Talk:Jats

added info with valid reference !

Hi my username is Aryanjat. Today I added main jat inhabited areas in first para..and some info in genetics section.....with valid references. So I urge everyone that plz. dont revert this as I provide references....If U wanna add more info. than make ur edits in this version rather than reverting !!

Indo-Scythian Descent

Hey, bit new to editing Wikipedia, so I apologize if I'm not following the correct guidelines. I've been seeing the description of Jats change virtually every month. I was unaware of the whole Indo-Scythian background for some time, but did a lot of outside research (meaning not Wikipedia), and it's pretty clear that Jats are descended from Indo-Scythians and Indo-Aryans. Recent DNA studies have also helped to prove this, and an Indian researcher had attempted to visit Ukraine to study the origin of Jats, but was prevented from doing so (I believe from funding denial and ridicule). I've very much found Indians very loathe to call themselves anything but Indo-Aryan - some kind of weird pride in the word Aryan. I was slave to this for some time too. Doing a very quick run-down search on Google Scholar left me with a slew of articles supporting the Indo-Scythian viewpoint, some of which had not been listed on Wikipedia:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/lw5v58gm16723786/

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k3r48177278105w0/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBF-3SWT27W-4&_user=10&_coverDate=01%2F31%2F1997&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1192748881&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=71d7cfb87d376e6c202037335ed6e417

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/gb-2005-6-8-p10.pdf

One article I did not link mentions the Rajputs as descendants of Indo-Scythians - Rajputs and Jats are of the same ethnic stock (I'm a descendant of Pritviraj Chauhan on my mother's side - he was a Rajput); the split between the two was in political/social disagreements (one primarily being the use of sati pratha). There are more links that I did not post. Also, Jatland (a website by and for Jats) has this (although, I do understand that Jatland isn't considered an academic source, it does have some solid stuff there - I found that graph on the site it was referencing, although I can't remember how - it took some searching):

http://www.jatland.com/home/Indo-Scythian_origin

And doing some searching through JSTOR found me an article titled "Notes on the Origin of the 'Lunar' and 'Solar' Aryan Tribes, and on the 'Rājput' Clans." It also supports the Indo-Scythian descent claims. My cousin has also done much research into this, and Romila Thapar's "A History of India" also supports this claim. There are also un-linked references listed at the bottom of the Jat page under "Further reading." Why is this being pushed under the rug?

So hopefully I might have convinced you somewhat of the ridiculousness of the absolute disregard of most evidence pointing to the Indo-Scythian descent. It's mentioned MUCH throughout the article itself, but people keep removing it from the introduction. I haven't removed the Indo-Aryan references from the introduction on Jats, because that would be false. Jats are a mixture of both groups - virtually no race/ethnic group is "pure" or unmixed (except the descendants of the very, very first homo sapiens, whom I'm sure mixed with someone along the thousands of years). This is what I had been editing it to say. Only once did I see this correctly shown - it seems to be an edit war going on between Indo-Scythian origin supporters and Indo-Aryan origin supporters. Clearly, both are wrong, and both are right. It isn't one or the other, it's both. I've seen it devoid of Indo-Aryan references, and I've seen it devoid of Indo-Scythian references (like now). I'm trying to present an unbiased, most-supported viewpoint for the article. Others don't seem to be in-tune with this idea.

Any cooperation on this matter would be much appreciated.

PR-0927 (talk) 01:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

to IP above, clarification on Jat ethnicity

To the IP above, do not bold your text and put it at the top of the page. If you believe that that is true, find reliable sources that suggests that.

Why are Jats said to be a distinct ethnic group? Are they not a Kshatriyan caste group? My grandfather is a Jat, but he's also Punjabi. Saimdusan Talk|Contribs 10:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Jats see themselves as Kshatriya and Jat writers tend to write this. I have read that they are considered Vaisya due to mostly farmers. In Manu Smirti they are refered to as Sudra. There is a lot of mystery around this. Thanks

Hello, where did you find the reference of Jats in Manusmriti, and also where did you find this vaisya theory????Ikon ^No-Blast 18:59, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Article structure

I've started to try to organise the many facts in this article into a better structure; please feel free to improve on it. -- Timberframe (talk) 09:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Jamot

