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About me

Essays

Trinkets

Trivia

Visited

Talk

I recognize that this user page belongs to the Wikipedia project and not to me personally. As such, I recognize that I am expected to respectfully abide by community standards as to the presentation and content of this page, and that if I do not like these guidelines, I am welcome either to engage in reasonable discussion about it, to publish my material elsewhere, or to leave the project.

My real name is Larry Pieniazek and I like LEGO(r) Brand building elements. Feel free to mail me with comments or concerns if you don't want to post.

Here about a BLP that's persistently getting vandalized and you want me to semi protect it? Leave a note below, (User:Lar/Liberal Semi is no longer in use) and I or one of my TPWs will get it.
Here to leave me a message? Response time varies depending on where I'm active... Ping me if it's truly urgent, or find another admin.
Here about accountability? see my accountability page.
Note: The apparent listification of the category (it's back but may go away again) does not change my commitment to my recallability in any way

Please read the two blue boxes :).

A Note on how things are done here:

Being a "grumpy old curmudgeon", I have certain principles governing this talk page which I expect you to adhere to if you post here. (This talk page is my "territory", (although I acknowledge it's not really mine, it's the community's) and I assume janitorial responsibility for it.)

Please observe Wikipedia:Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette here.
I may, without notice, refactor comments to put like with like, correct indents, or retitle sections to reflect their contents more clearly. If I inadvertently change the meaning of anything, please let me know so I can fix it!
While I reserve the right to delete comments I find egregiously poor form, I am normally opposed to doing so and use ~~monthly~~ random archives instead. If you post here, your words will remain here and eventually in the archives, so please do not delete them, use strikeouts. In other words, think carefully about what you say rather than posting hastily or heatedly.
Edit warring here is particularly bad form. One of my WP:TPW's may well issue a short block, so don't do it.
When all else fails, check the edit history.

(cribbed from User:Fyslee's header... Thanks!)

(From User:Lar/Eeyore Policy)

A Note on threading:

Interpersonal communication does not work when messages are left on individual users' talk pages rather than threaded, especially when a third party wishes to read or reply.

Being a "bear of very little brain", I get easily confused when trying to follow conversations that bounce back and forth, so I've decided to try the convention that many others seem to use, aggregation of messages on either your talk page or my talk page. If the conversation is about an article I will try to aggregate on the article's talk page.

If the conversation is on your talk page or an article talk page, I will watch it.
If the conversation is on my talk page or an article talk page and I think that you may not be watching it, I will link to it in a note on your talk page, or in the edit summary of an empty edit. But if you start a thread here, please watch it.

I may mess up, don't worry, I'll find it eventually. Ping me if you really need to.

please note this is a personal preference rather than a matter of site policy

(From User:Lar/Pooh Policy)

Following up on concerns about User:Ash's use of citations

Please see this draft RFC/U. I'm not sure why this couldn't have been dealt with at ANI, but since it wasn't I'm following up with an RFC/U as suggested. I have told Ash of my intention to file this, for what it's worth. Let me know if you have any comments or additions (feel free to just make changes). I'll submit it in the next day or so, depending on the feedback I receive. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:11, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The link Dc has provided you where he states he "told Ash of his intention to file" this is incorrect. Ash has not been properly advised of Dc's intent. 207.237.230.164 (talk) 21:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why, how helpful of you to turn up to point this out! What matters most is the notification itself, not who does it, so why don't you be even more helpful and go notify Ash yourself, whoever you are? ++Lar: t/c 01:32, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

</your sarcasm>. 207.237.230.164 (talk) 05:26, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Point stands nevertheless. Whoever you are. ++Lar: t/c 15:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't create the RfC and so it was not my responsibility to notify the subject...who, BTW, has been notified properly now. PS- Have you read WP:WAE? "While having a username has a lot of benefits, editing already existing pages without one is perfectly acceptable, and in fact, is very much welcome." 207.237.230.164 (talk) 17:37, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We welcome editing by IPs. IF they don't have an account. If they do, then they ought to use their account so we have proper context. If you have an issue with how DC set up the RfC why bring it to me? I find your contributions here on my page less than helpful, and not particularly welcome either, although I have an open door policy under which I don't remove comments merely because I find them unhelpful. Your edits show essentially no article space editing, which is what that IP policy is intended to foster. If you want to participate in WikiPolitics (which appears to be the sole area of interest) and you want my respect or acknowledgement, be a mensch, don't use an IP to hide. ++Lar: t/c 19:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lar, I doubt this will come as much of a surprise... Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. ++Lar: t/c 19:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My recent actions and comments regarding WMC

You might have wondered about my motivation for acting in the manner I am, so I am laying my cards on the table. I intend to be considered by the majority of reviewers as someone acting firmly but, within a reasonable definition, fairly in respect of WMC. Once this reputation is firmly established among all but a few editors, all of whom are noted to usually speak and act in accordance to WMC's own inclinations re CC, I can then abuse my flags to remove WMC (a very well informed contributor to the subject of AGW) from the subject area for a minor infraction (or simply make one up) and then suggest that the reaction is typical of that on the previous many instances where I have acted appropriately. It is important that my recent efforts appear both to be fair, and habitually decried as nonconstructive or biased by certain inclined parties for this to work.

WMC has been reacting appropriately, and I must say I am disappointed that you seem to have missed this strategy. Perhaps I should have emailed you before setting out on this strategy. Nevermind - I suppose I can trust you to keep this to yourself. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed I did miss that missive. Not to worry, though, No one will know. Tis a cunning plot. ++Lar: t/c 22:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How will anybody find this out? LHVU has hacked all DNS servers to point to a copy of Wikipedia. Only you can see this text! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:48, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is LHVU holidaying in the East? ++Lar: t/c 03:04, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I told you! Nobody can see this but us! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:12, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please semi-prot Hank Johnson?

[1]

A lot of blogs are talking about a really stupid comment he made regarding Guam, and while there is video it is possible this is simply a well-executed April Fool's joke. I've explained in more detail on the talk page there. Cheers, TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:40, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What specific edits are vandalistic? Please provide diffs. I'm not going to get involved in a content related matter regarding this article. ++Lar: t/c 20:50, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh it has already been semi-protected (one of the reasons I asked here was because I knew it was watched so much). The main problem is that a lot of the edits about this (well worth the watch if you haven't seen it) were being sourced to blogs. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Community sanctions

You're correct[2] in that its my first visit to this sanctions page; I've been active with a few others, IIRC all were ArbCom sanctions, except for the Sarah Palin probation. There seems to be a new level of failing to AGF that admins in these areas are doing their best for Wikipedia, and their utmost to examine evidence given and behavior of involved parties and be fair to all concerned. I also contributed to an instance on Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement (#Gatoclass) and the editor who filed first demanded I produce difs to support my view; when I replied my view was based on examining the difs and contribs in the case, s/he implied directly that I had not "actually look[ed] into [his/her] contributions" and demanded I "provid[e] differences to support the verdict" - and I saw similar complaints on MastCell's talk page, where demands were made of him that he "produce difs" to support his view. This is backwards-think; its not up to the 'judge', so to speak, to provide the evidence, but to examine and weigh it. When did this start, and have you any thoughts on how to educate and counter this trend? Or am I overly concerned with a couple of new editors who don't understand the process, and seeing a trend where there is none?

Btw, I do appreciate the welcome to the community sanctions, and will continue to try to help there when I can. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 15:17, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think providing diffs is a good practice, to be encouraged, but I agree with you that it's not up to the admin being asked to act, it's up to the request initiator. ++Lar: t/c 21:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You do realize that's not what I was asking about, right? KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 11:25, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you were asking if this practice, which we both agree is bad, is an aberration or a new trend, and if the latter, how to counteract it. I'm not sure when it started exactly but I don't think it's been around all that long. I hope it's an aberration, but sometimes aberrations become accepted practice if not nipped. I'm not quite sure how to counteract it other than by saying "no, that's not how things are done". ++Lar: t/c 11:51, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, yes. I had hoped you'd have a brighter idea than mine, but at least we agree on the one approach. :-/ KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 13:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible?

To indefinitely semi-protect naked short selling? It is clear as day that the IP's, likely from free hotspots he found somewhere, are the topic banned user known as "Mantamoreland." TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:51, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Have you asked at WP:RFPP ? You also might consider filing an WP:SPI to have a CU look into the matter. ++Lar: t/c 20:59, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn't heard of RFPP before, but I don't think the issue is one of sockpuppets so much (it may be I haven't looked too much into the history), but rather he is using IPs for a few edits that are pointless (and probably harmful) to ban. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:20, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you'll want to take this to the ArbCom enforcement board maybe? I'm reducing my current involvement to a few limited areas. ++Lar: t/c 21:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I'll look into that, thanks. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sticky prods

Hi Lar'! You participated earlier in the sticky prod workshop. The sticky prods are now in use, but there are still a few points of contention.
There are now a few proposals on the table to conclude the process. I encourage your input, whatever it might be. Thanks. --Maurreen (talk) 07:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the notice, but with SlimVirgin, Crum375 AND Jayjg involved... I think I'll pass for now. I've got enough stress in my life as it is. ++Lar: t/c 11:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Assumes facts not in evidence

This is a statement that you shouldn't be using - especially not with comments like the following diffs, note that it is pure coincidence that this is mostly from a WMC case - i took comments from your contribution list one by one:

[3](no evidence of poisoning environment)
[4](no evidence of "hindering that process more than helping it")
[5](no evidence of any group thinking anything)
[6](no evindence given for baiting at all, or even statements about what Mark was (attempted?) to be baited into)

While people can hold (and do) many different opinions about the validity or the veracity of the above comments [which i'm not in any way going to discuss, or be interested in discussing] - they all fall into the "assumes facts not in evidence" category. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 12:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Suffice it to say for now I disagree. More later. ++Lar: t/c 17:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought I'm not sure it's a good use of my time to rebut someone that apparently doesn't admit they are wrong. Why bother? The science club will deny there is a problem, regardless of what you do or say, apparently. And that's a big part of the problem, how they close ranks and defend at all costs. ++Lar: t/c 00:19, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Throwing accusations of bad faith on top. Is not really helping is it? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 13:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Liberal Semi

Hello Lar, I was wondering if you might be interested in redeploying your Liberal Semi criteria as an addition to the Protection Policy? The process you used may be inactive, but I think the idea of it is logically sound. Since it seems we're never getting flaggedrevs, it might be a worthwhile stopgap measure. The Wordsmith^Communicate 13:35, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you elaborate? I'd love to see the criteria we were using at LS added to the protection policy but I wasn't sure that was workable... it was enough that they were within discretion. I'm game though. ++Lar: t/c 18:05, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't have thought it was workable either, and before now it probably wasn't. In fact, not too long ago, I hated the liberal semi idea. However, with mounting frustration over us not having FP/PR, as well as the remnants of the BLP movement's momentum, I think we would probably have a reasonable shot. I'll look into drafting a proposal to make it happen. The Wordsmith^Communicate 18:21, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rollback?

Hi mate, i have been doing some recent change patrol and came across a tool called huggle whic hmakes life easier. But it says i need something called rollback? What is that and am i allowed to have it? mark nutley (talk) 14:09, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:Rollback for more information. Typically rollback is granted to non admin users who have a good history of sound edits and of not edit warring, because it is a tool that can be misused to make edit warring easier. There is a page to apply, or you can ask an admin directly, as you apparently are doing here. (see Wikipedia:Rollback#How_to_apply for more specifics) Based on your prior history I'm not sure I'd grant rollback to you at this time, I'm afraid. ++Lar: t/c 18:11, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No worrys mate, i did find that request page and did request :-) i suspect they will also say no lol, a well i`ll have to continue to do it the old fashioned way, thanks mark nutley (talk) 18:27, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : XLIX (March 2010)

The March 2010 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 22:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Macai; discussion before CC topic bans?

You are absolutely correct at the WP:GS/CC/RE page that I was remiss in not ensuring that my explanation was posted. It might be buried in the sections above, but I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement#Should always topic bans be discussed here? regarding whether we should encourage or require that lengthy sanctions be discussed at that page. Personally I could go either way so long as we are clear about it, but I would really like to hear what others have to say. Regards, - 2/0 (cont.) 04:19, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should opine again. I feel rather the only enforcement admin there, beleaguered by a bunch of non admins and admins who don't enforce, at least not at that page. ++Lar: t/c 23:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Last time I read through that discussion this afternoon it seemed to have turned into precisely my least favorite type of conversation, full of posturing, hard lines, and people talking past each other (not to mention the classic signal/noise problem). I will go see if I can refocus a bit on the issue of long term sanctions being placed before the moot before or after being enacted, but it is late here and my brain might abandon me before I can write something cogent. I think I can definitely see the logic at least to calling in a sanity check in cases where time is not of the essence, or even encouraging discussion if that will make the probation run more smoothly. On an unrelated note, I think that that section title might be evidence that I need to hang around with more native English speakers. - 2/0 (cont.) 04:07, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty apt summary. Which is why I think hearing from more admins that actually work there might be good. As for the subject line, I was tempted to change the word order but I figured it would break a fair number of links. Maybe I should anyway. For the record, I was not aware you were not a native English speaker, your phrasing and word choice surely don't give such away. ++Lar: t/c 05:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to change it - {{anchor}} will even preserve section links (though I suspect setting the HTML id= directly might be kinder on the servers). I made a stab at Wikipedia talk:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement#Refocusing - when time is not of the essence; maybe we can close down that thread soon.

And thank you, but I actually am a native English speaker :). I work in physics, though, and spend a fair bit of time in the minority in that regard. This leads me to pick up somewhat idiosyncratic speech patterns sometimes, such as a tendency to arrange word order by importance instead of grammar or asking "what means foo". - 2/0 (cont.) 16:00, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If I am any judge of character, you are far too smart to make a POINT of this first point ... How can we de-escalate this? I really do not see the point to most of the verbiage over at that talk page over the last few days, and it is starting to generate bad blood. I am reticent, though, to attempt to close down discussion among long term reasonable editors - do you have any advice? Would an appeal to reason actually do any good in a thread like that, or should I just let it burn itself out and take to heart smidgens of solid advice concealed in the drama? - 2/0 (cont.) 23:15, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not making a point. I think talking first works better. But I am very willing to try not talking first and seeing how well it works. That's not making a point, that's experimenting. Because maybe I'm wrong! Who knows. Those accusing me of WP:POINT seem to be... well... not very collegial. You'd think they had already prejudged that it wasn't going to work. ++Lar: t/c 23:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My point precisely :). But seriously - if that discussion were on an article talk page I would already have requested people to take their drama-llama elsewhere. I am not posting here in some back-handed attempt to make it out that you are the problem or the instigator or anything like that. It simply pains me to see that level of unlevelheadedness on a discussion page devoted to calming troubled waters (yes, this is part of why I mostly avoid ArbCom); you are quite generally thoughtful and clueful, and I genuinely do not know what I can do to nudge that page back towards collegial collaboration mode. Ah well, I am out for the night now anyway - good luck. - 2/0 (cont.) 23:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well another approach might be to not even announce, just start blocking people that are bringing more heat than light to the enforcement page and see what happens. It's tempting. But no. Have fun. ++Lar: t/c 23:42, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know whether this is getting through to you

There is absolutely no way in which an action by an administrator can be limited by the prior existence of the probation. If you want a talking shop, that's fine, but the talking shop cannot pre-empt the power of an administrator to take action on the basis of the probation. Subsequent discussion of the action is appropriate, but obviously you wouldn't want to stop administrators taking what they regard as appropriate action, as 2over0 believes he did.

