Talk:Cumans

Old talk

I removed Béla Kun from the list of people whose surnames are related to the Cumans until someone can offer proof that his last name isn't simply a variation of Cohen.

Bratici

Bassarab and Tihomir are NOT CUMANS, they were romanian although they bore names of Cuman origin. Romanian political entities are mentioned since 1247 whilst there is no written or archaeological evidence of a significant Cuman population or political entity in the region between Carpathians and Danube at that time. Undoubtedly, they had a great influence when they dominated this space in the XIIth century, hence the Cuman names of Bassarab and Tihomir. Saying that Bassarab and Tihomir are Cuman warlords, only by a name basis is like saying King George of England was a Greek because he has a name of Greek origin.

Moreover THE CUMANS DID NOT FOUD WALLACHIA. Wallachia was founded by native romanians

By the way, the fact that Bassarab and Tihomir were romanians and not cumans is a certainty. I believe the person who's editing this article should study this problem thoroughly i.e The Diploma of The Joannites from 1247, archaeological indications regarding Cuman ethnic population in rapport with the romanian one and so on.

I couldn't have agreed more.84.234.110.198 13:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I have removed this statement: However taking into account that the two of them ruled over territories formerly reigned by the Romanian leaders mentioned in the Diploma of the Joannites from 1247, and that there is no archeological evidence to sustain the continuous presence of a Cuman population, only Hungarian documents mentioning a toll-paying Wallachian population, it is quite obvious that Tihomir and Basarab I were as Romanian as the population they reigned over). This statement is an POV opinion not based on any sound facts. According to mainstream historians there are nothing obvoius about history of Vallachia before 1300 AD. In fact population of present day Vallachia an Moldavia was ethnicaly mixed during Middle Ages: Romanian, Slavonic and Turkic. Presence of hundreds names of Turkic origin in Romania, names of rulers and nobility, as well as extremally strong presence of Slavonic elements in ROmanian language and culture strongly support this thesis. It is quite possibly that ruling class was of Turkic, nomad, origin. Nomads frequently used to subdue more settled population. By the way Tihomir is not Turkic name but Slavonic one. Yeti 20:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, Tihomir is a actually a Cuman name: Tok Temur (Strong Iron). You'd better check this thoroughly as it obvious you did not bother to do that when you posted that. Sound facts that show this is not a personal opinion:

1.In 1247 the diploma of the joannites mentions 4 rulers identified as "wallachs": Ioan (John), Farkas (the hungarian name for the slavonic "Valcea"=Wolf), Seneslau (in hungarian document Szanislo) and Litovoi. The document makes a difference between this toll paying rulers and other slavonic and turkic populations that were scattered across this space.

2.The wallachian population usually lived in hill regions, not on open fields like slavonic and turkic populations. Historians such as Keith Higgins agree on the fact that the Mongolic invasion from 1241 scattered the slavonic and turcik populations on the romanian plains allowing the wallachians to fill the political vacuum in that region. Moreover, most of the cumans refugeed in Hungary after the crushing of their state, led by Kuthan.

3.As i said earlier, the strong name influence the cuman and slavs exercised upon romanian population does not indicate that the ruling class was of that ethnic origin. This thesis is as absurd as saying that King George of England is a Greek just by having a greek name or that Jonathan Swift was a Jewish just because it has a Jewish name. If we follow this premise, then user Yeti is obviously a tibetan.

4.Nomad usually used to subdue the more settled population, i agree, but they usually were assimilated by the settled populations who were more culturally advanced than them. That is why the Bulgarians, turkic people at origin, are now a slavonic people. And there are plenty examples of this kind.

5. Hungarian documents mention in these region a toll-paying wallachian population (see the conflict between Litovoi and Laszlo IV). Does this not ring the bell? the hungarian chroncles always make a difference between the slavs and wallachs during this century unlike previous centuries. Of course the population was mixed(as in any other state or region of the globe) but the romanian were the majority.

Merge?

