Talk:Islamism

Islamism in London

This used to be a separate article but after a vote it was moved here as a section. Wikipedia prevents it from becoming a separate article since the vote has been made against it. Trouble is, it's quite long, and this article is already too long. I'm going to summarize it and put a main article link to Londonistan (term)

Here's the summary --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:14, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

For those who object I suggest they create an Islamism in Europe article. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:59, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced material: "Islamic Flag"

Not only this so called "Islamic Flag" is out of place, but the whole description and meaning of it seem to be taken out of some B-movie involving a stereotypical plot about "terrism". Either provide sources that it is indeed an "Islamic Flag" and that the description is true, or it will be deleted in accordance to WP:NOCITE. --Kray0n (talk) 11:18, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Islamism should be subsumed under the "Left-Wing" category

According to the same principles of notability and common agreement as applied to nazism being right-wing - popular tendency is to put islamism on the left wing of the political axis, and because Wikipedia is not a matter of original research, this tendency should result in Islamism actually being counted as left-wing on Wikipedia as well. The argument can be lifted verbatim from the article about nazism being right-wing. Maybe someone who knows the system here better can make the required changes, although I can provide references to individuals calling Islamism left-wing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.143.136.254 (talk) 21:31, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

What? --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Trimming

I trimmed this from the Islamism#Relation between Islam and Islamism section

Scholars like like Javed Ahmad Ghamidi have argued that all the actions of the Prophet Muhammad do not form an example for Muslims to follow, a sunnah. He holds that the da'wah (preaching and propagation) by a Messenger of God has targets defined by God and are specific to him. The role of the individual believer, the scholars and even a state with Muslim domination is different from that of a Prophet. The Prophet can after making the message clear to his addressees, under God's direction, fight the rejecters of the message. The Qur'an, after this stage in the Prophetic mission of Muhammad, did not leave the polythiests of Arabia with an option to live and adhere to polythiesm. They were to be executed if they did not enter Islam. This option is not available to any after the Prophet since no one can know who is rejecting the Message knowingly for no one is in a position to interact with God and no one receives revelation from Him.Political Canon of Islam

Reason: The article is already very long, the author is not particularly notable, and the text better belongs in Criticism of Islamism or Political aspects of Islam. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Central figures

An anon poster keesp adding Ismet Özel as a central figure of Islamism. He is an elected leader of a large country, but his he influential as an islamist? Does anyone have a source stating he is a central figure? In the mean time I'm deleting it again. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:44, 16 December 2009 (UTC) Whos saud Al Qaeda is Islamist, or have any relation with islam? Wikipedia in my eye is losing its respect, its so racist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.110.121 (talk) 12:55, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Better Criticism Section Needed

Okay, this article is pretty dumb as it is. It should be linked with other racist and imperialist terms like Cracker and White Trash. The criticism section should not be a criticism of "Islamism" as a movement, which doesn't exist, but a criticism of the simpletons who coined this term in the first place. The word "Islam" itself means "submission". Sure, there are Islamic people -25 percent of the world, the world's fastest growing religion, etc.... But someone who subscribes to Islam is a "Muslim" -i.e., "one who submits". Okay, so some non-religionists and Christianists on Fox news and CNN use the term "Islamist" everday -doesn't mean its not a bigoted stereotype. This article should not be deleted, but should be put in the category of stereotypes and hate-speech. Remember, as Edward Said points out, there is a long history of purposivly mislabeling Muslims -who were for centuries called "Mohammedans", just as much of the media refused to call Cassius Clay by his real name Muhammad Ali. Lets rewrite the criticism section here and make sure readers know that this terms is a wilfull misrepresentation and not a description of anything at all. Teetotaler 5 January, 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.67.81.197 (talk) 17:51, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

As the article says, al jazeera uses the term islamist. Are they simipletons and racists? --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:12, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

African-Americans often use the term 'nigger' to refer to themselves, that doesnt stop the term from being an ethnic slur. Similiarly, al jazeera using the term islamist to refer to themselves doesnt validate the use of the term as a non-racist term. 203.128.4.254

What validates it's use as a non-racist term is that "Islamism" refers to a political movement, not a race. Aside from that do you think there is a difference between gangsta bad boy talk and one of the leading world news agencies? Do you think an influential political movement of Muhammad Iqbal, Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, Abul Ala Maududi, Sayyid Qutb, Hasan al-Banna, and Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, deserves a term to describe it? --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:34, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Islamism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:12, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

edits by 95.147.234.97 in lead

I deleted edits by 95.147.234.97 (and he has restored them) as they are unsourced opinions, the topic (of diversity in Islam and Islamism) is already covered, and the article is already very long. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:25, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Radical Islam

Why does Radical Islam redirect here? Is there no way to distinguish violent Jihadists and the poltics of Al Queda from other more moderate Muslims? Bachcell (talk) 00:19, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

(I fixed your link.) Because someone created it as a redirect to here, plain and simple. Should someone wish to turn Radical Islam into a separate article from this one, possibly as an offshoot of this one, then it will be otherwise. —Largo Plazo (talk) 03:04, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

This is racist, how come all the citations are from christian sources? HUH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.110.121 (talk) 12:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC) How about radical christianity and jewish? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.110.121 (talk) 13:06, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Accusations of Islamism

An editor can't pull out a quote by someone, and accuse the quote of being Islamist. A reliable source needs to have made that allegation.