I thought at first that you were being ambivalent about this, then I thought you had definitively affirmed the probation, and then I found that you had apparently said it was subject to evolution on the page (which would be okay, though it would have been nice to know in advance that what we were agreeing to was in fact, the reverse of what we thought we were agreeing to--to wit, a reduction in administrative discretion under the guise of an express enhancement of administrative discretion).

I think you're bobbing around and looking for tactical advantage on this one. I have the tactical advantage that I'm not. This won't work. It's too ridiculously bureaucratic. --TS 22:42, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree and I'm not sure where to even start but here goes. The status quo at a page is what is done at that page. You can't deny that the way the page operates is that we mostly talk first. The log of enforcement actions proves it. Maybe you think it's wrong. Maybe it is against how other pages do it. But it's how it's done on that page. And it works well enough that I'm not going to push for change in the status quo. You can if you want. You'll need to seek consensus for it though. (subject of course that local consensus doesn't override global once you get the global consensus). Maybe I'm dense. Maybe you and KC are, dunno. Maybe we're actually agreeing and don't know it. ++Lar: t/c 23:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

220 questions, 221 questions, whatever it takes

You're talking at cross purposes here. Let me try a new approach - bear with me, I think this is worth trying, if you'll be patient and go with me for a bit:KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 16:07, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, as long as you answer my questions too. Minus snark. I don't like being condescended to. ++Lar: t/c 18:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Try this first. I'm thinking we need to start with Shared Ground first. Tiny increments. If it doesn't work, then I'll try your attempt. Fair enough? KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 20:10, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. One question for one question, or I don't want to play your game. I've answered one, it's your turn. ++Lar: t/c 21:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My god, what are you, five? No, I was going to try to start with common ground and lead up to the point where views diverged, as it seems obvious to me you simply do not understand what TS and I are saying, since your arguments simply do not apply. But this bullshit of "I won't take your help unless you jump through my hoops" is just too juvenile and silly to even contemplate. I tried; you wanted to play games. I'm done. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 17:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So I won't play on your terms? Sorry, but that is how it is. This is not a matter of my needing your "help" with anything, it's a matter of you being confused and intransigent, and apparently having too much invested in being right. Whatever. It seems to be a defining characteristic of your interaction with me, that you are always trying to lecture me about something, from a position of perceived moral superiority, rather than treating me as an equal. Very immature of you. You don't get to come in and dictate terms of how to discuss things and your continuing condescension is noted. Go try to talk down to someone else, it won't wash with me. Come back when you're ready to collegially and civilly discuss matters rather than lecture. Or don't come back at all. Because your unwillingness to answer reasonable questions proves that you're not interested in discussion. ++Lar: t/c 18:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are wrong about my intent, my feelings, and my opinions. You are also quite wrong about my confusion; I am not confused. You are in error about my "playing" - I was in all sincerity attempting to help resolve what seems to be a complete failure to communicate. I was not in any way, ever, "talking down" to you nor "playing games". You want to stay utterly wrong and clueless about what TS and I were talking ab out; your choice. I tried. Let me know if you prefer not to remain ignorant by choice and will try to explain again. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 00:57, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I calls them as I see them. I see someone quite stubborn and someone not really interested in discussion, just lecturing. Maybe that's not you, but it's the perception I get. I look back at the witch hunt thing a few months back... same thing. You hector but you don't listen. Maybe that's not you, but it's the perception I get. ++Lar: t/c 02:47, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are misinterpreting my passionate desire to be clear, which leads to verbosity and sometimes very detailed explanations, as being lecturing or condescending.

And now I *am* confused: what are you talking about, "witch hunts"? KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 06:52, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here you go: User_talk:Lar/Archive_59#History_and_conflation You were wrong then, and no amount of explanation would get you (or Durova) to stop hectoring me. So why bother? ++Lar: t/c 14:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You must be joking. I cannot believe you are actually linking to the one place where Durova and I agreed in the last three years; namely, where your extreme ignorance and belligerent and bellicose arguing against every historian ever, that somehow you didn't say what you said. That's something I'd think you'd be embarrassed to link to, Lar, not use as some kind of "proof" of anything. Although now that you've reminded me of it, I now do recall that you get so bullheaded that no one can talk to you, and claearly this is one of those times. I am now done with this. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 20:47, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You were wrong then, and no amount of explanation would get you (or Durova) to stop hectoring me. Sorry if you're too bullheaded to see it. As for being "too embarrassed" to link to it. I'm not. But you should be. Not your finest hour. ++Lar: t/c 23:06, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

KC's questions

Lar, do you agree that Admins can block? (KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 16:07, 9 April 2010 (UTC) )[reply]
- Yes. ++Lar: t/c 18:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you agree that Admins can block without discussion (although they should probably discuss if a block is likely to be controversial)?

Lar's questions

KC, do you agree that the page, as it is now, and as it has been for at least the last three months, is "mostly" talk first and block later? ++Lar: t/c 18:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment from Bozmo: as for me I agree but think this is unquestionable a bad thing. Another comment from BozMo: you have said (fairly reasonably) that you will block WMC if he say septic again. So you do accept a certain level of appropriateness in admins making blocks relative to climate change without talking it to death. So what is TS complaining about I missed the first diff? --BozMo talk 07:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Please repeat that at the talk page because it's an important perspective. As for the septic thing, I'm trying it on for size, to see how it would be not to do things the way we have been. So far it's going rather poorly, I think. But perhaps my mistake was in even announcing intentions. ++Lar: t/c 18:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is WMC afraid of?

See, for example this removal. Charming. ++Lar: t/c 00:17, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why should he be "afraid" - as opposed to simply not wanting your input? Methinks you are getting a bit too personal on this issue. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:12, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Those who sweep away some, but not all, discussion on a topic usually are afraid of something. It's much more convenient when everyone's singing from the same songsheet. Methinks you are getting a bit too personal on this issue. Have been for a while, actually. ++Lar: t/c 02:45, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The keyword in your sentence is "usually", the contradiction is your inference is certainty. Or in more plain words: Jumping to conclusions. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 04:54, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The small fraction remaining is usually (there's that word again) explained by bad manners. As for the fraction of the fraction, dunno. Obstinacy? ++Lar: t/c 14:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems you've reflected poorly on yourself.[7] Or at least that's what I heard he said she said. lol. Mackan79 (talk) 05:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's pretty typical of his behavior (I've experienced the same thing and watched it occur to others). Luckily for us all wikipedia welcomes ~~everyone~~ people to work in this lovely collaborative environment. FYI Lar I'm thinking of filing a request for enforcement against you but I'm not sure if it would violate my probation sanctions. TheGoodLocust (talk) 09:57, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Eh? Typical of the behavior of which person? As for opening an enforcement request, if you feel you should, you should. ++Lar: t/c 14:15, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Typical of WMC's behavior. I was sort of joking about filing a RfE against you though (I expect one will be filed against you soon though by others). In reality I've been playing with the thought of challenging 2over0's topic ban since he didn't go through the proper channels and his evidence was rather weak and/or misrepresented (e.g. the first sentence of this response would've been used as evidence for a topic ban if I'd made it at the time), but I'm not sure if I should waste my time with the effort (I'm not getting paid for this crap!). TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:46, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We were having a quiet chat on my talk page. You weren't welcome to butt in. Meanwhile, there are unanswered questions for you on the sanctions talk page: you still haven't backed up your undue weight assertions William M. Connolley (talk) 13:14, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1) Noted. On the other hand all are welcome here and I have nothing to hide. I never remove comments individually, I have better manners than that. You, on the other hand?... actions speak louder than words. But your words speak pretty loudly.

2)Sure I have. Perhaps not to your satisfaction, but that's OK. Apparently nothing is ever to your satisfaction if it goes against what you yourself think, but if it agrees, almost anything is. That may be a false impression but that's the impression I get in looking over your interactions. ++Lar: t/c 14:15, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Diffs are needed not vagueness William M. Connolley (talk) 14:51, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In your view. I feel I've supplied enough information in this particular case, although I do agree that in many cases, diffs are what is needed. ++Lar: t/c 15:21, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I too share your high ideals. I have never removed a comment on my own talkpage. Somtimes others have done so and I have not undone their revisions. However, I am getting increasingly alarmed by your highly personal commentary. I respect you but every time I see your edits in this area I get more worried that you are way too involved on a personal level. This is so very unhealthy that I am getting more and more inclined to take this further. I saw your crazy oppose on a recent RfA and I defended you from the backlash by immediately voting for you on the meta. However almost every comment I have seen from you in the climate change area of wikipedia has led me to reconsider my initial assessment of you as an editor. In my opinion your neutrality is completely blown. I do not wish to waste my time proving this and request you withdraw from the area. I am fairly sure you will ignore this request but that does not affect the fact that your credibility in the climate change area of wikipedia in my opinion is zero. Polargeo (talk) 09:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mentorship?

Do you want to adopt mbz1? That might be one way of moving forwards, but be prepared to have people running to you fairly often. Unomi (talk) 04:02, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mbz1 is already sort of a mentoree as Mbz1 comes to me from time to time with questions and concerns and requests for advice. So yes, I could. If that's a way forward. My track record with mentors is poor though. ++Lar: t/c 04:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Lar. The 48 hours block for for that edit [8] that was made at AE appeal request simply to clarify some Wikipedia policy. There was not a single word said about conflict no matter how broadly constructed my ban was. I discussed Wikipedia policy only. If 48 hours block for that edit was justified, then I am really not sure what my ban is about, but I know I am getting very desperate, and thank you for your help. I assure you, if you are my mentor, and my ban is lifted you will not hear any complain about me.--Mbz1 (talk) 05:20, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was just a thought, personally I think it is best if mbz1 simply stays away from I/P for awhile, I don't think anyone is worse off from it. The 48h block was for jumping unsolicited into an ARBPIA AE request right after being banned from I/P broadly construed, I think the block was justified and entirely avoidable if she had simply modified her watchlist or exercised some self-restraint. Sandstein has been getting a lot of flack from both sides so I think it is a good idea if more admins get involved in policing, as it were. Unomi (talk) 04:43, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That does seem to be how it is likely to come out, yes. My offer stands if things turn out differently. Thanks for suggesting it, regardless of what transpires. ++Lar: t/c 02:10, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to log...

....this at Wikipedia:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Log#Log_of_sanctions. And not that i'm contesting it (in fact i am for a general 1RR policy), but what exactly made you pick that particular article? It doesn't seem to have been in any serious problems for a bit - since most reverts have been vandal/anon reverts. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think I did log it, although maybe not quite right? (perhaps after you posted this?) It's hard to decide what order to do things in, do you log first or the sanction first? As to why that one, I thought that was the article that was in question, it seemed to be the one that sparked the discussion, and the one that I thought other admins were saying needed 1RR. I may have erred, though, I will review. 18:07, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)This seems to have been a mistake by you - Peterlewis hasn't edited GWC ? Do you think you meant Global warming conspiracy theory? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've been reading that page over and over and going blue in the face from doing it, it's gotten so stale. Take a look at Ratel's first numbered point of the request. I've looked at that point's diff a few times now, and... it's not the article he names in the point. I 1RRed the article he named, not the article he gave diffs to. Clearly an error. Thanks for spotting it. ++Lar: t/c 18:13, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No problem - i just noticed the same discrepancy :) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:17, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorted now, I think. Thanks again. ++Lar: t/c 18:19, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also see Wikipedia:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Requests_for_enforcement#1RR_restriction_on_Global_warming_controversy. I think the only useful order is log, then tag. This avoids unresolved references. The sanction goes into force only after both actions. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:27, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you may be right Stephan, log first, then tag. Also, we should stash the edit notice verbage somewhere I think? Here's a link (to the one you added, thanks for that!) so I can find an example later [9] ++Lar: t/c 20:20, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stuck onto the probation page, also with a link to WP:Editnotice. See [10]. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:44, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that! Should help in future. ++Lar: t/c 11:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you

		The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
		Dear Lar, Thank you very much for your time and kind understanding of my situation. I'll never forget you have agreed to be my mentor. I could not have wished for a better one! --Mbz1 (talk) 02:07, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 11:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification Request

Lar, I appreciate your insight on the CC request involving me, but I would like a little clarification here. Two years ago, I reverted an edit by a user, calling it bad faith in the revert description. The user went to my talk page, complaining about my choice of terms. I explained my reasoning (again on my own page) but used the word "vandalism" in connection with the incident. Within 15 minutes, and no other action on my part, I had received a 24-hour block from any and all edits, courtesy of admin BozMo. I didn't question his decision then, nor do I now. I went away, and I think came back a better editor for the emotional detachment it forced upon me.

However, I do question what appears to be a very real flaw in the level of the playing field here. What this user did today to me was so far beyond what I did that words can't express it. A groundless charge that wasted the majority of my day, accusations of bad faith, intentional disruption, insults, snide remarks, which continued even after multiple requests to adhere to AGF and civility. Worse, he vented not only upon me, but upon other editors for doing no more than defending my actions, going so far to accuse one of sock puppetry, and make blanket accusations against admins. He further said he was "unable to detach his anger" from his editing, and that he felt "we both should be banned", which certainly appears a tacit admission he felt his actions deserved it.

Yet no action whatsoever is being taken, not even a request for him to apologize to me (which I would certainly be satisfied with). Now, I'd like to think that perhaps Wikipedia is just a warmer and cuddlier place today than it was then. But realistically, I realize had I myself engaged in even half this behavior against an established editor on the other side of the fence, I'd now be looking at a lengthy topic ban, if not worse. So I'm going to repeat my earlier request. I feel that, at the very least this user should either formally apologize, or at least be prohibited from making any similar charges against me for a period of time.

