Talk:John Donne

Revisiting Death Dates

The article introduction and the infobox contradict each other by nearly three weeks. Anybody know which is the real death date? --72.208.43.93 (talk) 05:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems unlikely that the Robert Drury linked to by this article (section on Donne's later career) is the correct R.D., since his death predates Donne's patron. --Lil Miss Picky (talk) 19:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Question

Should "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions" be written "Devotions upon Emergent Occasions"? As a preposition, one would think the "U" ought to be lower case, but in most places I see it capitalized.

No man is an Island

shouldnt the quote be "no man is an island"?

I assume the quote as displayed in the article uses the original spelling. I haven't checked this. It is a little confusing, and previous edits have 'corrected' the spelling; perhaps we should at least have a note about the archaic spelling. Or perhaps modernize it?? — Stumps 15:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The No Man is an Island passage from meditations xvii is very hard to read simply lumped together in a large box.... perhaps someone more linguisticly gifted could sort it out? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.156.247 (talk) 17:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

To His Mistress Going TO Bed

Some sources call this elegy 20 and others elegy 19. Which is definitive? Should this be addressed within the article

?Jayunderscorezero 11:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

From memory, I don't think there is a definitive number. The numbers are based on convention. Rintrah 13:00, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

True, most of the literature of this time does not exist in "definitive" editions, but in multiple ones that vary from printing to printing. The idea that there is a definitive and inviolable version of a text was still being hashed out during Donne's time. Themill 09:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

From what I remember, which comes from Helen Gardner's edition (I think), different versions are considered authoritative by different groups of scholars. Anthologists usually follow the received sequence, but some daring ones reorder the poems if they think there is a better scheme. The discovery of a new manuscript usually presents the problem of how it fits into the sequence. I recall many of his poems were not published in his lifetime, and so difficult to date and order for later anthologists. It is easier to identify his poems by their official title or their first line. Similarly, the works of Shakespeare, a contemporary of Donne, do not exist in single definitve versions because of the unreliable system of publication existing in his time. Rintrah 11:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Essex's Military expeditions?

I see that the first clause in following was deleted a while back ... "After taking part in Essex's military expeditions in 1596-97, he became secretary to Sir Thomas Egerton" What was the reason? — Stumps 17:39, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Eek!

This page needs a lot of help. Facts are super-sketchy.

needs to mention his fusion of sex and religion (batter my heart, etc) ought to reference "the bell tolls for thee"

but those would just be bandaids on the gaping wound that is this page.

Okay, well, if you think the page needs improving, then improve it. That's what Wikipedia is. But there is no work by Donne entitled "the bell tolls for thee" - I think what you are referring to is one line in Meditation 17, from Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions, "...and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." This is just one part of a much larger piece. Eriathwen 18:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Career in English

What does "The account of Donne's life in the 1590s from an early biographer, Izaak Walton, reminds him as a young rake. Scholars theorise this to be declining, since the account was given by the older Donne, after being obtained; he may have wanted to separate, more cleanly than was possible, the younger man-about-town from the older clergyman." mean - can someone translate this into English please -- SGBailey 21:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Quote

Done for not keeping of accent deserved hanging - Jonson. I don't agree with him, but when I heard it, I laughed.

Poetry

Very little is said of his poetry, other than a list of poems after the introduction. If it is mentioned in the introduction, it should be expatiated somewhere else in the article. Rintrah 13:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Travel to France

I have heard that Dunne's valeditions, especially the Valediction Forbidding Morning, are written not about death (as my english teacher so implied) but about literally leaving on work trips. Dunne apparently had a job as an estate executor in France, and had to go on many dangerous trips across the sea. This, or so I have heard, is why there are so many nautical references in these poems. Can anyone verify this? --Iriseyes 19:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Date of Death's Duel

Although the printed version of Death's Duel gives it's date as "Lent 1630", the date was really February 1631. This is because, at the time, the New Year was not celebrated until March 25. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.247.225.248 (talk) 23:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

Donne's uncle

I added some information to the article about Donne's uncle and his brother, both of whom were legally penalized for their Catholicism. The information about his brother was left alone, but the sentence about his uncle was deleted shortly afterward.

