Talk:List of enclaves and exclaves

organization

I bashed this together out of Enclave and Exclave, removing repetitions. I fully expect disagreement with some of my classifications, so go to it! —Tamfang 05:09, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the bashing. Putting the lists in a separate article has been needed for some time. --Jonrock 22:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't this list be a bit more interesting and useful if it was sorted by continent and country rather than "category"? Ebben 02:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Winn Parish, Louisiana

This seems extremely dubious. Under one of the main legal theories employed at the time of the U.S. Civil War, secession is illegal, so Louisiana never seceded, and thus Winn Parish remained part of Louisiana along with the rest of the state. Under another of the main legal theories, states have the right to secede, as they are sovereign entities. Counties, however, do not, so Winn Parish, under this view, remains a part of the sovereign state of Louisiana, and joins the Confederacy with it. Note that the former theory was certainly under operation in counties in a similar situation - the northwestern counties of Virginia, which were, until 1863, recognized to be part of "Virginia," which was still in the union. I think this example should be removed. john k 16:29, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

If pre-existing sovereign status is necessary to secession, the Declaration of Independence is void. I don't think any of the parties in 1861 would subscribe to such a theory, though Lincoln tried to have it both ways. —Tamfang 17:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Caber Kalesi

Caber Kalesi (Fort Caber, pronounced Jaber) is a Turkish enclave within Syria. The monument is considered part of Turkey see:http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caber_Kalesi Ybgursey 05:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Northwest Angle

I'm wondering if the Northwest Angle would be considered an enclave? It is a part of Minnesota that is only accessible by the rest of the U.S. by going through Canada. I'm not sure if it is an enclave because it is also accessible by boat. Point Roberts, Washington is a similar situation. --66.130.0.153 14:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Both are listed under "practical enclaves". —Tamfang 17:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

But wouldn't it be considered an Inaccessible District? It is not on exclave/enclave because there is no break in the US territorial waters between the Northwest Angel and the mainland, so it technically still touches the US, but you most go through Canada to reach it by land.

No, Practical enclaves and exclaves means areas that are connect to the motherland (usually by water) but which road access goes through a second country. Inaccessible Districts are areas that are connect to the motherland (usually by land) but only easily accessible by going through a second country (See Hyder, AK as an example). It is a slight difference but does exist. -- (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 19:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey Shocktm, can you put these definitions in the article? I didn't know what the distinction was until now. --Lasunncty 15:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I understand why it is called a pratical Exclave as opposed to an inaccessible district, but in the article it is stated that the Nortwest Angle is a penninsula, when it only has water on the south and east of it, the west is a border of Canadian land. The extreme southern portion of it could possibly be construed as a penninsula(even though it sticks out less then a mile into the water), but I don't think that qualifies the whole thing as a penninsula. Also, I am new to this editing and discussion thing on Wiki, if you could tell me how to post using atleast an "anonymous" tag with my IP address, i'd be very appreciative. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.8.94.87 (talk) 07:42, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

Too Many Examples!

It seems to me that it is not necessary to list every enclave/exclave that exists, no matter how insignificant. Perhaps we could limit the list to first- and second-level administrative divisions. --Lasunncty 19:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that these lists are starting to cruft-ify. I note that enclaves-that-are-not-exclaves are, at the municipality level, very common, and perhaps these should be axed from the lists unless they're particularly notable. For example, Lesotho and San Marino are clearly notable. The status of a large and well-known enclave-but-not-exclave such as Beverly Hills, California as an enclave within Los Angeles, California is debatably notable enough for the list. But enclaves-that-are-not-exclaves such as Narberth, Pennsylvania within Lower Merion Township, Pennsylvania (which, I confess, I added myself) would not make the cut under my proposed standard.

