Talk:Energy Catalyzer

Cup of tea

Who knows what Bushnell was referring to when he used "which is far more than enough heat to boil water for tea." in his interview to describe Rossi's e-cat ? --POVbrigand (talk) 21:26, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

About half-way down this page Douglas Morrison asks for a cup of tea [1]. "Morrison recalls that Pons, in a 1989 interview, had shown what he said was a small cold fusion boiler: "Simply put," Pons had explained, "in its current state it could provide boiling water for a cup of tea." Each year at the cold fusion conference Morrison politely asks, "Please, may I have a cup of tea?" Olorinish (talk) 12:33, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I also found it in "Warming up to cold fusion" by Sharon Weinberger. Morrison used to say it at the CF-conferences. She also mentions that Park used the phrase too. And I found that Richard Garwin was quoted saying it (in "Cold Panacea" by Charles Petit). Quite interesting that Bushnell uses just that same phrase.

Off-topic

It is of course my personal OR, but in his words I read a bit of mockery at the expense of the old CF-critics. I'll even go so far as to completely SYNTHesize the idea that mocking the CF-critics could indicate that he is quite convinced he is right. --POVbrigand (talk) 13:43, 19 August 2011 (UTC) I am curious, how many more years do you think it will take before someone makes a cup of tea by heating with energy from cold fusion? Olorinish (talk) 01:24, 20 August 2011 (UTC) I think they already did, but I wasn't there, so that doesn't really convince me. I truly believe they will be able to serve the CF-critics their long awaited cup of tea before Max Planck's prediction about scientific advance materializes. But I also think the CF-critics will argue that it is not tea --POVbrigand (talk) 13:26, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Before we drift of: I think it would be interesting to explain to the reader how the phrase is used in relation with cold fusion and add some words to the Bushnell quote. IMHO it would make the whole story more interesting to read and at the same time it would give the reader some insight on the critics. --POVbrigand (talk) 15:39, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

POVbrigand, I collapsed this section as off-topic. I suggest you read WP:NOTFORUM, along with WP:OR and WP:NPOV. We are not going to put meaningless speculation about making tea in the E-Cat into the article (unless of course WP:RS do it first, which seems unlikely), so this discussion has no place here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:47, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

The use of the phrase is interesting for the article. --POVbrigand (talk) 17:39, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

No it isn't, unless it is discussed in WP:RS as 'interesting'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:02, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

The phrase has been used in connection with cold fusion numerous times, there's plenty of RS for that. The Bushnell quote is perfect RS. I do not need a secondary source to notice that several people in the CF-arena are using the same phrase. It is not conflicting with any policy to point the reader to the use of that phrase in connection with cold fusion. It is not a policy issue, it is a "I'd like that" vs. "I don't like it" argument. I recommend you avoid pulling policies out of your hat that are not relevant. --POVbrigand (talk) 07:47, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Unless you can find WP:RS that discusses this, it isn't going in the article, regardless of the results of your WP:OR. I recommend you read the policies concerned, rather than pulling trivial irrelevant nonsense out of a hat to suit your POV.

And as a personal opinion of my own, I cant help but see the irony in noting that those who think that the E-Cat is more than a figment of imagination are now concerned about its utility as a kettle, rather than as the Earth-shattering invention it is supposed to be. With no news of any significance, we end up dredging the sources for anything to keep up the momentum, though the E-Cat itself seems to have run out of steam ;-) AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are completely mistaken about what the policies say, you seem to be reading selectively to support your biased opinion that the E-Cat is not worth an article. My understanding is that you are constantly trying to cut the article down to a miserable piece by throwing policies around and then argue that there is no room for miserable pieces in WP. There is no policy whatsoever that describes what you are thinking. Except for my musing which I collapsed up here in this talk, there is no WP:OR in the fact that Pons, Bushnell, Park, Morrison and Garwin have all used the comparison with boiling water for tea, it is all perfectly RS. It is only WP:I_don't_like_it what you are stating here.

Ridicule is one of the best ways to solicit recognition for an otherwise insupportable view. Here in WP we are used to that defence and don't buy into it. :-) --POVbrigand (talk) 13:32, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

If you think my interpretation of policy is incorrect, I suggest you (a) indicate exactly what content you are proposing to add to the article, and then ask for input from others as to whether it is acceptable - if necessary, a WP:RfC might be the best option. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:08, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Another article

about the Energy Catalyzer. From Engineering & Technology :

http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2011/aug/rossi-reactor.cfm

--79.10.163.222 (talk) 12:45, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Out of date, trivial, and quite possibly sourced from our article. E & T seems to publish reader-submitted content, and isn't remotely WP:RS. We are interested in articles from reliable sources that contain useful information, not random articles that repeat things we've already seen. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:58, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

It is a reliable source. Obviously Andy doesn't think so, because it is not in line with his personal view. The article is a up to date summary of the events so far. To state that it is "quite possibly sourced from our article" is absolutely nonsense. The author also publishes for other magazines like The Lancet. The story is yet another perfect proof of notability of the E-Cat story. --POVbrigand (talk) 13:56, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

If you think that this is a reliable source, I suggest that you raise it at WP:RS/N. Before you do though, perhaps you could tell us what this article contains that isn't already in our article? It is merely repeating other sources, as far as I can see. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:02, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Great idea, why don't you raise it at WP:RS/N if you think it isn't a reliable source ? You are the one contesting that it isn't a RS. There is no obligation for anyone to get formal proof of reliability before using a source. There may be or may not be something interesting in the article that is not yet mentioned in our WP-article, but in any case it is a perfect RS. --POVbrigand (talk) 14:22, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Why the hell would I want to raise it at RS/N? I'm not proposing to use it as a source for anything - there is no such thing as a 'reliable source' in the abstract. If you want to use it as a source, tell us what for. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:25, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

For example, I could use it as RS for "According to Nobel prize winner and Cambridge emeritus physics professor Brian Josephson, an early supporter, the enormous output indicates the E-Cat must be generating energy from nuclear reactions, not chemical ones.". I could use is as RS for "Dennis Bushnell is a supporter of Rossi." . Or that E+K "have overseen trials, checking no secret cables or batteries were connected." and there isn't a thing you can do about it. --POVbrigand (talk) 14:54, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not interested in arguing about what you think you could use it for. If you want to use it as a source, you can either got to RS/N with a specific proposal, or simply add whatever it is you are proposing to the article - at which point I will have something concrete to discuss at RS/N. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:15, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

FWIW, looking at the about page for the magazine, I can't see why it isn't an RS. It has editors, so we can assume they have a reputation for fact checking etc. One thing I noticed there which we don't mention is that it says there are many sceptics - isn't that something you wanted to get across in the article before Andy? SmartSE (talk) 17:06, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Those staff members have received a lot of low-quality low-reputation not-very-discriminating awards, which are a pet peeve of mine since I edited Telly Award. In the TABPI awards and probably the Magazine Design & Journalism Awards you have to pay to enter the competition, there are dozens of categories, and hundreds of gold silver and finalist awards in order to have lots of "winners". The PPA Awards and the BSME awards are awarded by associations to their own members. I don't see any independent award in that page. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:41, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

This page [2] states that they accept submissions from outsiders, and this page [3] states that "The magazine is editorially independent of the institution and the views expressed in it do not necessarily reflect those of its editors or publishers". On the other hand, you may be right, and perhaps my initial assessment was a little hasty - though my general point stands: it doesn't seem to contain anything new, and seems to be out of date (referring to the now-abandoned intention to build E-Cats in Greece). If one assumes that it is acceptable as WP:RS, it doesn't seem to be particularly useful. Regarding 'sceptics', I'd rather not resort to cherry-picking an article just for a single quote. If it was cited for anything else though, then presumably this, and the suggestion that "Some say Rossi has a murky past" might also be added. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:23, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Just because they accept submissions from readers doesn't make the whole thing unreliable - many RS publish articles written by freelancers etc. Second, the editorial independence bit is irrelevant - how does that make it unreliable? I think "cherry picking" that would be fine - that's exactly what we should be doing when we write articles. Not sure about the BLP implications of that quote though, it rings alarm bells in me to use such a weasely worded quote as a source of negative info. SmartSE (talk) 07:44, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure I've seen more definitive discussions of Rossi's 'murky past' before in other sources - though as you say, there may be BLP concerns with including this in the article, at least until we have better grounds.

On a more general point, I suspect that nothing much is going to happen before October (anyone know the date more precisely?), when the 'one megawatt heating plant' is delivered/demonstrated - or not. It may be sensible to leave any major revisions to the article until then. If the E-Cat fails to appear, or is shown not to do what is claimed, no doubt some of the sources already cited will have more to say, and if it does work, no doubt the mainstream media will take notice. Either way, we should have more useful content to go on. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:45, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

You mean, about the public demonstration scheduled in October? In a date between 24 and 31 of October 2011.

--79.24.133.153 (talk) 15:36, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Andy,

to be precise: just now I realise that we merely know when this test might start, but we do not know when this test will eventually end. And I have no clue about it.

--79.24.132.183 (talk) 11:09, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Rumor update -- according to Rossi's recent posts, the 1MW "independent test" is under way, and both Bologna and Uppsala have eCats. Stay tuned! Alanf777 (talk) 20:51, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Rossi cannot be a source for statements about 'independent tests' on his own device. Unless and until this is reported in mainstream sources, it is of no relevance to the article - and this isn't a forum for rumours. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:57, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

It was a follow-up to the previous 6 posts, and specifically to your question: "anyone know the date more precisely?" That's why I didn't put it in the article, or propose putting it in the article. Alanf777 (talk) 22:57, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, yes, I could have worded that better - my apologies. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:24, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

(No offense taken) Anyway, Rossi has retracted his own rumour on the 1MW -- due to a "misunderstanding" (he doesn't re-post the question when he answers "Yes" or "No" , so he probably got his wires crossed.) -- so it's back to "End October". His "Yes" to ecats at Bologna and Upssala were in the same post, so that's suspect, too. Alanf777 (talk) 20:03, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Rumor refreshed : the B & U research eCats are specifically confirmed. Alanf777 (talk) 23:51, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Rossi mentioned in a Dutch science program -- http://www.wetenschap24.nl/programmas/labyrint/labyrint-tv/2011/september/21-09-Zon.html (Science 24) -- per a comment at PESN "cold fusion starts at about 19:55m and Rossi's e-Cat is spoken about from 20:20" -- I haven't got it to play yet, but a google-translate their page says "Now an Italian engineer claims to have invented a small device that already is capable of 'cold' fusion. It looks promising, but he is on thin ice. He will not be the first to be accused of fraud in the world of fusion." Just add it as another media-mention ? Alanf777 (talk) 18:55, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Does it add anything not in the previous media exposure? I think the eminent professor has managed to successfully garner significant media following, as there seems to be no shortage of media exposure as was shown by the section that was recently refactored. What we are lacking is significant credible scientific material. Cheers ^Khukri 19:14, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Not really (adding anything) ... anyway, it seems that some of the excreta will hit the expeller on or around Oct 6 .. so there should be some progress (in Bologna, at the 25kW level) one way or another. Alanf777 (talk) 19:19, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

skeptical warning tag

Is there an appropriate skeptical warning tag for this article? It appears to have been written largely by Free Energy believers trying to be objective.

Without having dug deeper into this particular story, the subject of this article appears to have many of the hallmarks of a Free energy suppression conspiracy-theorist nonsense story. Someone is claiming a revolutionary new technology providing relatively free energy, with demonstrations to local media/local university scientists, no larger-scale tests in objective circumstances, commercial agreements that are always just on the verge of being finalized ("This will be delivered in October!", which strongly echoes Steorn), and research rejected by scientific journals and subsequently self-published.

