Talk:Ayran

Comments

Comment

Is "Ayran" a brand name? If so, that should be stated in the article. If not, then it shouldn't be capitalized. —Michael Z. 2005-05-12 04:38 Z

not a brand name -- ZZyXx 21:28, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

Could you maybe explain the difference between Ayran and similar drinks, such as laban, koumiss, kefir and the like? --Iustinus 30 June 2005 06:49 (UTC)

i can't tell the differences for sure because i have drunk only ayran, but from what i've heard kumis is usually made of horse's milk. it is being left to fermentate without adding anything to the milk. the ready drink is slightly alcoholic. while ayran is made of alredy fermentated milk (usually bulgarian yogurt-it is pasteurized and then it fermentates because of the adition of the special bacterias it contents-this is usually made by adding a small amuont of ready yogurt to the warm milk) mixed with water. it is not alcoholic at all. something more - in bulgaria and turkey it is known to be the best drink to cure hangover -- Uf4ica 22 October 2005 16:59 (UTC)

Is ayran also available with mint in Turkey? I seem to remember having drunk something of the sort. Palmiro | Talk 23:17, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

i have no idea, i have never been in Turkey. Maybe someone who is from Turkey will tell us. It would be interesting for me too to find out --Uf4ica

No ayran is just yogurt with water & salt. If you put mint in it (preferably also garlic and cucumber) it then becomes cacik :)

Nah, cacik is thicker, not fluid like ayran, if my memory doesn't deceive me. I have drunk ayran with dried and crushed mint in the 'TRNC' by accident and it was called 'ayran.' I suggest we agree on removing the citations needed. :)--Paffka 20:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Cacik is thicker but should still be fluid. Of course, the amount of water you put in it varies with your taste. I've never drunk ayran with mint, but it is common to drink cacik with dried mint leaves. Maybe there are local variations though, like in Cyprus. Filanca 10:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Change

I've changed

(Bulgarian: мътеница, literally dreggy or roily liquid)

to

(Bulgarian: мътеница, literally dreggy or oily liquid)

as "roily" isn't a word I'm aware of, neither is "dreggy" for that matter, but it conjures up images of dredging so it might be appropriate. - FrancisTyers 14:35, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Near Eastern

What makes Ayran Turkish? It is drank throughout the near east... If its origin is written to be Turkish in a good source, fine, if not then the yogurt and water drink, no matter the name, is not Turkish. The same drink is sold throughout California as Tahn, the Armenian name. --RaffiKojian 13:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

yes the ayran is not turkish for sure - there is ayran in India too and they call it the same way - the name and the drink prolly comes from India and is very old or should I call it ancient.

The Wikipedia articles say that they are different, Tahn redirects to Doogh. Please see Doogh and Lassi. If what is in Armenia is Tahn, then we should delete Armenian references here. deniz 18:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

In Armenian, Tahn is commonly used to refer to what is called Ayran here, while Doogh is simply Tahn with gas. So Tahn works for both. They do not have Lassi in Armenia. I think Tahn is much better redirected to Ayran, and will make that change now. --RaffiKojian 18:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah thats true, Tahn is what is Aryan here, well the article. Artaxiad 19:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

What makes it Turkish is that it's made from yoghurt which is undisputedly Turkish. There's an inheretence here. If you dispute it's Turkish origin, then you need to supply non-biased sources. Not the other way around (it'sWP rules). Delete ALL other ethnic references untill then. --Oguz1 21:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Oguz, it is popular in other countries, as well. Supposedly it became an important part of their cuisine, so we should not delete them. It is not only about history. Also, yogurt being indisputably Turkish makes it very likely that Ayran has Turkish origins, but it does not prove it. --deniz 05:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Uhhhh....Coca-cola is an important part of just about every nation's "cuisine", so are Cigarettes, Ketchup, and a million other simple little recipes. I don't see the Armenian translation of Mustard on the Mustard page, do you? How ridiculous! --Oguz1 16:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's the difference between eating/drinking habits and cuisine (I guess it's considering the food/drink of your own), I don't know exactly where to draw the line between them (esp. in our globalized world), I guess biases will affect that a lot. Anyway, how about this version of the web page? (this was anonymous)

Is this a English Encyclopedia or is it a Dictionary of all languages? Looks like a dictionary to me with all bunch of different translations. I have never seen this on an Encyclopedia before - in any language. Has anyone seen this before anywhere? --Oguz1 22:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Turkish people do not own this, its popular among these people so there languages stay, Coca cola is no ones its not ethnically like "Ayran" or goes back Coca cola is new and others do not use it like this it is completely irrelevant. Artaxiad 00:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

This is not a dictionary. Just becasue it's popular somewhere else, we do not need the translation. Coke is ethnic "American" - even WP says so (The Coca-Cola drink has a high degree of identification with the United States itself, being considered by some an "American Brand" or to a small extent as an item representing America.) Turkish people do own Ayran. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oguz1 (talk • contribs) 14:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