Exclaves are, to my mind, more interesting.Spikebrennan 22:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

for what little it's worth, I agree with Spikebrennan and have no objection to pruning the little-cities-in-big-cities. —Tamfang 04:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

If it's the case, it could be useful to keep the information collected in a section called maybe "minor enclaves and exclaves". It would be a pity to throw away all that's been collected... --Adriano 14:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Isn't this supposed to be a list page? john k 15:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not we keep the "minor" ones, perhaps we should sort the list according to the administrative level. (ie, "first-level subnational enclaves", etc.) Then at least the "major" ones would all be together for easy access. --Lasunncty 04:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I definitely agree on that. john k 14:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

We might end up breaking this list into several sub-list articles, just for the sake of readability... — Poulpy 09:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Practical En/Exclaves and Inaccessible Districts

I have cleaned up the true en/exclave lists, but before I (or someone else) work on the final sections, I think we need clear definitions of the terms "Practical En/Exclaves" and "Inaccessible Districts." More importantly, are they real terms, or just "consolation prizes" for pieces of land that don't quite qualify above (in which case these sections could be deleted)? Finally, if an area is listed above, should it be listed below as well? --Lasunncty 05:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Pene-enclave and pene-exclave are formal terms for these concepts, so I've modified the article to use them.

Nbarth (email) (talk) 00:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

From what I can tell, these two terms have almost identical meanings. I propose combining these two sections (or removing them entirely) unless a clear definition of both terms can be provided. There has not been much action on this since I made my post here almost four years ago (!). --Lasunncty (talk) 00:45, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

United Nations headquarters

This might be an extreme example, but the headquarters of the United Nations, located in New York City, is considered international territory, but is completely surrounded by the rest of the city. Anyone agree to adding this on the list? --Geopgeop 13:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The land on which the headquarters is built is still under soverignty of the United States ; its extraterritorial status doesn't differ from regular embassies. — Poulpy 13:47, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Roosevelt Campobello International Park

Does anyone know if Roosevelt Campobello International Park qualifies as an en/exclave?

I do not think it is. While both countries run the park, I doubt that Canadian sovereignty was given up when the park was started. (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 03:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone modify it: Rincón de Anchuras

Rincón de Anchuras is part of the spanish province of Ciudad Real, that is between the provinces of Toledo and Badajoz:

Omaha Airport

Is Omaha, Nebraska Airport a sub-national en/exclave since it appears you need to go through Iowa to get there?

No it is not. You can get to the airport form the rest of Nebraska without going thru Carter Lake, Iowa - The most convenient way may be thru there, but it is not the only way. Carter Lake, Iowa is listed here under Subnational "practical" enclaves and exclaves. (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 03:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

English/Scottish practical enclaves

Found a couple, as listed. Accessed via Multimap. Can anyone do a link? I haven't got a clue about computing, so Unsure how to do that. There also more 'practicals' in Wales, but I haven't got round to doing them. These are mainly farms near the Dee in North Wales. I think Scottish and Welsh enclaves are important for this article, as they are separate countries within the United Kingdom. There are plenty more in English and Scottish local government, too. RAYMI.

Nike

Should the headquarters of Nike recieve any mention? They are completely surrounded by the Beaverton, Oregon, but remain outside the city. --Max Talk (add) 04:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

San Ysidro, California

is not an exclave, but is connected to San Diego proper by a thin strip of territory in San Diego Bay. Deleting. Hmmm...I guess I should have pasted into the Practical section. Done.

Pennsylvania Enclaves

There are several municipal enclaves in western and central Pennsylvania:

Westmoreland County:

Ligonier Borough, surrounded completely by Ligonier Township

Laurel Mountain Borough, surrounded completely by Ligonier Township,

Seward Borough, surrounded completely by St. Clair Township

Cambria County:

Dale Borough, surrounded completely by Johnstown City (It is also part of a completely non-contiguous school district).

Ebensburg Borough, the County Seat, is completely surrounded by Cambria Township

Indiana County:

Indiana Borough, the County Seat, is completely surrounded by White Township

Armagh Borough, is surrounded completely by East Wheatfield Township.