I believe this warrants far more skepticism than the article currently gives. At the very least, it needs a line in the lead clarifying that this kind of claimed discovery (which never pans out) is almost ubiquitous in pseudoscience world.

This is obviously not encyclopedic, but a personal note, just to urge a bit of caution: the article cites an interview in which NASA Langley's chief scientist Dennis Bushnell expresses enthusiasm for this technology, talking about it as an endorsement by NASA. This should be taken with a grain of salt. I attended a lecture by Mr. Bushnell, and he frequently made all kinds of wild claims far outside his field (he has a master's degree in aerospace engineering, focusing on airflow over wings). In particular, he talked about how the phenomenon of quantum entanglement heralds the coming of faster-than-light communication. This is patently ridiculous—a central result in that field is that no such communication is possible. I asked him about his claim afterward, and it turned out he had only a passing familiarity with the subject, and that his idea of a faster-than-light telephone was based on little more than speculative pop-science articles. I'm not suggesting any of this be included in the article—I don't mean to get all ad hominem. I just thought it was funny that the first context in which I saw his name (after that lecture ten years ago) was in an article espousing what sounds like free energy pseudoscience. So I repeat that story only to warn that enthusiasm by Mr. Bushnell does not necessarily signal a legitimate phenomenon. --MillingMachine (talk) 12:45, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

To be 100% fair, I report here the paragraph added at the beginning of the article by MillingMachine:

There have been several demonstrations of the device to limited audiences at the University of Bologna, and public enthusiasm for the technology from Bologna physics professor Giuseppe Levi. It has also received coverage from Swedish skeptics magazine Ny Teknik, with representatives of the magazine attending the test and reporting that they believed the process represented a nuclear reaction.[11] The research by Rossi was rejected for publication by peer-reviewed journals, and subsequently self-published in a journal created by the authors. The online publication New Energy Times published enthusiastic coverage of the Rossi group's research in early 2011, but later in the year published a 200-page issue devoted entirely to the Energy Catalyzer, concluding that the Rossi group's claims had no scientific support.[8] The editor speculated that the discovery may be fraudulent.[8] Peter Ekström, lecturer at the Department of Nuclear Physics at Lund University in Sweden, concluded, "I am convinced that the whole story is one big scam, and that it will be revealed in less than one year."[12] According to Rossi et. al., commercial application of the device will begin in October of 2011.

Does the article REALLY need such a repetition?--79.24.134.66 (talk) 15:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section, I'd say that it does: "The lead is as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects". The article devotes a great deal of room to the demonstrations, and per WP:NPOV we need to note the widespread scepticism about the device. I think that maybe the wording needs refinement, but it is an improvement on the vague assertion of claims that our current lede consists of. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:45, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Yep, articles are supposed to repeat the most relevant points twice. Once in the lead in a summarized way. And again in the body, with details, full context, sources, etc, along all the minor points that didn't get mentioned in the lead.

The usual advice is "write all the body first, then write the lead as a summary of what you wrote in the body". --Enric Naval (talk) 16:18, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the current lead section is not very good, but the proposed addition from MillingMachine doesn't really improve it. For me there are buzz words in the proposal that I think don't work in a lead, like "public enthusiasm", "they believed", "fraudulent", "big scam". It will be very difficult to come to an agreement for a lead section. I think that before we can start to work towards a really good lead, we should first come to a common understanding of the meaning of the WP-policy Wikipedia:What_SYNTH_is_not#SYNTH_is_not_just_any_synthesis, because without synthesis there cannot be a summary (that we jointly created). If we want to create a lead from putting together referenced lines it will never express what we want to say.

I do know MillingMachine's background, but to start a talk-section with the wording "Free Energy believers trying to be objective" really doesn't reflect a lot of objectivism and doesn't convince me he has profound knowledge of cold fusion / LENR history and its current developments. --POVbrigand (talk) 07:57, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

If you want to be picky, suggesting that there have been any "current developments" in cold fusion etc might not be seen as objective either - there have been claims, but as usual, nothing has been published in the type of sources Wikipedia would require for such ground-breaking scientific discoveries - so yes, we can only report the comments of those witnessing the demonstrations as beliefs (they can hardly be seen as anything else, given the circumstances), and both the NET and Ekström's comments are from sources that evidently are familiar with 'cold fusion' and/or the efforts of promoters to hype this questionable 'science'. If someone with no significant scientific background and a somewhat murky past announces that he has solved the world's energy problems, but refuses to disclose how in sufficient detail for experimental replication, one is fully entitled to think 'scam' - and recent events regarding Defkalion etc have done little to counter this. As long as the air of secrecy and distrust remains around the project, 'objectivity' (and Wikipedia policy) requires scepticism. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:05, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

you say: "nothing has been published in the type of sources Wikipedia would require for such ground-breaking scientific discoveries" - are you inventing new WP-rules again ?

I did my best to try and understand the point you are making and I am not sure if I found one, but it is interesting that you see NET (= New Energy Times, ie Steven B. Krivit) as a "source which is familiar with the efforts of promoters to hype this questionable science." That is so beautifully formulated, you should win a prize for that ! --POVbrigand (talk) 08:08, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

And regarding Krivit and Bushnell read this interesting bit, posted on Krivit's blog: Nasa advances evaluation of Piantelli's LENR research --POVbrigand (talk) 08:11, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

If this is of relevance to any Wikipedia article, it isn't this one - it doesn't concern Rossi's E-Cat. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:09, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Why didn't you read the blog/article first before commenting ? It mentions Rossi. It mentions Piantelli's scientific Ni-H work, which was published in peer-reviewed papers, and which is related to what Rossi is doing. I thought that was clear enough for anybody. And it also mentions NASA's interest in this Ni-H LENR experiments, which is also relevant for our article's topic. --POVbrigand (talk) 07:49, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

It mentions in passing a visit by "representatives from an investment group and NASA" to Rossi's showroom - indicating nothing of real consequence. As yet, we only have Rossi's word that his E-Cat is a Ni-H LENR device - and at least some of the anomalous results (e.g. isotopes in the post-demonstration 'catalyzer' material, lack of detectable gamma radiation etc) suggest that it isn't. We don't need more speculation, we need hard evidence from reliable sources actually stating that NASA has expressed a specific interest in studying the E-Cat for themselves. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:21, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

POVbrigand—Thanks for your comments on the reversion! Since you asked about my background, it's in physics, with a particular interest in energy and how humans use it. I was linked to an article on the energy catalyzer by a friend who knew of my interest in the subject, so I came to Wikipedia to see what information was available about it. I was surprised to see that the article lead contained no discussion of evaluations to determine whether the Energy Catalyzer represented a real technology. I was sure that experts must have weighed in, since the project has gotten a fair bit of press at this point. Other than the use of "claimed" and "Rossi asserted", there's nothing in the lead which speaks to the [in my view, extremely likely] possibility—raised in numerous citable sources—that the Energy Catalyzer does not work. I think a failure to include this seriously hurts the article, and that someone who read the lead would come away with a mistaken impression that this is a new breakthrough technology whose workings are a bit uncertain but which nobody has suggested could have any problems.

Given the history surrounding the culture of Free Energy/Perpetual Motion/Water-Fueled Cars/etc, and the internet subculture which tirelessly promotes such breakthroughs even when they don't pan out over and over (YouTube is flooded with videos of claimed permanent magnet motors and kinematic perpetual motion machines, each with hundreds of thousands of views), I worry that this article has been structured largely by unsupervised and misguided enthusiasts—the five "demonstrations and investigations", for example, include what would more properly be thought of as basic internal tests. In the development of most technologies, countless such tests would be a constant component of the R&D process long before anything was claimed publicly. Framing these as the article does gives the impression that this technology has been subject to more rigorous public testing and review than it appears to have been.

I'm happy to concede that while I tried to follow the Wikipedia manual appropriately, I might just be too biased, and so I'll leave it to others whether to include any version of my paragraph in the article (or add a different one). I don't know a lot about editing works on here, but if there's some kind of community of Wikipedia editors with physics or engineering expertise, I think it would be a good idea to call their attention to this article, and request a review of the overall tone and the how accurately it reflects the available sources.

Thanks for sharing your feedback on my edits! I'll reread the WP:NPOV guidelines and try to improve my future contributions. --MillingMachine (talk) 15:07, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

MillingMachine, thank you for the feedback too. I would appreciate if you would contribute to the article, because I now think you are a perfect neutral "voice". I can agree with all of what you say here and I do not object to the lead section also stating a skeptical view. Most of the time the simplest wording is the best, so we can just add something like "the whole thing should be taken with a lot of skepticism because ...." the part after because is the most difficult.

The current state of the article is not because "this article has been structured largely by unsupervised and misguided enthusiasts". It is because a reasonable article is impossible to make, because each and any attempt at writing a well readable piece is torpedoed. And we are stuck in some sort of "trench warfare" were each side keeps the other side at bay and only perfect referenced hard facts are allowed into the article. And most of the hard facts about the issue are already in the article, nothing more can be added. We cannot work on style or on improving the readability, because everyone will cry WP:SYNTH or WP:OR or WP:WEIGHT and revert for any far fetched WP-rule interpretation they can think of and threaten sanctions (see section below). It is a madhouse. it is a perfect example why WP doesn't work. The sorry state of this article reflects that what can be done within the limitation of the WP system, believe me I have tried.

There will be yet another demonstration on october 6. This time it will be a completely different setup which the two swedish scientists Essen and Kullander have more or less proposed. So it will produce a lot more scientifically relevant measurement data. A lot of real scientists have been invited. So let's see if some of the skepticism will be eased next Friday when the report will be available. Maybe then we can start to improve the article a bit.

Since February this year I have done a lot of reading about cold fusion and LENR. My current position is that LENR is a real effect and that it is probably not even new science, but just something that hasn't been fully understood yet. The huge energy gain that Rossi claims is not yet proven, but one should not disbelieve the whole LENR field just because there are so many clearly misguided minds claiming all sorts of things on youtube.

So again, please contribute, we can all need your help. --POVbrigand (talk) 20:41, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

General Sanctions Tag on discussion page

This discussion page carries a prominent banner stating "This article and its editors are subject to Wikipedia general sanctions. See the description of the sanctions." when you click the link it takes you to a section of a page about Abd-William_M._Connolley/Proposed_decision that just says "1) The cold fusion article, and parts of any other articles that are substantially about cold fusion, are subject to discretionary sanctions." which links to to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion, which does not carry the general sanctions banner in the article or on its discussion page. additionally the reference is about discretionary sanctions, not general sanctions So I see a banner about an incorrect level of sanction who's only reference is an entirely different article (cold fusion), and which cold fusion article is not required to carry the sanctions banner. It seemed like a slam dunk obvious removal of the banner from this discussion page. I apologise for not discussing it first. Does anyone have reason/justification to keep the banner here? If so then does it also need to be added to the cold fusion article? Thanks! DavesPlanet (talk) 18:37, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

The sanctions imposed on "Cold fusion and related articles" are clearly referred to on the Wikipedia:General sanctions page - they are the second item in the 'Active sanctions' section. As for whether the Cold fusion article talk page should carry the banner or not, that is a discussion best resolved elsewhere. The fact is, however, that (a) this article clearly falls within the cold fusion sanctions remit, and (b) there has been a lot of input from people who may be unaware of Wikipedia policy - it seems only fair to make the situation clear. I can't see any good grounds for not having the banner, under the circumstances. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:48, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Official website?

http://www.ecat.com/

Is it the official website or is it a joke?
--79.16.128.169 (talk) 05:13, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

No idea - but whatever it is, it isn't relevant to our article unless someone can provide evidence from a WP:RS that it is 'official'. Come to that, it probably wouldn't be relevant even if it was. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:19, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Lead section