OK now, let's get this straight - there is NO documentation that Turks invented this drink, AND Armenians have their own word for this drink - tahn. So what are you trying to say? It so happens that because there are few Armenians in the world (hmmm, I wonder why?), Wikipedia has this drink under Ayran, with Tahn redirecting here. It is just as reasonable to have had it under Tahn, and have Ayran redirect there. So if you would please stop trying to monopolize this drink as if it is only yours, it would be nice. Your apparent severe dislike of the Armenian script makes me wonder how you feel about your neighbors... --RaffiKojian 14:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Translations

How are these pronounced: Թան, Αϊράνι, аjрa, айрян . Would be nice to know. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.81.205.51 (talk) 22:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Թան is transliterated Tan, which is pronounced something like Tahn. --RaffiKojian 04:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Really this name thing is getting out of hand. Deniz^T_C 22:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Raffi, I am not at all convinced with the reliability of your website. Here, since it is just a recipe, factually it won't matter so much. But we have some problems. This possibly is a WP:OR violation; if it is sourced, just give the source. This is also a self promotion, WP:COI.

An archived link is fine, only the images are missing, we already have images. There are no images on your website either. It would be best to incorporate the links in the main text, as we can do it here. We should write the recipe and the source can be the archived link, but not yours due to WP:RS issues. Deniz^T_C 12:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• Թան: t'an
• Αϊράνι: ajɾáni
• аjрa: ajɾa
• айрян: ajɾjan

Sinek (talk) 22:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

doogh carbonated or not

it is written that Doogh is naturally carbonated. I think it is not true. in Iran there are bottled doogh which are carbonated but there are also doogh which are not. A home made doogh is is not carbonated. My conclusion is therefore Ayran= Doogh. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, but in the article doogh, it reads so. Could you make necessary changes in doogh? Thanks. --Chapultepec (talk) 20:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I would like to do, but I have not written that there. I just copy and paste our communcations in that page and let's see whether the original author changes it. If not I will edit that page myself. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, meanwhile I did some changes in ayran article as per our debate. --Chapultepec (talk) 21:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I saw your changes in doogh, I'll be doing the same in ayran. Thanks. --Chapultepec (talk) 21:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes I changed it, seeing the debate in Doogh`s talk page I became even more secure of my conclusion. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:17, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Unreferenced?

I don't know why this is tagged unrefed for so long. I'm tied up with a few things right now, so here are a few quick things I found. I'll try to incorporate these, but if someone wants to beat me to it, feel free!

• [1]
• [2]
• [3]
• [4]

Yngvarr (c) 00:37, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Alphabetical Order

I changed the names of countries to Alphabetical order and made sure there was proper spacing between them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.80.159.194 (talk) 14:56, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Merge with doogh

Why is there a separate article for doogh and another one for ayran? Doogh, tan, and ayran all refer to the same beverage. Chaojoker (talk) 16:29, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

you are absolutely right--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:51, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely? No, not at all. By this standard, kafir and lassi would also be so treated- or all merged into cheese or yogurt... or milk. They're all just milk, right? with a little culture in residence? They could all fit into a section of the milk article entitled 'cultured milk products'. That would leave a cumbersome article of reduced utility. The question is not 'are all these beverages related to varying degrees,' but 'would merging these articles increase the utility/value for the user?' Well, would it?Mavigogun (talk) 03:47, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Kefir is different. So is buttermilk. Doogh and Ayran, Tan, Do (Georgian), Mastaw (Kurdish) etc... are all the same thing. I am not sure about Lassi. They make it with mango juice, while Doogh/ Ayran is not fruity.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:50, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

The point is that there are degrees of difference. Ayran is not commonly fermented/carbonated, nor may one find it commonly spiced with pepper, or, as ayran, cucumber. Sure, it is common to prepare lassi with mango juice- but not as a rule; lassi -less fruit- would meet your standards for merger then? By that measure, doogh with cucumber would needs be separate. The common variance is key.Mavigogun (talk) 04:28, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