This is the same as pulling a quote from Daniel Pipes, and putting it at Islamophobia as an example. A reliable source needs to have made the allegation.Bless sins (talk) 11:55, 26 March 2010 (UTC) All the refrence are from outsider source, all biased

"Bigotry" section

Amanisa please stop putting this section in the article.

NYT: Bigotry in Islam, The Islamic world represses women, spawns terrorism, is prone to war, resists democracy and promotes bigotry against Jews (anti-semitism) [180], The Daily Telegraph: Islamic bigotry, In revealing that violent, intolerant prejudice continues to be preached, even by women, in centres of "moderate Islam." [181] ....

This is an article about the political movement Islamism, not the religion Islam! Your text is not written in wikipedia format and not encyclopedic. --BoogaLouie (talk) 14:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Please stop your edit war, it's highly relative. This is about 'Islamic activism' AKA Political Islam, AKA Islamism. It's written in encylopedic form, though some improvement can help...

Not sure I follow your real "objection"? Is it that you prefer us to insert this valuable information in the Islam page?

If you want more info about Islamic bigotry, we can provide more.

AmAnisa (talk) 23:38, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

This is absurd. Edits must be based on consensus. AmAnisa was bold[1] (a good thing). BoogaLouie disagreed with the edits (meaning that no consensus existed) and so reverted the edits, requesting that the suggestions be posed on the talk page. That, as far as I can tell, is where we stand. AmAnisa, I have reverted your edits; please take your ideas to the talk page. Let's please avoid resorting to dispute resolution.  dmyersturnbull  ⇒ talk 02:26, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Presently, AmAnisa's section on bigotry remains.

I object to the section for three primary reasons:

1. It is not, to my knowledge, a significant component of Islamism, which is political Islam. BoogaLouie is correct; the section addresses bigotry used in conjunction with Islam, not any component of Islamism. The section never addresses Islamism, failing even to use the term. The second sub-section even begins by introducing "Islamic bigotry". Meanwhile, the section fails to assert any relationship between Islamism and bigotry coupled with Islam.

2. Your edit is entirely non-neutral and seems dedicated to painting Islamism in an overtly negative light. The quotations are entirely opinion, and your section uses neologisms such as "jihadi". It reads almost like a this-is-why-I-think-Islam-is-bad section. I see no statistics, no facts, and no opposing perspectives.

3. The citations are garbage. Editorials and random blogs do not constitute legitimate sources. Thanks to your edits, I now know who Mark Humphrey is, but his opinion on Islam is not relevant to an encyclopedic article on Islamism. Neither is Christopher Hitchens's. With the possible exception of #197, not a single source is credible; they're all blogs and editorials.

If you verify the relevance of bigotry in Islam to the Islamist movement using reliable secondary resources, I'll help add a section on bigotry. Until/unless an clear link is demonstrated by a legitimate source, I think it should be removed entirely.  dmyersturnbull  ⇒ talk 05:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Agree that the sources are not reliable. Also, I don't see the sources accusing Islamists directly (they make broad comments about Muslims and Arabs). Perhaps, with a lot of caution, this material can be moved to articles about the authors (to show what the author's opinions are of radical Islam, bigotry, racism, Arab-Israeli conflict etc).Bless sins (talk) 17:43, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Good. Some of the referenced authors have WP entries already, including Mark Humphrey and Christopher Hitchens, so their ideas on Islam and Islamism can be added there. Also, perhaps some the content, if properly cited, could be added to Criticism of Islamism. The new section has certainly trespassed on POV territory and does not comply with WP:CITE.  dmyersturnbull  ⇒ talk 06:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Guys, I don't see anything with criticizing the undisputed bigotry in Islam, that user did not post it in Islam, which makes it even more moderate and less contentious. If someone has a problem with markhumphrey, still doesn't make it unreliable. why do the pro-Islamism keep on in the edit war while no consensus was reached?190.122.171.58 (talk) 21:50, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it looks like consensus HAS been reached...see above. --Alan (talk) 00:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