The lead section is blatantly one-sided. It trots out the inventors' claims, but mentions not at all the very great scepticism about this contraption. My edit to address this has been reverted, one time with the absurd suggestion that my edit, rather than the article, was "not adhering to NPOV". I am not too fussed about the exact wording; please feel free to tweak it. However, some mention of the other position must be made in the lead. 86.177.105.245 (talk) 22:54, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The lede should summarise material from elsewhere in the article, so your edit isn't really acceptable. I agree though about the lack of balance in the lede: we discussed this earlier (see 'skeptical warning tag', above), and frankly, I can't see anything wrong with restoring MillingMachine's proposed text, or something similar. Only one contributor made any objections, and those seem to be based more on beliefs regarding the validity of the device, rather than on Wikipedia policy and guidelines. Unless anyone raises substantive objections, I'll maybe tweak MM's wording slightly, and then restore it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:12, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I've added a reworded second paragraph. Can I ask the any comments regarding this take due consideration of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section - The previous lede clearly didn't conform to this. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:14, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I can mostly agreed with it, but I also agree to the comments from 79.6.146.208 (see below). So some tweeking remains to be done. --POVbrigand (talk) 11:04, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Lead section: New Energy Times lacks enough credibility

New Energy Times is Steven Krivit's site. He proclaim himself to be a journalist because he publishes on his website, ie New Energy Times!
IMHO it is impossible to compare what popular science magazines, like Ny Teknik (about 150000 copies sold each week) and Focus (about 500000 copies sold each month), write about the E-Cat to what a self published source, like New Energy Times, states. Especially in the lede, because ubi maior minor cessat.
--79.6.146.208 (talk) 03:01, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

If this article only used sources from the mainstream media, there would be nothing in it. The pro E-Cat faction seem willing enough to use obscure websites when it suits them (including NET, if I remember correctly), so we can hardly ignore them when they don't. Still, if you want to raise the sources used in this article at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, go ahead - but I'd recommend reading WP:BOOMERANG first. The more non-POV eyes we have on this article the better, as far as I'm concerned. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The concept I want to express is this: if you do not have Ny Teknik (about 150000 copies sold each week) and Focus (about 500000 copies sold each month) then you can imagine to use other sources in the lede, like New Energy Times. But if you have Ny Teknik and Focus then you should use Ny Teknik and Focus, not New Energy Times because ubi maior minor cessat.

It is the "specific weight" of the sources which is simply uncomparable.

--79.6.146.208 (talk) 03:21, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Lead section: Ny Teknik remains both "rational sceptic" and very positive on the E-Cat

So why does the lede assume that Ny Teknik is "less favourable" than prevously on the Energy Catalyzer?
--79.6.146.208 (talk) 03:34, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

It isn't necessary to start a new section with every reply- but in answer to your question, we aren't 'assuming' anything - we are reporting what the sources say: why do you think Ny Teknik is publishing comments like this: "Many physicists are very skeptical. Partly because fusion of nuclei, which with their positive charges repel each other (the Coulomb barrier), requires hundreds of millions of degrees according to current knowledge, and partly because fusion should produce very high levels of gamma radiation". Or this "Among the most critical is Peter Ekström, lecturer at the Department of Nuclear Physics at Lund University in Sweden. After a thorough discussion he concludes: ‘I am convinced that the whole story is one big scam, and that it will be revealed in less than one year’". [4]. Still, if you don't think that Ny Teknik is a reliable source, perhaps we should exclude their comments - though the article will be even more badly-sourced without them, especially after we remove all the other 'information loops'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:53, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok: so, where is the report of Ny Teknik which is LESS FAVOURABLE than the previous report of Ny Teknik?

Ny Teknik remains both "rational sceptic" and very positive on the E-Cat. Instead, you wrote the lede assuming that Ny Teknik has worsened its disposition while the time has been passing, and this is purely untrue.

--79.6.146.208 (talk) 04:55, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

"...it is not as easy as before to rule out alternative sources of energy inside the E-cat, especially from a relatively short test as the one we undertook".

"The energy calculation of the test was not entirely obvious. See our detailed report here.

"Ny Teknik's conclusions disclose no hard scientific evidence..."

In a kind of worst-case scenario, one could conclude that the developed power output in self-sustained mode was at least of the order of 3.5 kilowatts. At most, it may have been close to eight kilowatts". (Rossi claims this version of the E-Cat is capable of producing 27 KW)

All from Ny Teknik's reporting of the demonstration they saw in September. [5] Compare this with a report they published in February, where Rossi's E-Cat was supposedly producing 10 KW, allegedly produced an available energy equivalent to 517 kg of oil per gram of nickel, and led Ny Teknik to speculate on Rossi winning a Nobel prize. [6] The detailed report they produced on the September test in [7] clearly acknowledges that it was not possible to rule out "alternative energy sources inside the E-cat", and that there was insufficient testing to make any definitive scientific conclusions.

This may very well all become irrelevant of course - Rossi is now claiming to have the E-Cat in production, at which point proper scientific testing will become possible. If it does what Rossi claims, the sceptics (including me) will all look foolish. And if it doesn't, no doubt Rossi will have an excuse, but I very much doubt that Ny Teknik or anyone else will give it much credibility. This article has been based on speculative claims and dubious 'science' for long enough now - it needs hard evidence. This is an online encyclopedia, not a cold fusion enthusiasts blog. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:45, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The Oct 6 test is over, and NON-rs sources report it was successful. (3.5kW for 4 hours, self-sustaining). Nyteknik apparently has priority for the official report. All rumours, of course .... Alanf777 (talk) 22:20, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Very very soon the reports should be published. NON-rs sources report that each of the 52 modules (of the 1MW plan) contains 3 E-Cat cores: yesterday only one of the 3 cores within the 27kW module was on, and the test was performed only on this sole core. I am looking forward to read an official report very soon....--79.11.2.146 (talk) 10:56, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Lead section: where are the "other sources" which "published less favourable reports"?

Until now I found only this one: http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-08-controversial-energy-generating-lacking-credibility-video.html however Physorg states in its article that its claims are from New Energy Times, so it is an information loop.
Hence there is only one source which "published less favourable reports" and this source is Steven Krivit's New Energy Times.
--79.6.146.208 (talk) 03:41, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Please do not start a new section with every comment you make - it disrupts the logical flow of discussions. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:54, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Usually I do not do it, but this time I did it because these are independent aspects (although from a single part of text). Now the lede assumes that there would be "other sources" which "published less favourable reports", beyond Steven Krivit's New Energy Times. I tried to discover these "other sources" which "published less favourable reports", but I was unable to find them.

--79.6.146.208 (talk) 06:24, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Fresh article from Wired

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-10/06/e-cat-cold-fusion
ps
many happy people in Bologna today...
--79.16.137.106 (talk) 12:08, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

More publicity, no substance. ^Khukri 13:00, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

clear substance: "Darpa, the Pentagon's advanced science wing, has also been involved in this field. Budget documents reveal a longstanding interest in low energy nuclear reactions, and the plan for 2012 includes the line "Establish scalability and scaling parameters in excess heat generation processes in collaboration with the Italian Department of Energy." --POVbrigand (talk) 15:07, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

And you have links to DARPA and Italian DoE for those? ^Khukri 15:14, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

This isn't a general article about cold fusion/LENR research - unless it specifically concerns Rossi's E-Cat, what Darpa is up to is of no relevance to this article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:45, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The whole Wired article is about Rossi and the article states that Darpa has also been involved in that field. So what is your problem, what WP-policy are you refering too ? Wired.co.uk has published an article in which it is mentioned that Darpa has been involved. Thus "Darpa is involved" is perfectly WP:RS by a secondary source, no need to provide the primary source. But if you are curious you could always do the google search for the primary source yourself. It's easy if you try. --POVbrigand (talk) 15:56, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The Wired article states that "Darpa... has also been involved in this field". It says nothing whatsoever about Darpa being directly involved with the E-Cat. In any case, the article contains nothing of any real substance that is new. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Andy, I do agree somewhat with you, there isn't really much new info in the article. At least not the kind of info that _you_ are looking for. But I fully disagree with Khukri when he 1) dismisses the article with "no substance" and then 2) requests primary sources. --POVbrigand (talk) 16:10, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

As is your right to disagree, but up until now all we have is "X said this" & "Y said that" and none of the commentary carries any certainty or proof. Therefore I feel quite justified and until you can find sources that show otherwise, to call such articles publicity pieces with no substance. There is nothing wrong with the source itself, just it contains nothing apart from the usual "Someone called Rossi says he has cold fusion and someone else thinks it a hoax, and someone else thinks he might be on to something and it's going to save the world". We already have enough of those articles, one more adds nothing we don't already know. Up until now the only thing we do know is successful, is that Rossi knows how to garner publicity without adding anything of substance. I look forward to having to adjust my position. ^Khukri 16:46, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

It does not add very much that we didn't already know. The rest of your feelings for the article (and the whole Rossi situation) is really just your personal feelings and has nothing to do with the evaluation if the Wired article is WP:RS. I think we are just arguing over the semantics of the word "substance". --POVbrigand (talk) 18:32, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually no. What Khukri writes is based around Wikipedia policy and practice. As long as Rossi is making unverified claims of a major scientific advance, we are obliged, per WP:FRINGE to treat such claims with suspicion. Wired is not a recognised peer-reviewed scientific journal, any more than say Ny Teknik, or the New Energy Times is - so none of them are WP:RS for anything beyond reports of 'claims' regarding the E-Cat. Wikipedia isn't going to suggest that the E-Cat technology is valid until it is verified by mainstream science. We can report the claims, but reporting that the same claims are being republished elsewhere is largely superfluous. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

You are stating obvious things, what is your point ? The Wired article is a perfect WP:RS for that what is written in it. Feel free to be as suspicious as you like, but don't start dismissing articles for personal reasons, thanks --POVbrigand (talk) 20:48, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Test of 7 July 2011

Stremmenos reports:
http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/10/test-e-cat-7-luglio-2011.html
(Of course, tomorrow Ny Teknik and Focus will publish independent reports concerning the test of today)
--79.16.137.106 (talk) 14:43, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

We base our articles on published reliable sources, not blogs. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, you stated in an edit comment "Revert removal of 'Ny Teknik' comments - you can't argue that they are a credible source on the talk page, and dismiss them here" and now you state the opposite. Have you noticed that your evaluation of the reliability of a source depends on what they state about the subject ? When they support the anti-rossi view you gladly accept them as perfectly reliable, but when they support the pro-rossi view the same sources suddenly become unreliable. Great work Andy --POVbrigand (talk) 21:04, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't suddenly become unreliable, please read WP:SPS nothing new in this position. ^Khukri 21:10, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Articles about the 6 October 2011 test

Article from Ny Tekink (at last!!!)