Thank you again for your attention to this. FellGleaming (talk) 04:39, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

FG: I see your point. But I'm not sure support would be there for more than what I've proposed. The playing field isn't level. It isn't likely to get level all at once, either. It isn't fair. But Wikipedia isn't guaranteed to be fair. ++Lar: t/c 11:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it was a waste of time but I don't buy into the CC sanctions and so will not comment there. This is after dealing with sanctions in the Balkans area of wikipedia, which are far more heated than this CC nonsense which should never have been initiated. What you should have done is grovelled to Hipocrite that you had made a mistake and what Hipocrite should have done was complain on talkpages and not bring this to CC sanctions. However, you do have a tendency as a newish user to edit first and explain later but this doesn't need to be an issue. Polargeo (talk) 10:02, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That was a bit of an ironic joke about grovelling but I hope you get my meaning. Best to appease other editors when you make a mistake. This doesn't absolve Hipocrite from making an over-zealous sanctions report. Polargeo (talk) 11:38, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Polargeo: I'm afraid I am still not sure exactly what point you are making. Would you be so kind as to try again? ++Lar: t/c 11:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No I think I will not be so kind as it appears that you do not yourself extend this courtesy to other editors :) Polargeo (talk) 11:54, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have an example of that? I think I always try to listen, always try to explain when asked. You came by here, have left rather a bit of a rant, and my response is to try to understand what you're driving at. Do you think FG should have groveled more? Do you think H was out of line? Or what? your meaning is not clear. You do a rather unsatisfactory job of making your meaning plain in that regard, but you are quick to charge me with bias. OK, thanks for your input. I will give it the consideration it merits. ++Lar: t/c 12:25, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My input is simply based on every comment of yours that I have come across in dealing with these articles. I am quite simply disgusted with your edits. ~~I will withdraw from this talkpage and not comment further or even follow this in any way but the next time I come across your clear personal bias I will respond to it.~~ Polargeo (talk) 12:32, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So in other words you don't have any actual useful input, then, just a rant? Noted. You may want to look to the beam in your own eye before commenting on the mote in others. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 12:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just commenting on your very personal and unnecessary provocation of WMC. Your shockingly biased and heavy wading in to the extremely minor situation on Stephan Schulz's comment in possibly the wrong section of a discussion added together with several other provocational comments of yours I have seen on talkpages and your comment on the recent RfA I can only surmise that you should take a break. Polargeo (talk) 12:58, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Which RFA is that? Other than that ... boy are you confused. Hard to know where to even start. ++Lar: t/c 16:00, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I find that bringing in new editors helps resolve unreasonable people issues (and shows me when I am the unreasonable one!). Then it isn't just a case of you versus them, so you can also be more detached and enjoy the Wikipedia experience more. Stephen B Streater (talk) 11:04, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stephen: I agree that more eyes often help. The CC enforcement area could use more eyes, for sure. ++Lar: t/c 11:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The CC enforcement area could use a lot less bias from Lar. New editors who don't know wikipedia rules should not be taken to CC enforcement as in this case but they also should not be appeased to the extent that Lar appeases them when established editors report them for what is often the tip of the iceberg. I personally was struggling with this particular user's edits on a completely unrelated article and could easily have taken the case to enforcement myself. however, I am boycotting this ridiculous Lar policed enforcement and will continue to use usual wikipedia methods of negotiation with blocks as a "last resort" to deal with problems. Unlike this silly Gung-ho admin policed attitude to wikipedia enforced by these sanctions. Polargeo (talk) 12:03, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When I have more time, I may get more involved directly. I'm sure this topic will be contentious for a while more. But I have noticed that inflammatory language may only entrench positions. You might consider alternative wording for the above paragraph such as:

I've noticed that Lar is often surprisingly sympathetic to new editors, even when established editors report issues. As it happens, I have found this editor particularly difficult to work with on a completely unrelated article, and was tempted to take the case to enforcement myself. Until this is resolved, I prefer the traditional tried and tested solutions of warning followed by blocks.

Anyway, pleasantness is often more productive than conflict. Stephen B Streater (talk) 13:19, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct. I was being overly harsh. Polargeo (talk) 13:38, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

FG is not a "new" editor. His first edit was in January 2008. He's been blocked twice - again, in 2008. He's got over 1,000 edits. Hipocrite (talk) 13:13, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course. Polargeo (talk) 13:38, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1. My edit in this case not only broke no rules, but improved the article, a point neither of you have managed to dispute. Nor have you addressed that my "ban", that Hipocrite so gleefully alludes to, was for behavior far less disruptive than you've shown here....without sanction. My "ban" derived from annoying someone who lost his own Wikipedia admin status due to such abusive behavior.

2. Polargo, your own edits are problematic in a number of ways, but this is not the forum to discuss it.

3. Lar, I thank you for the honesty. The playing field isn't level; and Wikipedia is not fair. I'm here to improve the articles, and at the end of the day I can sleep with a clear conscience. Those that believe they're on a god-given mission to slant and censor ... I wish they could say the same. FellGleaming (talk) 14:05, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes i did notice

This And i have taken note :), thanks mark nutley (talk) 13:40, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

GSCC

I've updated my report to include another instance of source misrepresentation today. Hipocrite (talk) 14:51, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for letting me know. I thought you said you weren't going to be doing that. ++Lar: t/c 15:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I said I wasn't going to dig through his history. I'll certainly be following his future contributions. Hipocrite (talk) 23:45, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. So this is new then. Thanks. My misread. ++Lar: t/c 01:26, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request

Hello Lar, sorry to trouble you, but could you let me know the process for filing an arbitration request against another administrator, and whether or not I'm required to take any dispute resolution requests beforehand? Thanks. Fell Gleaming^(talk) 04:29, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You might find this useful reading Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide_to_arbitration ... normally you should try other means of resolving the dispute first... talk directly to the admin, consider a request for mediation, consider raising the matter at WP:WQA (if it's an etiquette matter) or starting a request for comment or if the admin is recallable, consider a recall. These are in rough order of escalation of seriousness. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 11:17, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Protection request

Hi there, could you please consider protecting Ibrahim Ali (Malaysia). This is a BLP on a controversial politician that has been vandalised quite recently. More important than the vandalism has been attacks on the article's subject. Because the subject is quite obscure (I'm probably the only editor with him on watchlist), much of the dangerous material isn't picked up: it took over seven hours for this attack to be reverted: [11]. Thanks --Mkativerata (talk) 07:22, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Semiprotected for a month as this is the first time the article has been protected. If things do not damp down after that we can go longer. ++Lar: t/c 10:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much. --Mkativerata (talk) 11:04, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Closed

I closed this [12] but I think that making general negative comments about someones behaviour (whether addressed to them or not) in a context where there is no immediate prospect of modifying their behaviour and where they are bound to see it does come under the widest definition of baiting. But realistically sometimes it may be hard to avoid ;) --BozMo talk 15:40, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK. A suggestion, you may want to say 12 May instead of 12/05... to my US trained eye that sometimes reads like 05 December as that's how we write dates. ++Lar: t/c 17:06, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, done. --BozMo talk 17:24, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am still on watch Polargeo (talk) 16:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks

Seemed to be going nowhere and if anything was blocking people starting an RFC or similar. --BozMo talk 14:31, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Basically it wasn't going anywhere because admins hadn't taken the time to answer the question regarding the scope of FG's previous warning. (ie. was it limited to topic-area - or did it have (as the text said) a general scope. If admins had replied to that question - then progress could have been made, either with discussion of the evidence - or with a close and possible reopen. This question is still unanswered. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:20, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My previous warning for calling a leaked email "leaked"? Kim, if you spent half the time on writing articles as you did on raising complaints against other people, we could shut down the Wikipedia project as complete, as all the articles would already be perfect in every respect. In any case, never fear, as my sabbatical is nearly over, and I shall no longer have time to address the blatant BLP and POV issues being raised on CC articles. Fell Gleaming^(talk) 16:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hooray. No more crappy references. To be honest I will actually miss you becuase I think you are an editor who I can "work with" in the loosest sense :) Polargeo (talk) 16:14, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And though we disagree on underlying issues, I think you're one of the very few here with a sense of integrity and intellectual honesty about your edits. In 15 years, however, you are going to owe me a very large beer, when Dick Lindzen turns out to be correct, that anticipated warming turns out to be much smaller in magnitude, demonstrably without positive feedback forcings, and almost entirely benign. :) Fell Gleaming^(talk) 16:35, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, bait not taken. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ian Plimer

There is basically an out in out in edit war going on this BLP, please taske a look. Off2riorob (talk) 16:59, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have also asked WMC to stop editing the articles of living people that he has a declared citable conflict of interest with here . He is refusing to do so, where would be the correct location to raise this issue? Off2riorob (talk) 17:24, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW I think it has been discussed to death and agreed that his position as a scientist does not preclude these edits. His conduct might at some point but not at present. Meanwhile I will have a look at the Plimer dispute. --BozMo talk 17:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Baiting?

I'm "baiting" Davenbelle? How so? I won't comment on either Davenbelle's or Eudemis' page again after two stern admin warnings (thanks for not templating me, BTW ;>)- but I'm "baiting"? Let's get serious, here, please. Neither editor has addressed my questions, whatsoever. Only admins deserve responses? Are the diffs I've uncovered not only useless, but totally unworthy of comment? I'm trying to eliminate the impression of malfeasance by asking about it first, and I'm getting "stonewalled" instead... Doc9871 (talk) 07:29, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He doesn't have to answer you if he doesn't want to. Your continually repeating questions, phrased in argumentative (and even mocking, in some cases) ways, is baiting. Take your dispute to proper channels. Open an SPI if you are sure he's socking again. Open a WQA or an ANI report, take a case to mediation, open a request for user comment, whatever. But stay off his page. Or else. Oh, and another thing. We extend editors the courtesy of addressing them by their current ID, not past ones. Use "Davenbelle" again and that'll get you a short block. Your approach here is ocmpletely unsatisfactory and it's time someone dealt with it. ++Lar: t/c 10:17, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't care if Jack Merridew comments on my page or not; I'm erasing nothing. Thanks for pointing out the odd double-standard, however, especially as I didn't comment further on his page after being warned (and won't, as I'll apparently get blocked). Sorry that my tone was as harsh as it was, and I know it was provocative; I'll keep it more civil in the future. Cheers :> Doc9871 (talk) 00:28, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. It's not easy (I should know) but it's worth the effort, most of the time. ++Lar: t/c 00:32, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

April 2010 USRD newsletter

The April 2010 issue of USRD's newsletter is now available. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 19:27, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Spin control?

As Nuclear Warfare had already remarked by the time you commented on Cla68's enforcement request, there were severe problems with the text removed by Dr Connolley. I think you're seeing "spin control", not for the first time, when there are legitimate concerns about content, including both sourcing and balance. This isn't a banning matter. I think you have the good of the encyclopedia at heart but you've lost perspective in this particular enforcement request. Tasty monster (=TS ) 04:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do not agree with you. There IS spin control there. I think it's well past time that WMC was stopped from controlling things. But I'm willing to compromise if a year doesn't have consensus. ++Lar: t/c 04:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From my perspective it looks as if you have bought into the notion that those who are known to espouse mainstream views aren't supposed to try to moderate poorly sourced, slanted content that happens to push fringe views. Describing such edits as "spin control" ignores the problematic nature of the fringe editing.

Look, as you now find your comments on the enforcement page being taken to task by both of the other uninvolved admins who have commented, it's hardly as if you need to take my word for it. You've kicked over the traces on this occasion. Not a big deal, you'll move on from this. But for now, there is a problem with your analysis, or at least, with your presentation. Tasty monster (=TS ) 04:30, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Has nothing to do with blogs, really. (I agree about not using blogs as sources, and have. Not a new position on my part) The well sourced stuff was removed too. THAT's the spin control. It's happened before, too. ++Lar: t/c 11:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just so I understand best practices - if someone inserts obviously defamatory information cited to a blog comment on a no-login unmoderated highly partisan blog, but also inserts content in the exact same edit that is purportedly attributable to the New York Times what exactly is best practice? My understanding was to revert first and track down sources later. Was that understanding incorrect? Hipocrite (talk) 12:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, that is not an incorrect understanding. As far as it goes. Your understanding is incorrect in other areas, though. ++Lar: t/c 13:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, you mean in the areas where WMC's motive was less than pure? I'm totally in agreement with you. Two caveats - firstly, when people with bad motives take right actions, the appropriate action is to ignore those actions and wait for wrong actions before acting, and if we're prepared to ban on less-than-pure motives alone, I'd ask that try to balance things by suggesting a wide swath of people whose only substantive edits are climate change related. I'll even co-file a request with you. Hipocrite (talk) 13:08, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In an effort to remove some of the local circumstances that I think are clouding the issue (specifically, the presence of edits by Dr Connolley) I have opened a new discussion of the problematic use of blogs for sourcing within the probation area. See the talk page of the probation enforcement page. Tasty monster (=TS ) 05:48, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Avoidance of rhetoric

@Lar. It's probably best to avoid that kind of rhetoric on these pages. Doesn't seem to help, though I agree with you 100%. It's honestly sad.--Heyitspeter (talk) 08:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps WMC is indeed unsanctionable. I do feel like a lone voice in the wilderness pointing out these issues. If all my fellow admins are blind to it, perhaps I should turn a blind eye as well, deliberately, and go back to pottering about with less important matters. ++Lar: t/c 13:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mean that you shouldn't make the same judgment call in the future, nor that you shouldn't make it on the same basis. I'm just pointing out that it might be more effective to phrase it differently (e.g., more "this is straight WP policy I'm talking about"). If you're bored, you might read this article for inspiration on that front: link straight to .pdf, hosting website.--Heyitspeter (talk) 19:32, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given that I *have* been sanctioned, and indeed am under 1RR parole, this is obvious... Bollocks, as LHVU might say William M. Connolley (talk) 15:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How about "unsanctionable in any meaningful way" ? ++Lar: t/c 20:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A lone voice is better than no voice. I suggest you continue doing what you're doing, voicing your analysis (which I think is spot on), but respect the consensus of all participating admins. ATren (talk) 16:17, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is Lar's judgment impaired?

I don't think it can be Dr Connolley on this occasion, though I don't follow his edits and cannot vouch for them all. On this occasion at least three uninvolved admins have examined the edits presented by Cla68 in the enforcement request and praised Connolley's actions. These are the very same actions that have led you to say that his conduct was "spin control" and "should not stand."

