serve a creature, I will not be called a Christian." 

This text is from the fourth century CE, a period of intense fighting between the supporters of the Arian doctrine, many of whom were eunuchs, and the forces supporting what was to become Christian orthodoxy, namely the belief that Jesus was fully and eternally God as well as human. During this time, eunuchs were highly influential as servants to the Roman emperors, who from the fourth century on were (almost) always Christian. Within two centuries, however, the concept of a born eunuch all but disappeared from western European culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.26.124.0 (talk) 22:54, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

i think it's very noteworthy and it should be in the article but not by me ~kp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.26.124.0 (talk) 22:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

While interesting, it offers nothing that would affect the traditional position on homosexual relations. Motive or orientation is never the determining factor in laws against illicit sex partners, with everything from incest to bestiality being unequivocally condemned. Strong desire is included in Rm. 1:27, but not in a sanctifying sense, and is treated as a consequence of rejecting God's order. While some have sought to extrapolate gay marriage out of Mt. 19:11,12, the "what" of "what therefore God has joined together" is distinctly confirmed by Jesus to be the male and female of Gn. 1:27; 2:24, and marriage is only established as between opposite genders, whose uniquely compatibility and complementarity is seen to transcend the procreative aspect. (SoS; 1Cor. 11:1-12)Daniel1212 (talk) 22:36, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

It applies to eunuchs, who would be included in an article on LGBT, but as you say do not equate to the modern category 'homosexual'. What can be established is that (regardless of traditionalist POVs) contemporary commentators have suggested the significance of references to eunuchs (such as the story of the Ethiopian) shows that people from sexual/gender minorities (i.e., today's LGBT) did feature in the Gospels and New Testament, and without distinctly negative connotations. Mish (talk) 10:09, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Enormous proposed cut

I propose that we cut out everything in the article from the "Conflict" headline onward. This section is rambling, badly written, completely irrelevant to the rest of the article, and has been tagged with multiple tags for almost a year which show no signs of being redressed. The article would be improved by cutting these sections. Pianoguy (talk) 02:30, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I think the "choice and free will" section should go, too, unless it is completely rewritten so that it has something to do with Christianity.BoulderCreek12 (talk) 18:57, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Since there doesn't seem to be any objection I have gone ahead and made this cut. Pianoguy (talk) 15:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Headline text

The introduction states "In traditional Christianity, most Christians have regarded homosexuality as immoral." There is a comment that states "it may be that only sexual relationships between members of the same sex were regarded as immoral, but the topic of this article has been determined by consensus to be something else, namely homosexuality. If the description "immoral" does not fit, then provide an appropriate description of how Christianity has viewed homosexuality, rather than changing the subject to sexual relationships between members of the same sex."

Homosexuality is considered a sexual orientation by the APA. I understand that this article is about homosexuality, and not same-sex relationships, but we can't mislead people to think that traditional Christianity thinks a sexual orientation is immoral. If we need to have the word homosexuality in the title, could we say something like "In traditional Christianity, most Christians have regarded homosexuality as an immoral practice, but have had differing views on homosexuality as a sexual orientation." Whatever we put, it needs to accurately portray Christianity and Homosexuality. Joshuajohanson (talk) 00:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Difference between homosexuality and homosexual sex