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3284823.ece
--79.11.2.146 (talk) 11:29, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Full report from Ny Teknik: http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3284962.ece/BINARY/Test+of+E-cat+October+6+%28pdf%29

--79.11.2.146 (talk) 11:43, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Yup - more of the same vague results, based on questionable 'science', and full of "supposedly"s and "according to Rossi"s. It tells us nothing that we didn't know before. How about this for a classic quote: "Digital bathroom scale used for weighing the E-cat. It was calibrated by two persons knowing their weight". The simple fact is that Ny Teknik journalists aren't qualified to run scientific tests - not that this was a 'test' anyway - it was another 'demonstration' - of yet another version of the E-Cat. I think the only significant content of the Ny Teknik report is the statement that the E-Cat container that Rossi was supposed to be sending to the US had been held back because, as Rossi stated, he "had a preliminary agreement with a very important party in the U.S., but when we received the final draft, it included conditions that our lawyers said that we should not accept". No surprise there... AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:03, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Yup - nothing. I also noticed the "Digital bathroom scale used for weighing the E-cat. It was calibrated by two persons knowing their weight." which just doesn't sound very scientific to me. The only positive news in this report is the 3.5h of self sustained operation. The disappointing news is 1) a device for making frequencies which we never heard of before 2) 1MW container not shipped due to non acceptable contract. Now let's see if what tone Focus.it will use in their article. --POVbrigand (talk) 12:21, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

In fairness to the author his opening line of the conclusion is telling for the scientific nature of this test "The accuracy of the measurements during this test must be considered fairly low." and the bathroom scales quote is certainly going to close alot of the previously open minded scientific audience. I think we should just have a hiatus on the speculation sources, until we see someone who actually has seen in the box, can say definitively how/if it works, otherwise we will have an article on purely the media aspect of the e-cat and not from a scientific viewpoint. Cheers ^Khukri 12:33, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

My comment: it is a small step for a cat, but a giant leap for mankind!--79.11.2.146 (talk) 12:53, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Ever heard of the expression don't leap before you look? ^Khukri 13:12, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I hate to say I told you so, but I called it on April 12:

"...I'm just waiting now for the announcement from Rossi/Defkalion that production and sales of the Energy Catalyzer has been delayed due to unforeseen technical difficulties. At a guess, the announcement will push back expected delivery of the first units to the first quarter of 2012 from the original October 2011 announcement. I expect that this delay will be accompanied by the annoucement of one or more additional public demonstrations. No 'used' fuel samples will be made available for isotopic analysis by independent laboratories ever again."

My major mistake was in not guessing the delay would be 'indefinite'. Some vague contractual dispute is a good way to string along the gullible for years. By the way, whatever did happen to that factory in Xanthi we heard about?

The article also still has the same problem I highlighted on May 6:

"The current article has at least four sections (and counting) that cover the public and private demonstrations that Rossi has orchestrated. This style of coverage may be appropriate to a dedicated blog, but for Wikipedia's purposes it's probably time for a bit of editing. We should strive to produce a concise summary of the demonstrations. Briefly, all purport to show excess heat production; there has been no demonstration of ionizing radiation or neutron production; despite Rossi's claims that he has operated devices for years in his factory, there has never been a demonstration of a device that works for more than a few hours; and Rossi has not released either detailed plans or a device to any independent researcher for testing, so no other independent group has been able to replicate his experiment....It's misleading for us to create a new section in the article every time Rossi repeats the same dog and pony show; the April tests in Bologna appear to have lasted less than three hours, and Lewan's article doesn't report that any scientists were even present."

"there has been no demonstration of ionizing radiation or neutron production" -- The mechanism is unknown, so the lack of any particular "evidence" is inconclusive at best, and misleading at worst. All that is needed is a reliable (and RS-reported) measurement of significant anomalous heat, through centuries-old calorimetry, even if it cannot cannot be explained by, or is contradictory to, any known mechanism. (see this year's Physics Nobel prize) Alanf777 (talk) 18:13, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Do you have a source that states that the mechanism is unknown? All we have is Rossi's entirely unverified claims, and a complete lack of objective tests to rule out fraudulent use of entirely known mechanisms. As always, it is for those making claims to provide verifiable evidence, rather than for others to disprove them. Rossi refuses to do this - and as long as he continues to do this, reporting every 'demonstration' as if it was somehow more significant than the last is giving them undue weight. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:22, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Since the internals of the reactor have not been revealed (reported, I think in every source),the mechanism is unknown. If opened, it could be determined to be previously known (eg chemicals) or currently unknown (LENR). Real or Fake? http://evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?authorid=12&blogid=972&archive=1 ? (June 2011)

As far as I can tell from all the reports, Rossi has selected the type of experiment (steam or water or heat-exchanger), power level and duration, and has forbidden ONLY the use of gamma-ray spectrographs. The observers have been free to bring whatever external electrical and calorimetric equipment they want. The failure to do so is theirs, not Rossi's. Alanf777 (talk) 21:00, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Wouldn't a bog standard neutron chamber suffice? ^Khukri 21:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

All of the details from the demonstrations should be removed, and the header should be expanded to maybe state the notable people who were present for the demonstrations until such time as there is new information or the system is indepentantly tested. Listing that he demonstrated a heating element without verifiable sources of how or what it contains, falls foul of WP:WEIGHT, WP:FRINGE and taken from WP:REDFLAG "Any exceptional claim requires high-quality sources" as of now the only decent sources are that he has garnered media attention, for this and this only is the e-cat notable. ^Khukri 19:04, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

79.11's breathless creation of multiple talk page sections every time there's an online mention of the device is a related problem. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:38, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Yup. The article needs some serious pruning - it gives far too much weight to inconclusive 'demonstrations' and speculations about science sourced to nothing more than Rossi's claims about what is supposedly going on. As for the '79.11' IP, I generally assume, unless given evidence to the contrary, that such anon contributors are quite possibly posting on Rossi's behalf, given the endless hype from such sources. "A giant leap for mankind" - yeah, back to where we were six months ago, only with more blather and excuses from Rossi. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:52, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Uh??? If I remember right, I did just four new sections concerning online mentions of the Energy Catalyzer in the last two months: the first for a website named "ecat", the second for the article of Wired of yesterday, the third for the report of Stremmenos, the fourth for the article of Ny Teknik of today.
--79.11.2.146 (talk)

Post Scriptum
Just to be precise, I wrote this phrase: "it is a small step for a cat, but a giant leap for mankind"
with a smiley spirit AND NOT with a sort of "hype" intention whatsoever.
--79.11.2.146 (talk) 14:19, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

The current separate mentioning of each demonstration does provide the reader with detailed info of what happened when, but I agree that the sheer number of demonstrations might give a false impression that there are no more doubts about the device. So instead of adding yet another demonstration, I think we should try to rewrite the section. --POVbrigand (talk) 14:10, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

As far as we know, no other tests will be performed before the end of the month, when the 1MW plan is supposed to be inaugurated (I wrote "supposed" because we do not know if it will be inaugurated or not). IMHO it should be more logical if we write about the last test first, and then decide how to manage the "test" section.

Or not?

--79.11.2.146 (talk) 14:30, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I see that POVbrigand has started by summarising the demonstrations (not 'tests' - that would imply more rigour than is evident). I think we can cut the remainder down to a single paragraph - we don't need all the dates, durations etc for each one. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Agree test section needs a re-write and as you say more aptly titled demonstrations to be more neutrally worded, as of now all we have is conjecture. I've reverted the last addition of the tests for a more neutral wording. How can the Pettersson be convinced it works without knowing how it's generating heat. As of now we still have nothing but heresay that is LENR or cold fusion or even teeny weeny monkeys running very fass on a incy treadmill. Up till now it's a glorified teapot, or a Russell's teapot at that, something taken on faith. I say re-write the article to show it's something that has gained minor media attention with zero basis in science. ^Khukri 14:41, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec) As far as we know, Rossi has forbidden any testing of his device; what he's doing are simply demonstrations. (He seems to have gone sour on independent testing after mass spec analysis of 'burned' fuel and ionizing radiation measurements around the 'operating' device both failed to show any evidence supporting his claims.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:51, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Slowly, don't start deleting just yet, wait for a few days. I want to be sure that no interesting link is lost. @Khukri, I do not agree with your understanding of OR. Your personal reasoning about what Pettersson has said is the only OR I can see. --POVbrigand (talk) 14:52, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

He hasn't been shown inside the e-cat and until it is released how the e-cat works, he is taking it on faith. If you don't know how something works how can you be convinced, that's not OR that's logic. Wikipedia doesn't wait a few days just in case, it reflects actuality with what can be shown through sourcing, not what might happen WP:CRYSTALBALL. ^Khukri 15:00, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

A quote is a quote. The quote is perfectly WP:RS. WP:OR is about what WP-editors construct themselves, not what professors are quoted as saying. --POVbrigand (talk) 15:04, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

No problems with that at all so long as the quote is taken in context that someone showed him a teapot. ^Khukri 15:06, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of what the professor said, we can't state that "an E-cat ran in a completely stable self sustained mode for over three hours". We know nothing about 'stability', or that it was actually 'self-sustained' - all we know is that claims are being made to that effect, by Rossi, and by persons not in a position to know if it is true. And concerning deletions, 'not losing interesting links' is a poor reason to retain unnecessary content - they can be found from the article history easily enough (and there is nothing to stop anyone copying the text to their own PC or whatever). AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:13, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

What "we know" is of course completely irrelevant since that would be WP:OR on our side. Either that's a statement found in WP:RS or it's not. Troed (talk) 17:05, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

What do you think about the temperature data?

http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3284968.ece/BINARY/Temp+data+Ecat_6_10_11+%28xls%29

--79.11.2.146 (talk) 15:12, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

It is not for us to think anything of the data, that is left to others. ^Khukri 15:16, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes. In any case Ny Teknik state themselves that the measurements are poor - and without proper controlled independent scientific tests, they are almost meaningless. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:18, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I think that's a spreadsheet full of numbers, and I bite my tongue about further analysis because – for the nth time – Wikipedia is not a blog for the discussion of this device, and you should stop treating it as one. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:20, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I tried to make a quick calculation based on the data, and this is the result I obtain: 9.2405 kW*h used 26.52864 kW*h produced.

Of course, if the data are worthless then it is meaningless that the E-Cat seems to work well.

I would like to know the list of the people present to the demonstration of yesterday, just to understand how much academics were there.

--79.11.2.146 (talk) 15:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I also would like to know who was present, Essen & Kullander ? Scientists from USA and China, who ? --POVbrigand (talk) 16:01, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I do hope that at least someone of the media, that were present there, will make that list public: it would be foolish (and for me unconceivable) if nobody will do it!--79.11.2.146 (talk) 16:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok, there is the list:

List of the persons who were present during the demonstration of October 6th, 2011

http://www.focus.it/fileflash/energia/fusionefredda/ecat/ECAT_Presenze6ott11.pdf

Andrea Rossi, Sergio Focardi (UNIBO - Professor Emeritus), Enrico Billi, Christos Stremmenos (OMRI), Paolo Soglia, Damiana Aguiari, Enrico Campari (UNIBO), Ennio Bonetti (UNIBO), Stefan Helgesson, Paul Swanson (SPAWAR), Niclas Sandstrom, Hahn Magnus, Stefano Riva (CONFINDUSTRIA), Nicola Parenti (CONFINDUSTRIA), Tomas Johansson, Giuseppe Levi (UNIBO), Roland Pettersson (Uppsala University - retired Professor), Loris Ferrari (UNIBO), Pierre Clauzon (CEA), Koen Vandenwalle, Alessandro Passi, Daniele Passerini, Roberto Sgherri, Domenico Fioravanti, Mats Lewan (Ny Teknik), David Bianchini (UNIBO), Sebastiano Zannoli, Edward Jobson (University of Gothenburg), Maurizio Melis (Il Sole 24 Ore), Andrea Granatiero (Focus), Massimo Brega (Focus), Raymond Zreick (Focus), Irene Zreick (Focus) --79.20.142.155 (talk) 05:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I see no surprises, but I wonder why Christos Stremmenos was there. --POVbrigand (talk) 11:58, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Article from Il Sole 24 Ore (in Italian)

(Sub-section in order to avoid 3000 threads over the same argument)

http://www.radio24.ilsole24ore.com/main.php?articolo=ecat-fusione-fedda-bologna-andrea-rossi

Written by scientific journalist Maurizio Melis who was present at the event.--79.11.2.146 (talk) 16:58, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

You're still not quite getting the 'this is not a blog' point. Telling us that yet another news article exists isn't helpful. Telling us what it says that's both novel and reliable (if anything) and which is relevant to our should be incorporated into the article would be helpful. As far as I can tell, technical details are addressed simply by reference to Mats Lewan's Ny Teknik article.