This suggests to me that your own judgement may be impaired in this instance. Not a big deal, but you should probably take it as a warning sign. If I were you I'd probably reevaluate the evidence in the light of the external comments. What may appear to you as "spin control" (whatever that term may mean to you) may have a quite innocent explanation, as seems to be the case here. Perhaps you find that the external comments themselves look like spin control, in which case perhaps it may be that your understanding of meaning of the term, and its applicability to our policies, is the point of failure. Tasty monster (=TS ) 14:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And perhaps the other admins are wrong. That's always a dangerous view to hold for down that road lies The Truth... so I am aware of the precipice... ++Lar: t/c 14:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course you could be right and all the others could be wrong. Here is how I propose you should resolve this. I think the matters you raise are so obviously beyond the competence of the probation that you have to take your evidence to the Arbitration Committee and ask them to open a case concerning Dr Connolley's editing. --TS 15:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Perhaps we are wrong, I cannot deny the logical possiblity. But at 7-1 against you I think declaring everyone else to be a clique of WMC defenders is in danger of making you look like there is some issue of your judgement not just about WMC but about the wider world, aside from it being not assuming good faith about seven uninvolved admins. You may be seeing patterns we cannot see because we have not seen enough of the past. But at least please don't blame everyone else for that. --BozMo talk 15:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They laughed at Galileo. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown (no relation) William M. Connolley (talk) 15:54, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Usually attributed to Sagan, Broca's Brain (1980). --TS 16:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

BozMo, another possibility is that admins don't want to oppose WMC, because when they do they get bombarded by accusations of bias and involvement, as Lar has here. I have personally witnessed admins who tried to sanction WMC, but were rebuked so strongly that they withdrew entirely. And if we're talking about pure numbers here, why not count how many enforcement requests WMC has received (about a dozen now), and from how many different respected editors (probably half a dozen)? ATren (talk) 16:29, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ATren, I note that you yourself bombarded User:2over0 with repeated requests that he cease taking action in the probation area, in part because he did not support proposals for strong sanctions against the very same vested user, William M. Connolley. [13] [14]. That alone seems to be good evidence that an admin is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. Since 2over0 clearly wasn't unduly discouraged by your repeated application of pressure, why should a whole heap of other admins be afraid of pressure in the other direction? --TS 16:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lar hasn't been nearly as active as 2/0, especially in terms of actual enforcement, yet he has received much more grief for participating in a way that is critical of WMC. So your argument doesn't hold water simply because the magnitude of backlash is so much stronger against Lar (and LHvU, for that matter). And FWIW, I have personally witnessed cases where other admins were hounded off enforcement against WMC (two in particular stand out, off the top of my head). Even Lar, an experienced admin who would never be accused shying away from tough topics, has expressed reservations about his continued activity here after the barrage of criticism he's received. If someone as established as Lar can be hounded so much for criticizing WMC, what hope does a lesser known admin have? (and again, I'll stress, I have seen it personally) ATren (talk) 19:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per sae, criticising WMC is fine. I am not sure people get hounded for it, although I have come to expect strong disagreement from WMC himself and I am sure WMC often deserves some criticism (as do I and most other people to varying degrees). But I am also concerned that Lar drifts into personal language and a battleground characterisation of participants in a way which tends to entrench rather than break down barriers at times. This is clearly counterproductive and self perpetuating. So lets all cool it a bit. --BozMo talk 19:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per Stamped Addressed Envelope? @AT: Lar gets crit for being badly biased because he is. And for all his wilting-violet oh-its-all-too-much it hasn't actually stopped him commenting, and is about as convincing as your "I'm not a skeptic". And your unnamed admins are about as convincing as the legions of unnamed excellent editors who have been driven away from GW articles whose names just happen to have slipped your mind, too William M. Connolley (talk) 19:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WMC, always a pleasure. Was there anything you wanted to acknowledge you could have done better in any way in this latest kerfluffle? Or ever? Just curious, since you are so quick to criticize others. ++Lar: t/c 20:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Come on Lar, you can do better than this. This latest kerfuffle is entirely pointless. As already said on the probation page, the incident was already *over* when Cla decided to indulge himself, and you made your truely absurd attack on me by asking for a 1 year ban. And now you're complaining about me criticising people? Look in a mirror old fruit William M. Connolley (talk) 20:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WMC: You know my name. You do not, by all appearances, consider me your friend. Therefore: do not call me "old fruit" again. My question stands, though. What exactly do you acknowledge you do wrong? If anything? ++Lar: t/c 20:37, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do many things wrong. Asking so open ended a question invotes a long list. For example, I assumed for far too long that you would be reasonable ni these matters - that was clearly an error on my part. So now your turn for a question: you "admit your biases" so you say. OK: what exactly are these biases that you own up to? William M. Connolley (talk) 09:49, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do not believe that either of you think that anything positive can come out of this exchange and so I invite you both to stop without worrying about who has the last word. --BozMo talk 09:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On biases

I don't think Lar would deny his biases. He is open about his perception that there is an imbalance of some sort, and he has repeatedly referred to a wish to "level the playing field". He has opined on the shape the content should take, in particular arguing that global warming is not primarily a scientific subject and that the main article global warming should nt deal primarily with the science. At other times he alleges abusive conduct in pursuit of the ownership of articles by a clique. That few other uninvolved admins have expressed agreement with this perception suggests that it is off the mainstream for Wikipedia, though of course it could still be valid.

There's nothing wrong with having those opinions and sharing them. It's all about how they are expressed. A battleground mentality of the kind Lar seems to suggest exists cannot be dismantled by further saber-rattling. --TS 19:49, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Or, it may be the case that other uninvolved admins (such as myself) recognize that global warming coverage on Wikipedia is a total mess, and we want to stay as far away from it as possible. The Wordsmith^Communicate 20:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(to WS I think? ++L) Actually, that's the most intelligible thing I've read on Wikipedia all day. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Intelligible but not particularly well researched. Wikipedia's global warming coverage is of exceptionally high quality and has attracted praise from experts in the field. --TS 20:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the belated reply, this discussion seems to have gotten lost in later threads. The articles themselves are of generally high quality, but a quick peek behind the scenes of any of the main ones is horrific. The Talk: and Wikipedia: namespace pages related t climate change are completely absurd, and I shudder when I think about getting involved in discussions there. So do many other prominent editors. The Wordsmith^Communicate 01:54, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wordsmith: You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and you are amenable to changing your views when circumstances warrant, I've seen that several times now, and I clearly misjudged you at first. I'd encourage you to try a turn in the barrel. It is quite enlightening. Although that may not be a good thing if you're idealistic about the project. ++Lar: t/c 20:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Lar, coming from you that means quite a lot to me. The Wordsmith^Communicate 01:54, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(to WS I think? ++L) If you have anything constructive to say, feel free to say it (though here isn't the place). If all you want to do is snipe from the sidelines, then please don't William M. Connolley (talk) 20:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WMC: You are welcome here, as are all who wish to discourse with me. However you are not welcome to admonish my other guests. Please don't do it again. ++Lar: t/c 20:36, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think Lar would deny his biases - I don't believe this. Lar persists in his implausible assertion that he is "uninvolved". No-one believes this, apart from the skeptics, who benefit from him. He has opined on the shape the content should take - yes indeed; and yet still clings to the I-haven't-edited-so-I'm-uninvolved. That is dishonest William M. Connolley (talk) 20:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do not deny my biases. We all have biases. And yet, I nevertheless am uninvolved. That's not dishonest. Your tactics are, though. ++Lar: t/c 20:50, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lar, do yourself a favour, quit the cc articles. Your wasting your time mate. mark nutley (talk) 21:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to Guettarda's spamming

Do you think you could stop making repetitive and unresponsive comments like the series that goes "How many times are you going to toss this one at the wall before you realize it doesn't stick?" here? [15] This makes the atmosphere much worse. --TS 16:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I should have responded to Guettarda's repetitive and unresponsive comments a different way, yes. But the point stands. He and Hip took something I quickly acknowledged as incorrect, and bludgeoned me with it, over and over. Tiresome. And a standard tactic, it seems. ++Lar: t/c 17:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dude, the comment is still there. You haven't withdrawn it. It's still the basis of your argument for a topic ban. As is your false claim that there's some sort of a conspiracy. You repeatedly make these false claims. You backtrack a little when people push you, but you never withdraw the claims. You're trying to have it both ways. And that's the root of the problem. Guettarda (talk) 17:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you want it explicitly struck instead of responded to a mere two lines below? Yeesh. ++Lar: t/c 18:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PS, please provide a cite for where I assert there's a "conspiracy". ++Lar: t/c 18:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You've made allegations concerning a group of enablers who have worked together in some way to defend an abusive editor and prevent him being sanctioned appropriately. That is a conspiracy, at least in the usual understanding of the word, --TS 19:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You and I "work together in some way" to make the encyclopedia better. We achieve this by hanging out on the same pages and by happening to have similar views, and similar approaches (in certain matters). Yet we are not co-conspirators by any stretch of the imagination. ++Lar: t/c 20:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quite so. An agreement to work towards a legitimate goal with legitimate means is not a conspiracy. But here you allege that unnamed "enablers" are working together to further an illegitimate goal, the abuse of Wikipedia, by illegitimate methods, blindly opposing sanctions against abusive editors among their number. That's why the word conspiracy is used. --TS 20:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I never said they were working together by illegitimate means or methods, or toward an illegitimate goal. I have every confidence that the members of the cadre have nothing other than the loftiest of intentions. In fact, perhaps they are right, and the ends justify the means. AGW is a huge threat to mankind as a whole and perhaps my standing in this cadre's way, of trying to stop spin control, of insisting on adherence to the principles I thought this project was founded on as I see them, is actually doing humanity some small (miniscule to be frank, I don't delude myself on that score) disservice. Certainly our politicians don't seem to be taking the problem seriously enough. Deniers who may be lurking here... please realize I mean that very sincerely, without a trace of sarcasm. ++Lar: t/c 20:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like an unnecessarily contorted parsing of the meaning of the word "illegitimate", though I don't doubt the sincerity of your feelings. I think we've both made our opinions on the meaning of the term known well enough now so I'll leave it there. --TS 20:53, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's not supposed to be contorted. I'm just trying to clarify that I don't consider that cadre to be working toward what they feel is an "illegitimate" goal. And sometimes I wonder a bit if suppression of dissenting views might actually be for the best in this matter. In which case I should get out of the way. ++Lar: t/c 20:30, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think their point was that this error undermined your reasoning, but if they also spammed I can understand your frustration. It's a fact that I'm sure you yourself would acknowledge, though, that the standards of conduct expected of you are higher. --TS 17:45, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Than Guettarda? Why? Be specific. Warning: it's a trap! ++Lar: t/c 18:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly you're engaged as an uninvolved administrator, working solely to improve the situation in the probation area. Making edits that make relations worse, and being seen to do so, has cascade effects. Secondly you're an exceptionally highly trusted editor, holding checkuser rights which are suspended during your term as ombudsman. What you do and say matters more and has greater effect, so the effect of any bad behavior is magnified. As far as I'm aware neither of these conditions applies to Guettarda or Hipocrite. Oh what they do does matter, of course, and for abusive actions they can be sanctioned. But how you conduct yourself does make more difference. --TS 19:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK. ++Lar: t/c 20:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers

The Barnstar of Integrity

		The Barnstar of Integrity
		I couldn't find the brass balls barnstar. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can only agree that the giver represents a fair assessment of the integrity of your work here William M. Connolley (talk) 22:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Typical. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:54, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Don't let him rattle you. ++Lar: t/c 00:18, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; I'm not rattled. In fact, I was delighted that WMC has once again demonstrated not only the caliber of his character, but also that of his supporters. Every such demonstration may not promote self-enlightenment, but hopefully it'll illuminate others. TheGoodLocust (talk) 00:41, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WMC, how thoughtful of you to share your views. It's always a pleasure interacting with you. ++Lar: t/c 00:18, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What would you think about something like this?

I'm sure you can't imagine which articles I think it might apply to. Systemic Unreliability tag. Thparkth (talk) 12:09, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It violates Wikipedia:No disclaimers in articles, as it is not temporary. Hipocrite (talk) 12:20, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it does, because it does not "duplicate the information at one of the five standard disclaimer pages". Thparkth (talk) 12:28, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Wikipedia makes no guarantee of validity" seems to cover what this is saying, albeit in far far less detail. However I think you could make a case that it's temporary (that is, until the problem with editing is fixed) or ought to be. I like the idea here but don't know if it's workable. ++Lar: t/c 14:53, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The situation described in the current version of the template is an irretrievable breakdown of Wikipedia's processes. In such a case, where all appropriate paths of dispute resolution have been tried and failed, the next step is not to place a template (which cannot possibly remedy the problem) but to go to arbitration.

If there are severe enough content problems once the Committee has accepted the case, they can pass an injunction, for instance, to have the article stubbed down and protected pending resolution of the case.

If the content is severely compromised, in other words, there is never likely to be a genuine need to put up a hand-wringing template of that kind. Tasty monster (=TS ) 16:37, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure you're right for the most part, but you have a lot more faith in the arbitration process than I do. Thparkth (talk) 16:47, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think I agree with Tony's analysis. Thparkth: your point is well taken, but if the arbitration process is malfunctioning to the point that we can't use it at all, the project itself is probably irretrievably broken. In which case, forking to rescue the content may be the only alternative. While I think improvement in the arbitration process is possible, I don't think it's come to that by any means. Rather, I think recent ArbComs have been getting better. ++Lar: t/c 18:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Both your comments and Tony's are well-taken. I'm afraid that with regard to some articles, the project itself is irretrievably broken. Does anyone really doubt that there is a systemic problem with reliability in highly contentious topic areas? I find myself concluding that the Wikipedia model simply cannot produce good quality, balanced articles in these cases. I'm not seriously proposing that my disclaimer should be used, but to my mind it's an interesting possibility. Thparkth (talk) 19:21, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

" the Wikipedia model simply cannot produce good quality, balanced articles in these cases" Perhaps it cannot. Case in point, the many BLP horrors we still have... ++Lar: t/c 20:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I dunno. I think that the global warming article is an example of exactly the opposite - a case where the Wikipedian model has produced quality content on a highly contentious topic. The article has been repeatedly assessed by reputable external reviewers as being of excellent quality. I do agree that a lot of the sub-articles, and BLPs in particular, suffer from serious problems, but I guess I see the glass as half-full. I'm usually impressed at Wikipedia's actual content on high-profile, controversial topics, particularly considering that it was generated by near-anarchic pseudonymous online interaction. For example, our articles on both John McCain and Barack Obama were in remarkably good shape around election time in 2008, considering the amount of political investment in the subjects. Anyhow... MastCell ^Talk 20:51, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." -Daniel J. Boorstin TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:28, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I quite agree. That's sort of what I've been trying to get at: there's this persistent illusion that the climate-change articles reflect terribly on Wikipedia. But that's demonstrably not the case. MastCell ^Talk 05:13, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think most of the critics of the AGW area of Wikipedia agree that the problem is the way that BLPs of AGW-related people get treated and the way editors, including newbies, are treated on the talk pages of the AGW articles when they try to advocate any changes to article content. Cla68 (talk) 05:28, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you that the BLPs are a substantial problem. I'm very uncomfortable whenever controversies are prosecuted through the BLPs of involved parties. MastCell ^Talk 19:54, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

MastCell: The ends don't justify the means. Even if the entire AGW topic area were perfect in every way, the process by which it got that way (as Cla highlights) would be totally unacceptable. ++Lar: t/c 10:27, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The ends don't justify the means" is useful as a starting point for a nuanced discussion, rather than as a thought-terminating cliché. Most thinking people recognize qualified instances where the ends do justify the means; I know that you're among them. In any case, I don't think the environment at present is conducive to nuanced discussion, and I wasn't making any sort of comment about the means. There's a general unwillingness to concede that the end result has been favorably reviewed by reputable external sources, despite ample and oft-cited documentation. If we can't even get that far, then I doubt we'll be able to tackle the means in any substantial way. MastCell ^Talk 19:50, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Told you

Remember this

You are more than likely right stephan, and i suppose this is what i will have to do as it is now obvious that WMC can say and do what he wants and if i complain about it i am the one who is punished, it`s just a waste of my time mark nutley (talk) 15:13, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that's how it is supposed to work. ++Lar: t/c 22:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps not lar, but that is the way it is working, the majority of editors who have made complaints against wmc have been sanctioned, not him. I give up on it, i`m just ignoring him from now on mark nutley (talk) 22:18, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

And what happens, wmc gets taken to enforcement, and it is to be me who is punished. [16], Fuck this probation. There was no BLP violation, it is a smokescreen to hide the fact the wmc broke his restrictions again The source might not have been the right one, i had it sourced to the New york Times as well. I must have left the blog link in by mistake when i moved the article to mainspace. So again he walks off scot free, and i`m the fucking whipping boy? Great place this mark nutley (talk) 19:27, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Pardon me for reformatting for readability) I can see why you are frustrated. I am frustrated as well for different but related reasons. But you have to give them no openings whatever, your conduct and your sourcing must be perfect. That's the way it is. Or else, you may have to take your own advice...

do yourself a favour, quit the cc articles. Your wasting your time mate. mark nutley (talk) 21:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I hope it has not come to that. ++Lar: t/c 20:27, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Take a look at this and guess were i currently stand [17] mark nutley (talk) 20:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mark, I've told you this before and I'll tell you again: when WMC does it, he's defended, but when you do it, it's sanctioned. That's just the way it is right now. We are trying to change this, "level the playing field" as Lar has put it, but until that point, you have to perfect. Righteous indignation will only get you banned. Honestly, I'd much rather see you stop editing entirely if you can't accept this fact, because if you continue to respond angrily you will get banned, fair or not. At least if you quit now, you have the option of returning in a few months if things get better. ATren (talk) 21:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What he said. Also, this is an article about a blog. Is that blog really notable enough to even warrant an article? If it is, should most of the sources be other blogs? I find myself more in agreement with those removing sources than I do with those adding more blogs. Regardless of what I might think of the methods (wholesale may not be the best approach in every case... but here it may well be). Pick your battles. This is a blog. Is it worth leaving in a huff over? ++Lar: t/c 21:21, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How about someone actually advised Mark when he is crossing the lines? Why is it people that Mark doesn't trust that have to tell him that his sourcing is substandard? Or have to inform him when he is breaking his 1RR restriction?[18] (no - i am not calling for sanctions - i believe Mark was excited and made a blunder)

The basis here is that Mark is making all sorts of bad decisions and apparently no one he trusts is telling him - instead they are projecting the faults onto WMC or what ever un-level playing field that is perceived... Thats not good - and Mark is (quite unfairly) suffering for it.