One of Donne's uncles, who was a Jesuit, was also executed for his Catholicism (the precise method of execution used was hanging, castration, disembowelment, and quartering).

So what exactly is the problem? Is the description of the execution method a little too detailed? Galanskov 04:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. You could reinsert it with a reference. Then any deletion would be clearly illogical. Rintrah 07:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think I'll do that. Thank you for the advice. Galanskov 15:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

There's a technical name (and a page) for that punishment, it's called hanging, drawing and quartering so I changed that. It's less explicitly gory now, too. Eriathwen 09:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Galanskov 04:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Reorganization of sections

I plan to reorganize the bibliography and critical works sections into one references section. That way it will be easier to add in a footnotes section. Any complaints? Galanskov 16:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Scratch that idea. I've just put my footnotes section and the critical works section into one references section. I'll leave the bibliography alone. Galanskov 16:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The material about Donne's uncle was just not really relevant at all. It doesn't relate in any insightful way to his life or work, or even the world of Catholic/Protestant conflict to which he belonged. The section on style is also repetitive, and a very simplistic explication of what are extremely complex, difficult concepts. Donne is renowned as one of the most "difficult" of all English poets and deserves a lucid, accurate and informative entry. I don't think a section on "style" is even appropriate in his case. By the way, does anyone know what happened to the perfectly acceptable image of Donne this entry used to have? User: Joe Nutt

The material is entirely relevant. It highlights the dangers of being a Catholic in Protestant England. These dangers would play a significant role in Donne's life, up until his conversion to the Anglican Church. The bad ends his relatives came to were probably constantly at the back of his mind. (I decline to comment on the style section, since I had no hand in that. I'll check up on that image for you.) Galanskov 00:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree about its relevance, but agree with your criticisms. I think the style section needs a succinct description of his style, but not with the pretence of definitive explication. He is more difficult to read than his peers, yes, but clearly not impossible. The section should only be short to avoid vagueness, simplicity, and repetiveness. Rintrah 08:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Is this the image you're refering to?

John Donne

I don't see anything wrong with it either. I'll do some more ferreting on the history page and see if I can find out why it was removed. Galanskov 00:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I found out some more. The image was removed at 19:30, 17 November, 2006, by User:Joe67Saint. Joe67Saint left no edit summary explaining his decision. I'll look through the talk page's history to see if he left any explanation there. Galanskov 01:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Joe67Saint never touched the talk page. I can see no cause for removing the image, so I'll put it back in. I'll also leave a message at Joe's talk page. Galanskov 01:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

My apologies. I removed the image because it was showing up blank when I viewed the page. It looks fine now. Perhaps it was entirely a mistake on my end. - Joe67Saint

That's okay, no harm done. Thank you for replying. Galanskov 02:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

What about the picture of him wearing the broad-brimmed hat, looking mysterious? That's the one most biogs use.--Shtove 21:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Found and added. Thanks for bringing in up. Galanskov 03:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Earl of Doncaster

The article describes Donne as going to Germany with the Earl of Doncaster in 1618. I was trying to figure out which 'prince of Germany' it was, so I could fix that red link. Germany itself never had a prince, there were lots of princes in different areas /regions, so I'll never figure out what prince, probably. But the title of Earl of Doncaster wasn't created until 1663 - see Duke of Buccleuch (which incorporated the title Earl of Doncaster) or Peerage of England ... either that's wrong, or this article is wrong. Proto::► 14:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I checked one the best web biographies, and it turns out that he was actually in the service of the Viscount Doncaster. If I recall correctly, I found the statement about the Earl of Doncaster in [smug grin] Encyclopedia Brittanica, or possibly Collier's Encyclopedia. Either way, it provides a rather cool example of one of the big traditional encyclopedias screwing up. Thanks for pointing that out, Proto. As for the matter of the princes of Germany, I'm pretty sure it was the regional princes that the Viscount was visiting. Galanskov 22:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Death date