I've removed the phrase "(see article on Jamot)" from the Jat people in Pakistan sub-section because the Jamot article does not mention Jats (although it is catagorised as such). If information is added to the Jamot article to make it obviously relevant to this article then I'd be happy to resinstate the link. -- Timberframe (talk) 07:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

BSP

In the Jat people in India subsection I changed "BSP" to Bahujan Samaj Party; if this is wrong please correct it, but please don't revert to "BSP" without explaining what it stands for. Thanks -- Timberframe (talk) 08:07, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Hookah image

To show common behaviour in a group is not the same as showing behaviour different from that of other groups. Example: Many different cultures play checkers. But a very common rural tradition in some areas in the US is to play checkers. An image of 2 men playing checkers might well be appropriate for many different areas of the world, with possibly the only difference being their appearance (clothing, adornments, whatever). I don't see any objection to the image in the deleting edit summary, although the statement that it is not specific to Jat people is certainly true. There are Southern US Jazz musicians of many nations, cultures, origins, social strata who use the hooka. I support keeping the image.- sinneed (talk) 03:43, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest that any images should add to, enhance or reinforce the reader's appreciation and understanding of the primary subject of the article. The image in question is captioned "A typical Jat chaupal in a village smoking a hubble-bubble (hooka)", but the article doesn't explain what a "chaupal" is, so it doesn't enhance my understanding; nor does it claim to show anything characteristicly "Jat" - the article makes no mention of smoking. Furthermore, some 36% of the caption (4 words out of 11) is concerned with the smoking which appears to be undue weight for a subject to which the article gives no weight at all. Furthermore, the reader may reasonably be misled by this image to believe that this form of smoking plays a significant role in Jat culture. I suggest that the image serves no useful purpose in the article, and may well be counterproductive.-- Timberframe (talk) 19:22, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. :)- sinneed (talk) 21:19, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

122.162.97.233 edits

I reverted the edits by this user and neglected to make comments. The reason why I did this was that "Gujjar" was changed to "Ahir" when the reference stated "Gujjar". Also, the references added either were dead links or did not meet wiki standards (i.e. wiki type pages themselves).--Sikh-History 08:09, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Jatt

In punjabi>> JATT KI TE GHAT KI..YAARI JATT DI TOOT DA MOSHA KADE NA WICHALEO TUT DI>>WE ARE VERY PROMISING PEOPLE,WE SAY WE DO IT.....OR DIE.WE BELIEVE IN THE SAYING:EVERYTHING IS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.177.35 (talk) 06:07, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

"Religion" section

Are there any reliable sources for any of the assertions made in the following passage?

Most Jat Gotras (which also have the most population) fall under the Hindu Jat Gotra list according to various books on Jat History. During the early 1900s four million Jats of present-day Pakistan were mainly Muslim by faith and the nearly six million Jats of present-day India were mostly divided into two large groups: Sikhs, concentrated in Punjab, and Hindu; in accordance with the Hindu varna system the Jats belong to Kshatriya varna. Jats were Sakas (outsiders from India) or republic kshatriyas, like the Khatris, Tarkhan people, Rajputs, Lohars, Gujjars and Kambojas, and these communities are closely (genetically) related to the Jat community.

If not I propose that the "alternative" theory which follow it should be given precedence over it. The sentence about Jats being Sakas relates to their geographical origins rather than their religion, and so, if it is supported belongs elsewhere in the article.

-- Timberframe (talk) 09:00, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I am really not sure. There are conflicting theories. Jatt sources claim to be Kshatriya (especially those from Haryana). Those in Punjab claim to be Vaisya (due to farming). Those outside Haryana and Punjab are seen as Sudra. Where I am not sure, I tend to add all and let the reader make his/her mind up. Like wise some claim, Jatts to be Saka, and others Aryan. The area where both these people come from i.e. old Persia is roughly where old Sakastan was. So I would say its the same thing. Cheers --Sikh-History 09:40, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