doogh with cucumber is not doogh. It is yoghurt with cucumber, similar to tzatziki and Cacik. Doogh and Ayran are not fermented. The ambiguity comes from the fact that Kefir (fermented milk) is also called Ayran by a few Turkic peoples. Ayran in the middle east, Turkey and Iran is the same as doogh. carbonation is not a rule. I have had homemade very sour (naturally carbonated) Ayran in Turkey and non-carbonated doogh in Iran. The bottled doogh in Iran are usually carbonated the same way as soft-drinks and soda's are. As a rule if you ask Doogh or Ayran in Iran, you get the same thing. About Lassi: I do not know. It is certainly related though.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 13:35, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The doogh article indicates that carbonation in traditional doogh is the product of fermentation; it also specifies that doogh sometimes is flavored with cucumber- in much the same way as lassi may include mango; these points are in direct contradiction to what is stated above. You most definitely don't normally receive anything carbonated when ordering ayran in Turkey. What are you suggesting causes carbonation in non-industrial doogh, if not fermentation? If the doogh article is incorrect/doesn't reflect citations, could you cite and edit the article to reflect those citations? You have suggested that editors have confused doogh with kefir; this isn't supported by the references given- in fact, it seems simply wrong. Check out the PDF 'external link' at the bottom of the doogh article- a report prepared by the government of Iran that declares doogh 'a traditional Iranian fermented milk drink.'Mavigogun (talk) 22:02, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I have to see it. Fermented milk drink is Kefir. But Karacahay and Balkar people call Kefir simply as Ayran. But what is called Ayran in Turkey and Iran is the same thing called also Doogh in Iran, Tan in Armenia and Do in Georgia. It is simply Water, Yoghurt and salt. Home-made doogh is usually not carbonated. The bottled doogh can be industrially carbonated or not. I have not seen industrially carbonated Ayran in Turkey, but a fat sour lightly carbonated Ayran, made by the doner kebab guy himself traditionally. That was cool. In Iran people may add flavor to it. It is up to their taste and not part of the essence. Pepermint, Dragon, Baslicum, wild garlic, roses, and other things might be added (not seen pepper though), It is usually done to make it look better. That thing with cucumber is not doogh, it is similar to Cacik. There is another thing, a kind of cold soup, called Ab-doogh-Khiar. It is Water, yoghurt, raisins and walnuts. That is typically a dish which is eaten with bread, white cheese, grapes and melon in the warm summertimes. Doogh and Ayran are used interchangeably in Iran. You can say bring me Doogh or bring me Ayran. You get the same thing. Ayran is a word of Turkic origin and Doogh of Indo-EuropeanPersian origin. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 06:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

According to the cited material, doogh (as appearing in Iran) and ayran (as used in Turkey) are not the same thing- independent of how interchangeable you have found the words used in Iran; I have never heard any reference to any flavoring of ayran in Turkey. Your rational for the addition of flavoring- that it is just for appearance, and therefore inconsequential in distinguishing doogh from ayran -is unpersuasive; the same article drafted by the government of Iran cited above indicates a list of accepted 'flavoring agents'. The combination of these two prominent features -fermentation and flavoring- distinguish doogh from ayran to a significant degree- as much or more than lemonade from sweetened water flavored by some other substance, be it fruit or herb. It is my judgment that the merger tag and suggestion should be discarded. If there is a compelling/usefull reason for creating a broader article, such as 'cultured milk beverages', then I suggest fielding the rational for doing so. Mavigogun (talk) 08:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Removed how cacik is made in Turkey

I have removed this statement:

In Turkey cucumber is cut into very small pieces and added to ayran or diluted yogurt with garlic to make cacık.

This in noway reflects the process to which cacik is made. By my understanding, the above implies that ayran is first made which then diced cucumbers are added. Although one can argue that ayran and cacik are the same consistency (which it isn't - many regions have their own versions) the process is completely different. cacik is prepared by first finely dicing cucumbers (or grating for the people in the 21st century), finely chopped (or grated) garlic, salt then strained meditation style yoghurt with water to dilute

Please feel free to discuss if you believe this is wrong --220.244.174.12 (talk) 12:38, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Kurdistan

kurdistan is not a country, its a geographical territory which is partly in turkey partly in iraq & iran. therefore i deleted it from the list of countries ayran is made in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.101.216.113 (talk) 14:57, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Kurdistan is included in the list of LOCATIONS (not nations) and is used to describe a region - just as with the Balkans, the Middle East, and Central Asia. This is not a venue for resolving political conflict or righting perceived social injustice.Mavigogun (talk) 02:38, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Bulgaria section edit (clipped from user talk page)

"Some Bulgarian subsidiaries of international food and drinks companies, like Danone, produce, and others, like McDonald's,[5] sell Ayran."

What I meant was that international companies trade Ayran - some, like Danone, produce it; Others - like McDonalds - sell it; Danone IS the international company - an example of such, not part of a list of sellers.

I am reverting your edit until we come to an agreement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mishobg12 (talk • contribs) 17:55, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Reworded to reflect the role of Danone; again edited for encyclopedic character, removed redundant wording, removed unqualified speculation. A list of resellers is of dubious value- however, availability at a global fast food company is noteworthy, speaking to its cultural prevalence. --Mavigogun (talk) 18:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Bulgarian spelling

The correct word in Bulgarian is 'айрян', 'айран' is illiterate. There are also official rules for transliteration so it becomes 'ayryan' in Latin letters, although 'airyan' would be quite acceptable (if 'ai' is considered diphthong).