In the first paragraph of the article, it says that the Roman Catholic church believes that homosexuality is intrinsically sinful, but this is not the case. Homosexual sex is considered sinful, but this applies to both homosexuals and heterosexuals alike, just as heterosexual sex outside of marriage is considered sinful. Homosexuality, as in the deep-seated and exclusive sexual attraction to the same sex, is no more sinful than heterosexuality. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church it states that "they do not choose their homosexual condition" (CCC-2358) which would mean that if they do not choose it, then it is the way that they were created by God, and if God is God then He makes no mistakes. Some people are tempted towards one type of sin and others towards another. Someone with a tendency towards gambling is no more intrinsically sinful than a homosexual; each are tempted by a different type of sin. Temptation does not render a person sinful; temptation renders a person human. --Adriannajean (talk) 17:29, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Since this article is about Christianity and homosexuality, would it be fair to say in the introduction that the Roman Catholic Church has a neutral view of homosexuality, or that it is even a positive view? It would be helpful to know more about what the Roman Church thinks about homosexuality besides just that it is a God-given temptation (which itself is perhaps a bit theologically problematic). Is homosexuality not "intrinsically disordered" according to the Vatican?--Bhuck (talk) 16:37, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why it is "dubious" that some Conservative Synods of the Lutheran Church consider homosexuality sinful. The Missouri synod's views on sexuality are clear: it is sinful, whether sex is involved or not. The LCMS is certainly a Conservative Synod, so that should clear the debate. Michaelzxhc (talk) 01:52, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I tried to correct this by saying that Roman Catholics just opposed gay sex, not homosexuality, but it was reverted by the comment saying "I highly doubt that." The Catholic Church said "men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies ... must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." It doesn't sound like the condemn any sexual orientation, just gay sex. Unless there is evidence that they condemn something more than gay sex, I am putting it back. Joshuajohanson (talk) 22:51, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Tommaso Stenico

It would be interesting of we could have an entry on Tommaso Stenico, a clerical inquisitor at the Vatican who was forced to admit his homosexuality after a hidden camera caught him making illicit advances. [1] ADM (talk) 20:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Homosexual people and Christianity

The paragraph about gay Christians who wish to abstain from gay sex was removed from the section on Homosexuals people and Christianity. It was put in the section on reparative therapy, but I don't think most of these people support reparative therapy, so it really shouldn't be in that section. I think, in order to honest, we need to talk about all gay Christians in this section. Also, the Nicolosi survey was peer-reviewed. Joshuajohanson (talk) 23:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

What you think they support is not important. It is sources that matter. As you persist in adding groups, rather than people, I have changed the section heading to reflect this, and added some other groups who support lesbian and gay Christians to be lesbian and gay Christians. Mish (talk) 10:31, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Choice, repentance, change and the conversion/reparative therapy movement

The placement of these sentences are misleading: "Christians who view homosexual sex as sin believe that homosexuals can change and, while welcoming homosexuals to their churches, call on them to "repent and be changed". The mainstream mental health consensus in the United States and elsewhere is that "most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."

It starts off talking about homosexual sex, and then goes into a statement about choice in sexual orientation. The placement makes it seem as if the Christian view is in contradiction to the APA, which it is not. They are about two different things. Joshuajohanson (talk) 16:54, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

It still is misleading. What does the whole discussion of the APA have to do with anything? Does anyone believe sexual orientation is a choice? A quick read makes it seem as if those who believe gay sex is a sin think a homosexual orientation is a choice. What does that have to do with reparative therapy? Do you see how all of these topics are not related, but are thrown together to make it seem as if these groups are claiming something they are not? The misleading tag stays until it is clear what the relationship between all of these things really are. It is going to have to take some major reworking. If the APA stuff about sexual orientation not being a choice is to remain in the section, it needs to be clear that most of these groups agree with the APA in that respect. As it now stands, there seems to be a disagreement. Joshuajohanson (talk) 17:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The section now reads: "Christians who view homosexual sex as sin believe that homosexuals can change and, while welcoming homosexuals to their churches, call on them to "repent and be changed". Against this, the American Psychological Association considers homosexual behavior to be as normal as heterosexual behavior." I'm sorry, but that is WP:Synthesis. The APA views eating pork as normal, but doesn't mean they go against the Muslim belief that eating pork is a sin and pork lovers can change. Those are two different things. Again, it has the false implication that the APA somehow thinks a change in sexual behavior is not possible. Joshuajohanson (talk) 18:32, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Fine, I put it back the way it was before people started fiddling with it. Mish (talk) 19:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Material from homosexuality and religion

This was removed from the homosexuaity and religion article as being in far too much detail, and more appropriate for this page (if it is not already all covered here):