Once again, the creation of another thread (or sub-thread) doesn't address my concerns with your approach, 79.11—how does your posting of the above link lead to an improvement of Wikipedia's encyclopedia article on this topic? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok TenOfAllTrades: I can do it.

SUMMARY OF THE ARTICLE OF MAURIZIO MELIS:

1) Melis tells us that Swedish and American representatives of the industrial world were present, but they refused to reveal which corporations they work for

2) Melis tells us that representatives from the Universities of Uppsala and Bologna were present. The University of Bologna ordered its representatives not to talk with the press

3) Melis states that this time, although margins of error were still present, the measurements were more solid compared to the the ones taken during the previous tests thanks to the new setting for the experiment

4) In particular, the uncertainties concerning the measurement of the produced energy were eliminated (before there was the problem of the quality of the steam. This problem was completely eliminated by using a secondary circuit)

5) however, critical points remain, because the test was not performed in neutral field. Melis hopes that soon university tests will be performed in order to eliminate the problem
--79.11.2.146 (talk) 17:39, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Articles from Focus (in Italian)

Written by scientific editor in chief Raymond Zreick who was present at the event

• 6 OTTOBRE:

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/6-ottobre_PC12.aspx

• I PREPARATIVI:

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/i-preparativi_19714201_PC12.aspx

• L'ACCENSIONE:

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/l-accensione_PC12.aspx

• AUTOSOSTENTAMENTO (3 ORE O 4?):

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/autosostentamento-3-ore-o-4_PC12.aspx

• CHE COSA C'E' DENTRO ALL'E-CAT:

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/che-cosa-c-e-dentro-all-e-cat_PC12.aspx

• COME INTERPRETARE I RISULTATI:

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/come-interpretare-i-risultati_PC12.aspx

• LE DOMANDE DEL GIORNO DOPO:

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/le-domande-del-giorno-dopo_PC12.aspx

--79.10.132.219 (talk) 19:08, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Relation of Professor Christos Stremmenos about the test of 6 October 2011 (in Italian)

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-test-6102011-la-relazione-di-christos-stremmenos_C12.aspx

--79.16.165.34 (talk) 10:51, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Radio Città del Capo

Apologies if this has been posted before (I've only recently become aware of this topic) but I didn't see it linked; there is an article from it:Radio Città del Capo (Original Italian) (Google Translate) "Cold fusion, the E-Cat works? Let's look inside ... the full video of the test on 6 October" that has a couple of YouTube videos of the event embedded in it. -- Limulus (talk) 14:10, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

thanks for the convenience link. Radio Citta del Capo is a local/regional radio station of Bologna. So it is not very high up in the ranks of notable media outlet. It there anything new in there that the others didn't already write about ? --POVbrigand (talk) 14:15, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Rework demonstration section

we will rework the demonstration section. I have started with a proposal at the top of the section. Please let us work on getting that wrap up bit finished first. We should take a few day to do it properly, we don't have to do a rush job. Every editor will have his her own view on what should be in the wrap up and we should honor those different views. The goal is to write a wrap up with little technical detail, some quotations, and a general cautious tone. All agree ? --POVbrigand (talk) 15:34, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry POVbrigade I didn't comment earlier, I think your header neatly sums up the situation and referring to my last post in the section above, I think the notable people could be added to the header, and any other pertinant information included in the header, and the details for each demonstration removed. Please take into account my last post above for reasoning why it should be removed before replying about not deleting anything. ^Khukri 19:11, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Oct 6th test - please report what the sources say

I have removed this section entirely for now, as it was making claims that weren't backed up by the sources. Please place any proposed new version on this talk page for discussion first. Note that we should not be stating that 'X' or 'Y' happened during the demonstrations, only that it was reported by 'Z' that 'X' or 'Y' happened. Per WP:FRINGE, any reporting of 'science' not in accord with scientific consensus should not be stated as factual. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:34, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Andy always favours deleting the whole freaking section or page or entire WP for the sake of WP:FRINGE. I disagree. It does not show of any willingness to cooperate to come to NPOV. The demand to first present any proposal on the talk page is nowhere stated in any policy. WP:BOLD ! --POVbrigand (talk) 14:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE is policy - it isn't negotiable. Further to my earlier comments, I would point out that the Ny Texnik detailed report on the test is a primary source, and as such needs to be used with care - indeed, given NY Tekniks involvement with making measurements during the demonstration, their entire reporting may well be considered as primary - articles should not be using solely primary sources in this way, as we rely on secondary sources to assess reliability, notability, weight etc. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:56, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Andy, I am willing to talk about deleting some content. Please explain what claims weren't backed up by the sources. Deleting the whole section will just create angry editors, or is that what you're after ? --POVbrigand (talk) 14:58, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

This is the deleted section:

On October 6th 2011 an E-cat was demonstrated running for over eight hours, for the first five hours the input power was up to 3kW, after which the power was reduced to 115W. The power output was estimated to be between two and three kilowatts. Possible uncertainties concerning the quality of the steam were overcome by injecting the steam from the Energy Catalyzer into a heat exchanger, where a flow of water was heated. Generally, the results of this experiment must be considered inconclusive, as the accuracy of measurements was reportedly fairly low. However, although accuracy was moderate and the measurement set up could have been more advanced, results was clear, mainly because the Energy Catalyzer ran for over three hours with a very low input of electricity. Roland Pettersson, retired Associate Professor from the University of Uppsala, who witnessed it said "I'm convinced that this works, but there is still room for more measurements".

For a start, where does the 'over eight hours' come from? In any case, it is making assertions as fact, which is unacceptable - we can report what sources claim, but we cannot possibly state that 'results were clear' - the sources in any case don't even say that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:07, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

The source does precisely say that: "results were clear", see Line four (just below):

--79.10.161.74 (talk) 15:34, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

That is known as 'cherry picking' - you use an isolated phrase, rather than the general tone of the sources, to give a misleading impression. And I've still seen no explanation for where the 'eight hours' came from. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:51, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

The test/demonstration was eight hour long. Source: http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3284962.ece/BINARY/Test+of+E-cat+October+6+%28pdf%29

The test/demonstration started at 11:12 (time of continental Europe) and ended at 19:58 (time of continental Europe), so to be precise it was more than eight hour long and almost nine hour long.

I want to specify that the E-Cat produced energy also BEFORE the beginning of self-sustained mode.

NOTE: I hope that Focus will describe all the passages very well, because personally I had difficulties to reconstruct the test/demonstration by reading the measurements and the sheet with the data log of Ny Teknik.--79.10.161.74 (talk) 16:15, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

That is a primary source - your interpretation of it is original research - the document doesn't state what you assert in any case.

And just to clarify - can you state for the record whether you have any connection with Rossi, or with the E-Cat? Per WP:COI, if you do, you should let this be known. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:28, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

What??? THIS IS NOT original research!

I simply reported the precise time when the test/demonstration began and finished as reported here: http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3284962.ece/BINARY/Test+of+E-cat+October+6+%28pdf%29

In any case I am waiting to read the article(s) of Focus because I want to understand more about it.

Concerning the second question:

I told you that I have NO CONNECTION WHATSOVER WITH ROSSI OR ANY OTHER PERSON INVOLVED WITH THE ENERGY CATALYZER.

And because I am Italian mothertongue my English is bad, but I can read information about the E-Cat quickly: this simply because 90% of the information concerning the E-Cat are written in Italian.--79.10.161.74 (talk) 16:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Andy,
it impossible: I carefully checked each line, and although I am not 100% satisfied with the result I am 100% sure that the paragraph is almost correct.
Hence, I report the whole paragraph below here and we can analyse each line:

Line one

On October 6th 2011 an E-cat was demonstrated running for over eight hours, for the first five hours the input power was up to 3kW, after which the power was reduced to 115W. The power output was estimated to be between two and three kilowatts.

I put that line in, because I wanted to clarify that the test consisted of a longer period than just 3 hours "self-sustained" mode. We have no reason to doubt that the demonstration started as Lewan reported at 11:00 and the input power was up to 3kW. At the start the power was lower and at the end it had a duty cycle of 50%. The power was permanently lowered at 16:00 (= after 5 hours) with only 115W remaining until the end of the demonstration, which according to Lewan happened at 19:00 when the hydrogen pressure was lowered --POVbrigand (talk) 18:39, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Line two

Possible uncertainties concerning the quality of the steam were overcome

REF(http://www.radio24.ilsole24ore.com/main.php?articolo=ecat-fusione-fedda-bologna-andrea-rossi "Questa incertezza si può considerare superata con l’esperimento di ieri." TRANSLATION: "This uncertainty can be considered overcome by means of the experiment of yesterday.")ENDofREF)

by injecting the steam from the Energy Catalyzer into a heat exchanger, where a flow of water was heated.

REF(http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3284823.ece "The important new element in the test was that it was possible to bypass the controversial energy calculation, based on vaporization, by injecting the steam from the energy catalyzer into a heat exchanger, where a flow of water was heated." )ENDofREF

• COMMENT: The text inserted here on Wikipedia was 100% stuck to the sources--79.10.161.74 (talk) 15:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Line three

Generally, the results of this experiment must be considered inconclusive, as the accuracy of measurements was reportedly fairly low.

REF(http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3284962.ece/BINARY/Test+of+E-cat+October+6+%28pdf%29 )ENDofREF

Line four

However, although accuracy was moderate and the measurement set up could have been more advanced, results was clear, mainly because the Energy Catalyzer ran for over three hours with a very low input (115W) of electricity.

REF(http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3284823.ece "Although accuracy was moderate and the measurement set up could have been more advanced, results was clear, mainly because the E-cat ran for over three hours in self sustained mode.")ENDofREF

• COMMENT: The text inserted here on Wikipedia was 100% stuck to the source.--79.10.161.74 (talk) 15:34, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I have deleted that line. I think it is more or less already mentioned. The "results was clear" might give a bit too optimistic view. If the results really would have been clear, then there wouldn't be such a dispute ongoing now. --POVbrigand (talk) 18:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Line five

Roland Pettersson, retired Associate Professor from the University of Uppsala, who witnessed it said "I'm convinced that this works, but there is still room for more measurements".
REF(http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3284823.ece Ny Teknik: New test of the E-cat enhances proof of heat)ENDofREF

• COMMENT: The text inserted here on Wikipedia was 100% stuck to the source.--79.10.161.74 (talk) 15:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Please read my comments regarding the use of sources AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:08, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

And further to that, I'd recommend reading Wikipedia:Copyright violations - I think your phrasing is far too close to the original in places. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:20, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

If you think that rewriting would be better then I can rewrite the phrases. I did not do it just because I wanted to be the more stuck to the sources as I could in order to avoid possible misunderstanding or disputes or objections from other users.

--79.10.161.74 (talk) 15:26, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

79.10, don't you understand that that is what Andy is after. He'll delete for WP:FRINGE, delete for complaint about sources. Delete with complaints about copyright. Then you go rewrite those bits, he'll delete for WP:OR. It is clear to me what he is trying to achieve. --POVbrigand (talk) 15:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Guys,

I will do what you will tell me to do: if I have to report the phrase I will report the phrase, if I have to rewrite the phrase for possible copyright infringment (but just for one or two single phrases?) then I will rewrite the phrase, if I have not to write anything because the source is not reliable then I will not write the phrase.

Just decide the modus operandi, and I will follow it.

Maybe we can add: "Ny Teknik states...", for example.--79.10.161.74 (talk) 15:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

IMHO there was also another relevant thing that Maurizio Melis wrote in his article:
"misure indipendenti, effettuate da alcuni dei presenti, per quanto imprecise, hanno di fatto confermato le letture di Rossi"
TRANSLATION:
"independent measurements, as far as unaccurate could be, taken by some of the participating people, do in fact have confirmed the reading made by Rossi."