Cumania has a lot of cited material that deals with Cuman as opposed to the territory. Should these articles be merged?--tufkaa 15:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

yep.The 89 guy 08:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I would merge both articles into Kypchak. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 17:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I still think an article on the area is warranted (much like Severia). However, much information from this article should be moved to Severians and or as you suggested Kypchaks.--tufkaa 17:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Support --Timurberk 08:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I really think this article should be merged into the Kipchaks one. After all, aren't both terms different denominations for the same people? Rsazevedo (talk) 17:03, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Oppose First of all we have an article named "Cumania" if we move Cumans to Kypchak that article will remain orphan. Also, from what I understand Cumans were only the Western Kypchaks, so it might be a difference there. Also Western Kypchaks were called "Cumans" (or derived term) by Turks, Romanians, Bulgarians, and Hungarians. Moving that to Kypchaks seems a little bit artificial since nobody in those areas knows them by that name. -- AdrianTM (talk) 17:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Support Separating the Cumans and the Kipchaks would only be misleading and artificial. What the Hungarians called Cumans were called the Kipchaks by the Turks, and Polovtsy by the Russians. All three names point to the same people. In order to have a complete article all names should be mentioned in the right context. For example, Kutan the Kipchak chief emigrated with forty thousand "huts" to Hungary where he converted to Christianity. I am surprised his name is not even mentioned in the article which is a very interesting topic.--Nostradamus1 (talk) 00:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. It seems the view that the Kypchaks and Cumans are synonyms is not universal. For instance, I see that Denis Sinor, The Cambridge History of Early Inner Asia, p. 178, Cambridge University Press says:

"The precise relationship of the Cumans to the Kipchaks is unclear". bogdan (talk) 00:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the veridicity of the source I quoted above, but even if it's not a common view, I believe that there should be an article about the Kypchaks/Cumans in Central Europe and the Balkans (they had a rather important role for a couple of centuries in Bulgaria, Hungary, Wallachia and Moldavia) Kypchaks has a rather great scope and I think that it should be left as the main article and this article as a subarticle, talking only about their tribes that lived in the Balkans. How it should be named it's up to be decided. Probably more than 90% of sources about the Balkans use the name "Cumans". bogdan (talk) 00:53, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

As I indicated the separation of Cumans and Kipchaks would be artificial. It sounds like the Pamirian origin theory of Bulgars that is based on Bulgarian ethno-nationalistic insecurities. I will find you multiple-sources that state that the Cumans and Kipchaks are one and the same people. --Nostradamus1 (talk) 04:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

English Name

I changed the English name, because that is how my Atlas puts them at.

Cumania

I would merge Kypchak to Cuman, since Kypchak is a modern term based on the self determination of the today assumed descendants (also Turkmens and Kazaks, who does not really have to do with Cumans apart from far relation), and not 100% the same. Lke British is today the Anglo-Saxon population, but 1500 years ago the non-Anglo-Saxon Celtic population (Arthur).

It makes sense to merge Russian and Balkan history to one article.

To the discussion above the topic is far not closed. Hungarian historians know no Wallachians before 12th century in later Wallachia. But the above writer is right, Cumans did not live in Wallachia, because the term is refers to the Today Romanian former Vlach/Wallachs.

Tihomir sounds unfortunately Slavic, Temur, Demir etc in Turk comes from Persian by the way.

But definitely the prices might be Cumans according to non-Romanian historians... Please, leave the discussion open to the findings of the next 50 years as compromise.--Vargatamas 20:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Demir, Temur, Temir and Timur are Turkic names and not persian. Please do not write nonsense. Orrin_73 07:20, 11 October 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orrin 73 (talk • contribs)

Iyi aksamlar, it is not necessarily nonsense. Turkish has many loanwords from Arabic (check verbs with etmek) and from Persian (e.g. Carsamba, Persembe, Kale, etc. ) I try to demosnstrate from google checked a Persian (Tadzik, etc also ok) dictionary key word Timur (it is not bad, all lnguages have from Latin, Greek, or tomatl, chocolatl from Nahuatl, or in Hungarian there are Slavic words - patak, asztal, etc or Turkish/Cuman csizma=cizme, teve=deve, zseb=ceb etc, and does not mean it would be meaningless in Turkish):

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/search3advanced?dbname=steingass&query=timur&matchtype=exact&display=utf8 6. تمر بلیغ timur-balīg̠ẖ : (page 324)

تمر tamr, Ripe date;--tamri gujrāt, Red tamarind;--tamri hindī, Tamarind.

تمر بلیغ timur-balīg̠ẖ T تمر بلیغ timur-balīg̠ẖ, Iron-bow, surname of the Seljuk prince Duqāq.

تمرة tamrat, tamra A تمرة tamrat, tamra, A single date.

--Vargatamas 21:15, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Iyi aksamlar Vargatamas! I think the word "Timur" (or "Temur", "Demir", ... etc.) is purely Turcic. If it is also in Persian, I believe that's because it was loaned from a Turcic language. The link you have sent does not say anything about the ethymology of the word "Timur". Unfortunately, I could not find a website describing the ethymology of this word. But I have not seen any ethymologist who claims that it was of Persian origin either. You should show us a stronger proof of your claim.

