Talk:Accursed Mountains

Serbia!

Serbia must be named in this article. Kosovo status is not important, but Prokletije is Serbian mountain, too. There are no question about that! Tadija (talk) 18:26, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

This is the exact same issue discussed at Talk:Šar Mountains#Serbia and Kosovo. - Regards, Ev (talk) 18:37, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Prokletije. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthony Appleyard (talk • contribs) 11:27, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

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Prokletije is better known name of this mountain. On [google] search, prokletije gives 69,300 hits, while "North Albanian Alps" gives only 2,410. The name North Albanian Alps is also controversial and is never used in Serbia, while the name Prokletije is more neutral.Vanjagenije (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

A correction: Prokletije in English language has 30,000 hits[1]; of course, that is still 10 times more. Nikola (talk) 04:36, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, 74.500 hits for me, too. [2]. I agree, it should be moved, is is much more better, in the neutral point of view. Tadija (talk) 18:08, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

North Albanian Alps

When Vanjagenije, Nikola Smolenski and Tadija requested a move to Prokletije they had not included a source on the number of hits on Google for North Albanian Alps.

Here is the number of hits on Google for North Albanian Alps:

http://www.google.hr/search?hl=en&q=North+Albanian+Alps&meta=&aq=o&oq=

The above link produces 244.000 hits for North Albanian Alps. Among those hits are Brittanica and the Albanian Alps Institute. The name (North Albanian Alps) is most widely used by English language speakers.

Therefore the article will be moved back to North Albanian Alps title.

Imbris (talk) 23:08, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, this is a pure manipulation! If You tipe North Albanian Alps on Google Serach, it will give you all pages that contain the words "North", "Albanian" and "Alps", regardless if they are next to each other. If You want to search Google for the exact frase "North Albanian Alps", then You need to type "North Albanian Alps" (with quotation marks). And, if You do this, it gives only 2,340 results (see [3]). While, for Prokletije, it gives 69,200 (see [4]) on general search (all languages) and 8,430 on English language search (see [5]). Is this not a source for You? It clearly shows that Prokletije is the most widely used name for this mountain by English language speakers. So, I'll request the move again, because what Imbris said is clearly not correct. Vanjagenije (talk) 01:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Vanja, please assume good faith and don't accuse of manipulation someone who simply mada a hasty Google search. Nikola (talk) 04:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

• 515 hits for "Prokletije" when we rule out false positive English language websites.
• Also Google Books should be searched.
• Brittanica uses "North Albanian Alps.

Imbris (talk) 02:46, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Imbris, you used Croatian Google, that by default tries to return only Croatian pages. Of course it will find less. Again, search narrowed down for English language returns 30,000 hits[6]. Quotes are not important when you search for a single word, search with quotes returns the same[7].

Google Books returns 320 results for NAA[8], 446 for Prokletije[9].

Editors of Britannica show obvious bias, their article on Serbia even shows map of Serbia without Kosovo! Nikola (talk) 04:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

After all of this, it is concluded that it should be Prokletije. All others are not NPOV, and regarding other members attempts, North albanian alps are history now... Tadija (talk) 19:13, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Why should Kosova's mountain be named after a minority language? Prokletije is Serbian! Serbia has nothing to do in here whatsoever! The true name, as used by the 95% of Kosovar inhabitants is Nemuna, or Cursed Mountains! DiedonD (talk) 17:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

But also Prokletije is in Montenegrin language, and Prokletije is also in Montenegro, or you mean why should there be Serbian mentioned? Rave92 (talk) 17:29, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for making a good point Rave!

Well since you share the mountain with us, than you shuold also have a say on this! Of course! No doubt about that! But people that neither live, nor have anything to do with our mountains than their way of naming our mountains is completely irrelevant wont you think?