The Roman Catholic Church and later, Reformed and Protestant churches traditionally condemned same-sex sexual relations, based on scripture texts such as describing a man lying with another man 18:22 as sinful acts. Where the Catholic view is founded on a natural law argument informed by scripture, the traditional conservative Protestant view is based on an interpretation of scripture alone. Certain books in the Bible, such as Leviticus, suggest that same-sex sexual relations between men is seen as sinful by God; a "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination".18:22 Paul, in the Epistle to the Romans, referring to people who had turned from God out of wickedness, and worshiped creatures rather than the Creator, describes how, as a consequence of this, God left them to their own devices: "Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another".Romans 1:26–27 He gives a list of the sorts of things people who turned their backs on God have done, and follows this by pointing out that we have all done these sorts of things, and says "Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgement on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things".Romans 2:1

Protestant conservatives also see homosexual relationships as an impediment to heterosexual relationships. They interpret some Biblical passages to be commandments to be heterosexually married such as "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh"(Genesis 2:24) and "Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord"(1 Corinthians 11:11). Catholics, on the other hand, have accommodated unmarried people as priests, monks, nuns and single lay people for many years. A number of ex-gay Christians have reported satisfaction in their heterosexual marriages.

Denunciation of homosexuality is also seen in surviving early Christian writings; such as in the Didache and the writings of Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, St. Cyprian, Eusebius, St. Basil the Great, St. John Chrysostom, St. Augustine of Hippo, and in doctrinal sources such as the Apostolic Constitutions — for example, Eusebius of Caesarea's statement which condemns "the union of women with women and men with men.” Many prominent Christian theologians have been critical of homosexuality throughout the religion's history. Thomas Aquinas denounced sodomy as second only to bestiality as the worst of all sexual sins, and Hildegard of Bingen's book Scivias, which was officially approved by Pope Eugene III, condemned sexual relations between women as "perverted forms."

In the 20th century, theologians like Karl Barth, Jürgen Moltmann, Hans Kung, John Robinson, Bishop David Jenkins, Don Cupitt, Bishop Jack Spong challenged traditional theological positions and understandings of the Bible; following these developments some have suggested that passages have been mistranslated or that they do not refer to what we understand as "homosexuality." Clay Witt, a minister in the Metropolitan Community Church, explains how theologians and commentators like John Shelby Spong, George Edwards and Michael England interpret injunctions against certain sexual acts as being originally intended as a means of distinguishing religious worship between Abrahamic and the surrounding pagan faiths, within which homosexual acts featured as part of idolatrous religious practices: "England argues that these prohibitions should be seen as being directed against sexual practices of fertility cult worship. As with the earlier reference from Strong’s, he notes that the word 'abomination' used here is directly related to idolatry and idolatrous practices throughout the Hebrew Testament. Edwards makes a similar suggestion, observing that 'the context of the two prohibition in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 suggest that what is opposed is not same-sex activity outside the cult, as in the modern secular sense, but within the cult identified as Canaanite'".

The Roman Catholic Church, maintains what it regards as early Christian teaching on homosexuality, and that sex is solely for procreation: "Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that 'homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.' They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."

The Catholic Church requires those who are attracted to people of the same sex to practice chastity, because sexuality should only be practiced within marriage, which it regards as permanent, procreative, heterosexual, and monogamous. The Church acknowledges that homosexuality can be a problem for people attracted to the same sex, rather than the opposite sex, but stresses that such people "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity." The Vatican distinguishes between "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" and the "expression of a transitory problem", in relation to ordination to the priesthood; saying that homosexual tendencies "must be clearly overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints takes a position of self controlling any tendencies towards same-gender attraction. Dallin H. Oaks, a leader in the LDS church, stated “All of us have some feelings we did not choose, but the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us that we still have the power to resist and reform our feelings (as needed) and to assure that they do not lead us to entertain inappropriate thoughts or to engage in sinful behavior”. Homoerotic thoughts, feelings and behaviors are considered to be a problem that everyone can and should overcome. Homosexual activity is considered a serious sin on par or greater than other sexual activity outside of a legal, heterosexual marriage and those involved may be excommunicated. However, despite this position, the church decries any unkind act towards gays, as is manifest in this statement: "The Church’s opposition to same-sex marriage neither constitutes nor condones any kind of hostility towards homosexual men and women. Protecting marriage between a man and a woman does not affect Church members’ Christian obligations of love, kindness and humanity toward all people."