So it would be possible to assume that other sources, beyond Ny Teknik, are able to publish independent measurements concerning the event.
If the assumption is right then other sources, like Focus for example, should have taken measurements and hence it is reasonable to suppose they will publish these measurements.
In the end, we should have at least three sources: Mats Lewan of Ny Teknik, Maurizio Melis of Il Sole 24 Ore, and Raymond Zreick of Focus.
Therefore, let's wait Focus and then compare the sources in order to skim off possible "misprints".
--79.10.161.74 (talk) 15:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

You have repeatedly been asked not to start a new section with each comment - this is supposed to be a discussion, not a blog. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:23, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok. I adjust it.--79.10.161.74 (talk) 15:28, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Given POVbrigand's refusal to discuss content here before reverting, I have reported the matter: see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:POVbrigand_reported_by_User:AndyTheGrump_.28Result:_.29. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:45, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE

It is not fringe that demonstrations of the device took place. Is it not fringe that Nyteknik reported on those demonstrations. It is not fringe that other media outlets have mentioned this device and its "maker".

To me this whole WP:FRINGE waving is nothing more than attempts at intimidation.

Why don't you read WP:WikiProject_Alternative_Views first.

Everything should be reliably sourced and a general healthy skeptic tone should be maintained. But trying to delete whole sections or the whole freaking page is not in line with WP policies. --POVbrigand (talk) 15:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

See WP:NPA. If you think I am trying to 'intimidate you' then report me for it - but read WP:BOOMERANG first... AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:48, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

PEACE&LOVEonWIKIPEDIA ! ! ! Please, do not stalk each other like...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzzjgBAaWZw

--79.10.161.74 (talk) 15:57, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

New Energy Times

The new energy times does not look like a reliable source, why are we using it? IRWolfie- (talk) 20:00, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I think the short answer is that we shouldn't - along with a lot of other material we use for references. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:11, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

It should be noted as well that Il Nuovo Cimento is also a cold fusion journal (see the cold fusion article). IRWolfie- (talk) 20:23, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

of course you can delete the new energy times references, be my guest. Most of the other material however is all perfectly WP:RS so there is no need to delete that.

The idea that Il Nuovo Cimento is also a cold fusion journal is laughable. You have no clue what you're talking about.--POVbrigand (talk) 20:27, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

@IRWolfie- I have seen the cold fusion article quite extensively for the last several months as you can easily notice from the history pages. Have you ever done any further reading on what cold fusion / LENR is about or are you a pseudo skeptic ? --POVbrigand (talk) 20:44, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

How is that relevant? We are looking at this article with respect to the guidelines, an unproven claim is not notable, no matter how many times the teapot is demonstrated. We only have Rossi's word that this is linked to cold fusion/LENR with ZERO reliable sources that it is. ^Khukri 20:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

yes, we only have Rossi's word. Nobody has verified that the device actually does what Rossi claims. Isn't that exactly what I have written in the header of the demonstrations section ? --POVbrigand (talk) 20:54, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

And then you made assertions that X, Y and Z had occurred, rather than saying that they were claimed to have occurred. In any case, the sourcing is inadequate - we cannot use a primary source like Ny Teknik in the way it was being used. Or if you disagree, raise the matter at WP:RS/N. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:00, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Nyteknik is not a primary source. You have a problem so you raise it at WP:RS/N. --POVbrigand (talk) 21:08, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Ny Teknik is a primary source when reporting their own tests - fact. If it is misused in the way it has been, I will delete it. It is for those wishing to use a source to provide evidence that it is suitable - I don't have to raise anything. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

What test was Nyteknik's own test ? I though it were all demonstrations ?--POVbrigand (talk) 21:27, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Ny Teknik is a very well known Swedish technology magazine highly regarded by engineers. Being a Swedish engineer myself I'd be happy to help out if you feel it somehow needs "validation". Mats Lewin comments himself that he had no idea he would need to take down measurements at the latest test, and only did it because no one else would. In no way does he consider it to be "their test". Troed (talk) 17:11, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Whether Mats Lewin considers it to be 'their test' or not is irrelevant - they made the measurements, and as such are a primary source for such measurements. Ny Teknik may very well be 'highly regarded by engineers', but they are not qualified to make such tests, they are not a peer-reviewed journal, and they themselves admit to the unreliability of their results. Actually, If you are suggesting that Mats Lewin was only recording measurements made on equipment set up by someone else (Who? And we need a source for that), the measurements become even less useful. And no, Wikipedia contributors cannot 'validate' sources - except by demonstrating that they meet the required standards - which can only be done with published material. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

IMHO there was also another relevant thing that Maurizio Melis wrote in his article:
"misure indipendenti, effettuate da alcuni dei presenti, per quanto imprecise, hanno di fatto confermato le letture di Rossi"
TRANSLATION:
"independent measurements, as far as unaccurate could be, taken by some of the participating people, do in fact have confirmed the reading made by Rossi."

So it would be possible to assume that other sources, beyond Ny Teknik, are able to publish independent measurements concerning the event.
If the assumption is right then other sources, like Focus for example, should have taken measurements and hence it is reasonable to suppose they will publish these measurements.
In the end, we should have at least three sources: Mats Lewan of Ny Teknik, Maurizio Melis of Il Sole 24 Ore, and Raymond Zreick of Focus.
Therefore, let's wait Focus and then compare the sources in order to skim off possible "misprints".--79.16.137.6 (talk) 05:14, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Deletions

User:IRWolfie- deleted two sections.

The Media coverage section was discussed some time ago [8].

The October Demonstration deletion appears to me a blatant attempt to bypass 3RR [9] as can be concluded from the edit comment.

I do not think the article benefits from these deletions. --POVbrigand (talk) 20:08, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Given your refusal to address the issues raised with the material, and your persistent breaches of WP:CIVIL, I don't see how what you think is relevant. Articles are supposed to conform to policy and guidelines - which this one clearly doesn't. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:14, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I think that I have already worked on the issues raised with the material. I do not know where I have persistently breach civility. I understand that you don't think that what I say is relevant, which doesn't mean you are right about it. --POVbrigand (talk) 20:19, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

As we're talking about deletions I've moved my last nights comments here;

• All of the details from the demonstrations should be removed, and the header should be expanded to maybe state the notable people who were present for the demonstrations until such time as there is new information or the system is indepentantly tested. Listing that he demonstrated a heating element without verifiable sources of how or what it contains, falls foul of WP:WEIGHT, WP:FRINGE and taken from WP:REDFLAG "Any exceptional claim requires high-quality sources" as of now the only decent sources are that he has garnered media attention, for this and this only is the e-cat notable. ^Khukri 19:04, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Until we have something reliably sourced that says that this is LENR or cold fusion, this article should be treated with the weight it deserves. ^Khukri 20:20, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

A reliable source that says there is unexplainable anomalous heat will be of sufficient note. (see my previous comments) Alanf777 (talk) 02:11, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The only 'reliable source' that would be able to make any authoritative statements about 'anomalous heat' would be one capable of confirming the anomaly - which is to say a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal, reporting on a controlled test under conditions capable of ruling out 'non-anomalous' heat sources. As yet, there has been nothing remotely approaching this: "The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness." (Laplace, apparently - though others have said much the same thing. WP:FRINGE is based on the same principle, and see also WP:REDFLAG in particular). AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Ny Teknik and primary sourcing

I think we have a serious problem regarding the use we are putting material from Ny Teknik to in the article: in as much as it is writing about tests it conducts itself, it is clearly a primary source - and as such it should not be used as the sole cited source for statements. Indeed, given that the detailed reports are not only primary, but written on a 'scientific' topic, while describing tests carried out by unqualified persons, and totally lacking any peer review, I suggest that they arguably should not be used at all. Ny Teknik is now just too closely involved with the E-Cat to be seen as an independent third-party source. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:23, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I do not think we have a serious problem --POVbrigand (talk) 20:27, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

The article is full of lots of original research and primary sourcing from dubious/fringe sources like Ny Teknik (it's an technology magazine!), the new energy and the cold fusion publishing journal Il Nuovo Cimento (it seems to be peer reviewed in the sense that it is reviewed by other cold fusion believers). 20:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

what is your problem with Il Nuovo Cimento ? --POVbrigand (talk) 20:38, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I report here what I have already wrote before:
IMHO there was also another relevant thing that Maurizio Melis wrote in his article:
"misure indipendenti, effettuate da alcuni dei presenti, per quanto imprecise, hanno di fatto confermato le letture di Rossi"
TRANSLATION:
"independent measurements, as far as unaccurate could be, taken by some of the participating people, do in fact have confirmed the reading made by Rossi."

So it would be possible to assume that other sources, beyond Ny Teknik, are able to publish independent measurements concerning the event.
If the assumption is right then other sources, like Focus for example, should have taken measurements and hence it is reasonable to suppose they will publish these measurements.
In the end, we should have at least three sources: Mats Lewan of Ny Teknik, Maurizio Melis of Il Sole 24 Ore, and Raymond Zreick of Focus.
Therefore, let's wait Focus and then compare the sources in order to skim off possible "misprints".--79.16.137.6 (talk) 05:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Three primary sources publishing their own 'results' from the same demonstration doesn't alter the fact that they are primary sources - none of which is qualified to make any assertions regarding the science involved. The 'measurements' are meaningless in any case unless it is known what it is that is actually being measured - and as long as Rossi refuses to reveal such details necessary for independent verification to take place, they will remain so. This isn't a blog, and we don't need to detail every showing of whatever version of the teapot Rossi comes up with next. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:14, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Ny Teknik is a reliable source and as they reports the news they are not a primary source. // Liftarn (talk)

Please refer to Wikipedia policy (and common sense). If Ny Teknik report their own measurements, they are the primary source for such measurements (or if they aren't, can you tell me who is?). AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:58, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Andy that the WP-article should not use the measurement data from Ny teknik because: 1) there is some truth in what Andy says about Nyteknik being a primary source for the measurements. 2) The article should not copy/paste all this technical detail. The WP-reader who is interested in the technical details should go to Nyteknik and read for themselves.

Therefore there is no real benefit for us to further discuss opinions (claim - counter claim) about whether Nyteknik made the measurements themselves, or if these measurements were done properly or how much they are involved in the setup of the demonstration. Our WP-article does not need to mention the technical measurement details.

However, the non measurement part of the Nyteknik reports is perfect secondary source for our WP-article. Which doesn't mean we can copy/paste every bit of interesting information out of each and every Ny teknik report.