Since predominantly the mountain lies in Kosova Republic, and the rest in Republic of Montenegro, then I think it should be named Nemuna/Prokletije! DiedonD (talk) 14:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Our general naming conventions and the specific ones for geographic names are very clear on this issue: the languages & names used by the people who live in the Prokletije mountains are mostly irrelevant for deciding which names to use in our articles. Instead, we use the name the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize. — Please, take the time to review these naming conventions carefully. — See also my comments at User talk:DiedonD. - Best, Ev (talk) 15:12, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Requested move #2

See the above section. Vanjagenije (talk) 01:05, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Bjeshket e Nemuna/ Cursed Mountains / Nemuna Mountains

It doesnt matters how many results does Google or Yahoo gives. If you want to know how is a certain thing named on another country, you ask their inhabitants cause you dont know. 95% of inhabitants call it Bjeshket e Nemuna or Cursed Mountains in English. So we can make it a compromise of Nemuna Mountains. I live here, and belong to the majority of inhabitants that do so, and call it Nemuna. So its entirely illogical to name it after any other source other then the root, which are their inhabitants DiedonD (talk) 17:44, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Well Nemuna Mountains, or Occursed Monutains, exist only in Republic of Kosova! Why would you name it by any other name appart from how Kosovars call it by majority? Prokletije is a name for our mountains, as is called majorly by a foreign neighbouring country! If we were to name anything in other countries as we pleased and not as it is called by themselves, we would really have a total mess in what gets to be called like what! Wouldnt we?!

So remove Prokletije cause its how a foreign neighbouring country calls it, and put Nemuna Mountains, or Occursed Mountains, cause thats how we here, which the mountain belongs to, call it!

Simple! DiedonD (talk) 10:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

See the above section. Tadija (talk) 11:37, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Mountaine is also in Montenegro, and in English, it is called Prokletije, not Nemuna or whatever. Rave92 (talk) 13:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for making a good point Rave! Well since you share the mountain with us, than you shuold also have a say on this! Of course! No doubt about that! But people that neither live, nor have anything to do with our mountains than their way of naming our mountains is completely irrelevant wont you think? Since predominantly the mountain lies in Kosova Republic, and the rest in Republic of Montenegro, then I think it should be named Nemuna/Prokletije! DiedonD (talk) 13:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

This is a double post that I made by accident. And when I tried to delete was accused of vandalism. Im new here, and certainly Wikipedia is far more stranger of a site than any forum I have been thus far! And here are your for thingies now DiedonD (talk) 14:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, and well I am not sure how to end this. Mountain is located in Kosovo, but if you try to prove your point (that it should be how it is called in Kosovo) is very hard as Kosovo has some kind of status like Taiwan. It is not part of UN, so on article Kosovo also counts as part of Serbia, and as independent. Just look at Kosovian article, you have box as UN province in Serbia but also as Republic of Kosovo. And it already has Albanian name which is "North Albanian Alps". Rave92 (talk) 14:23, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Serbia doesnt has a say on this Rave, cause there is not a slightest, minutest, even smallest possible trace of their authority throughout the Kosova Republic. I am aware that the issue is gray as far as certain papers are concerned in the UN. But, the reality speaks otherwise and heres an example.

Say theres a law in Serbia, that due to some religious holliday your not allowed to work at a certain day ANYWERE throughout Serbia! Ok. Well then I can freely record myself working on that day that I shuoldnt be working according to thei juristiiction and constitution, that is not allowed in Serbia, record my 8 hours of working on a camera with a date and time in it, all my interactions with custoemrs and my earnings for that day are put there, put it all on a DVD, send it to the BEST serbian ministry of internal affairs official in Serbia, openly provocke their say on their law on their country, and to make it easier on them, I could also tell them that I would wait for their authorities to come and pick me up in the middle of our capital, on a certain address. And guess what. None of their will ever come!

So technically, reality is that theres only one authority here now, and its a Kosovar one. They dont have a say on what goes on in Kosova. And especially dont have a say on how are things named in Kosova. This is our thing... technically. So in the end, we live here, and we name it Nemuna.

I would be alright with North Albanian Alps, but our mountain Nemuna is shared with them too. Its the same issue with you guys at Montenegro. See its shared, but predominantly its on my country. And since we are the de facto authority here, we get to name it. And thus ours should have the first place.