Richard Land, the head of the public policy board of the Southern Baptist Convention, claims that the "radical homosexual agenda" is one of "America's Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse." Even among denominations that proclaim homosexuality to be sinful, there is usually an official policy of "love the sinner, hate the sin."

Al Sharpton, a Baptist minister and Civil rights leader, offered a different Christian perspective during his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2004, arguing that asking whether gays or lesbians should be able to get married was insulting: "That's like saying you give blacks, or whites, or Latinos the right to shack up -- but not get married [...] It's like asking 'do I support black marriage or white marriage'. . . . The inference of the question is that gays are not like other human beings".

Other Christian denominations do not condemn homosexual acts as bad or evil and some liberal Christians are open and affirming to active homosexuals. Indeed, there is a denomination of 40,000 members, the Metropolitan Community Church, devoted to being open and affirming to active homosexuals. The United Church of Christ also condones gay marriage and some parts of the Anglican and Lutheran churches allow for the blessing of gay unions. The United Church of Canada also allows same-sex marriage, and views sexual orientation as a gift from God. Within the Anglican communion there are openly gay clergy, for example, Gene Robinson is an openly gay Bishop in the US Episcopal Church.

There exist religious groups and denominations whose interpretation of scripture and doctrine states that homosexuality is morally acceptable, and a natural occurrence. For example, in 1988 the United Church of Canada, that country's largest Protestant denomination, affirmed that "a) All persons, regardless of their sexual orientation, who profess Jesus Christ and obedience to Him, are welcome to be or become full member of the Church; and b) All members of the Church are eligible to be considered for the Ordered Ministry." In 2000, the Church's General Assembly further affirmed that "human sexual orientations, whether heterosexual or homosexual, are a gift from God and part of the marvelous diversity of creation."

Desmond Tutu, the former Archbishop of Cape Town and a Nobel Peace Price winner, has described homophobia as a "crime against humanity" and "every bit as unjust" as apartheid: "We struggled against apartheid in South Africa, supported by people the world over, because black people were being blamed and made to suffer for something we could do nothing about; our very skins. It is the same with sexual orientation. It is a given. ... We treat them [gays and lesbians] as pariahs and push them outside our communities. We make them doubt that they too are children of God - and this must be nearly the ultimate blasphemy. We blame them for what they are."

Others consider that Christ made the commandments to "love God and one's neighbour," and to "love one's neighbour as oneself" touchstones of the moral law; that these imply a radical equality, and that, by this principle of equality, the Law of Moses is to be adjusted. Jesus exemplified this principle in his teaching on divorce. Furthermore, it is said that Jesus Christ instituted a virtue ethic, whereby the worth of one's action is to be adjudged by one's interior disposition. For these reasons, it is said that to condemn homosexuality is to fall into a pre-Christian "Pharasaical" legalism.

Passages from the Old Testament have been interpreted to argue that homosexuals should be punished with death, and AIDS has been portrayed by some such as Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwell as a punishment by God against homosexuals. Religious condemnation has been such a deep source of pain, many lesbian and gay youth have prayed to God to become heterosexual.

spelling

I reverted the change to the British English spelling in one section heading. Looking through the article, both US and British spellings are used - and the article contains material about the USA, UK and other countries. The MoS suggests that the spelling should be consistent within articles, and this is determined by the focus (i.e., exclusively US articles use US spelling, UK use British). This is not as straightforward, and given both spellings already feature, if spelling is going to be adjusted for one form of spelling it should be discussed before making changes, as enforcing US spelling will necessarily mean that this will weight the focus of the article towards an American perspective. Mish (talk) 07:57, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

