Talk:Netherlands

See also Wikipedia:Netherlands for information on Wikipedia activities related to the Netherlands.

Foreign Languages

Under the section Language there is a reference to the spoken languages in the Netherlands. The source relating to this is very outdated and not even available anymore, and is incorrect. There is alternative information available in the Dutch Wiki page nl:Talen in Nederland. This information states that 87% of the Dutch population speaks English. Burpeey (talk) 16:54, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to update. Arnoutf (talk) 18:12, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

In the netherlands we only speak dutch dumb ass - Greets a guy from the netherlands--87.209.18.147 (talk) 21:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Seems like a (n implicit) contradictio in terminis such a statement in English ;-) Arnoutf (talk) 22:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

recent edits by anon 41. ip's

The recent "edits" by several 41... IP's are reinstatements of text removed/edited in collaboration long ago. Notable is the orange map, long replaced with the current green one. If the anon wants to make contributions, this is the place to discuss. If not; revert edits as vandalism. (telling detail making it likely the anon ipdoes not aim for improvement but merely likes to be a vandal: the anon inserts a semiprotection template, which, if active, would ban anon ip's from editting this site) Arnoutf (talk) 16:48, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

"Dutch Renaissance"

This link is false and misleading. There is no such article. The word Dutch is separately linked to Netherlands, and the word Renaissance gets the reader to a picture of Michelangelo's David. The reason is of course that no such style as "Dutch Renaissance" exists in Sweden.--dunnhaupt (talk) 15:43, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Population

{{editsemiprotected}}

Incorrect population.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Countrymaster (talk • contribs) 12:04, 28 October 2009

 Not done Please provide a source , and explain what you think it should be changed to. AJCham 12:44, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect population

{{editsemiprotected}} Countrymaster (talk) 09:07, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

 Not done See above what AJCham said. Please provide source if you want changes to be done.  Ilyushka88  talk  09:11, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect population

{{editsemiprotected}} Countrymaster (talk) 09:09, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Still  Not done See above what AJCham said. Please provide source if you want changes to be done.  Ilyushka88  talk  09:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect population

{{editsemiprotected}} Countrymaster (talk) 09:17, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

The current population is 16,715,999.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/nl.html.

This is the only correct population.

CIA World Factbook information is July 2009 est. while the information we have on this article is from October.  Ilyushka88  talk  09:22, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I think we should stick to the most recent numbers.  Not done  Ilyushka88  talk  09:24, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Infobox numbering

Hi, the little numbers in the infobox don't correspond with the numbers at the bottom of the infobox, because the [1] refers to the bottom of the page and not the [1] in the infobox.

Also the translated motto is "I shall stand fast"[2], but at [1] (which is supposed to be [2]) it says: "...,the latter word meaning "to stand firm."" 82.169.112.106 (talk) 21:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

The Netherlands, surely?

I imagine this has been done many times before, but I really can't be bothered to trawl through the archives to see. Why on earth is this article at just Netherlands, when the name of the country has a "the" in it? This makes neither grammatical or logistical sense. U-Mos (talk) 15:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I’d say use your time and click on the archive links – it only takes a few minutes. Searching for your answer is easier and more efficient than waiting for somebody to argue with you about this subject again. This subject has been discussed more than once, as you noticed correctly.—Totie (talk) 00:56, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, I've had a brief look and quite frankly the answers I find are not sufficient. To quote the naming conventions: "When a proper name is almost always used with capitalized "The", especially if it is included by unofficial sources, we should include it." That's pretty damn clear if you ask me, and "almost always used with capitalized "The"" is exactly how I'd describe The Netherlands. Beyond this, directly below this text The Hague, used and reffered to in exactly the same way as The Netherlands, is a specific example of when the definite article should be used. Someone has added Netherlands to the list of "other cases" where the definite article should not be used, but being an example (with no explanatory text) amongst such obvious cases such as a dog and the United States is clearly wrong, and I vote to remove it from this list no matter what the result of this discussion is. The arguments for "The Netherlands" at archive 2 of this talk page are solid, and based on numerous reputable sources, wheras the arguments against mainly fall under WP:OSE, linking to the "rule of thumb" in the naming conventions article rather than the blatantantly more applicable section I linked to above, and the rather mad view that this is directly comparable to United States and United Kingdom etc. Seems like a no-brainer to me. U-Mos (talk) 10:21, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The difference between the Netherlands and The Hague is, that The in The Hague is a part of the name. There is no such thing as Hague, it is meaningless. This is not the case however with the Netherlands. You can use it with the or without it. You also don't capitalize the in plain text. Wikipedia's guidelines seek to remove The from article names when it is not absolutely necessary, like in this case. You can find sources for that on official governmental websites, as they never use The Netherlands capitalized.—Totie (talk) 20:56, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Common usage, though, is The Netherlands with a capital The. I'd go so far to say I have never come across it mentioned as just "Netherlands" until seeing this page. U-Mos (talk) 23:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

"Common usage"? Where? I hardly see The Netherlands with capital T. You'll need to come up with sources here.—Totie (talk) 09:15, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

At Talk:Netherlands/Archive2 (Netherlands v. the Netherlands)#Keep. As I said above, I don't consider the arguments against these sources as particularly strong. U-Mos (talk) 10:38, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

The capital letter is hardly conclusive. The actual question is whethter "Netherlands" is ever used without "the/The". I know of only one such case where this might be the case i.e. in the Royal Netherlands Army branches (although this uage is very uncommon, this is how the Dutch army branches label themselves).