OJLA JATTS

With their irresistible might, they earned the name “Massa Getae” from the ancient Greeks, and Ta-Yue-che from Chinese-both words meaning the great Jats” Massa in Pehlavi language means “Great” and the Chinese word “Ta” also means “Great” The destroyers of Cyrus the Great, the scourge of Chinese Han emperors. Who were forced to build the Great wall in order to escape them. They lived but a simple, down-do-earth, practical life. Inseparable from their houses, riding them awake and asleep, the first bowmen to shoot accurately from the horsebacks, they defeated Tamerlane the great (Taimur Lung) whom they forced to become the “adviser” of their crown prince, Khoja Oghlan-A jat from the Ojhlan clan. Born rulers, haters of dependence, quick-tempered, an odd mixture of happy-go-lucky and the sanguinary talents, they adopted but Royal names-all their clan name mean, royal “prince,’ ‘Head’, ‘high’ or ‘chief’. Breathing war and battle every moment of their life, they had no time to mourn their dead. They deliberately hid and covered the graves of their kings so that nobody could know their burial place and it was for this purpose that they sometimes killed the gravediggers and made rivers flow over the sacred graves of their kings. Like the Great pandava. Prince Bhima (Who vowed to drink the blood from cups made out of their enemies’ shulls and to be constantly reminded of their vows, they mixed their own blood with the blood of their dead. Most secular and their open-minded people in the world, their lack of religious fanaticism is reflected in their easy adoption of Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Sikhism, and Christianity. Their coins, too reflect the symbols of practically all these religious of the world. From Ashtavegu to Attila to Akun to Ellok, from Balameer to Basana, from Maodum to Mihirkula, from Hapthal Katariya to Toramana Jauhla, from Ghangas to Kasavan-the history of Asia and Europe is replete with name of Jat emperors and their clans. Jats- The Ancient Rulers page 3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.73.1.16 (talk) 09:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Title Change to Jatt

Jat should be spelt Jatt. It used to be spelt like that a long time ago. Nowadays, it's always Jatt. New Bhangra albums prove this. Such as "sunny panwer - Romantic Jatt". Please change. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sunny19 (talk • contribs) 17:12, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Jatt refers to a Punjabi Jat (often Sikh). Non-Punjabi Jats do not use this term, and the pronunciation is different as well. I believe there is a slight cultural difference as well, because of the Punjabi culture involvement (my family is of non-Punjabi Jats from UP). PR-0927 (talk) 02:01, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Their are many pronounciations for Jat. I use Jatt, with the second t like "ta". Other parts it is like Jaaat. Thanks --Sikh-History 11:32, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

WP:UE. The OED has Jat, "from Hindi Jāṭ". --dab (𒁳) 11:39, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

That sounds fine. Thanks --Sikh-History 17:18, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Opening sentence of "The people"

I have a question regarding the opening sentence of the "People" section which begins: "The Jat people belong to the varna kshatriyas of hindus...". Should this sentence be in the present tense when in the "Religion" section we read that "Today they mostly follow Hinduism, Islam, or Sikhism" and the article cites recent figures stating that less than half are Hindu. I propose that these opening words be deleted and the relationship with kshatriyas and Hinduism be discussed under the headings of "origins" and "religion". -- Timberframe (talk) 11:27, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Demographics - Haryana

The lead includes Haryana as an area of significant Jat population, but the table of population by region doesn't mention Haryana. Is this an oversight in the source material (Hukum Singh Pawar (Pauria):The Jats - Their Origin, Antiquity and Migration. 1993, ISBN 81-85253-22-8), or in transcribing it? If the former, can comparable data for Haryana be obtained from other sources?

The 1988 population estimate is not due to Pawar (1993), it is due to Dhillon (1988). If Pawar is reporting that, he didn't even bother to adjust for his publication date five years later. The estimate is a simple extrapolation of total population growth, assuming that the percentage of Jats has not changed between 1931 and 1988. There is nothing to suggest that this may be realistic, but there simply isn't any demographic data on Jats after 1931, for the simple reason that "forward castes" have ceased to have any official function after 1947.

Of course people today still know if they are from a Jat family, or partially from a Jat family, but this is purely a matter of private family lore and as such not verifiable in any way. --dab (𒁳) 11:19, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Academic and honorific titles are generally not to be used in Wikipedia

I will go through (again) and remove inappropriate titles from this article which some person or persons seem to keep replacing. In general, they should NOT be used in Wikipedia articles. For the reasons, more details and the occasional exceptions, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28biographies%29#Honorific_prefixes. So, I will do this rather tedious chore once again - but if the titles keep getting replaced - would someone else please take the matter up with an Administrator to make sure this article begins to meet Wikipedia standards? I really don't want to get into another prolonged edit war regarding this article. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 07:10, 27 January 2010 (UTC)