To put the demonstrations into perspective: The whole demonstration "phase" we are currently seeing will be completely insignificant once we get solid proof of either LENR or not LENR (that's the question). As soon as this current phase is over, nobody will care if 3.5kW power was outputted for 1, 2, or 3 hours during some April demonstration. --POVbrigand (talk) 13:45, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The job of newspapers is to report. By reporting they are not themselves a primary source. The only thing that should matter is if they are a reliable source or not and I think we have established that already. As for the crystal ball I think the currently known facts should be in the article. If something changes down the road they may be removed if necessary. // Liftarn (talk)

I agree as to what 'the job of newspapers is': the point is that Ny Teknik, in making measurements at the demonstration weren't doing a 'newspaper' job - they are supposed to report others' results, not create their own. And you didn't answer my question - if they aren't the primary source for this data, who is? AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think reporting simple observations make them a primary source. It's like saying a book review can not be used since the journalist read the book. // Liftarn (talk)

I understand your position, but I also understand Andy's position. I checked at WP:PRIMARY and am quite sure it supports my view: "Primary sources are very close to an event, often accounts written by people who are directly involved, offering an insider's view of an event, ..." and "Whether a source is primary or secondary depends on context.". My assessment is that the article does not need the measurement data (interested readers can look them up for themselves in the sources), therefore we might as well not use them and build a concensus. --POVbrigand (talk) 10:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. Reporters are not directly involved in a way to make them primary sources. The measurement data (how long it ran self-sustained and power output) is what is interesting in the story. The list of spectators is less interesting. Anyway, we could bring it to WP:RSN is you want. // Liftarn (talk)

I also think that Nyteknik is a reliable source, that's not the issue for me. But I do think that taking measurement data and reporting it means primary source. So the question is not reliable source? but primary source or secondary source? for the measurement data. I fully understand your feeling, I also want to know what was measured, for how long, all the facts. The measurement data is available on the internet for everyone to read. Nothing is "lost" if we do not include it in WP. And just in case we misunderstand each other, with measurement data I mean 150W, 3.8kWh, 3 hours, 110°C. All those data points from all those demonstrations will be not very interesting anyway as soon as the "cat is out of the bag" :-) --POVbrigand (talk) 12:34, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok, toss in a "according to measurements done by Ny Teknik". // Liftarn (talk)

We should only be reporting measurements from scientific peer-reviewed literature since extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof on wikipedia. Also they are a primary source they were actively involved in the demonstration (they were there). A secondary source would be a source, with no links to Ny Teknik or the demonstrations in any capacity, talking about the results. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:39, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok, now[10] we have some secondary analysis of the measurment. "Three extensive subsequent analyses have been done by the Americans Horace Heffner, David Roberson and Bob Higgins." // Liftarn (talk)

...None of which are published in a peer-reviewed journal - and all merely based on the 'results' that Ny Teknik itself admitted were unreliable. In any case, is there actually any indication that Heffner, Roberson or Higgins are qualified to make any meaningful analysis? Ny Teknik seems not to give any. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:21, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

@Andy, your 'not peer-reviewed journal' defence is not even necessary, why use so strong words :-). For me it is clear that the analysis by those gentlemen is not going to improve the WP-article. I really do not see a reasonable need to use any of it, because what these assessments essentially state is already in our article. What I do like about it is that these gentlemen (who post regularly on the Vortex-l forum) undoubtedly gave it their best to perform an analysis on the collected data and could only make qualitative conclusions varying from "negative excess heat" to "significant excess heat" and all stated that the measurements were not reliable enough. We already knew that. --POVbrigand (talk) 12:13, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

As we have a secondary source it can now be used in the article. The "peer-reviewed literature" requirement is bogus~as no such requirement is needed. // Liftarn (talk)

Section "Attempts at theoretical explanation"

The sections to the article and the following physics explanation were based on an unpublished/non-peer reviewed article, it's not a credible source to use. IRWolfie- (talk) 21:12, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Strictly speaking you are right. So we'll just have to paste it back in whenever it does get published. Please note that the underlying theoretical work from Kim is published in peer reviewed journals: European Physical Journal, Naturwissenschaften, Japanese Journal of Applied Physics to name a few --POVbrigand (talk) 21:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

This was extensively discussed in talk at the time. He is a reputable scientist (Fellow APS), at a reputable university (Perdue) - and published (as an official University document) a preview of an invited talk (by definition not peer reviewed) at a reputable conference. I propose re-undoing it (as-was) and updating it when the proceedings are published.

In any case, we have an informal agreement here to propose changes in talk rather than jumping and and doing stuff. Alanf777 (talk) 02:07, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Do we? Per normal Wikipedia guidelines, this is encouraged when there is debate - though some contributors seem to think that they are immune to such considerations. In any case, the article is now fully protected, so nothing can be changed without agreement - and until we can agree about the fundamental issues regarding sourcing, there is little hope of that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Andy, please stop accusing me of being unwilling to debate ! Your statements about my unwillingness are totally false. I do not disagree to debate. I only disagree with the mode of debate you are proposing. To me it looks like 1) you delete a whole section, 2) you demand proposals are first discussed on the talk page. Whereas my way forward is: 1) discuss the section on the talk page, 2) delete parts that are not ok. --POVbrigand (talk) 09:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

As I already wrote, IMHO there was also another relevant thing that Maurizio Melis wrote in his article:
"misure indipendenti, effettuate da alcuni dei presenti, per quanto imprecise, hanno di fatto confermato le letture di Rossi"
TRANSLATION:
"independent measurements, as far as unaccurate could be, taken by some of the participating people, do in fact have confirmed the reading made by Rossi."

So it would be possible to assume that other sources, beyond Ny Teknik, are able to publish independent measurements concerning the event.
If the assumption is right then other sources, like Focus for example, should have taken measurements and hence it is reasonable to suppose they will publish these measurements.
In the end, we should have at least three sources: Mats Lewan of Ny Teknik, Maurizio Melis of Il Sole 24 Ore, and Raymon Zreick of Focus.
Therefore, let's wait Focus and then compare the sources in order to skim off possible "misprints". --79.16.137.6 (talk) 04:57, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

'Commercial plans'

I think that this section will need a new title - with the Defkalion agreement falling through, and now the U.S. deal apparently doing the same, there seems to be no sourced evidence for any remaining 'commercial plans' at all. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:28, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Andy,

AmpEnergo does exist.

About the OTHER US PARTNER of which Ny Teknik discusses: we are talking about a partner whose name has never been revealed.

--79.16.137.6 (talk) 03:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Can I ask how you know this? Nothing in the sources we have been shown says anything of the kind. In any case, until it is published in independent reliable sources, it is irrelevant to the article. As of now, there appear to be no 'commercial plans' that we know of. The section title is misleading. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:44, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Search www.e-cat.com and you will discover who is the unnamed other one.--79.20.142.155 (talk) 18:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

No - www.e-cat.com is not a reliable source. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:06, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

My proposal: "claims of commercialization" or one step further: "claims of planned commercialization". --POVbrigand (talk) 06:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

both sounds reasonable IMHO.--79.16.138.239 (talk) 07:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

See WP:CRYSTALBALL: we do not publish 'claims' sourced solely to purveyors of hype. There is no reliable source for any 'planned commercialisation' whatsoever. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:13, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Mmm... AndyTheGrump is right.--79.6.146.234 (talk) 12:59, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

"And the E-Cat development has thrown up its own scandal. Until August of this year, Rossi was planning his big launch in Greece, and an E-Cat factory was being built in Xanthi. But the deal has somehow fallen through for unexplained reasons, vaguely blamed on pressure from "international energy interests" who may be threatened by the invention."

"The megawatt E-Cat will be unveiled in America. Rossi has licensed the technology to a start-up called Ampenergo. Though new, the company has credentials; one of its founders is Robert Gentile, Assistant Secretary of Energy for Fossil Energy at the US Department of Energy (DOE) in the 90's."

Licensing a technology to me sure sounds like commercialization. Reliably sourced by a secondary source.

But we might agree of another title for the section. Andy, what would your proposal for the title be ? --POVbrigand (talk) 13:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but what about the report in Ny Teknik that the U.S. deal has been cancelled? [11] Frankly, until the E-Cat is actually being sold, any discussion of commercialisation is speculative, and need not go in the article at all. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:38, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump has some points here. SUGGESTION: wait until the end of the month. Then deleted it if no relevant novelties emerge. This just to avoid possible do&undo.--79.6.146.234 (talk) 15:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Il Nuovo Cimento is the most well respected Italian scientific journal since 1855

Published by the Italian Physical Society. Fermi wrote on it, Majorana wrote on it, hence please STOP writing deceptive humbugs about IL NUOVO CIMENTO.
--79.16.137.6 (talk) 04:40, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

What source do you have that it is currently the most respected italian journal? IRWolfie- (talk) 14:50, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The most respected Italian SCIENTIFIC journal: IT IS THE OFFICIAL JOURNAL OF THE ITALIAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.

The Italian Physical Society is the Italian equivalent of the German Physical Society (for example) and both are parts of the European Physical Society, hence Il Nuovo Cimento is also part of the European Physical Journal.

We are talking about SCIENCE not fashon or Italian cuisine.

--79.10.132.219 (talk) 15:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

And we are talking about Wikipedia guidelines, such grand statements need to be backed up with sources. ^Khukri 16:04, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia guidelines state that facts should be verifiable. What 79.10 stated about Il Nuovo Cimento is verifiable. If you don't believe it, why don't you convince yourself of the verifiability yourself ? You really disappoint me [12] --POVbrigand (talk) 16:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Why I'm not the one making the statement, IRWolfie asked for sources, none were given. I have no position on the journal, I just added emphasis that Wikipedia is run by verifiable sources. If an editor wants me or others to take something into consideration, bring the sources, not just hand waving and insisting it's true. Whether I disappoint you or not is something I'm not interested in, all I care about is that this article, is verifiable based on reliable source or not original research and doesn't fall foul of WP:UNDUE, WP:FRINGE and WP:REDFLAG which at this time it clearly does.^Khukri 16:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok, so NOW can we conclude that Il Nuovo Cimento is a well respected serius 100% scientific peer reviewed journal? I hope so.

--79.10.132.219 (talk) 17:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Sources still have not been supplied that it is currently the most respected italian journal, so nothing has been concluded. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:47, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

@Khukri, no problem. For me it is sometimes a bit bothersome having to explain that there are more peer reviewed journals that just Nature and Science. --POVbrigand (talk) 17:50, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Why do you presume I am ignorant of the existence of other peer reviewed journals? This does nothing to address the concerns about Il Nuovo Cimento and its links to Cold Fusion. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:50, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

There must be no concern if the journal is 100% super ultra peer reviewed like Il Nuovo Cimento.

--79.10.132.219 (talk) 20:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

This you will prove with some good modern and up to date secondary sources surely? IRWolfie- (talk) 20:08, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

No, because it is not my job. Scientists have pondered the work of Focardi et al before publishing it on Il Nuovo Cimento. Further scientists must take the work of Focardi et al, study it, and then repeat the experiment. This must be done by physicists and not by me as user of Wikipedia.

--79.10.132.219 (talk) 20:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

You must misunderstand me, I am looking for secondary sources to show that "the journal is 100% super ultra peer reviewed" and that it "is the most well respected Italian scientific journal since 1855". IRWolfie- (talk) 20:28, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

@IRWolfie, you write "It should be noted as well that Il Nuovo Cimento is also a cold fusion journal". What are you trying to imply with that ? Do you mean that you as a WP-editor can decide that the peer reviewed journal "Il Nuovo Cimento" which is published by the Italian physical society is no good, because they have published cold fusion papers ? Does that mean the other numerous well respected peer reviewed journals that have published cold fusion articles are also no good ? --POVbrigand (talk) 20:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I mean exactly what I said, I want some form of evidence that "the journal is 100% super ultra peer reviewed" and that it "is the most well respected Italian scientific journal since 1855" as claimed. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I suspect that our Italian IP may not have meant exactly what you understand "the most well respected Italian scientific journal since 1855" to mean. He may well mean (a) that it has existed since 1855, and (b) that it has been well respected all that time. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:53, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe the description 'renown national initiative by the EPJ can satisfy you: [13] "Since then, EPJ has gradually and successfully been integrated over the years through co-operation with renowned national initiatives like Anales de Fisica, Czechoslovak Journal of Physics, Il Nuovo Cimento, Journal de Physique, Portugaliae Physica and Zeitschrift für Physik.". --POVbrigand (talk) 14:25, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

It's hard to establish what the Impact factor of "Nuovo Cimento A" was before it was amalgamated though, I can't seem to find it, this would establish how influential it was etc. The article says "Closely related work by Focardi was published in 1998 in the peer-reviewed scientific journal Il Nuovo Cimento A". This was about ten years before what Rossi did; it seems to be a synthesis to link it to the article. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:52, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

We have already discussed it in the past. The work is closely related because Focardi et al were the first physicists who decided to use the Nickel+Hydrogen system, instead of the ubiquitous Palladium+Deuterium one. Andrea Rossi started from the work of Focardi et al, and then advanced their system together with Sergio Focardi.--79.20.142.155 (talk) 15:28, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes it is closely related, but we might as well use the wording from the lead of the article: "Claims of a similar system, but yielding considerably less power, had previously been advanced by Focardi et al." --POVbrigand (talk) 16:25, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

You are inferring they are related, they must be explicitly linked by reliable secondary sources. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:45, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Please feel free to continue your personal crusade against the mentioning of "Il Nuovo Cimento". It doesn't bother me. Common sense should suffice to state that similar claims of Ni-H excess energy systems by the same Prof are indeed ... similar. --POVbrigand (talk) 16:32, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

No, secondary sources are required as they may not be similar but actually be different. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I will help you a bit: the secondary source you are looking for was mentioned in the "Media coverage" section before you deleted it. So it is verifiable, thank you. --POVbrigand (talk) 15:09, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Before the tone of this discussion deteriorates any further, may I point out that the subject of this article is not a journal, but a device? The only reasonable place for a discussion of how to describe Il Nuovo Cimento would be Talk:Il Nuovo Cimento. We don't normally characterize serials in the text of articles that are not about them, and we only mention them with in-text attributions when they are being quoted. Otherwise we simply use citation footnotes as normal. If there are serious questions as to whether a specific cited article in that journal is sufficiently reliable to support a specific text in our Energy Catalyzer article, please provide a wp:diff that shows the questionable insertion. If we cannot find consensus on the reliability for the purpose of that insertion, we can then refer the matter to wp:RSN to get other opinions. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:53, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Let's work together instead of edit warring

There is really no need for this escalation.