It is my (unfortunate) opinion that if no one is taking Mark under their wings, and help him gain his feet on Wikipedia, then it will end bad for Mark. He is simply making too many problems for himself. He is a newbie - help him for gods sake. And that doesn't mean stroking his perceptions of unfairness, but instead telling him the rules and guides. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And if i may point out a place to start: Please explain to him why this was a rather clearcut 1RR violation, since quite apparently he doesn't understand what a revert is - and doesn't trust me to tell him[19], i even made it rather clear what the partial revert was. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Two responses: (1) I have counseled Mark, particularly when he is responding badly to baiting, but I do have a life outside of Wikipedia you know. Sometimes I won't check in for a few hours and when I come online it's already a full blown conflict. (2) Why don't you do the same for WMC? ATren (talk) 04:16, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Kim, I have to ask, many of the sources you removed here and here are good sources. Why didn't you remove the bad sources and make the wording more NPOV instead of blanking the whole thing? Remember you did the same thing at Lawrence Solomon and got called on it by an uninvolved editor from the BLP Noticeboard. Why are you still engaged, not only in the same behavior, but trying to justify it for others also? Cla68 (talk) 04:45, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cla68, since this is not the forum for content discussion - let me just say (although it should be unneccessary): i disagree with your assessment. And i find your comment to be non constructive, and notice that you did exactly what i was worried about (projection unto others), instead of the right thing (advicing about what was the problem (1RR)). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 05:56, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're shooting the messenger, at best. If not "projecting" yourself. Why not address the issues raised about your own behavior before hectoring others? ++Lar: t/c 10:28, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent advice. Why don't you take it? William M. Connolley (talk) 10:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WMC, how thoughtful of you to share your views. It's always a pleasure interacting with you. Was that your "obligatory snark" for the day or is there more coming? As for the advice, you are far more in need of taking it than I. As you'd well know if you had even a shred of introspective ability. Tend to the beam in your eye before commenting on the mote in others. ++Lar: t/c 10:42, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See? It just bounces off. You won't listen, even to your own advice. And you can't resist being snarky William M. Connolley (talk) 11:18, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WMC, how thoughtful of you to share your views. It's always a pleasure interacting with you.... I see that wasn't all of your obligatory snark for the day after all, was it? Did you have any substantive contribution, then? I won't tell you what you told me the other day ("butt out") because that would be rude. But it would be nice if Kim answered the questions directed at Kim. ++Lar: t/c 11:45, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lar, how thoughtful of you to share your views. It's always a pleasure interacting with you.... I see that wasn't all of your obligatory snark for the day after all, was it? Did you have any substantive contribution, then? (I see you're fond of pointless repetition so I thought you might like some near-repetition). Butt out? No, I don't recall that - doesn't sound like me, sounds more like you - are you projecting? William M. Connolley (talk) 11:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake, it was "butt in" rather than "butt out". Not much substantive difference really.

Seems different to me. Your lack of interest in accuracy is noted. Please don't put things-that-aren't-quotes in quotes William M. Connolley (talk) 13:32, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Close enough to the same thing for me. But that's not evidence of any lack of interest in accuracy, so you may want to revise your notes. ++Lar: t/c 16:21, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, Lar - i'm not shooting the messenger - nor am i unwilling to discuss my "own behaviour", when and if it becomes necessary or pertinent; but i don't really think that this is the forum for such. I will make one short comment though: It is not the URL that determines whether a reference is a reliable source, or determines whether the content matches the text or whether text is presented with due weight. Don't you agree?

The sad thing here though, is that Mark still hasn't been informed that he was in breach of 1RR by someone he trusts. He is still getting the basic message "Oh, you are doing allright - nothing to worry about - its all the others that are a problem - not you."; If no one is going to inform Mark about what constitutes a revert and what doesn't - how is he going to learn? Who exactly is it that is shooting the messenger? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 12:29, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mark needing mentoring is a valid point but you're still not answering Cla's concerns. ++Lar: t/c 13:23, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cla's "concerns" have been and are being addressed at the talk page of that particular article, which is the appropriate venue. They have been so for quite a long time. Did you miss that? Ponder a bit about my comment regarding judgement, based upon just looking on the URL of a reference, as to being a poor guideline for the merit, veracity and weight of a particular piece of information. I've raised this before - admins in this particular topic area are looking too much at the surface of things (URL) as opposed to the context (what is the article about, is it due weight, does it present things neutrally, is it puffing up information to a level that the references can't support .... etc etc.). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 13:43, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So.... Cla and ATren. Are you going to take the block for Mark? He just broke his sanction again[20] - since no one has taken the time to explain to him what a revert is (as i asked). He is now at 3RR, which is rather alot considering that he is under a 1RR sanction. Don't you care? Is it more important to snipe at WMC (or me)? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I left him a note urging that he step away for a while, and ask about reversion. ++Lar: t/c 19:33, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was just about to come here and thank you for that :) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:01, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Disengagement?

This discussion is not going to be productive...disengage please? NW (Talk) 11:53, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have no intention of disengaging with KDP now that KDP has returned. As for WMC? Go admonish WMC to stop baiting people, that should sort that. ++Lar: t/c 13:23, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See below. I believe you have baited and victimised WMC and so this line of debate should be solved by those who are truely uninvolved. Polargeo (talk) 13:26, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've baited WMC? That's rather a novel interpretation. Go admonish WMC to stop baiting people and perhaps things will inprove. You are shooting the messenger. ++Lar: t/c 13:29, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is not about tit for tat. Polargeo (talk) 13:30, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, it's about WMC baiting all and sundry, and then you coming up with the idea that I'm the one doing the baiting. I just don't think that's a view that is widely held. Many folk know about WMC's long term problematic behavior, which he has been admonished about many times. ++Lar: t/c 13:35, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you will find that I came up with the idea that you were doing the baiting based on my own observations of your conduct. WMC is not currently trying to act as an "uninvolved" admin against you. Be certain that if he did I would come down on him like a proverbial tonne of bricks. Polargeo (talk) 13:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So you have no issue whatever with his behavior and see no need to act to constrain it? Or is it just that you somehow think that I'm a bigger problem than he is? I just want to be clear here. ++Lar: t/c 13:49, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're are a bigger problem. Polargeo (talk) 13:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clearing that up. I think you won't find that view generally held. ++Lar: t/c 14:03, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly an admin who wants to police climate change with a heavy hand and a heavy POV is a much bigger problem than an editor who wishes to improve wikipedia. Polargeo (talk) 13:54, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Occasional minor incivilites and 2 reverts.!!!! You know as well as I do that is not the issue but I am not the one trying to pretend it is. Polargeo (talk) 13:57, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's certainly an interesting interpretation but I'm not sure it fits the facts on the ground. What exactly is my "heavy POV" ??? That AGW is happening and something needs to be done? I cop to that one. That the editing environment around the AGW articles is less than optimal? I cop to that one too. ++Lar: t/c 14:03, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well I don't cop to it. I am a scientist and I want wikipedia to follow the best sources in all articles. If that means humans have nothing to do with warming then great, I follow that. I mearly see your POV as represented by your extreme bias against certain editors. As I said previously I don't care if you run over baby pandas in an SUV but I do care if you try to exert a POV in an odd way by targetting some edtiors whom you clearly disagree with based on some percieved POV pushing you think they are up to. Polargeo (talk) 14:13, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your first sentence about following sources doesn't seem to address my point about the editing environment. The rest has been addressed elsewhere, you continue to assume animus on my part where none exists. My response to consistent baiting has been as moderate as I can manage, and I bear no ill will to anyone. ++Lar: t/c 13:44, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just to inform you

I have started Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Lar Polargeo (talk) 13:19, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for letting me know. Unfortunate that you didn't want to talk about things as I offered. I still don't understand where your animus originates. ++Lar: t/c 13:24, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am truly sorry that I felt that I couldn't continue in a discussion with you. This is based on my summary of your past responses and actions. Maybe I am wrong but I feel that we are not going to get anywhere because I truly believe that you should not act as an uninvolved admin in this situation and you have repeatedly shown by your edits that you continue to do this despite my concerns Polargeo (talk) 13:29, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If we factor out the "cadre", and the "deniers", who probably will line up along highly predictable lines, I don't think your view has much traction. I understand and appreciate your concern but I don't think I am any more "involved" in this area than any other admin currently active in the enforcement area, and certainly less than most. If consensus comes out that way, would that sort the issue?... or do you think there is more that needs resolving? Really, you're focusing on the wrong problem (at best) in my view. ++Lar: t/c 13:33, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My view is deal with one problem at a time and the biggest problem in my view is the fact that sanctions have been set up without a proper community consensus and they are being policed by certain self appointed sherrifs who follow their own rules. Polargeo (talk) 13:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Riderless horse

You should not have acted on an issue your wife brought up at ANI. Just a very very gentle warning. Polargeo (talk) 15:12, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

COI was fully disclosed. ++Lar: t/c 15:43, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. Warning still stands. Disclosing a COI is not a carte blanche to use your admin tools to resolve it. Polargeo (talk) 15:46, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

People turn up on my page asking me to do things all the time. Some of them are friends. No COI if I act on the request, regardless of the relationship. (I think you are confused about COI) Further, I don't edit horse articles much, and have never touched that one to the best of my recollection. I made no content determination, and am uninvolved. Further, my wife and I do not see eye to eye on a lot of things, she recently got an edit war warning from me.

As for your "warning"... find an uninvolved admin (by your definition) to give it, you are (by your definition) too involved. Raise it at AN/I then if you think it matters enough. I think you'll find that most admins would support the action I took in this circumstance. Are you sure you're not being a bit harassing here? ++Lar: t/c 16:19, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My warning to you was as a fellow editor not as an admin. I take this distinction very seriously. I would never presume to act as an admin in cases in which I had a major potential COI. I saw the case and felt that I should give you a "gentle warning" I was not going to take it any further and still will not. Polargeo (talk) 16:23, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I presume I can give you a gentle warning even if I am not an admin. This seems to be normal practice for wikipedia. Polargeo (talk) 16:26, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly. It's just that right now, your warning, however couched, doesn't come off as all that gentle, or at least, it does not when viewed through the filter of involvement/uninvolvement that you apparently want to apply. All that said, I do appreciate you sharing your concern. I did consider whether to just let it go but it was rather a blatant copyvio by an apparent SPA. ++Lar: t/c 18:55, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We should not disadvantage people for being open about their identity and relationships. I have my problems with Lar, but this time I find no fault with his actions. A COI is only a problem if the action is inappropriate. Now if his wife has friended him in Facebook, we might have the making of a conspiracy here ;-). What I do find interesting is that Lar now seems to have a new definition of involvement, though... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:34, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I strive to be consistent. I do not always succeed. Can you elaborate on that last part? ...because if I'm being inconsistent about the definition of involvement, I want to know about it! Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 18:55, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that the facebook friends thing is poking fun at a previous assertion by someone (I forget who?) that the cabal of Wikipedia scientifically focused editors coordinated via being eachothers facebook friends and sending out facebook call to arms or something. I don't know, because as much as my wife wants me to join facebook to help her hunt for mice there's simply no way. Hipocrite (talk) 19:10, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was asking Stephan Schulz about the "new definition of involvement" thing. I'm clear on the Facebook aspect. I am about to delete Facebook off my Blackberry because you can't suppress those silly Farmville et al notifications the way you can on the web version. ++Lar: t/c 19:40, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Over at the CC probation you claim to be "uninvolved" because you do not edit in the subject area, and despite the fact that several editors see that you display a clear (and one-sided, but that's neither here nor there) animosity towards WMC. Now you claim that Polargeo apparently is "involved", despite the fact that he never edited the subject area of the action in question, just because he has displayed some animosity towards you. Which way do you want it? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:32, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. Thanks for clarifying. I think I see the source of the confusion... In fact, I do not claim that Polargeo is involved, under the definition that is used at the enforcement page. I don't think he is, under that definition. Rather, I claim that Polargeo should be considering himself as involved, if he consistently applies the definition he has been putting forth elsewhere. Since he apparently doesn't (or hasn't yet, anyway) that's the inconsistency here... with Polargeo. I think I'm being consistent myself. Does that clarify matters? Or worsen them? Small point, but a useful one, I think. ++Lar: t/c 21:13, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stephan, did you have a further response or do you concede the point? ++Lar: t/c 16:16, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mousehunt? Seriously? I had heard of Farmville, which made no sense to me, but mousehunt? I'd say more, but ... I'm sure your wife has very many fine qualities, Hip. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 19:17, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's a variety of ProgressQuest, apparently. However, at this point I must cop to prior addiction to World of Warcraft. Also, my wife saves the world one 5th grade class at a time in the Bronx, so I give her a pass on Facebook. Hipocrite (talk) 19:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A fifth grade teacher is a saint. She deserves every mouse she gets. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 19:26, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was simply giving Lar a gentle unofficial warning. Where is the big deal. He did something that I would not have done. I don't think it can be classified as abuse of the tools but I feel it was a very silly thing to do. Polargeo (talk) 16:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On the matter of harassement. I am sorry if it seems that way. I am not calling for your head to roll for every single perceived misdemeanor, unlike your actions against WMC for example. Polargeo (talk) 16:56, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are not enough hours in the day to deal with every single misdemeanor of WMC, at the rate of completion that we observe at the sanctions page. So I let most of them go. ++Lar: t/c 18:56, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If taking every single opportunity to call for a major ban when even the most minor issues are brought to sanctions enforcement is your version of letting things go. I wouldn't like to see what it is like when you don't. Polargeo (talk) 19:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What I mean is that there are many more transgressions than are brought to the enforcement page. Admins have been encouraged by some to not work for consensus first, and instead just start blocking and handing out bans unilaterally. I've completely eschewed that approach up till now (and in fact have done no blocking at all, IIRC). And I never initiate enforcement requests, just comment when they come up. But WMC's behavior pattern is a long term serious problem here. One that hasn't been handled. So yes, I've been proposing more serious sanctions each time he comes up. That is fairly frequently, since the 1RR restriction and others haven't really been much more than a slap on the wrist, really. Certainly they haven't reduced the corrosiveness of his general approach to interacting with those not in the cadre. ++Lar: t/c 19:40, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