LDS Church

The debate about whether the LDS Church is considered a Christian denominations has been hashed over multiple times on higher level pages. As one editor on Talk:Christianity said the last time this came up, "Can we nip this discussion in the bud? We've had it before. We'll have it again. The shorter it is, the better. We refer to JWs and Mormons as Christians whether they "really" are or not." But here are a few reliable sources that include the LDS Church as a Christian denominations:

• 2001 American Religious Identification Survey
• Christianity
• CIA - The World Factbook -- Field Listing::Religion

And some high level pages on WP that make the same categorization:

• Christianity
• List of Christian denominations
• List of religions and spiritual traditions
• Almost all the US State pages that list the religious demographic percentages
• Even the header navbox on this page includes the LDS in its list of denominational positions

Such is the established consensus and pattern used across WP. If the pattern is going to change, it should first happen at the higher level pages. --FyzixFighter (talk) 07:31, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

As you say, this is a persistent problem. I have broken the paragraph up to clarify Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian Christianity. Mish (talk) 08:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Please note that the LDS reference in the lead is problematic for other reasons, in that it does not reflect an entry on LDS views in the article itself (the lead should summarise the article) and it is not backed up with a citation. Mish (talk) 08:19, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Schwinn may call their bicycles "automobiles" but if all of the automobile manufacturers call it a "bicycle", it would still be a bicycle. The basic and most universal tenets of Christianity are denied by the LDS church, hence, it cannot by any definition be referred to as "Christian" nor do any mainstream classically Christian denominations refer to it as so. Mormons may refer to themselves as Christians, but Christians do not refer to themselves as Mormons. Publicly edited entries in Wikipedia carry no weight or authority nor do state lists of "religious demographics" which put "Scientology" into the same mix. At the end of the day, the people with the most time on their hands can reshape the content of Wikipedia recasting bicycles into automobiles. This is most disconcerting as people come to Wikipedia to try to understand subject matters and when avid LDS people misinform, it only lends to confusion, not understanding. If I were an adherent to the LDS, I would do so proudly without trying to hope people think I was something else. I do thank JoshuaJohnson for a tolerable compromise in the opening language of this article, but the term "Christian" is used in a very loose generic sense, not in a biblical sense. Theleopard (talk) 18:30, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

The LDS church is definitely Abrahamic. On the Religion and homosexuality page, Abrahamic churches are divided into three categories - Christian, Muslim, and Jewish. Which of the three should the LDS church be placed? Joshuajohanson (talk) 18:47, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

It is odd that a sect which started up in the 19th Century and considers that Christian denominations that persist from the time of the Apostles are not really Christian, and denies some of the central tenets of what most Christian denominations have held as central since the formulation of the Nicene Creed (and its variants), also considers itself 'Christian' - but the LDS does appear to, and often we find the irrational, unreasonable, paradoxical and self-contradiction in Christianity. I was surprised to see how far Mormonism had integrated itself amongst mainstream denominations in the encyclopedia, as my understanding has always been that it is not accepted as Christian my all major traditional denominations (Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, etc.). LDS are not a part of the WCC, for example. What I think is not important, however, it is what Mormons believe and what is accurate and reliable that we can say about that. There are sects/denominations with a long pedigree that hold differing views from the mainstream, such as the Copts, and we would not discount them. It seems important not to confuse readers by inserting positions attributable to Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, the Unification Church, etc. amongst positions established within mainstream churches as if they are the same thing - because they differ doctrinally on a number of key points. That is why it is important to differentiate between the Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian churches/denominations/sects. The Catholic Church, for example, believes what it does based on Catholic tradition and the Bible, Evangelical Protestantism on the Bible alone, Mormonism on the Bible and their own teachings. Catholic tradition has nothing to do with Mormon views on homosexuality, and Mormon scriptures are irrelevant to all Trinitarian denominations. It is misleading to present them as if they have any connection with the beliefs of Trinitarian Christians - LDS view them as apostates, and they view the founder of LDS as a false prophet. Rather than get into the ins-and-outs of that, it is better to deal with them as separate issues. At the same time, it would be wrong to give Mormon views undue weight (especially if the purpose such insertion appears to be for promotion or proselytizing): LDS may be the 4th largest religious group in the USA, but that is just the USA, around the world, Christianity is mainly made up of Trinitarian Christians. Mish (talk) 22:50, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

