Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of YouTube celebrities (4th nomination): Difference between revisions

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===List of YouTube celebrities===

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The term "celebrity" is extremely subjective and is branded around left, right and center. This article appears to simply be a list of anyone who's appeared on YouTube and been called a celebrity by local newspapers, obscure websites, blogs etc. (Granted, some are from legit sources, but the majority fail WP:ONEEVENT and have a lack of multiple independent sources to warrent a mention). If a person is notable enough, they should have their individual article. Otherwise, this list should be deleted. WossOccurring (talk) 00:21, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom as WP:LISTCRUFT with WP:SALT, WP:SALT, and more WP:SALT. Gosox5555 (talk) 00:26, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:LISTCRUFT, etc. a category would be sufficient for entries with genuine notability. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 00:47, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:LISTCRUFT and above. Kyle1278 02:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:LISTCRUFT. Warrah (talk) 03:29, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Too trivial for the standards of wp... --Travis Thurston+ 07:05, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The intended function of this article is already handled by Category:YouTube_video_producers --Brunk500 (talk) 08:20, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep
1. WP:LISTCRUFT is an essay. It's not a policy based reason for deletion, no matter how often it is cited. It's surprising to see that all but one !vote in favor of deletion cite an essay and no one cites a policy or guideline (one does not even cite anything). So there is no valid reason for deletion mentioned so far.
2. The nominating user mentions WP:ONEEVENT but the guideline in question is clearly in favor of this list. Since the guideline says that articles should be avoided for such people, a list can be used to include information about them instead. WP:BLP1E uses a similar language.
3. Problems with incorrect inclusion can be addressed by editing not deletion.
4. To respond to Brunk500: Per WP:CLN, the existence of a category should not be considered a reason to delete a list. Instead, per WP:LIST such a page listing people based on a attribute they have in common and to allow inclusion of people in this way who do not warrant their own article (per 2.) above) or where no article has been created yet. A category thus cannot replace the list adequately.
As such, there are no policy-based reasons to delete this list but several reasons to keep it. Regards So Why 17:09, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - One cannot argue that the subjects of this article are notable but I think this would be better served as a category than a page itself. There's no page for Movie celebrities or Music celebrities and I even think those would be more founded than YouTube celebrities. OlYeller^Talktome 17:46, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whether the current subjects of the article are notable is irrelevant (some of them certainly are but only for one event and some of them meet WP:BIO). But the list itself serves a purpose a category cannot serve (list subjects not worthy of an article for themselves but notable nonetheless or list those worthy of an article where none has been created so far). Regards So Why 18:28, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep - SoWhy pretty much said it all. The call for salting the article is rather inappropriate considering it has not been deleted and has survived 3 AfD already. delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 17:50, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Yawn. I agree with the 'category' idea, categories are more powerful than lists. --Brunnian (talk) 20:29, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - As per the nom, there is no standard for what constitutes a "celebrity", and I don't see how such a standard could be developed (even allowing for some gray area that could be discussed on a one off basis). So I don't think this can be resolved through editing. Rlendog (talk) 21:03, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep per WP:ITSCRUFT never being a valid reason for deletion (no matter how many numeric "I don't like it" non-arguments an article gets, the policy based reasons for keeping ultimate trump them), but add references to really notable ones, i.e. those that make Countdown with Keith Olbermann or Attack of the Show, or make a category for ones notable enough to have their own articles. The sources are notable, at least: New York Times, Entertainment Weekly, Wall Street Jorunal, etc. show that the topic has received mainstream attention. We should also keep per Wikipedia:Lists (discriminate, encyclopedic, maintainable, navigational, notable, unoriginal, and verifiable concerning only celebrities, only celebrities from the internet, and per our other policies only those covered in reliable sources). Given that you see occasional countdown shows on VH1 and E type networks of best internet celebrities and the like, a good case could be made for widespread mainstream interest in the phenemona. Heck, South Park had a whole episode on the subject! The list also serves a navigational/table of contentsesque function as well as a well-organized gateway to other blue link articles for which millions of our reader have an interest. Indeed, over 50,000 readers come to this article a month and over 1,000 IPs and accounts have edited it for the past three years! Finally, as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of YouTube celebrities (2nd nomination) closed as "keep" and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of YouTube celebrities (3rd nomination) closed as "speedy/strong keep" consensus clearly supports this article's existence when we take into account total number of participants across an unnecessary four discussions and in multiple months. Best, --A Nobody^{My talk} 21:27, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