Polovtsian

The alternate name "Polvtsian" has been taken out of the introduction but the link for the term still directs here. Could people who know more about the subject decide whether this should be the case or whether the term is better directed here or to Palóc. If the decision is that it should link here, I think we need the term to reappear in the heading or it will be confusing.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I removed: The other Cuman group in Hungary is the Palóc group, the name deriving from the Slav Polovetz. They live in northern Hungary and current Slovakia and have a specific dialect. Their Cuman origin is not documented as is the other two Cuman territories, but their name derives from the above word. They have a very special "a" sound close to Turkish "a", unlike Hungarian pronunciation.

This is a mistake. Palóc group (and Matyó group) are slaven, they changed for Hungarian language. --89.133.129.67 (talk) 07:11, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Open Question

Please leave the question open until the origin of Kumani / Cumani is cleared. The place where this Wikipedia article shows their alkukoti = urheimat of Poljevoi was also inhabited by Obi (Great River) Ugrians, Hanti, Mansi and Hungarians. Of these three, Hungarians are placed in several Wikipedia articles to have lived also in south eastern slopes of Urali and the Hanti and Mansi north of them, mainly on the area following Obi and Irtish Rivers. Where they still lives today (2008). If Polovoi -> Polovetsi -> Polovtsi / Polovtsy people would have had only Türkic roots they would have include in their name reminiscences of Seber Ak (Sibir White) form in way or other, which would have connected them to Tatars. In fact, valkia / valkea / valgie is also Finno Ugrian name for white not susi (wolf). Then there is connection between names Kipchak and Sakaliba, the question far from solved. They can be also said to be Kuumanni (Moonman) what in turn could describe their skins light colour like ghost of moon. Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.115.5 (talk) 05:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Origin

According to my relative (and reknowned Anthropoligist) Richley H. Crapo, the Cumani were descendants of the Sarmatians of Iran. Just a thought. Richley is/was (I don't know if he's still kicking) an expert at Geneaology, and could trace anyone's ancestry based on disambiguations of their last names and two or three generations before. For instance, our last name is Crapo. He was able to deduce that Crapo is not an actual name, but a disambiguation of the french word Crapaud which means "Frog" or "Toad". Go figure, freakin' Ellis Island cutoms agents....who knows what the hell my actual last name is.

Shawn Crapo (talk) 22:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Depends what language Sarmatians spoke. Cumans were definitive Turks. 1) Codex Cumanicus with vocabulary survived. 2) in Hungarian Cuman words (like komondor = sort of dog, big white one) can be derived from Turkish 3) Tatars (Kazan and Crimean), Gagauz, Bashkirs still speak Turkish, although they changed name from Cuman and became Tatar from Gengiz Khan.

Sarmatians according to (weak) official theory spoke an Iranian language (see e.g. names at Ammianus Marcellinus for Iagiges and Alans), so they cannot be related (or change the theory-like Turkish historians do).

--Vargatamas (talk) 07:58, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Vargatamas is right. If you compare the vocabulary in Codex Cumanicus with the vocabulary of the modern Turkish spoken in Anatolia, the words are surprisingly similar. Even one can understand the riddles of Cumans, which is a strong proof that they were Turkic. --Defrim (talk) 23:57, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Kumaani Origin

If they have links to Sarmataie (Sarmaatti) people, then why Finno Ugrian languages have Sarmaatti and Kumaani presenting totally two different heimos (tribes)? There is exactly clear describtion in old European sources where the Kumaanis lived. It took ten days ride (daily 40 km with a good horse), or was it by kameli from Petsenakki to Kumaani. They appear c.1000 AD in Russian history living south of Murdasi (Mordvins) between Tanais (Don) and Itil / Rava (Volga), the southern neighbours of Murdasi Burtta tribe. In the area is only these remnants in topography of Kumaani, the river names; Rúdna, Sivin and Sherboda. If one can link these names to any Persian dialect then the connection is possible, otherwise not. Secondly, why the Kumaanis had, as Onogurs (Hungarians) with them Tibetan shepard dogs? There are several links by Hungarian and Finnish professors to prove in linguistic researches; the Kumaanis spoke one of the Obi Ugrian language which was close to Hungarian, but not Hungarian. That close they understood each other without any transliteration of interprayers. Thirdly, they brought with them also kamelis (Camelus bactrianus) from Itil area to Erdely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.175.146 (talk) 03:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)