4th largest in the US and 15th largest in the world[2] sfter 3 other Non-trinitarian churches. The LDS church is convenient to quote because its doctrine is unified and because it is much more international. For example, it would be difficult to say what the Assemblies of God are saying about an issue without extensive research about all of the different groups within the Assemblies of God. The LDS church might significantly differ from other Christian churches with respect to the Trinity, but it is much more inline with mainstream Christianity on homosexuality than the Episcopal Church or Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. I think it would be acceptable to cite Mormon sources in areas where they are consistent with mainstream Christianity. Joshuajohanson (talk) 01:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

(after ec) Strange, I don't recall anywhere anyone saying that the LDS believe that other mainstream denominations are not really Christians, nor is this part of LDS theology. Whether other denominations accept it as Christian is irrelevant since this is not a theological encyclopedia but a scholarly, secular encyclopedia, and reliable scholarly sources consistently place the LDS within the larger category of Christianity. This is why the LDS are listed as a Christian subset in demographic breakdowns, because the reliable sources group them that way. A significant number of evangelicals consider the Roman Catholic Church to not be Christian, so do we not include them? A significant number of monotheists (Muslims and Jews) do not accept Christianity as a monotheistic religion, so do we say Christianity isn't a monotheistic religion? Inclusion in WCC is also irrelevant - the RCC isn't a member. Fortunately we do not use the theological interpretation of one religion for another to guide the editing on WP. The pattern that has been established multiple times over on Talk:Christianity and similar high level articles is that of self-identification and identification according to reliable sources. Look at the second paragraph on Christianity - LDS theology agrees with everything there except the acceptance of the ecumenical creeds. Certainly there are doctrinal differences, but again, scholarly sources agree that there is enough connection between mainstream Christian denominations and non-traditional denominations for the non-traditional to be included in the larger subset called Christianity. Other WP articles certainly don't carry much weight, but the consensus that arrived at those pages do [3].

You can't really say that Catholic tradition has nothing to do with Mormon views on homosexuality because, as you noted, they both use the Bible as part of their source of doctrine. One could make the same argument about the Catholic teachings and Evangelical teachings which categorically reject most of Catholic tradition. I think the only valid argument for not including the LDS may be the claim of undue weight. However, the article also mentions specific evangelical groups that are comparable or smaller in size (in number of members) and that are also not mentioned directly in the article, so that argument is not as persuasive given their inclusion. Given that the LDS Church is the 4th largest Christian church in the US and given the widespread attention the church got for its position on homosexuality during the Proposition 8 debate, I think it is justifiable to mention them in the article. It was included in the list of churches in the intro for a very long time and only recently was removed by an editor who appears to be unfamiliar with how this debate had been settled in the past by a much larger consensus of editors, so the worry that its insertion is promotion and proselytizing would also appear to be irrelevant.