dave souza's concerns

Lar, you've not accepted that your comments on these lines should have been moved from the enforcement page to the talk page, and here you are again making accusations about "the cadre" and "the corrosiveness of his general approach", together with the novel idea that you are in a magisterial position to promote sanctions on the basis of evidence that hasn't been presented for community discussion, and only you seem to have seen. I do accept that you've not been doing the blocking yourself, and as far as I've seen you have bowed to the opinion of others, but your comments and dominating behaviour on the enforcement page have produced a corrosive environment. That has a chilling effect on those like myself who wish to see article content policy followed with care to ensure due weight to clear majority scientific views where applicable. Are you willing to stop characterising or pigeonholing others into groups such as "the cadre", which itself is a low level breach of civility policy? Will you accept that each enforcement request be dealt with in relation to the evidence presented rather than on the basis of your preconceived views about individuals? In particular, can you accept that WMC should be held to the same standards of politeness as other editors? Changing the goalposts for one editor you have obvious bad feelings about merely gives an impression that you are arguing in a prejudiced manner. Your talk has appeared to be worse than your actions, but that obviously sets an atmosphere for the sanctions page. Your serious consideration of these points will be appreciated, dave souza, talk 20:08, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Marker. Not ignoring for lack of desire to engage, deferring for time reasons. ++Lar: t/c 18:02, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Out of curiousity do you think that responding to you is more important than responding to the RfC? The "long argument" you denigrate in your outside view at the RfC is important to refuting the charge made by you (via endorsement) and your allies that I'm "delusional" about the existence of groups of editors of similar interest (and that some of them act to support each other in inappropriate ways). So while I'm certainly interested in your thoughts and will respond when I have time to do so in depth, I do have to prioritize. Unlike some, I don't have significant blocks of time to devote to nothing else than WP. ++Lar: t/c 16:15, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From a chat with LHvU, a clarification may be appropriate – it would be reasonable and correct for you to take past findings into account when dealing with a new case, my concerns would be about the "no smoke without fire" impression created by repeated unsuccessful attempts to remove WMC from the topic area, inspired by false reports in the media, and the suggestion that evidence never presented for examination could or should influence the decision. Perhaps a grey area, but in view of the circumstances care is needed to make the proceedings open and transparent. . . dave souza, talk 08:22, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This pile-on brings back some fond memories. Are you all trying to bully Lar into leaving the AGW enfocement page? It sure looks like it to me. Cla68 (talk) 23:42, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Followed the link, Cla, are you referring to your suggestion on WR about editors being close to "having their real names in the press in a story about a group of POV-pushers on Wikipedia?" Seems offtopic to me, but if you're discussing this current case on WR a pointer would be welcome. Lar's much earlier discussion with me did give me the impression that he was trying to bully me off CC related discussions, but it's easy to get a wrong impression of that sort and I was probably just reading more into Lar's way of expressing himself than he meant. . . dave souza, talk 08:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you imagine...

... how tough it would be for a newbie editor or admin to take on WMC, if someone as experienced as you are taking this much heat without even handing out a single block or ban? Therein lies the problem. It's not just WMC, it's the cadre of defenders who attack anyone who stands up to him. ATren (talk) 18:18, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That view is apparently not widely held, you realize. At least not among those who frequent the enforcement pages. And further, pointing it out makes you no friends, and not an inconsiderable number of enemies. As I found out yet again. ++Lar: t/c 18:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not so widely held no. And for my part of the favour, it is more to do with how you point it out and not about friendship (I would hope that both of you would consider me some sort of friend albeit who disagrees often; I would always try to make time to listen to either of you). The biggest problem with newbies historically is not him being argumentative but him being patronising. ATren though, you also need to think about the likely outcome of your behaviour to WMC which is a bit harrassing. There are plenty of other people (I could think easily of six) whose only interaction is to drop by to try to provoke him. Is your serious intention to wear him out so he leaves WP, to aggravate a ban or to try to reform him? Or do you think a state of being continually got at will improve him? If you want to try to reform him (which I might suggest is the best outcome) being critical all the time may be counterproductive. And certainly taking the last 500 edits which I just did for fun I would have to say all of the nasty comments do seem to be directed at people who are basically as nasty back, viz MN, you & Lar. --BozMo talk 19:37, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

BozMo, I freely admit that I do not focus on anything right now except for this topic, and in my view it is pointless to try to engage in article work when it's so contentious, and right now, the contentious atmosphere can be largely traced to a small group of individuals (where recently, small ~= 1, IMO). So until this problem is resolved, I have no intention of moving onto something else. That's just the way I operate; when there is a problem, I tend to bury myself into that problem at the expense of all else.

Now, I completely reject your insinuation that this is harassment. If WMC doesn't antagonize others, then I don't bother with him; it is only when he gets aggressive (as with MN recently) that I feel compelled to step in. And when I do step in, it is completely within the boundaries of civility. In particular, when I observe patterns of behavior, I see nothing wrong in pointing out those patterns, as long as I don't cross into ad-hominems, which I don't believe I do. For the most part, I think that's also what Lar has done here (though I do hope he resists the urge to respond to WMC any further, because I learned long ago that trying to engage WMC in debate about his behavior is fruitless).

And BozMo, if you think WMC's nastiness against someone like MN is because MN is "as nasty back", then I think you maybe missed some of this conflict. WMC has been relentlessly condescending and mocking towards Mark, for example implying that he doesn't know a scientific paper from wrapping paper. He's been similarly condescending to other editors too, i.e. Alex Harvey, an editor who repeatedly reached out to WMC in an attempt to find common ground, and all he got in return was constant condescension and baiting. This is not a new problem, and WMC is frequently the aggressor.

As for my goal in all of this: I would like to see this topic area less contentious and more collaborative. In that sense, I don't care if that means no WMC or a reformed WMC. But personally, I would prefer the latter, and I have reached out to WMC in an attempt to achieve that. It was over a year ago, and I believe I sent you links of it already (a while back). It was a link to a long discussion on my talk where I tried to coax him into more collaboration and he basically blew me off. So, perhaps you may believe "being critical all the time may be counterproductive", but in my own personal experience, the alternative is just as counterproductive. It is my opinion, after years of watching this debate, that the only way WMC will change his behavior is for admins to step up and apply a significant sanction, i.e. a topic ban of 1-2 months, to demonstrate to him that these tactics will no longer be acceptable. And then let him decide if he wants to work with others. I would even support cutting short ban if he commits to reform, just as long as he knows that the tactics will no longer be accepted here. But as it stands now, he knows he's untouchable, and therefore he has no reason to change. ATren (talk) 20:30, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I have a soft spot for MN, and I've occasionally tried to point him in the right direction. But he indeed does not know the difference between a wrapping paper and a scientific paper, or a right-wing conspiracy blog and Nature. It's extremely hard and frustrating to try to explain anything to him. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:46, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh please. The editors you are defending have been adding blog-sourced content for years. So either they "don't know scientific paper from wrapping paper" or they're outright POV pushers. Which is it? At least MN has inexperience as an excuse. ATren (talk) 01:07, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh please! RealClimate has been to WP:RSN time and time again and accepted as an exception per WP:SPS (written by experts published in other reliable sources on the topic). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 05:55, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And this random blog post which WMC inserted here? You are honestly defending WMC inserting a blog that referenced his own blog? The first two words of which were his name? This is just one example Stephan. TheGoodLocust (talk) 06:53, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

TGL, your comment is misleading: that blog was referenced in the first version of the article which wasn't created by WMC. Your link shows an IP deleting the blog, not any action of WMC's. However, I'd question the edit summary in this recent revert – while doubtless the info is correct and significant, a better reference should be found or the info should be added in a different way. . . dave souza, talk 07:59, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not misleading, just c+ped the wrong diff (now corrected). He and his friends [21] have often inserted or reinserted blog references where they should not - and considering that many would consider that LaRouche association a BLP violation it should be removed (instead of being unsourced as it currently stands). The double standard becomes apparent when people have sourced content to the New York Times (and I'm not even talking about the recent spat) only to have WMC et all remove the content when they arbitrarily decide (and are later shown to be wrong) what the truth is - violating core wikipedia policy of verifiability, not truth, time and time again. TheGoodLocust (talk) 16:30, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stephan, you really believe RealClimate is OK but other blogs are not, and not only that you mock the intelligence of those who don't understand the distinction? What IS the distinction, Stephan, that RealClimate is friendly to your views but other blogs are not? That's the problem here, I think. You've been arguing this convoluted logic for so long that you can't even see the inconsistency. ATren (talk) 16:40, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No. I believe some blogs are good sources for some topics and others are good sources for no topic. RealClimate is a good source for factual information about the current state of climate science. WUWT is a good primary source for that W believes, which in many articles is irrelevant. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:25, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(and by the way Stephan, the SPS exception does not apply to BLPs. But you don't seem to know that, so maybe you don't know scientific paper from wrapping paper either, right?) ATren (talk) 16:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

...so you have a long list of me adding blogs to BLPs? Or are you just generating random text snippets? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:25, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also like examples of me adding blogs to BLPs after, say, the creation of WP:BLP, just to set a point of refrence. Hipocrite (talk) 18:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For me I think in Climate Change I have only ever taken things out of BLPs and never added them (challenge you to find a counter example). But perhaps I am, in the view of tgl not a friend of WMC? (why does he have friends?). As a Kiping fan I guess I hope "all men count with me, but none too much" at least as far as men (or ladies) who can count go. --BozMo talk 19:04, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how I feel about you Bozmo. I don't like that you've set up carbon permit trading (seems like a major COI), and I recall you bringing me and WMC to the probation, overstating my reverts by 1 and understating WMC's by 1, but that could've simply been an error on your part. I am rather curious if you've met WMC in real life though due to your geographical similarity? In any case, although your bias is clear, you don't seem too bad. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:36, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Never met WMC, though tried to get to Cambridge Wikipedia meetings. As for the other stuff...I pointed it out to illustrate how silly the COI example was. As it happens I have been a CEO of six different oil sector companies (in three countries), two with a $1bn turnover and my mentioned responsibility for carbon permit trading was also simulatnaeously for trading and marketing gas and electricity. I was authorising signatory on a $908m contract to build a power station in Amborieta in Spain and at one point in my career was responsible for sales of marine fuel which between them generated 3% of the world's Acid rain. So, delighted though I may be with the idea I am biased by an interest in the Green business my interests in the black sticky stuff was several orders of magnitude more. But sadly for you I am still a trained scientist and therefore more inclined to the scientific methodology and consensus, which is an area where WMC excels. --BozMo talk 22:39, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm glad you haven't met him (otherwise you probably should recuse yourself), but it seemed like a possibility given your educational/professional backgrounds and proximity. And I don't really need or want to know the contents of your investment portfolio, but you have to admit it is an odd for someone to have set up carbon permit trading and simultaneously be involved in policing wikipedia in a way which could be perceived as protecting such interests. And why is it "sad for me" that you are a trained scientist? I adore science, but I also understand that lies of omission are perhaps the most effective form of propaganda, and I also understand that some fields of science like to pretend that their methods are far more robust than they actually are. You know, I don't recall "consensus" ever being taught to me in high school or college - I was taught to look for problems in methodologies - not to overlook them. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:52, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you are seeking to imply consensus is not a scientific concept, you are correct, it is a Wikipedia one. Most of successful scientific research is in working out which bits of consensus to believe or disbelieve. But scientific consensus is a Wikipedia construct which has all sorts of reasons behind it and we enforce even though we know that in places it is bound to be wrong. On COI meeting other Wikipedians happens a lot and isn't considered a COI (otherwise Wikimania meetings would be a bit odd). Chronologically I left oil and moved to the charitable sector before I ever edited Wikipedia. Aside not having had the time I also had never heard of it. And almost everyone in proper employment in the UK has serious indirect ownership of energy shares (I think they are 8% of FTSE or something like that) so you could argue than everyone has a massive pro-sceptic bias. Almost no one wants global warming to be "real", and that conflicts us all in a way toward pretending it isn't. --BozMo talk 06:44, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, on the contrary, humans are so predisposed to panic and crisis that the bias is very much towards believing such things (e.g. swine flu, bird flu, snowball earth, supervolcanos, Revelations, peak oil (and other Malthusian disasters), nuclear war, Y2K, 2012, DDT, etc, etc). The fact that some people's careers, their identities, depends on continued belief in it makes evidence they present suspect. As a pessimist I have absolutely no problem in believing things are shit; I just find the evidence to be flawed, circumstantial and better explained by other factors. As for your last point, I actually would like global warming to be real since it would open up a lot of mineral resources in the Arctic and improve agricultural output (a necessity with the growing population) - even though I personally prefer colder weather. Cheers. TheGoodLocust (talk) 07:12, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Global warming is neither a panic nor a crisis, it is on a slow timescale. On your last point, bearing in mind my that we are on someone else's user page I think I will only say that I feel it is a little "under-researched". --BozMo talk 07:49, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A few points. We seem to be a bit off the topic that Atren started. But that happens a lot around here, it's the nature of the place. :) (and that's A-OK, I like the way things get discussed here...) As for what AGW is, IMHO, it's both on a slow timescale AND a crisis. The slow timescale crises are the worst kind, in my view, because it's always easy to say "well we will deal with it in 5 years but first we have to ___" or whatever. We better take this seriously though, or sooner or later we will come a cropper. Because it's a real problem, not a manufactured one. That's not to say people don't benefit from bad news or misfortune, and aren't perversely incented by that. Don't get me started on the "welfare industry", for example. ++Lar: t/c 16:08, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose my main problem with the whole thing is that the fundamentals of the theory don't make any sort of logical sense. For example, all the catastrophic scenarios of runaway global warming, envisioned by computer models, only work by assuming that the 3-4% of CO2 that man produces (1.52 × 10-5 of the atmosphere) will cause positive feedback loops - this just doesn't make sense to me because CO2 has been so much higher in the past. It is a giant non sequitur - and add that other phenomena better explain events and it all seems rather silly. TheGoodLocust (talk) 17:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what you mean by "3-4%" - men is directly responsible for about 25-30% of the current CO2 content in the atmosphere. Yes, CO2 has been a lot higher in the past, but then the Earth was a lot warmer in the past, not to mention populated by giant man-eating dinosaurs. And, of course, if you go into the deep geological past, the Sun was a lot fainter then, too. But to stress the main point: Unless you are an expert in the domain (are you?), don't you think it takes a lot of hubris to assume you know better than the assembled experts of the world? Would you do that in other domains, like, e.g. medicine or baking or engine maintenance? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:52, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We are not responsible for 25-30% of the CO2 in the air Stephan - only fuzzy math could possibly come up with such a number. CO2 is, in fact, at a low point [22], but hey, assuming you are correct, then without man that would put CO2 levels at 271 ppm - I mean, plants can technically survive as long as it is over 200, but you are definitely cutting it close. The problem with the catastrophic/runaway global warming scenarios is not only that CO2 has been much higher in the past, but temperature has as well - if these unstoppable feedback loops were a reality (on the assumption that water vapor doesn't form into light reflecting clouds...) then the Earth would've catapulted itself into oblivion long ago. As for hubris, I think it takes a lot more pride to assume we are capable of controlling the climate by driving hybrids and switching to fluorescents, but since you are so taken with arguments from authority/popularity (logical fallacies FYI), I'll leave you with a quote (while I watch my backside for "man-eating" dinosaurs), from our favorite atmospheric physicist from MIT:

"Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early 21st century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally averaged temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and, on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a roll-back of the industrial age." -Professor Richard Lindzen. Cheers. TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:22, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-industrial levels are around 280 ppm, yes. We have, in fact, dumped about twice the amount needed to bring us to the current 387 ppm into the atmosphere. If you deny either of those, you are far far far outside reasonable opinion - ask Lindzen, if you like. I don't know what you think "catastrophic/runaway global warming is", but no-one is seriously suggesting we end up like Venus. Have you ever actually read any of the IPCC reports? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:43, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-Industrial levels = the levels they would be now? Are you seriously articulating, despite the fact that CO2 has historically varied immensely, that CO2 levels would be at pre-industrial levels if we had not been burning coal and oil? You really think this is a stagnant variable? The fact is that the biosystem crave CO2, which is why they are gobbling up so much of not only our emissions, but also Great Polluter herself the Earth. And yes, I have read through some of the IPCC reports (downloaded them when I downloaded the climategate files) and I was particularly interested in how the moderate reviewers' concerns were dismissed and culled from the report. And by catastrophic global warming I mean disasters as articulated by things like an Inconvenient Truth and the Copenhagen videos - the emotional appeals designed to frighten both support and money out of the public. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:34, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

CO2 has not "historically varied immensely" - it's been remarkably stable throughout history (as in the last 10000 years or so). It has varied "immensely" only over immense time periods. In fact, even the difference between ice age minima (around 190 ppm - I guess all the plants must have died) and maxima (about preindustrial levels) is about as big as what we now put out in ~150 years, but that change took place over 10s of thousands of years. So yes, I believe that without our emissions, CO2 levels would not significantly different from 280 ppm. And that opinion is again shared by the large majority of scientists, including Lindzen. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:58, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like this conversation is over StS (or was I supposed to continue?) since it appears I will soon be a victim of "consensus." I guess we can both pretend that I can't knock holes in everything you said. Cheers. TheGoodLocust (talk) 01:11, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to wade too far into this conversation, but I am a geologist by education and I must take issue with the statement that CO2 has "been remarkably stable throughout history". In the context of the age of planet Earth, 10,000 years is not "history", it is "right now". CO2 levels today are indeed historically low compared to the last 600-million years or so. Compared to the "average" CO2 concentration during the time that complex life has existed on Earth, levels today are extremely low, to the point that according to some theories, plant growth is retarded and large herbivores and their large predators have all died off. Rising CO2 is not a problem for life on Earth in the abstract, but of course it may be a huge problem for human life on Earth in the specific. Thparkth (talk) 11:32, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read my comment? "History" is typically defined as the period for which we have some written sources - with 10000 years I was on the generous side (and just to make that clear I, well, made it clear by spelling it out. Sure, over longer periods of time, CO2 has varied more (as, again, I spelled out). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:58, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I read it, and I do actually agree with your main point, I'm just pointing out the difference between an anthropocentric view of time (much favored in climate change discussions) vs. a geological one, where frankly the entire long-term result of the whole of human civilization is likely to be nothing more than an interesting, if slightly more than usually dirty, layer of fossils. Thparkth (talk) 12:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One thing I would say - and this is as someone with very basic scientific knowledge - but in Earth history when CO2 levels were as high as they are currently or projected, there was a considerable difference in the flora/fauna then abundant. They could tolerate that atmosphere, through the wonderful mechanisms of natural selection - the Earths current lifeforms are not so able to cope, certainly in changes that can be measured in centuries and decades. The headlines that state the risk to life are referring to those higher classes of animal - and some plants - that include us, our livestocks, our food crops, and the like; the planet and life will likely survive in some form whatever happens to the air and water and sea levels, but that may not include us. It isn't a point I see raised often enough in these debates - or at all. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:16, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, a lot of organisms evolved under much higher levels of CO2. Amusingly, corals evolved in such an environment and are being used as "proof" of global warming because some are doing poorly (due to farm runoff actually). As for adaption, humans can actually adapt to survive at much higher levels of CO2 (amazing what we can learn from submarines), higher than anything we could put into the atmosphere. The basic problem here is one of limited measurement - we see a tiny fragment of an enormous picture and think we know the whole thing. This is similar to how the news shows us disasters all over the world and how autism is diagnosed more - improved detection does not imply increased activity. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:34, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly don't know if the AGW concern is real or over-stated, but one thing I do know is I'm not generally willing to gamble on something where losing has such drastic consequences. Even if there's a 1% chance that the CO2 will destroy all life on earth, or even "just" obliterate the coasts, I want us to do what we can to prevent even that 1% eventuality. So I tend to be on the side of pragmatic moves away from our current addiction to fossil fuels, regardless of the validity of the hockey stick. And the current mess in the Gulf of Mexico reinforces that. Our addiction to oil is a Bad Thing that we should work to minimize.

Where I differ from some editors here is, I believe the fight over tree rings and hockey sticks is a distraction from that larger goal. In their zeal to suppress criticism of the consensus, AGW-supporting scientists are winning the battle in scientific journals but losing the war of public opinion, which continues to lag far behind the scientific consensus. People see Climategate and the Wikipedia CC wars, both involving very high profile people in the AGW debate, and their distrust meter goes way into the red. They don't see scientists presenting data, they see environmentalists trying to take away their cars, or their gasoline, or their right to cut down a tree. Of course, certain elements on the "skeptic" side will amplify those fears (which are already overblown), but then, it's very easy to amplify when they're handed such rich material as Climategate and the Wikipedia CC battles.

But when editors here try to address the problems in this topic area, particularly that a very small group of editors has owned this topic for a long time, we are attacked as "septics" with an agenda. Apparently, nobody considers the possibility that someone like me can be sympathetic to their views and goals while disagreeing with their tactics, or that I could oppose an editor like WMC not because I have something against him, but because his identity as an environmentalist combined with his aggressiveness here does more harm than good to not only Wikipedia, but also to the goals we happen to share. In other words, I want him to stop not because I disagree with him, but because I agree with him. ATren (talk) 02:02, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's it precisely. I feel exactly the same way. I buy the science. I have for a long time. But the world isn't taking it seriously. And it's the folk doing the spin control (in the real world) that are wrecking things. The scientific method is supposed to allow for free and open examination of results... when that's interfered with, people start to wonder "what do these people have to hide?" ++Lar: t/c 04:46, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the folk doing the spin control (in the real world) - you mean people like Tim Ball, Christopher Monckton, Jim Inhofe, Anthony Watts, and Lawrence Solomon? Or are you confused about who is doing the spinning? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:04, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is spin control on both sides. Or do you deny that there is any on the other side? ++Lar: t/c 13:42, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And when a scientist trys to engage with sceptics as I admire her for doing. Their engagement gets spun across the sceptic blogosphere as support for all of their deepest consiparcies per the recent BLP issues at Judith Curry Polargeo (talk) 11:25, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Which is reprehensible. As is the suppression of what Curry said here at WP. ++Lar: t/c 13:42, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Erm? Excuse me! Where the devil is the "suppression"? Removing badly sourced and incorrectly quoted content on a BLP is "suppression"? Nice!? Perhaps you may want to extend just a tiny bit of good faith, and ask whether people think that information on Curry's views should be included? I for one believe that it should - but it has to be quoted correctly, in context and be meticulously sourced. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:25, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That also echo's my personal view of both the outside world (that is, of both Wikipedia and - differently - the scientific community) view and the issues with these articles. The science is sound, and is being tested, refined, and tested again, but the subject is not just the science. Both Lar and I ("...surprise, surprise...!" might be heard muttered) have separately suggested that the current AGW article might be retitled "Science of...", since that aspect dominates the article. I feel, however, that outside of our little world(s) it is the debate generated by the various interested parties that dominates the general public's attention. As a general purpose encyclopedia, rather than a scientific journal, it might be that the point of entry article Global Warming should address this wider consideration with reference to both the scientific consensus and the positions taken in relation to it by the different interested parties. Instead, I see that aspect of the issue marginalised away from the flagship article so that it appears that WP's stance is that AGW is an uncontrovertible fact (which is of course the consensus scientific view, but not so firmly the one recognised by the larger world) which is not in accordance to the WP ethos of scrupulous neutrality. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. ++Lar: t/c 13:42, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am less concerned about article structure than the overall slant of the text. Some of these articles give the appearance of advocating a position rather than presenting the facts. It's subtle, and I truly believe that someone passionate about this issue would not recognize it, but to outsiders it is obvious. And it happens on both sides. Marknutley has produced some article stubs that exhibited obvious POV problems initially; but once he promoted to article space those issues were quickly corrected, because there are plenty of good editors on the "other side" (there I go again talking about sides ;-)) who immediately spot the POV and correct it. That's the way it's supposed to work, but the imbalance of editors in this topic area has prevented that from happening both ways.

I think this exemplifies the fundamental conundrum of writing neutral articles in a contentious topic area: (1) the most active editors are those who are passionate about the issue, and (2) it is extremely difficult for editors passionate about an issue to write neutrally about that issue. Given these assumptions (which I believe hold true), it is absolutely essential for editors from all sides to work together in an atmosphere of mutual respect. That hasn't happened here, and indeed neutral/skeptical editors have been driven off by the contentious atmosphere and uneven enforcement of behavioral policies.

So with that goal in mind, I've tried to mentor some "skeptic" editors who can provide the balancing POV that these articles require. Examples include GoRight, Alex Harvey, Marknutley. In all cases, I had to tell them over and over again, "ignore WMC", but invariably WMC will escalate his aggressiveness beyond any editor's breaking point, because he's untouchable. So here we are: GoRight banned (probably injustly, given the level of hostility of those around him); Alex Harvey burned out; Marknutley close to burnout or ban; Cla68 and Lar (both neutrals by any reasonable standard) attacked as "biased"... and the result is the same few editors have free reign on these articles and the subtle but pervasive POV issues remain. ATren (talk) 16:14, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Within that context, I really do not think WMC's attitude is the problem - because if he were the only editor who thought that the AGW articles were fundamentally neutral then the consensus would be something else; it is the reasonable - as in conducting themselves and their editing to preferred WP practices - editors who also believe that the viewpoint represented by the articles currently is the most encyclopedic. Given the tactics and advocacy of CC denial it isn't that surprising that there is something of a siege mentality as regards the viewpoint, but it is unhelpful in that "neutral to the other point of view" editors reasonable requests to allow more discourse upon the fact that there is established skepticism and denial of CC/AGW is disallowed on the premise that it gives these opinionaters more weight than the facts they rely upon; not wishing to allow the science to be usurped by political or mercantile considerations. Very worthy, but unrepresentative of the real debate outside of acedemia. Where WMC's, and others, actions are unhelpful is that it feeds this WP:BATTLE mentality and lessens the potential of substantive discussion over the question of npov editing. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But my point is that the battleground atmosphere combined with uneven behavioral enforcement actually sustains the existing consensus, because neutrals don't want to get involved in such a contentious fight and opposing partisans are removed from the debate. So it's not surprising that all that's left are those who agree with the status quo. If the battleground editors are removed on both sides, then a wider range of editors might get involved and help clean up the subtle POV problems that remain. The argument against this has always been "but if you remove WMC, the articles will go to crap", but that assumes that (a) the articles are already "correct" and therefore any movement away from the status quo will be detrimental, and (b) that the editors remaining will allow the pendulum to swing too far the other way. I disagree with both premises. ATren (talk) 20:43, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi TGL. I do agree with quite a bit of what you say: I think that humans could survive at higher CO2 and know that there were much higher CO2 levels in the past. On the flipside of the "past" bit, though, it is interesting to note that humans evolved in one of the lowest CO2 environments that the Earth has seen in its history. I think that the current concern about CO2 deals quite a bit with sea level rise and water supplies. Lots of people live on the coast, and lots of peoples' water is regulated by storage in and release from glaciers. There are positive feedback loops involved in global warming (ice-albedo being the most commonly talked-about) - without this, the ice age cycle wouldn't be able to be forced by orbital cycles. The runaway stuff is IMO environmentalist scare tactics. Awickert (talk) 01:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given our past interactions you would probably consider me an unlikely ally, but I do admire you for being ballsy enough to take on such an uphill battle. Who knows, maybe something will eventually come of it. The Wordsmith^Communicate 19:55, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. (as said in email) ++Lar: t/c 16:08, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have replied to your email. The Wordsmith^Communicate 18:36, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Welfare Industry

Yes please do start. --BozMo talk 17:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'll pass for now. Perhaps after the RfC is resolved. ++Lar: t/c 23:09, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, a pleasure for the future. I love Grumpy_Old_Men_(TV_series)

I'm not sure I get the reference. I don't watch TV much at all and am uninterested in most of it, with very limited exceptions. ++Lar: t/c 13:38, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Don't get me started on" is a sort of characterisation of Grumpy Old Men in the series. --BozMo talk 18:46, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cadre

@Lar (so I would rather no one else replied until at least Lar has). The talk page on the RFC is a bit over-run so since I am trying to work out my opinion on the issue may I make a comment here: In my view a characteristic of a cadre, gang etc is clearly defined edges or membership. The existence of a core in a correlation does not establish a cadre unless there are also edges. Indeed as I am sure you know, cadre comes from the French for a box or frame and is used in French to specifically distinguish between blue and white collar workers, it is a "sharp edged" concept. On Global Warming, whatever correlations exist as far as I can see there are not clear edges. If we start with WMC or Kim and start widening the correlations to demonstrate a cadre you would need to show the list stops whilst the correlations spread. Last time (a couple of years ago) this was done on the Global Warming pages my (fallible) memory found some 35 editors involved in restroring the consensus view with a continuous variation in involvement from lots to just a few. At that time it was easy to draw a line around about 5 skeptics although there were later arrivals after blog campaigns to try to shift the article. Consequently, using words like gang and cadre of the editors in the centre around WMC is unjustified and promotes a battleground mentality. --BozMo talk 07:22, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I freely cop to not necessarily using the right word, something I've already said. I haven't found the right one yet and welcome suggestions. As you point out this grouping does have amorphous edges. But the defining characteristic, in my view, is not the position taken on the science, or even participation in article editing, although those are ways to find candidates, the defining characteristic is the pile on reflexive defense of editing practices that don't fit with our norms. There is occasional acknowledgment of issues but by and large it's, in my view, tactical. If I'm right about this phenomenon, it's not incivil to point it out. If I can be conclusively demonstrated to be wrong (denial of existence is not demonstration, mind) then I will apologize and retract my statements. As an aside: I've always felt that excusing jurors who seem to have a clue was a bad practice. While I have your ear, I must say I was surprised and dismayed to see you endorse SBHB's view since it's full of distortions of the record. Most of the other endorsers I wasn't surprised about, but you? I thought you knew better. ++Lar: t/c 13:38, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, perhaps it is all words. A considerable part of my unhappiness about your comments derives from some of the words you use (inevitably). Clearly if we can find better words to use instead which match your view better and mean something different to me then my view would revise; but I need time to go through and see what it does if you replace "AGW cadre" with "core contributers" or whatever across the board. SBHB I have to say generally errs on the side of fairness in general so I will have another look. --BozMo talk 18:12, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can I please explain my own edits. I am probably not part of this cabal anyway but I am a scientist. I started editing over a year ago. I have not had significant offwiki contact with anyone. That is not to say I haven't had an email, but no more than one from any individual but I have never discussed any "tactics" with anyone and I have a mind of my own. As with any editing I quickly got familiar with those editors who were fighting against idiots (that is actually a soft word for the situation). Sometimes when I get bored with Balkans articles or Antarctic glaciology I have a look at the climate change articles. I see these guys reverting idiots so often that I sometimes join in with a revert and stick a comment on the talkpage. I only ever do this if I totally agree with the revert. I think if you spent five minutes really looking at the editors you would realise that KDP, WMC and SBHB to name just a few are some of the most intelligent people in this area of wikipedia, if not the most intelligent (far more clever than I am) do you really think they are jumping onto the revert button as some sort of "cabal" against some of the editors who are supporting Lar. No in my opinion they are actually defending wikipedia and Lar must in my opinion be a complete non-scientist to not realise this. Polargeo (talk) 18:47, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So to sum it up. If you see someone has reverted an idiot and the idiot has reverted their silly poorly sourced addition back in. Would it not be natural to try to repair the article? Now by Lar's comments this would be represented as me being part of a conspiracy!!! I cannot help it if sceptics on the whole are incapable of decent additions to wikipedia. I'm not here to nursemaid poor additons even if I agree with them, maybe from newbies but not from people who have been here for months. Polargeo (talk) 18:56, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't read what I've been saying nearly carefully enough, I don't think. ++Lar: t/c 19:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(after ec)Where to start? I think perhaps a review of some of your assumptions may be of benefit. There seem to be a few implicit ones about my views that are incorrect:

