User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Biased !

what kind of admins you have got ?

First they tried not to accept enthiran as the highest grossing indian film , when reliable sources were provided they went on to delete List of highest grossing Indian films List of highest-grossing Tamil-language films

done just to hide the real facts of Indian cinema ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rt sachin (talk • contribs) 23:44, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

For information: both of the above redlinks were deleted per Articles for Deletion, and both for lack of reliable sourcing. See here and here. In this situation, the correct remedies are to (a) provide reliable sourcing or (b) take the matter to WP:Deletion Review, although my own opinion would be that sources were insufficiently robust to sustain the validity of either article, and the deleting Admins acted correctly. Sorry, but that's the way it is. If Jimbo declined to intervene, that would not surprise me at all. Rodhullandemu 23:57, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Above user is the sock of the indef blocked user (for disruption, personal attacks, trolling) User:SyberGod. Has come back for a little more trolling--Sodabottle (talk) 04:06, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

It does seem a shame for us to not have an article or articles about the top grossing Indian films. I'd be interested in an article about that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:09, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Did Jimbo just propose List of top grossing Indian films? ;) Seriously, though, en.wiki seems to be the default Wikipedia for developing countries, and it would do us well to drop the colonial attitudes a bit. So what if somebody starts an article on an Indian actor, the sources for which are all Hindi? We have enough bilingual editors that we don't need to be concerned. This reminds me of The Missing Wikipedians. Throwaway85 (talk) 12:17, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

There is a complex background to these deletions, I suggest anyone interested check the relevant AfDs before making any assumption about why these articles were nominated. The key issue is that verifiable sources do not exist for Indian cinema box office income, consequently though estimates may be added to individual articles about Indian films, creating a large ranked list article consisting of dubiously sourced estimates of box-office income would fail our WP:V policy. There is an associated issue of the commercial copyright of such tables of estimates based on market intelligence (rather than financial statistics or repeatable models of income) and I would encourage feedback on the proposed draft guideline at User:Moonriddengirl/Copyright in lists. I am aware that these articles should be treated sensitively and encouraged due to the natural geographic bias of Wikipedia articles, however this must be balanced with copyright requirements and the need for a good standard of verifiability (particularly as there are a lot of hyped up publications from Indian film promoters that do not stand up to scrutiny, see the long history of Talk:Enthiran). Fæ (talk) 12:39, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Although I was thinking of it more as an essay (less fuss and bother), I'd encourage feedback on that, too. :) Copyright issues on lists are tricky. I'm attempting to get counsel feedback on the one in question here, since based on the attorney recommendations we've already received it seems that it is not copyright clear. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:52, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Most statistics in wikipedia are based on estimations, so i don't see the problem with using that kind of statistics. 190.51.151.235 (talk) 16:14, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

The problem is U.S. copyright law. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 21:00, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I did not get an answer at the removal discussion page from anybody there, so I ask you admins again. Could you explain me in detail why an anonymous source like boxofficeindia.com gets treated as reliable and verifiable enough to be placed in wiki? I understood, that newspapers cite them sometimes, but these newspapers just copy these numbers, because there have nothing else. If I had owned that domain, they would have cited my numbers, too, although I'm a nobody.

These dubious sites give very accurate lakh rupees numbers for the whole gross of a Hindi movie. 1 lakh is merely around 2.000 us dollars. It's a nearly perfect number! This is simply impossible to predict without machines.. in complete contrast to this, the official producers of Endhiran Sun Pictures couldn't get even exact numbers in crore rupees, where 1 cr is ca. 200.000 us dollars. They said, they made alltogether a minimum 375 cr, while others said 400 to 450 cr, a difference of many million dollars! Please explain your decisions..--Wangond (talk) 22:35, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I can see no benefit in rehashing on Jimbo's talk page the exact same explanations that were clearly spelt out several times in the AfDs and the list article talk pages. BoxOfficeIndia explains clearly on their website that their numbers are not based on any verifiable accounts nor estimated in any way that the estimates are repeatable by anyone else. It is not uncommon for contributors to confuse apparent precision with accuracy. Fæ (talk) 22:45, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

The last time I spoke to an associate counsel on lists, a few days over a month ago, she said, "Unless you know the criteria involved in creating the list, it is impossible to even gauge the potential of a court finding that it warrants copyright protection. And unfortunately, even if you do know the criteria, it is very hard to predict what a court will say (especially because the courts vary in their opinions in different circuits on this matter) when there is a degree of creativity involved. You are really only safe if the list is purely formulaic." --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 22:59, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

who is boxofficeindia? give me names, professions, company details.. you still don't get my question.. you won't give me an answer and ignore it. why? Is anonymous amateurish pseudo-professionalism part of any encyclopedia? I demand an explanation for this. Why don't you answer this question?--Wangond (talk) 23:25, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

This is boxofficeindia. If you want more details than that, I'm afraid you'll have to contact them yourself. Their contact information is here. If your question concerns why that source is reliable enough to be trusted, I'm afraid you may be at the wrong venue; the reliable sources noticeboard may be better for that. I typically do not mix my copyright hat with other works, and once the copyright question is resolved do not intend to interact with this article any further. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 23:43, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