I'm going to try a small rewrite to reduce the explanation to a simple footnote/link like the the other churches listed but maintain the distinction from the other traditional/mainstream churches. If we find that we still disagree, I suggest we try asking at WP:RELIGION or WP:CHRISTIAN to get outside comments from the wider group of frequent religion editors. --FyzixFighter (talk) 01:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not saying they shouldn't be included - but you cannot support what 'Christians' believe by citing some Mormon ruling on homosexuality, because that doesn't apply to other Christians. What you can do is cite what is held in common - what the Bible says, and where things differ (the Catholic church and natural law). But, you can only cite what Mormons believe as what Mormons believe - because other Christians do not accept Mormon teachings as having any validity for Christians. For example, Catholic agencies specifically produce guidance on how to counter Mormon proselytizing amongst Catholics. If Mormonism is included as a non-Trinitarian type of Christianity, then so too should be Jehovah's Witnesses, as that appears to have more members. If we are going to weight it correctly, the major emphasis should be on the Catholic debate, as they dominate Christianity numerically, then Orthodox teaching should have more detail, followed by the controversy within the Anglican Communion, then other major Trinitarian denominations, then JW's with Mormons. Mish (talk) 08:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

By analogy, we wouldn't be able to cite any one denomination for what "Christians" believe since they all have very distinct and separate traditions. Certainly the Mormon position is influenced by their Christian roots. --Cybercobra (talk) 09:26, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

That is what we do - cover the different views of different denominations. So, we don't represent Catholic views as if they are Anglican views, just as within Anglicanism and Catholicism (and Evangelicalism) there are different views - we don't make out the different Anglican views are one view.

I think the JW's should be included, but weight isn't only granted on pure numbers, but also relevance. The JWs might be bigger than the LDS church, but they haven't involved themselves in the debate as much as the LDS church. There just simply isn't as much material on the JW's position on homosexuality. Given your logic that weight is based solely on population, the Metropolitan Community Church should only receive a passing mention, if at all. Joshuajohanson (talk) 16:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Not at all, because the MCC is made up predominantly of lesbian and gay people, so they are more relevant in that respect than churches that are made up predominantly of people who are not lesbian or gay (or homosexual) - there are two categories in the title, Christianity and homosexuality, so a Church that actively supports homosexuality in lesbian and gay people is just as relevant as any that doesn't - whatever the numbers. Mish (talk) 18:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you that it should be mentioned. My only point was that you can't go just off the numbers. You also have to go off of how relevant they are to the general debate on homosexuality and Christianity. Joshuajohanson (talk) 18:24, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

That would be a problem, because nobody is interested in what LDS says apart from LDS (ditto for JWs) - whereas Vatican and Catholic pronouncements and Anglican debates feature in the media regularly. Mish (talk) 18:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I err on the side of inclusion rather than exclusion - and then let the reader decide what is relevant.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 18:29, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Introduction

There is no reference for the claim in the first sentence of this article: "Christianity has traditionally regarded homosexuality, in the sense of human sexual behavior, to be an immoral practice (or vice) and sinful, and many large Christian denominations continue to hold this view, including the Roman Catholic Church,[1] the Eastern Orthodox church,[2] most Evangelical Protestant churches (such as the Assemblies of God,[3] the Christian & Missionary Alliance,[4] the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (United States),[5] the Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod,[6] and the Southern Baptist Convention),[7] and the LDS Church.[8]"

This sentence is highly biased and poorly worded. I will be changing the first paragraph to:

"Christians hold varying stances on people who are romantically and sexually attracted to the same sex. Some Christian denominations accept gay congregants and clergy. These include the Episcopalian Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, the United Church of Canada, the United Church of Christ, the Moravian Church, and the Friends General Conference (Quakers). In particular, the Metropolitan Community Church was founded specifically to serve the Christian LGBT community. Other Christian denominations such as the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints, and fundamentalist (or evangelical) protestant churches believe homosexuality is an immoral practice (or vice) and sinful.

The Presbyterian Church USA, the United Methodist Church, and the Methodist Church of Great Britain are actively debating the issue. The worldwide Anglican Communion has experienced ongoing debate and controversy over homosexuality both before and after the Episcopal Church ordained the first openly gay bishop, Gene Robinson, in 2003."