AmAnisa has been blocked as a sock of User:Toothie3. It wouldnt surprise me if this IP were the same user. nableezy - 23:20, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Yep. 190.122.171.58's very first edit[2] was re-adding the bigotry section, which happened immediately after AmAnisa's block. Its second edit[3] was this comment. Its third edit[4] was re-adding the bigotry section, again. Looks awfully suspicious.  dmyersturnbull  ⇒ talk 17:24, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Request - Pakistan movement

This article does mention even smaller movements, but fails to mention the Pakistan movement and the resultant blood-soaked partition of India. Without doubt, Pakistan movement is one of the most quintessential pieces of islamism in all of history. I am not used to this editing stuff, so i request editors to please see to this. 117.204.80.116 (talk) 19:29, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Christianism, Islamism, Judaism

Hi, fine to use term like "Islamism" and "Christianism" to represent political movements within these religions, if we do the same also for "Judaism", Buddhism", "Hinduism" etc.

However, you will notice that for other religions, the suffix "-ism" in no way carries a political connotation but rather describes the lump sum of religious content within the religion. E.g. Judaism (V. 13.10.2010, 12:12) "Judaism is the "religion, philosophy, and way of life" of the Jewish people." And Buddhism: Buddhism is a religion and philosophy encompassing a variety of traditions, beliefs and practices, largely based on teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, commonly known as the Buddha (Pāli/Sanskrit "the awakened one").

By contrast Islamism: "Islamism is a set of ideologies holding that Islam is not only a religion but also a political system, and that modern Muslims must return to their roots of their religion, and unite politically." And "Christianism" as above.

Shouldn't we be more consistent in application of the suffix "-ism"? And preferably use it only to apply to a body of religious content, as opposed to political movements, to avoid confusion.

To be consistent I have also added this discussion to the "Christianism" page.

There is criticism i Islamism, and radical Islam, but no criticism in radical christianity, or christianism, Wikipedia is so racist and annoying — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.110.121 (talk) 13:00, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

--Musa Emre (talk) 10:35, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Musa Emre - I see point. Potentially someone with a negative POV regarding Islam wrote this lead. What you really have to do though is find a variety of reliable sources on this issue and see how they define the word. NickCT (talk) 12:18, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Please see Islamism#History of usage for clarification. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:39, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

The English language is not always logical or consistent (Why "rapist" and not "raper"? Is rape an ideology with theorists?) The issue is that there is an ideology of Islamism and it needs a word, even if the people professing the ideology do not like the use of that word. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:47, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I've restored a short paragraph in the lead that was deleted that contains the sentence "Islamism is a controversial term and definitions of it sometimes vary." --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:54, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Contested word

The terms Islamist" and "Islamism" are problematical because: --They are almost entirely used by outside critics and are not accepted by their target. Therefore they are not neutral terms. --They have no agreed on definitions --They are most often used with progandistic intent. Note the fact there is no term "Christianist" in common usage even though there is a similar (though much smaller) movement among Christians. This nonparallelism partly reflects the fact that speakers who use the term "Islamist" are overwhelmingly from Christianized countries. We do need a term for politically mobilized fundamentalist Islamic ideology, and unfortunately there is no alternative term that is in wide use. At the very least this article needs a separate section pointing out how problematic these terms is. The section on "relation with Islam" touches on these issues but has the wrong header for such a discussion. Burressd (talk) 18:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Please read Islamism#History of usage, comment above and revised lead for clarification. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:40, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Hizb ut-Tahrir

We need citations as to which cou ntires this group operates in.Slatersteven (talk) 16:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Weasel tag

WP:Weasel tag was added in September 2010 but ther has been no specific discussion of what problem it refers to ... unless you include complaints above (Christianism, Islamism, Judaism and Contested Word) about the term Islamism itself and there not being an eqivalent article on Christianism in wikipedia. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:43, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Islamic fanaticism

Typed in "islamic fanaticism" and got redirected here... WTF???? --Spmoura (talk) 14:05, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

There is no article yet about the 'green corridor' (in the Balkans)

Those possibly interested could base themselves upon this article written by Srđa Trifković ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sr%C4%91a_Trifkovi%C4%87 ) at http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/05/green-corridor-in-balkans.html .

I'll also put a link to this suggestion on the discussion page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sr%C4%91a_Trifkovi%C4%87 . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.208.90.139 (talk) 07:44, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Dialectical Logic of Islamists

Dialectical Logic of Islamists (i.e., of the Lost):

Dialectical logic is found in the core of Eastern and Western thought. It is a common flaw to the human species. Although the various human cultures have developed their own methods of using this flaw, it is not simply a cultural defect. However, since each culture uses this flaw to to defend and to define itself, every attempt to correct the flaw is perceived to be an attack on the culture itself. Islamists are particularly sensitive to this perceived attack; because the dialectical Absolute of the Koran is found in the attempt to synthesize the Old and New Testaments (i.e., "the Book"). --FinalNotice (talk) 19:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)