The situation is not at all identical to UK or USA because (1) The Netherlands is not the local language in case (2) In the Netherlands itself another version; the singular "Nederland" is used. If the (archaic) plural form De (republiek de 7 verenigde) Nederlanden is used this is always with the article "de" (which translates to "the"). Arnoutf (talk) 11:27, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I hope the following is not based on a misunderstanding from my side, but the example of the Royal Netherlands Army is not valid because the word Netherlands has a different function in this construct. It is not a proper noun here. So obviously it cannot be the Royal The Netherlands Army, while in contrast a discussion analogous to the one treated here would be about (the/The/..) Royal Netherlands Army.

There are good examples where the Netherlands is used without the article. The CIA world factbook is one of them, while in contrast Britannica lists the country under The Netherlands. So my point of view is, unfortunately, that both forms (with and without the article) are common. This is an annoying matter of fact whenever you have to select the Netherlands from a drop down menu of websites etc. - you are never sure where it appears. And this experience, I had dozens of times. Tomeasy _{T C} 12:39, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

True, it is an adjective in the army name (which is Dutch for all other purpose, but that happens when you allow soldier to meddle in linguistics....)

The listing in CIA and Britannica can hardly be called "use". What I meant is a normal sentence without the article. I have no strong opinion here, but these cases are not as simple as they are sometimes positioned. Arnoutf (talk) 17:19, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Listings are not sentences, but why are they not use? I think these are good examples to show that both Netherlands and The Netherlands are in use - something that I experienced almost every week when I was in the Netherlands. Tomeasy _{T C} 17:50, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I thought you were referring to the entry title of their articles on the Netherlands. But indeed, if they use Netherlands without the in listings that is of relevance.Arnoutf (talk) 21:51, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Both ways are common. That is at least my experience. Anyway, I think the initiator of this section should really back up their case if a change is to be made to the title of the article here. Tomeasy _{T C} 08:35, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

What would you like me to add? I've said all I have to say. U-Mos (talk) 16:16, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I am afraid that this is not enough to move the article. At least, I feel that both forms are in common use, and in this case MoS requests us to drop the article. If you present more arguments, I might change my mind. Tomeasy _{T C} 16:36, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Much as the Dutch version has changed throughout the years, the english version is changing. Indeed the official formal name is still considered to be "The Netherlands" by many, but as you can see by looking at some government websites (i.e. foreign affairs), this is not really the practice anymore. I don't think either is any more correct than the other at this point in time. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 18:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok, there is no strong case that The Netherlands is uniquely used, and I follow Tomeasy that in this/that case WP:MoS should be followed and hence the article dropped. Arnoutf (talk) 18:18, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

The Netherlands is written with a small "t", just like the United States, or indeed almost any "the" in the world apart from the names of books, newspapers etc. Similarly, it is referred to in lists, graphs, addresses, nameplates etc. as "Netherlands" just as you would not address an envelope to "The United States". Dutch people very often break these two rules, but then (1) it is not their native language and (2) they naturally enough tend to be taught English by native Dutch people, so the errors perpetuate themselves.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tdls (talk • contribs) 14:34, 11 November 2009

As a Dutch national I frequently receive mail from native speakers in the US or the UK, my mail address always mentions "The Netherlands", so you are telling me something new. Arnoutf (talk) 20:08, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

No wonder, because then the name is used as a separate small sentence on a new line. The former user Tdls is partially right: the normal spelling is the Netherlands. He also is partially wrong, as far as the obligatory article the is concerned. Ad43 (talk) 12:59, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

To avoid confusion, my comment was is not about the capitalisation of the letter "T"; but about the fact that I never receive mail without either "the" or "The" in front of Netherlands. Arnoutf (talk) 14:09, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

The word "Dutch"

The following text is in the lead section:

The word Dutch is used to refer to the people, the language, and anything pertaining to the Netherlands. The difference between the noun and the adjective is a peculiarity of the English language and does not exist in the Dutch language. Dutch is derived from the language that was spoken in the area, called 'Diets', from which the German as well as the Dutch language comes.

In that last sentence, does the first word "Dutch" refer to the language or to the word itself? In the former case, we should probably change the last part of the sentence into "[...] from which the German language developed as well.", and if it's the latter case, it would be better to explicitly mention "The word Dutch is derived from [...]" 195.241.69.171 (talk) 23:13, 29 November 2009 (UTC)