These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head; I'm sure there are several dozen others.

I just checked and found only four counties, Union, Potter, Elk(?), Philadelphia County, where a municipality was not completely surrounded by another municipality. Most were boroughs surrounded by townships. Many, such as Indiana, Bedford, and Centre Counties have the majority of Boroughs completely surrounded by a single township.

There are also several townships that have non-contiguous territories, and one borough that I could find (White Oak Borough, Allegheny County).

I think it would be better if the entry just to say there are many municipal enclaves in Pennsylvania. Perhaps someone ambitious could add them to the individual municipality lists. They are certainly not limited to the southeastern part of the state.

--J. J. in PA 17:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Argentine/ Chilean Antarctic Territories.

These two countries regard their (otherwise unrecognized) territories as PROVINCES of their respective nations, rather than outlying territories. Despite the fact that these are unrecognized by any other nation, these, I believe should be listed in the exclave section, with an accompanying note. I am aware of all other nations' Antarctic claims, these differ in an EXCLAVE sense, as they are not 'provinces', but overseas territories, in the respective opinions of other claimants. The aforementioned South American nations' governments regard their claimed Antarctic to be inherent parts of their states. I am also aware they overlap......... RAYMI 80.68.39.212 10:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

French overseas departments

Shocktm has stated that "Island do not count as exclaves unless they are in the territorial water of another country." It seems to me that this would only preclude them from being enclaves, but they could still be exclaves. My thinking on adding Guadeloupe, Martinique, and Réunion was that their territorial waters were not contiguous with the rest of France. The same is true for French Guiana. I wanted to get consensus before I made any additional changes. --Lasunncty 17:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Island by there very nature are exclaves and general are not listed. Many countries have islands that are outside of the 12 nm Territorial waters limit or even outside the 200 nm Exclusive Economic Zone limit. If you just count the entities outside the EEZ limit you would need to add Hawaii, Easter Island, Canaries, Azores, Bornholm, Galapagos, etc. - at least two dozen places by my quick counting. Figuring out all of them would be difficult (one would have to place a standard, which is always debatable) and could be considered WP:OR as I do not see a list out there that lists them. -- (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 00:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Anchuras, Spain

You have other here:

[1]

Anchuras is part of the spanish province of Ciudad Real (At its northwest), situated between the provinces of Badajoz and Toledo.

Subnational enclaves which are not exclaves | Louisville, Kentucky

This section is now disproportionately long. Any objection to trimming it to simply read:

In Kentucky, when the governments of Louisville and Jefferson County merged in 2003, a bewildering array of enclaves was created, as all other incorporated cities in Jefferson County retained their status as separate cities (reference)

Spikebrennan 17:01, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Prasat Preah Vihear

In "Inaccessible Districts" Cambodia's Prasat Preah Vihear should be included. It can only be approached through Thailand. The World Court disallowed Thailand's claim in 1957. Thailand was so sure it would win the case that it allowed ownership go to arbitration rather than remain as disputed territory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.136.71.55 (talk) 11:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Saint Pierre and Miquelon

The French islands of Saint Pierre and Miquelon were in Newfoundland waters until 1949 and since then in Canadian waters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.136.71.55 (talk) 12:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Marble Hill, Manhattan

A section of the New York City, NY, USA Borough of Manhattan (and, thus New York County), that was separated from the island by the construction of a canal, and later joined with the Bronx Peninsula. Now even though it is physically attached to the Bronx and uses the Bronx' divisions of the NYPD and FDNY and has a Bronx area code and postal Zip code, it is still, technically, considered part of Manhattan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.197.237.135 (talk) 22:59, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

practical enclaves and waterways

It might be pointed out that the German city of Konstanz to the south of the Rhine has no "land" border with any part of Germany, being surrounded by Switzerland; it is linked to the rest of Germany by a bridge; the same applies mutatis mutandisto the Swiss town of Stein am Rhein which only has a bridge connecting it to the rest of Switzerland, being otherwise surrounded by Germany. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.173.176.244 (talk) 14:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Local enclaves and exclaves