The text lists his death date as March 31,35, while the infobox says it's March 12, 1631. Anybody know which is right? JordeeBec 16:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Dates of Poetry

I changed the poetry remark at the beginning of this article because his poems are hardly easy to date and remarking that they reflect his life stages is reductive. Perhaps they do, but many respected scholars do not believe this is the case as I have pointed out. Why keep changing it back to an assertion that leaves out the debate? I think highlighting the question makes it a more reliable article. comment was added by Kkateq (talk • contribs) 14:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Holy Sonnet or Divine Meditation

Two of Donne's most famous works are "Holy Sonnet 10" and "Holy Sonnet 14". I have also heard from Sparknotes that it is also called "Divine Mediation." Are these two names the same poems? Bdodo1992 (talk) 01:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Donne as Christian Kabbalist

The reference for this is:

• Albrecht, Roberta. The Virgin Mary as Alchemical and Lullian Reference in Donne, p. 30. Susquehanna University Press, 2005. ISBN 1575910942

Could one of the regular editors of this article please determine the best place to integrate this bit?

Bob (QaBob) 03:24, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Who the HELL is Joshua Adamson?

I met the name Joshua Adamson in the bio, and also two other bios, Tom Hanks and Stephen Hawking. Well, who the hell is that vampire, who was the life-long friend of men both in the 17. and in the 20. century, and about whom they wrote with the same sentence in each article?

I suggest it is a media hack. There is a Joshua Adamson, he edits the Urban Dictionary.com site. Also there is a science student Joshua, etc. Or maybe there is a bored teenager Joshua. Don't you think it is a very stupid way to advertise a name?

DJS (81.183.126.6 (talk)), 2008. 11. 29. —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:43, 29 November 2008 (UTC).

refs

If we had more refs to add and/or a bit more specific scholarly info, especially around the poems' content, we could get an upgrade. It's not so far off. Any Donne Officianados out there? Spanglej (talk) 16:18, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. As this article stands, quite a bit of the biographical material seems directly reproduced from a website called Luminarium; but those claims themselves are merely asserted, some are speculative, and none are referenced. I would say the article is not really up to standard, and should be tagged as in need of a good deal of cleanup. As well, the Schama program is simply not available in most of the world, and again, it's just somebody talking, with no sources or references. Much as I like Schama, I would feel more comfortable with a text version of his remarks that had actual references. One writer, for example, cited Schama as the source of the claim that Donne was Master of the Revels, which is completely false, ie, the writer misunderstood something Schama said. 140.161.86.159 (talk) 19:09, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Subheadings

I introduced some sub-headings. In the 27 May 09 edit I haven't deleted anything, but moved a little to go with new headings.Spanglej (talk) 16:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Donne's mother

Simon Schama, on a recent BBC programme on John Donne, mentions (i) that his mother sent him to Oxford when he was 12 and (ii) that she later fled to the Continent. This doesn't agree with the statement that she died in 1577 -- when he was 4 or 5. Can anyone comment? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.16.20 (talk) 08:45, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

vandalism

If you are going to vandalize this page you had better know how to spell "pancakes" correctly. 97.82.238.65 (talk) 16:51, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

adding Sylvia Plath's comment on Donne

I plan to add a comment Sylvia Plath made about Donne when she was interviewed on BBC radio in 1962. She was referring to a critic's review of her 1960 book of poetry titled "The Colossus." Does anyone object? Here it is.

"I remember being appalled when someone criticized me for beginning just like John Donne but not quite managing to finish like John Donne, and I felt the weight of English literature on me at that point."

The source is an audio clip from the BBC radio interview that you can hear in this 1988 documentary made for Public Broadcasting Service (PBS).

Voices and Visions television documentary

Is that a legitimate source? Earththings (talk) 02:14, 5 November 2009 (UTC)