Talk:Air battle of Mansoura

Sources

Are there any other sources for this battle? Most of it is attributed to this site, of whose reliability I'm not sure, and Al-Ahram. I'm asking because none of the sources I've checked mention anything about this battle, and some, such as Pollack's book, which I cited, simply contradict it. Thanks. -- Nudve (talk) 18:26, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

There are, as far as I know, at least two other sources for this article, but they are not in my possession. I've asked other users to make their contributions to the article. As for Lon Nordeen's statement "ten Arab aircraft" were shot down on the October 14 offensive, with few Israeli losses, is not directly related to the article. This air battle did not occur during the offensive; the offensive had ended by the time the air battle began.--Sherif9282 06:19, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Wow, Nice article.. It's nearly the same information mentioned at Arab MiG-19 and MiG-21 units in combat p.43 by David Nicolle and Tom Cooper, but this book said that the resulting engagement put 62 MiG-21s against exactly 120 Phantom IIs and Shyhawks.-- Vagueman (talk) 01:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Please guys add this book as a reference because I don't know how to add it..

David Nicolle & Tom Cooper (March 25, 2004). Arab MiG-19 and MiG-21 units in combat. Osprey Publishing.p.43. ISBN 1 84176 655 0 -- Vagueman (talk) 02:04, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

A weird figure

There's this quote at the end, attr. to Pollack: "...In all, the Egyptians succeeded in shooting down 5-8 Israeli aircraft while losing 172 of their own to Israeli fighters". 172! There's got to be some error there - could someone check the quote's been copied accurately? Shimgray | talk | 00:01, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Nudve added that piece of information to the article. I don't know if its true; its not for me to decide, but I believe Nudve copied that quote correctly. --Sherif9282 (talk) 09:30, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

How odd. The rest of the article seems fairly confident of a figure substantially lower, and various related articles bear it out. If the total was even thought to be anything like as high, you'd expect the Israelis to have mentioned it at the time! Shimgray | talk | 11:46, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

...right, this might make more sense. I've tracked down Pollack on Google Books, and he does indeed say this exactly. However, as far as I can tell from the section, he's not discussing Oct. 14 specifically, but rather it seems to be about the conflict as a whole. (There's a footnote, but on partial-view I can't see it) This presumably explains the discrepancy... Shimgray | talk | 12:30, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

It certainly is odd. I've added a few words to explain Pollack is speaking of the war as a whole.--Sherif9282 (talk) 06:33, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

There's something weird about the whole thing, and I think it might even be a WP:REDFLAG issue. According to the description, with about 160 aircraft, this was one of the largest air battles in history. At 53 minutes, it was also one of the longest. indeed, according to Al-Ahram, it broke (and still holds?) the world record. So I find it odd that it is not mentioned in any history of the was or the Israeli Air Force that I know of. It is evidently supported by one scholar, David Nicolle, who is presumably reliable, but might be a fringe opinion. I'll try and find out more. -- Nudve (talk) 07:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I have my doubts concerning the engagement period (of 53 minutes). The battle only really started at 15:30 (when Nicolle uses 15:15 as the starting point of the battle), and ended most likely under 40 minutes. As for the number of aircraft, I believe dogfights in WW2 and probably the Korean War reached such a number. Operation Mole Cricket 19 involved 200 aircraft in all, and I assume the air engagement lasted around an hour, did it not? --Sherif9282 (talk) 12:57, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

It was the biggest and longest battle between fighter jets in history. The Germans had fighter jets in WW2, but these were not extensively used in combat if at all. ( ΡHARAOH  The Muslim  21:26, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Infobox

I have just removed the 2 planes figure from the infobox. The reason i did so is that such figure is attributed to a source that did not mention the occurrence of the battle. It is just not logic to add a reference that did not mention the subject of an article as a source for its events. Egyptian sources said that the IAF lost more aircraft to the air defense units that day. Also about removing the "in several waves" phrase from the inforbox, that was because of that the info box here is for the total number, and that that information is already illustrated in the article. The EAF aircrafts did come in several waves as well, so it is unnecessary to add that phrase to the infobox, as it is illustrated well in the article. --( ΡHARAOH  The Muslim  13:54, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I added disputed to the figures of losses. There seeems to be enough disagreement to warrant this. - Adam