--IronAngelAlice (talk) 05:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

This incorrectly implies that the other Christian denominations are not accepting of people who are romantically and sexually attracted to the same sex, when in reality it is not the people that are being condemned, but same-sex relationships. Also, since most of Christianity does not approve of same-sex relationships, they should be mentioned first. There is the same problem with the title "Views critical of homosexuality", as most of the churches are not critical of the sexual orientation of homosexuality. I propose we retitle it to be "Views critical of same-sex relationships". We can have another section about views on sexual orientation. Joshuajohanson (talk) 17:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi JJ, One problem is that there is no reference that supports the claim "...most of Christianity does not approve of same sex relationships." Are you taking a global perspective? I agree with your other point that what is condemned is same-sex relationships, not people who are attracted to the same sex. I propose the following:

"Christians hold varying stances on people who are romantically and sexually attracted to the same sex, and gay sexual behavior. Some Christian denominations accept gay congregants and clergy, and do not view gay sex as sinful or immoral. These include the Episcopalian Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, the United Church of Canada, the United Church of Christ, the Moravian Church, and the Friends General Conference (Quakers). In particular, the Metropolitan Community Church was founded specifically to serve the Christian LGBT community. Other Christian denominations include the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox church, most fundamentalist (Evangelical Protestant) churches and the LDS Church believe homosexual acts are an immoral practice (or vice) and sinful.

The Presbyterian Church USA, the United Methodist Church, and the Methodist Church of Great Britain are actively debating the issue. The worldwide Anglican Communion has experienced ongoing debate and controversy over homosexuality both before and after the Episcopal Church ordained the first openly gay bishop, Gene Robinson, in 2003."

--IronAngelAlice (talk) 17:52, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The statement "Some Christian denominations accept gay congregants and clergy" makes it seem as if the other denominations do not. There only seems to be minor fringe groups that do not accept gay congregants, and only recently has the RCC made regulations against gay clergy. Another issue is that in order to conform to wikipedia standards, we need to have both Christianity and homosexuality in the opening sentence. I still think the against same-sex relationship side should come first. Joshuajohanson (talk) 18:30, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed on the gay congregants and clergy issue. --IronAngelAlice (talk) 21:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

There are several points:

• What Christian denominations and provinces within denominations accept or don't accept
• Acceptance of homosexual congregants in relation to an ideal lesbian and gay partnerships
• Acceptance of homosexual clergy in relation to an ideal of lesbian and gay partnerships, and ordination of same
• Acceptance of homosexual congregants in relation to an ideal of celibacy or heterosexual marriage
• Acceptance of homosexual clergy in relation to an ideal of celibacy or heterosexual marriage
• Non-acceptance of homosexual congregants regardless of abstention from same-sex-sex
• Non-acceptance of homosexual clergy regardless of abstention from same-sex-sex
• Acceptance of homosexual congregants regardless of sexual practice
• Acceptance of homosexual clergy regardless of sexual practice, and ordination of same

Mish (talk) 22:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Good list.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 23:27, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The intro should discuss what the rest of the article is talking about. The first part of the first sentence says "Christians hold varying stances on people who are romantically and sexually attracted to the same sex." All of the churches mentioned in this article, and all but a few fringe groups, accept gay and lesbians as members. It doesn't seem like they hold varying stances on people who are romantically and sexually attracted to the same sex. It seems they are pretty unified - love and acceptance - or at least that is what their doctrine dictates. Whether the members follow that is another story. But you can't start out an article saying there is varying stances, but then not present any variance. That should be changed. Most of the text focuses on the debate on same-sex relationships. Since this is about the more broad category of homosexuality, could we have a paragraph about the nearly universal call for love towards gays and lesbians, and let the other paragraphs focus on the controversy? Joshuajohanson (talk) 22:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

original research?

this article has the original research template, but no content within seems to be tagged as OR. Template:Original research says: "This template should not be applied without explanation on the talk page, and should be removed if the original research is not readily apparent when no explanation is given." I cannot find any reason for the template to remain, so I am removing it. Feel free to bring re-apply the template if original research is cited, here on the talk page, or tagged in the article. 71.202.41.107 (talk) 07:25, 24 October 2009 (UTC)