The question went to Fæ. The information given at the about us site is zero, since not even one person is mentioned, who may be stand responsible for the content. And the email adresses are again shrouded in anonymity. I'm not willing to "investigate" the matter like a police officer. That's not my job. That's the job of wikipedia officials who approves these sites in deletion discussions. My question still is denied a proper answer. I don't know why it's impossible for you to understand that. I'm not asking to review the deletion. I'm just asking u guys why such crap is tolerated for Hindi films and a Tamil/Telugu gross collections site with official statements gets deleted ? Why this double standard and bias against South Indians?--Wangond (talk) 01:05, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Well, I'm not Fæ, but I'll see if I can clarify a bit. The people who administer deletion discussions are not "officials" in the sense that you may be thinking. Administrators do have some extra abilities (such as that of blocking contributors and deleting pages) and they are trusted to close deletion debates, but it is the community that determines these things. That is, administrators do their best to enact the will of the community as it is expressed in these discussions (keeping in mind the provisions of Wikipedia:Consensus). I've worked with the administrator who closed this discussion, User:Stifle, and I believe he does his best to be scrupulously fair. I do not believe he is operating off of any bias, but rather doing what he believes the community requires of him. (It is not his job, either, to investigate the matter like a police officer. Rather, the people involved in such debates need to persuade each other of these points.) Ordinarily, if you have questions about the closure of an AfD, you would begin by speaking politely about it with the administrator who closed the AfD. If you think that the closure was procedurally wrong, you may ask for review of that decision. But I would really encourage you to carefully read and follow User:GRBerry/DRVGuide before considering doing so. Alternatively, if after sufficient time you still believe that the source on which this article is based is inherently unreliable, you may wish to consider discussing the matter again. (I would probably ask for feedback about the reliability of the source at WP:RSN first.)

I'm sorry if you feel that these subjects are being treated unevenly. The discussions on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of highest-grossing Tamil-language films and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of highest-grossing Bollywood films (2nd nomination) went very differently, obviously. I am not familiar enough with the sources of either to really have an opinion on why that happened or whether that was fair. But I've seen articles that I thought were deleted for less than stellar reasons and others that I felt should be deleted which were kept. I know that it can be frustrating, but I do believe the model works overall. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 02:56, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Er, Wangond, I misunderstood the direction of your question. I put the article up for deletion because (as per my nomination) I believe it fundamentally does not meet the policy requirement of WP:V. The fact the the people supplying the numbers in question are anonymous, the numbers appear fabricated on guesswork and the site provides no real explanation as to veracity (apart from unsupported exultations that their numbers are incredibly accurate) was glossed over by the majority of opinions in the AfD because enough Wikipedian enthusiasts would rather overlook policy rather than loose an article they like (see WP:IAR). The outcome is not my doing or that of the closing administrator, it's just how consensus works on Wikipedia which I believe is for the good in the long term. The current issue of copyright is a separate discussion and not something that can be glossed over due to popularity. If you want to see better consistency for this type of list article I suggest you wait for Moonriddengirl's essay on list copyright to be issued and then consider running a request for comment if you wish to reach a meaningful consensus on how it should be interpreted along with WP:V for the dubious sources in question. Cheers Fæ (talk) 08:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

@ Moonriddengirl on wikipedia there are enough people to defend bollywood but not tamil cinema or any other Indian Film Industry ! if the sources were not good the article List of highest grossing Indian films should have been deleted before but when a tamil film hit the top jealousy took over few admins ! Rt sachin (talk) 18:15, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I really find it quite unlikely that there are many, or any, Wikipedia admins that would feel jealousy about the success of a Tamil film, or even know which films were Tamil and which were not. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:17, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Then why these pages were deleted soon after enthiran hit the top ? it just happened ? why no one bothered to delete when hindi movies were at the top ? Rt sachin (talk) 23:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

As the admin who closed Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of highest grossing Indian films I can assure I wouldn't even know the difference between Hindi and Tamil. As I stated quite clearly in my close, we cannot ignore the verification policy. It has nothing to do with the prejudices you imagine in others. It is often the case that a users attention may draw them to nominate several articles that share the same problems in a relatively short span of time. This is not indicative of a conspiracy or bias, it just means someone noticed a group of articles that share the same apparent flaw. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:13, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

no , look around , 1 admin had the set of pages under control for so long , on enthiran he denied the links of the producer's site calling it not a reliable source , later when Times of India link proved the gross is the best of all indian films he marked the whole set of pages for deletion !

first he didn't accept and reverted any gross change , when reliable links came up he had no option than to mark the set of pages for deletion ! and forced the delete with a mob ! how was that ? Rt sachin (talk) 00:29, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