The listing of enclaves and exclaves (and especially pene-enclaves and pene-exclaves) at a subnational level has gotten out of hand. There are too many of these for Wikipedia to have an exhaustive list. I think I could find half a dozen more just in Los Angeles County. The Kentucky Bend is notable. Nothing else within the USA rates inclusion in this article, save broad statements about Indian reservations and such.  Randall Bart   Talk  06:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Dubrovnik

Dubrovnik is listed as both an enclave and pene-enclave. It can be argued whether it is a proper pene-enclave or not, but it is obvious - even from the text of its "enclave" listing - that it is not an enclave. (It borders two foreign states and a sea.) So I'm removing it from the enclave list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.155.151.233 (talk) 19:52, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Kyrgyzstan

Need local expert to check Qal'acha and Khalmion. I don't know which is right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benjamin Trovato (talk • contribs) 19:03, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Chalet des prés

Chalet des prés is listed in the inacessible districts section. However I cannot find any reference regarding these two buildings. Can someone help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gentleman wiki (talk • contribs) 21:25, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

northern ireland, and other places

Could northern ireland be considered an exclave of the UK? And if not, why on earth not? Speaking of which, what about the Argentinian part of Tierra del Fuego? Or Kaliningrad Oblast - I know this is mentioned in the article, but shouldn't it just be an exclave that's not an enclave? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Finlay (talk • contribs) 12:44, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

'claves in fiction

Would a section on fictional 'claves be worthwhile? I have in mind Passport to Pimlico and The Diamond Age. —Tamfang (talk) 04:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Narvik

• "Close to Narvik in Norway, a road enters Swedish territory. It does not connect with any other Swedish road before it enters Norwegian land once more."

Since the road is linked with other Norwegian roads, this seems more like a territorial dispute to me... KingM (talk) 07:55, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Have you evidence that Norway claims the land around the road? If not, it's not a dispute. —Tamfang (talk) 20:58, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Never heard of such a dispute. After all there are no border checkpoints between Norway and Sweden so it really does not matter. As a matter of fact there was once a small Swedish village (I do not remember the name) which was only accessable from the Norwegian side of the border. It was the only place in Sweden where road traffic at that time flow on the right side. I think it was connected with the Swedish road network shortly before the switch-over to right-side driving in 1967. But they did not have to make two switch-overs. --Muniswede (talk) 21:21, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Liberty Island and Ellis Island

By the definiton provided in the lede of this article both Liberty and Ellis Island are exclaves/enclaves of NY in NJ. Are they somehow different from the 1st entry on the page? (below) One is surrouned by territorial waters, while the other surrounded by territorial land. As now written it would be correct, or is there some aspect that would make the statement untrue?

• Argentina — Isla Martín García (34°11′S 58°16′W) is surrounded by Uruguayan territorial waters in the Río de la Plata. In addition, the Argentine islands of Apipé (27°30′S 56°54′W) and Entre Ríos are surrounded by Paraguayan territorial waters in the Paraná River, as are some small islets.

No, they do not differ from this or any other entry on the list. You notice that in this entry for example, It does not begin with "Argentina-Uruguay/Paraguay" or something similar. The pieces of land here belong to Argentina, so only Argentina is used for the beginning of this entry. In the same way, Liberty Island and the original portion of Ellis Island belong to New York, so only New York was listed. The description that follows is where the rest of the information gets placed. By rewording the entire entry, you have removed the link with the map and the information about the counties (higher-level administrative divisions than cities). If you want to add the information about the cities, that is fine, but do not remove the other information that is already there. --Lasunncty (talk) 07:50, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Russia

There are three pene-exclaves of Russian territory which can be accessed only via the Lithuanian town of Vištytis. The border is officially undemarcated, and there are proposals to change the boundaries around this area.