this article deserves a space just like any other wiki article! down with fascist wikipedia! every article deserves a page. fight for what wikipedia used to stand for! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.20.134.98 (talk) 21:04, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, but there should be restrictions for inclusion (restrictions seem to be working at Honorific nicknames in popular music), for example, the person has to have a Wikipedia article (not just the meme, but the actual person). If the term "celebrity" is too subjective, than change the name.--kelapstick (talk) 21:45, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I agree, this is WP:LISTCRUFT. I also agree that categories would be better and more manageable. That said, however, I have had probably a dozen proposals for deletion rejected on these exact same grounds. I see no reason to make one exception here so I am voting to keep purely for the sake of consistency. JBsupreme (talk) 21:46, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note I contacted all of the editors in the last AFD (3rd) about this AFD, and a few of the major contributors to the article. For some reason the User:Erwin85Bot, described here has not contacted these editors yet. Ikip (talk) 21:55, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It's a far better article than the last time it was nominated. I can't say that I agree with any part of the nomination ("extremely subjective", "local newspapers", etc.). Every item on the list is sourced-- a rare feature in a Wikipedia article-- and it's hard to accept the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, etc. as local papers. And I just don't get "If a person is notable enough, they should have their individual article. Otherwise, this list should be deleted." If someone is notable enough for their own article, why shouldn't that person be on a list? Some of the delete votes indicate that they think that this is notable enough for a category, but they don't like lists. If you're a vegetarian, that's great, but please don't tell anyone else what they can eat. Mandsford (talk) 22:17, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, looks like it could use some cleanup but it is pretty well sourced. Cirt (talk) 22:23, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, having a line or two of commentary makes the list far more user-friendly than a category. The fact that some entries may be sourced to crap sources doesn't warrant the deletion of the whole thing: editorial action to remove or properly source these is what's warranted. This list, when well-maintained, is a substantially more useful way of browsing the topic than a category, and sources are provided on the face of the article in order to demonstrate inclusion-worthiness. ~ mazca ^talk 22:25, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per over-acheiving in its meeting WP:STAND. Not at all trivial, being a well sourced list that meets the inclusion criteria set by WP:GNG. Not only does this list lead readers to more expansive articles, but it makes an assertion of notability and is itself properly sourced per guideline and meets the requirements of WP:LIST. Essays rarely trump guideline or policy. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 23:03, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Lists of non-notable things or people are by definition, non-notable, whatever the ARS block vote thinks. Windhover75 (talk) 23:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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-===[[List of YouTube celebrities]]===
+*===[[List of YouTube celebrities]]===
 {{REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD|M}}
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 *'''Keep''', having a line or two of commentary makes the list far more user-friendly than a category. The fact that some entries may be sourced to crap sources doesn't warrant the deletion of the whole thing: editorial action to remove or properly source these is what's warranted. This list, when well-maintained, is a substantially more useful way of browsing the topic than a category, and sources are provided on the face of the article in order to demonstrate inclusion-worthiness. ~ <font color="#228b22">[[User:Mazca|'''m'''a'''z'''c'''a''']]</font> <sup>[[User_talk:Mazca|talk]]</sup> 22:25, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 *'''Keep''' per over-acheiving in its meeting [[WP:STAND]]. Not at all trivial, being a well sourced list that meets the inclusion criteria set by [[WP:GNG]]. Not only does this list lead readers to more expansive articles, but it makes an assertion of notability and is itself properly sourced per guideline and meets the requirements of [[WP:LIST]]. Essays rarely trump guideline or policy.  '''[[User:MichaelQSchmidt|<font color="blue">Schmidt,</font>]]''' ''[[User talk:MichaelQSchmidt|<sup><small>MICHAEL Q.</small></sup>]]'' 23:03, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
+*'''Delete''' Lists of non-notable things or people are by definition, non-notable, whatever the ARS block vote thinks. [[User:Windhover75|Windhover75]] ([[User talk:Windhover75|talk]]) 23:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)