It appears you are referring to me (not an admin by the way) and you are plainly seeing bias where there is none, try and stick to assuming good faith. Your claim about timing does not add up, if you check the talk page archive for Enthiran, the many, many unprovable claims that it had broken all previous records date as far back as October 2010. As for the Times of India "proving" box-office income, I'm afraid it really does nothing of the sort, it is just another unverifiable estimate but has been left in as a quotation from a national paper rather than a statement of fact. All I have ever done with Enthiran and some of the other articles is attempt to apply the verifiability policy consistently for a topic that tends to over-inflation of figures due to hype and spam from film promoters and film fans. As for prejudice, you may want to examine my contribution history and GLAM related interests to see how I am fully committed to encouraging Wikipedia articles about non-English topics to balance natural geographic bias due to comparative ease of access for English sources compared to other languages. Fæ (talk) 01:51, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

how long these pages List of highest grossing Indian films and List of highest-grossing Tamil-language films were present ? Rt sachin (talk) 06:14, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

The Indian list was created on 7 October 2010, the Tamil list on 16 April 2006. Fram (talk) 10:39, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Holiday

Careful readers will note that I'm going to be on a bit of a holiday for a couple of weeks. I'll still be around now and then doing a little bit, but not a lot of heavy lifting for a bit.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Have a nice holiday. -- 575Revolve Number and Word 13:28, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

And it would appear that congratulations are in order. Ivor Stoughton (talk) 16:11, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations Jimmy!!! :) Take as much holiday as you need. --Aude (talk) 23:25, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Have a happy holiday! :D Crystal Linux Talk to Crystal Linux... 18:16, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Grim situation

Dear Jimbo, please study all contributions of this user. They can tell you how grave is interaction between admins and users. He was treated like vandal, while he was not vandal. 178.63.168.228 (talk) 16:22, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps not a vandal, but certainly a troll, judging by the repeated edit attempts to complain at Talk:Main Page. Tarc (talk) 16:43, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Not even a troll, but person mistreated by admins acting like automatic bot. He wanted to put some redirect to users not approvable by Wikipedia, but approvable by Wikinfo. Victim even was accused of being nazi extremist, described here in earlier block log. 178.63.168.228 (talk) 17:05, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

In Re Abuse of Dr. Larry Sanger

I have opted to retire forever from this project and join the more credible project of Citizendium, where my new Associate of Science degree in Human Development might actually be useful to me as an editor in the areas of psychology and human development and counseling theories. I am shamed and appalled by the policies enacted on this wiki and its BRUTAL suppression of dissenting opinions. And I am sickened by your grabs for power and glory by re-writing history and claiming sole credit for Wikipedia, when the truth is otherwise. Dr. Larry Sanger's claim to co-foundership here is more credible than your claims of sole credit, and no not because he's the doctorate holder and you're not. I believe him because he reads more to me in my judgment more authentic about his feelings and he's more a straight shooter than you. Dr. Sanger also strikes me as more merciful than you and tends to keep Citizendium policy in line with the rights of freedom of expression guaranteed under US national and state laws and international law. So I hope you understand my reason to leave this project, forever. Farewell Mr. Wales. BushidoStudentAdept (talk) 21:14, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Just fair warning; they don't much care for personal attacks over there, even less so than we do here. Given that you're now indeffed for them, you may want to be more circumspect. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:57, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Hacking of my email accounts (for the record only)

Hi Jimbo, what I am going to write next is only for the record because I assume it is the first, and I hope the last incident of this kind on Wikipedia.

In the end of last year my email accounts were hacked. From the very beginning I suspected it was somehow connected to Wikipedia and/or Wikimedia Commons, but at first I was not positive about it.

Then silently watching the hacker activities on my account I knew it was connected to my editing of Wikipedia and Commons.

I hoped to catch the hacker, but eventually I decided just to get read of it, and changed my passwords.

In a few weeks after that I got email from alleged "gmail" services that requested me to email them my password in order to protect my computer from viruses. This email made me to believe that the hacker no longer had an access to my account, and I hoped it is the end of the story except it was not.

On January 12, 2011 I got a threatening email, in which somebody impersonated a member of Arbcom user:PhilKnight, and then on January 19, 2011 I was contacted on the matter of my alleged emails on my Wikipedia talk page. I was really glad, when I was contacted at my talk page because it became a great confirmation of the events that happened before.

I did report the hacking to IC3.

As I said in the beginning this post is only for the record, but if you'd like to get more information, I will be happy to provide it for you. Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 22:24, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Me too. I got sent some evidence about this, and it was quite disturbing. Anyone interested is welcome to ask for copies of the evidence from me, or as much as I have. It seems that some people saw themselves as above the rules of Wikipedia, which is rather sad. Anyway I don't see why this is any more relevant on Jimbo's talk page than the nice Japanese meal-tax person, but if others do then they are welcome to discuss it. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:30, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Seeking your opinion

Hi. I'll make this brief, since I don't want to take up too much space. A deletion review is underway here for the recently deleted article about the GNAA. Opinion seems to be brutally divided, and I don't think we're gonna hit consensus (the head count is 8 in favour of retaining the deletion, 7 opposed, and there's still the admins comments to come upon closure). Would you be kind enough to read the DR and add any comments you see fit to, since we're aiming for rounded stalemate right now. Thanks. BarkingFish 02:03, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Do you evade a tax?

You should talk with a licensed tax accountant if you think that you are nonsense.Harm reaches an unrelated user by your selfish act.--山吹色の御菓子 (talk) 06:09, 22 February 2011 (UTC)