http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=54.4475861&lon=22.7102852&z=13&l=24&m=h - there are no exclaves at all, also no talks about boundary change. So, I think this sentence can be deleted. User:Jaspis from lt.wikimapia.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.100.205.18 (talk) 20:58, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

This sentence was added on 15 Feb 2007 by user:80.68.39.212 (talk), citing www.geosite.jankrogh.com. After a quick search of the site, I found this page which I suppose could be out of date by now. Is there any way for someone to verify it or show that the border has been moved? --Lasunncty (talk) 03:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Embassies are not temporary exclaves

They're extraterritorial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.68.197.211 (talk) 23:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

the meandering Muddy

I'm scrolling through topo maps of the Mississippi (on mapper.acme.com) looking for places anomalies in State boundaries. The northernmost one I've found is in Madison County, Illinois, just above the Missouri confluence. Dunno if that's worth mentioning. —Tamfang (talk) 21:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

The northernmost inhabited example is Kaskaskia, Illinois. —Tamfang (talk) 21:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Gantanimo Bay

where would Gitmo fit in the definision of enclave/exclave if at all? Its seems to be an extra territory, but I have seen some maps reference it like an enclave like Alaska. Need some clarification, and were would other overseas territories/claims of the USA and other nations fit?--71.236.0.245 (talk) 07:36, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

See Guantanamo Bay Naval Base. It's a "perpetual lease". Cuba remains the theoretical sovereign, though US has jurisdiction. —Tamfang (talk) 02:40, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Grand Isle, Louisiana

Would Grand Isle be considered an exclave of Jefferson Parish? Grand Isle is located across Barataria Bay, which I'm guessing would be considered to be state waters. The only access to Grand Isle via land is through Lafourche Parish. Gregdanielsonjr (talk) 15:40, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

The USGS topo map doesn't show a hole in the county, and I've never heard of a piece of a State (other than Alaska) that isn't jurisdictionally part of some county. —Tamfang (talk) 07:52, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Er, county-equivalent. —Tamfang (talk) 07:59, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I suppose it would arguably be one, although the state waters thing is questionable. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:56, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Definitions of enclave and exclave

The definitions need to be improved. There is no minimum or maximum size for an enclave or exclave. If the definition is met that is all that is needed.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 11:51, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Size has nothing to do with it. Do you have proof that these villages are not part of the TRNC? That's what an enclave would need. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:08, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

They are ethnically not a part of the TRNC. Moreover, the "exclave" is politically connected to the Republic of Cyprus (by voting) and by funding. The TRNC does not fund the schools in Rizokarpasso. Nor did it pay for the electricity for Rizokarpasso (for the majority of the time since 1974).  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 14:16, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Ethnicity has little to do with modern states. In addition, voting does not make something an exclave, neither do political connections or funding. Embassies are run through the politics of foreign governments, but they are not exclaves. An exclave is a defined area which is jurisdictionally part of a territory it is not connected to, such as the Cypriot towns in Dhekelia. These greek villages are not exclaves by any POV, the TRNC considers them to be full parts of the state, even if the inhabitants are not granted full citizen rights. Cyprus considers them to be a full part of Cyprus, along with the whole TRNC, and therefore not exclaves. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:21, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

If they are not enclaved or exclaved ... why are they called "The Enclaved". That is what they have been known as since 1974.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 13:35, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I reckon it's a poetic term based on the idea of an enclave, as an analogy. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:59, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

South Korea

Yeonpyeong Island is 12 km or 7.5 miles from the North Korean coast, and Baengnyeong Island is 17 km or 10.5 away, putting both of them within North Korean territorial waters (22 km or 12 miles). Both are very far removed from Ongjin County, Incheon, South Korea, the subdivision that they are a part of. Would they be considered exclaves for the sake of the article? --74.103.150.125 (talk) 08:42, 7 June 2011 (UTC)