Thus Im proposing a way to end this. Three countries have to do with the mountains. Us here in Republic of Kosova, you guys in Montenegro, and Albania. So then I tihnk it should be:

Bjeshket e Nemuna/Prokletije/North Albanian Alps DiedonD (talk) 07:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

And I so wish that you had a slighter different name than Prokletije for Montenegro. It wouldve made it alot easier on all of us concerned. DiedonD (talk) 07:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

So what happens now! Anyone? How does the title change from Prokletije to Nemuna/Prokletije/Northern Albanian Alps. The mountain beeing predominantly in Kosova Republic, I think its fair for keywords that should be used for finding our mountain, thus the title should be Nemuna, and then the rest who share it.

Who changes the title now? I know that I cant, cause each time I did it gets automatically back to its previous state! 213.163.113.2 (talk) 06:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Um there won't be change of title. It says Prokletije. It can be found under the both names. Rave92 (talk) 15:18, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Nothing happens now. Our general naming conventions and the specific ones for geographic names are very clear on this issue:

• The languages & names used by the people who live in or near the Prokletije mountains are mostly irrelevant for deciding which names to use in our articles. Instead, we use the name the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize.
• Double or "segmented" article names, in the form of Nemuna/Prokletije or Nemuna (Prokletije), are disfavored. — We use a single name instead: the one the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize.
• In Wikipedia, "Bjeshkët e Nemuna" & "Bjeshket e Nemuna" already redirect to this article. Googling for "Bjeshkët e Nemuna" already returns this very article as its second hit. So, people using those keywords have no problem finding this article. :-)

See also my comments at User talk:DiedonD. - Best, Ev (talk) 15:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree Rave92 (talk) 23:15, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

Prokletije → Albanian alps — Google scholar results:

1. Albanian alps: 7,760
2. Prokletije: 395
3. Bjeshket e nemuna: 34
4. Bjeshket e nemura: 4
5. Accursed mountains: (I used the phrase accursed mountains albania for more accurate results) 1,160
6. Alpet Shqiptare 22

Google books results:

1. Albanian alps: 1,267
2. Bjeshkët e Nemuna: 133(about 20 results are Albanian-language books)
3. Bjeshkët e Nemura: 12(about 6 results are Albanian-language books)
4. Prokletije: 673 (about 200 are Serbian- or Slavic-language books)
5. Accursed Mountains: 2,000 (about 1000 are related to the subject)
6. Alpet shqiptare: 74

Google search results:

1. Albanian alps: 516,000
2. Bjeshkët e Nemuna: 92,200
3. Bjeshkët e Nemura: 50,800
4. Prokletije: 51,500
5. Accursed Mountains: 152,000(about 90,000 are related to the subject of the article)
6. Alpet shqiptare(translation of the phrase Albanian alps in Albanian language): 105,000

Proposal: Different google tools show that the predominant term used by scholars worldwide is the term Albanian alps, with the term Accursed mountains being second. Per these factors I propose to rename the article to Albanian alps.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:14, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Albanian alps? Only Albanians call it like that. Prokletije stays. Also this:

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Prokletije. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthony Appleyard (talk • contribs) 11:27, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

---

Prokletije is better known name of this mountain. On [google] search, prokletije gives 69,300 hits, while "North Albanian Alps" gives only 2,410. The name North Albanian Alps is also controversial and is never used in Serbia, while the name Prokletije is more neutral.Vanjagenije (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

A correction: Prokletije in English language has 30,000 hits[10]; of course, that is still 10 times more. Nikola (talk) 04:36, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, 74.500 hits for me, too. [11]. I agree, it should be moved, is is much more better, in the neutral point of view. Tadija (talk) 18:08, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Rave92^(talk) 11:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Rave92, most sources use that term for example 82% of the google scholar results use the term Albanian alps. Your argument is WP:IDONTLIKEIT.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:33, 7 April 2010 (UTC)