That I don't agree with KDP, WMC and SBHB, et al, about the science. As I've said, repeatedly, I do. While I am a layman in this area I've done enough reading in the topic to be completely convinced there is something serious going on and that in the main it fits what the global scientific consensus is.
That it's about the content of the articles. As I've said, repeatedly, I'm satisfied with the general weight given to the mainstream consensus about AGW versus the fringe theories and deniers. My disquiet rather is to do with the emphasis (social and political, vs. science) and about the tendency I see to try to suppress any sort of acknowlegement that there might be loose ends. Getting the names of articles to change to reflect common usage, to pick just one example, is a tooth and claw fight.
That I don't think KDP, WMC and SBHB, et al, are "intelligent". I've never said any such thing. I know they are. I just think they're going about "defending the wiki" the wrong way. Suppression and spin control get noticed. They perhaps have gotten so burnt out fighting with the deniers they no longer can tolerate differing opinions in any form, even from allies, about their approach.
That I think there is an offwiki coordinated effort here. There might be, but it's not the way to bet. The actions we are seeing are perfectly explainable merely by assuming certain folks watch each others contribs.
That I am a "complete non scientist"... this is the most inexplicable claim of all. I'm an engineer but I have considerable scientific training. My BS was going to be in Chem Eng until I switched majors in my senior year to Comp Sci, and I have a Masters as well.
That because I am a non scientist I don't realise that "defending wikipedia" at all costs via a scorched earth policy is the right approach. I'm not sure it is. I've expressed doubts, where I've wondered if this problem is in fact so important that we should use a scorched earth policy and overturn the WP principles because if we don't the world isn't going to listen and isn't going to do enough about AGW soon enough to prevent the impending disaster that coastal flooding, agriculture shifts, and other change will bring.

My concern here is that the camps are so hardened that even a natural ally like myself has been put aside because I don't condone the means used to support the needful end. ++Lar: t/c 19:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As for me... I do not take issue with any decisions you have made acting as an uninvolved admin, your conversation seems reasonable to me and your opinion in the mix of responses adds value. Looking at the SBHB comments on RFC and elsewhere my concern is primarily that your choice of language is sometimes inappropriate (SBHB gives examples). I do not think that this problem is unique to you, plenty of other people involved in CC use battleground language etc. However, I don't see other people acting as uninvolved who are repeatedly making such personal or judgmental general characterisations outside the confines of specific requests for endorsement (I am sure like Gordon Brown I may have said bigot under my breath a few times too). Trading blow for blow with WMC is not really allowed whilst you are taking this role. I think you need to choose whether to judiciously ignore him and carry on as uninvolved or indulge in "I know your little game", "your gang", "I wondered when you would show up" etc replies. As a sysop on Wikipedia I reckon you just need to take the abuse and smile. Sometimes people even apologise later... --BozMo talk 19:31, 2 May 2010 (UTC) Oh and that includes not refers to a cmt as "snarky mockery" [23] even if the comment was of itself unhelpful. Basically that is escalating abuse rather than ignoring it. --BozMo talk 19:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm willing to cop to not being perfect in my discourse. But that comment was snarky mockery and I think not calling people on stuff like that is part of why people get away with it. But ya. ++Lar: t/c 03:34, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Old Fruit?

Yes, I probably shouldn't point this out, especially now, but I've never been good at shutting up.

I believe you've asked WMC not to refer to you as "old fruit?" If my memory is correct then I believe this is a reference to you (might need to scroll down on the diff/check the edit summary).

I also object to him classifying a little joke as an "ethnic slur" (slurring me as a racist for those who don't actually look at the diff), but I suppose that is par for the course. TheGoodLocust (talk) 00:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not totally clear who WMC is referring to. I'll have to ask him, I guess. Somehow. ++Lar: t/c 03:06, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"obviously LHVU / Lar will now need to "narrow" the meaning of slur to exclude this use." It is either a reference to you or Less - I'm sure WMC will be happy to clarify though. TheGoodLocust (talk) 03:30, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given that WMC (as most of England [24]) uses old fruit as rhyming slang for "chum" I would be surprised if he was addressing Lar or Less that way, aside the prohibition from American connotation. And the obvious reading from the diff was that it was addressed at himself (since his edit was to narrow down his previous comment). However finding out is clearly the priority now and doesn't look at all like harrasment. --BozMo talk 07:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard the phrase used either endearingly or pejoratively. Cla68 (talk) 07:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting interpretation of the diff Bozmo and I respect your honest opinion. TheGoodLocust (talk) 07:29, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

BozMo, perhaps you're not aware that Lar recently asked WMC specifically not to refer to him by that term [25]. Seems to me that this is more baiting by WMC. But in his defense, WMC can't be expected to be sensitive to what other editors prefer to be called. ATren (talk) 07:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi ATren, Yes I know Lar requested not and I agree WMC should not address him that way (I don't know exactly what the offensive meaning is but I understand in the US even words like Fag and Fanny have strange meanings). As I have said where I was brought up "cock" and "cocker" were also terms of affection. But in this particular instance where it did not seem clearly addressed at Lar I think pursuing it is, well, am I allowed to say "pandering to attention seeking"... perhaps not. --BozMo talk 07:47, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

BozMo: It's a reasonable interpretation that it was addressed to me, or to LHvU, or to both of us. It's a less reasonable, but still plausible interpretation that it was addressed to himself. So I asked, in a neutral way, with no prejudgment of response visible in the wording, and I'm prepared to take WMC at his word. Note how Guettarda responded. Including the insinuation that I'm a "skeptic". That is an example of the knee jerk defensiveness from members of this group that I've referred to as being problematic. Go chastise Guetterda. And while you're at it remind him yet again that I'm not a climate skeptic, I'm just skeptical of Guettarda's methods. NOT the science. If you let Guettarda slide without a word, I will be disappointed in you and I will be (slightly) less inclined to take you seriously. YOU have standing to warn him without a charge that you might be baiting. I am perfectly entitled to warn him too, (or even, under the terms of the probation, block him) but I will let you have the opportunity to do it, first. ++Lar: t/c 10:51, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes BozMo, I agree. You have to start taking a tougher stand against those aligned with WMC. As far as I'm concerned, Lar's RFC has set the standard for "involvement" and "bias" in this probation, and I'm afraid you're not meeting it as long as you continue to defend these indefensible actions while opining so much more strongly against anyone who opposes WMC. And in particular, your (and KC's) support of SBHB's one-sided view in that RFC is (IMO) a strong indicator of not only your own biases, but you inability to work with other admins in this area. I think you should remove yourself entirely from this probation, as should 2/0, KC, and all others who have shown bias. This would not have been my preferred approach here, but after seeing the bogus criticism Lar is getting, it's time all admins were subjected to the same scrutiny. ATren (talk) 13:21, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On a side note - am I totally off base? (Open to anyone really)

I feel quite strongly that Bozmo has changed his interpretation of the rules and I think the evidence I presented was clear, but I'm open to a reasonable alternative explanation. TheGoodLocust (talk) 03:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have to go with "yes", you're at least mostly off base. I erred in inviting you without getting clearance for it first. But more importantly you're generally not to discuss the topic area, and that's rather a broad prohibition. Cut BozMo some slack please. ++Lar: t/c 03:40, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cut him some slack? He immediately proposed a 3 month extension of my ban after I commented on his talk page instead of filing an RfC. He flat out said that the probation area doesn't apply to user talk pages - when WMC's probation came up and was amended, but with me he seems to think a 3 month extension is reasonable over a single comment on his talk page I honestly considered a courtesy to him. TheGoodLocust (talk) 03:47, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that comment was the problematic area... rather it's the arguing about the topic itself. ++Lar: t/c 03:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand what you are saying - I'm being punished for arguing that the probation isn't being applied consistently? I made the comment, he deleted it, and then immediately proposed a 3 month ban, while bringing up things that had nothing to do with the CC probation (e.g. comments on WMC's talk page for example). TheGoodLocust (talk) 03:56, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the issue was that you've been arguing about the topic itself (arguing about whether AGW is real or not) I could be misreading it. I'm late for bed, I'll try to take a look in the AM. ++Lar: t/c 04:19, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@tgl. Here, by invitation you are welcome to talk. You are not, in my view, being punished. The prohibition is because you currently are clearly failing to recognise inappropriate behaviour and it appears a ban the only way of stopping you doing something which is bad for the project. This conversation is an example of behaviour which is unhelpful. It has been explicitly and clearly explained to you that there was no change in interpretation of the rules; user talk pages are not part of the CC probation in general but they were but of the area where you were banned from discussing Climate Change. But even though this has been patiently explained in a number of places you carry on raising it in other places and make bold accusatory comments about it. This page is the third (or more than third possibly) place where you are repeating this same point. If you put it in one place then someone will answer it and any concerned party is free to read your complaint, the reply and draw their own conclusions. If you put it all over Wikipedia then you leave editors the choice of looking like we ignore serious but false allegations or making them reply in each place. That is a nuisance and a form of forum shopping. --BozMo talk 06:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well Bozmo, I brought it up to you and your response was to immediately delete it and then propose to extend my ban for 3 months - that sort of retaliation seemed quite draconian and I repeat that you need to consider your biases more carefully (and I'm not the only one who has said as much). With WMC, his prohibition was specifically stated to include user talk pages, even his user talk page, and 2over0 amended that after it came to his attention that he'd violated the letter of his sanction - which, of course, meant no punishment for violating his sanction, and certainly not a 3 month ban like you are proposing for me.

I have yet to hear an rational explanation of why the climate change probationary boundaries are extended in my case, beyond their stated scope, to be as harsh as possible and yet amended to prevent punitive measures when WMC's name comes up. In fact, if there was any sense of decency in this place then you all would've warned WMC for bringing up a clearly retaliatory RfE that has done nothing more than to cause the drama it was so clearly intended to summon. My actions were clearly not disruptive prior to WMC's stirring of the pot yet again and sanctions are meant to be preventative not punitive - or is that only when convenient? TheGoodLocust (talk) 06:38, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We haven't worked out how long to extend your ban for yet. AFAICT .yYou had already placed the same type of allegation [26] in another location which you knew I frequented after you posted on my talkpage and had got an answer on my talkpage and before I deleted it from my talkpage and suggested extending the ban. The other stuff has already been answered elsewhere. --BozMo talk 06:55, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I posted a link to the post that I made because I thought it was quite relevant that your definition of probationary scope appears to change depending on whose sanction it is. Also, while certainly not sanctionable, your recent creation and adding of the "old fruit" template, shows precisely where your sympathies lie and exactly why you are incapable of acting neutrally in this area. TheGoodLocust (talk) 07:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You posted more than one link [27] and repeated the essential claim. As for the rest, I think you have already had the answer on the distinction between uninvolved and neutral. In fact I am not going to go back and find it but Lar expressed it rather neatly. And I am allowed to form a view on the value of editors and their contributions. --BozMo talk 07:51, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're right! I'm condemned! I pointed out to WMC, who was complaining that I might not get sanctioned, that he has had his own sanctions retroactively changed in order to avoid sanction. I find it incredible curious that nearly everytime I respond to WMC or to you, that you find that as evidence that I should be banned for a few more months. I'm still waiting on how you feel your actions are prevenative and not punitive. TheGoodLocust (talk) 08:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 685: / Line 685: @@
 :::::Hi ATren, Yes I know Lar requested not and I agree WMC should not address him that way (I don't know exactly what the offensive meaning is but I understand in the US even words like Fag and Fanny have strange meanings). As I have said where I was brought up "cock" and "cocker" were also terms of affection. But in this particular instance where it did not seem clearly addressed at Lar I think pursuing it is, well, am I allowed to say "pandering to attention seeking"... perhaps not. --[[User:BozMo|BozMo]] [[user talk:BozMo|talk]] 07:47, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 ::::::BozMo: It's a reasonable interpretation that it was addressed to me, or to LHvU, or to both of us. It's a less reasonable, but still plausible interpretation that it was addressed to himself. So I asked, in a neutral way, with no prejudgment of response visible in the wording, and I'm prepared to take WMC at his word. Note how Guettarda responded. Including the insinuation that I'm a "skeptic". ''That'' is an example of the knee jerk defensiveness from members of this group that I've referred to as being problematic. Go chastise Guetterda. And while you're at it remind him yet again that I'm not a climate skeptic, I'm just skeptical of Guettarda's ''methods''. NOT the science. If you let Guettarda slide without a word, I will be disappointed in you and I will be (slightly) less inclined to take you seriously. YOU have standing to warn him without a charge that you might be baiting. I am perfectly entitled to warn him too, (or even, under the terms of the probation, block him) but I will let you have the opportunity to do it, first. ++[[User:Lar|Lar]]: [[User_talk:Lar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Lar|c]] 10:51, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
+:::::::Yes BozMo, I agree. You have to start taking a tougher stand against those aligned with WMC. As far as I'm concerned, Lar's RFC has set the standard for "involvement" and "bias" in this probation, and I'm afraid you're not meeting it as long as you continue to defend these indefensible actions while opining so much more strongly against anyone who opposes WMC. And in particular, your (and KC's) support of SBHB's one-sided view in that RFC is (IMO) a strong indicator of not only your own biases, but you inability to work with other admins in this area. I think you should remove yourself entirely from this probation, as should 2/0, KC, and all others who have shown bias. This would not have been my preferred approach here, but after seeing the bogus criticism Lar is getting, it's time all admins were subjected to the same scrutiny. [[User:ATren|ATren]] ([[User talk:ATren|talk]]) 13:21, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 == On a side note - am I totally off base? (Open to anyone really) ==