This is my assessment:

1) There is a dispute about the RS of Nyteknik.

1.1) POVbrigand's view: Nyteknik is perfect RS most of the time, but there is no need to copy/paste the whole Nyteknik info.

2) There is disagreement about the mode of editing: deletion of whole sections vs. deletion of bad parts

2.1) POVbrigand's view: I object to rigorous deleting of whole sections. I object to waiving policies around to give a deletion credibility. Many reasons for deletion are not to the point.

3) There is a general misunderstanding on what this article should offer to the WP-readership.

3.1) POVbrigand's view: this article should offer the reader an overview what is going on with this rossi e-cat thing, it should not try to convince the reader that the device actually does what Rossi claims, because it is still not proven. Rossi gave demonstrations and demonstration are not scientific proof. I share the view with Khukri that "it might well be a tea pot". But that doesn't mean the demonstrations didn't happen and it doesn't mean quotations from scientists around the world didn't happen. On the other hand the article should not try to convince the reader that the whole thing is a scam.

@Andy, you said "I see that POVbrigand has started by summarising the demonstrations (not 'tests' - that would imply more rigour than is evident). I think we can cut the remainder down to a single paragraph - we don't need all the dates, durations etc for each one.". At that point of time we were cooperating quite good. Why are we in this dispute right now, it is a waste of time.

I think there is no huge problem to get back to cooperating to improve the article. --POVbrigand (talk) 10:10, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The point for me is how are the demonstrations notable? If we have unverified claims of cold fusion, until this is verified we are implying notability through these demonstrations even though no-one except rossi knows what is being demonstrated. The moment it becomes verified then hell yes it's notable, but until then they shouldn't be included at all. ^Khukri 11:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I quote AndyTheGrump:

The only 'reliable source' that would be able to make any authoritative statements about 'anomalous heat' would be one capable of confirming the anomaly - which is to say a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal, reporting on a controlled test under conditions capable of ruling out 'non-anomalous' heat sources. As yet, there has been nothing remotely approaching this: "The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness." (Laplace, apparently - though others have said much the same thing. WP:FRINGE is based on the same principle, and see also WP:REDFLAG in particular). AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I think nobody can disagree with this statement of AndyTheGrump. Said that, IMHO what must be established is this:
if we have AT LEAST THREE INDEPENDENT SOURCES
(Mats Lewan of Ny Teknik, Maurizio Melis of Il Sole 24 Ore, Raymond Zreick of Focus)
then is it possible to compare them and see what can be kept and what can be removed concerning the demo of 6 October 2011?
--79.10.132.219 (talk) 11:36, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand why you are quoting me there. I said nothing about 'three independent sources' - I said that for claims about anomalous heat to be verified, the E-Cat would have to be properly tested, and the results published in a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal. The tests have not taken place, and the results have not been published in any such journal. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:00, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

@Khukri, as I initiated here, I am all for it. I have already written a wrap up proposal. I have already changed the separate sections for January to April to one section. My proposal is to step by step prune the January to April section.

The Nyteknik is a reliable source for the demonstrations, the fact that they took place and who was there. Nyteknik is not a source for describing what might be the underlying mechanism (LENR or not LENR). It is verifiable that heat was produced, it is not verifiable how this heat was produced (LENR or not LENR). It is verifiable that demonstrations were given, it is not verifiable that Rossi claims are true it is not verifiable that Rossi claims are false. It is verifiable that Rossi claims something, it is not verifiable that his claims have been verified. It is verifiable that his claims have not been verified. It is verifiable that some observers have made quotes about the device, it is not verifiable if these observers are right or wrong (LENR or not LENR). --POVbrigand (talk) 13:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Ny Tekink is a primary source regarding anything it measures during the demonstrations - this is an incontestable fact. It is not verifiable that any heat produced by the E-Cat was in any way related to anything Rossi claims. The 'demonstrations' tell us nothing beyond the fact that some people believe that Rossi's magic teapot works - we don't need to summarise anything beyond the raw fact that demonstrations have occurred, and some people think there is something to it. There is nothing new whatsoever to report regarding the Oct 6th tests beyond the fact that more people take Rossi's claims seriously. The rest is bad 'science', and hype. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:00, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with your view that we should not use the measurement data from Nyteknik, but currently nothing at all is written in the article about the October 6 demonstration due to the section being completely deleted. --POVbrigand (talk) 15:24, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump wrote:

"I said nothing about 'three independent sources' - I said that for claims about anomalous heat to be verified, the E-Cat would have to be properly tested, and the results published in a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal. The tests have not taken place, and the results have not been published in any such journal."

And I 100% agree with you, AndyTheGrump. Established that, is it possible to write about the demo of 6 October 2011?

And, by the way, in the lede it is so written:
"Ny Teknik and the New Energy Times, together with other sources, have since published less favourable reports".
Now, is it true or is it untrue that Ny Teknik has since published less favourable reports?
In my opinion this is untrue, as you can clearly understand by the title of the last article of Ny Teknik:
"New test of the E-cat enhances proof of heat".
Ergo, how can "enhances proof of heat" be considered as pejorative?
--79.10.132.219 (talk) 16:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Ny Teknik is in no position to make such a claim. For inclusion in Wikipedia, controversial scientific claims need to be sourced to reputable peer-reviewed scientific journals. This is policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:52, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

This is NOT what I asked you.

I asked you if it is true or it is untrue that Ny Teknik has since published less favourable reports.

Hence, I repeat my question to you:

is it true or is it untrue that Ny Teknik has since published less favourable reports?

--79.10.132.219 (talk) 17:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I have already answered this (see here: [14]) Their reporting in September was much more sceptical than their early reports. Also, I suggest that when you quote me, you quote the entire sentence, where I made it quite clear what I meant. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

And what about the last article of Ny Teknik? Do you think that it is pejorative or meliorative in its judgement on the E-Cat compared to the previous ones?

--79.10.132.219 (talk) 18:08, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The lede was written before Ny Teknik's latest article - and our article is currently locked against editing. In any case, I have made clear elsewhere on this page my opinion regarding our use of Ny Teknik to report its own measurements (not that they are claiming that the latest ones are reliable either) AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:15, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

IMHO what we should do now is to continue to redact what we can believe to be the best text we can obtain regardless the blocking of the page.
Hence, it would be important to overcome problematic issues now, i.e. before the unblocking of the page.
For example, IMHO a good section concerning the demo of 6 October 2011 should be like this:

On October 6th, 2011, reporter Mats Lewan from Ny Teknik, scientific journalist Marizio Melis from Il Sole 24 Ore, and scientific editor in chief Raymond Zreick from Focus witnessed a demonstration regarding the Energy Catalyzer in Bologna. Roland Pettersson, retired Associate Professor from the University of Uppsala, who was also present, said: "I'm convinced that this works, but there is still room for more measurements".

--79.10.132.219 (talk) 18:54, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Post Scriptum
Scientific editor in chief Raymond Zreick from Focus published a series of articles (in Italian):

• 6 OTTOBRE:

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/6-ottobre_PC12.aspx

• I PREPARATIVI:

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/i-preparativi_19714201_PC12.aspx

• L'ACCENSIONE:

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/l-accensione_PC12.aspx

• AUTOSOSTENTAMENTO (3 ORE O 4?):

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/autosostentamento-3-ore-o-4_PC12.aspx

• CHE COSA C'E' DENTRO ALL'E-CAT:

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/che-cosa-c-e-dentro-all-e-cat_PC12.aspx

• COME INTERPRETARE I RISULTATI:

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/come-interpretare-i-risultati_PC12.aspx

• LE DOMANDE DEL GIORNO DOPO:

http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/le-domande-del-giorno-dopo_PC12.aspx

--79.10.132.219 (talk) 19:05, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Please stop spamming links, unless you wish to include exactly why they are pertinant, this above list is meaningless without the context. I will remove future link spams. ^Khukri 19:42, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Do you work at CERN in Geneva? Good for you.

This is no spam, there is an issue concerning Ny Teknik and raised by AndyTheGrump: not enough reliable sources.

Hence, in a such delicate case like this, it is 100% necessary that all the reliable sources that directly witnessed the event are reported.

As I have already wrote, in this case independent sources must be compared in order to see what can be kept and what can be removed concerning the demo of 6 October 2011.

--79.10.132.219 (talk) 19:56, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

You should state then what part of the link, preferably using quotes meets the questions raised. As I pointed out to POVBrigade, it is not for other editors to shift through links to find the pertinent information. ^Khukri 20:00, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

What was raised was the lack of results published in a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal, which these links don't address. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

IRWolfie, you will need results published in a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal if you want to talk about the physics, the functioning of the device. But nobody here want to assert anything about the physics, because nothing is known about the physics. We are NOT writing a physics article, we are writing a non-physics article. We are writing about the demonstrations and what notable (>>notable than the average WP-editor) people have been saying about it. --POVbrigand (talk) 21:23, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Notability isn't what average readers thinks, it's one of Wikipedia's core standards. We are writing an article based on fact, not inference, rumour, conjecture and assumption. ^Khukri 21:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I did not say WP:N, I said notable people. There is no inference, rumour, conjecture and assumption in the fact that there is an italian engineer who claims something and well known magazines and other press outlets choose to publish an article about that. It is fully in line with WP-policy to write a WP-article on that. --POVbrigand (talk) 22:03, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Wrong, just because someone makes an outlandish claim isn't grounds for inclusion in wikipedia, I remind you yet again WP:REDFLAG "Any exceptional claim requires high-quality sources." he has ZERO, and the only reason this article is here is due to minor notability in that it has gained media attention. ^Khukri 22:13, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Focus published the list of the persons who were present during the demonstration of October 6th, 2011:

• http://www.focus.it/fileflash/energia/fusionefredda/ecat/ECAT_Presenze6ott11.pdf

Among them there are some university professors (I counted four professors from University of Bologna, one of them is Loris Ferrari), journalists and a delegation from Confindustria. Il Sole 24 Ore was represented by scientific journalist Maurizio Melis. Il Sole 24 Ore is an Italian national daily business newspaper owned by Confindustria, the Italian employers' federation.
--79.20.142.155 (talk) 05:59, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

So what? The presence of individuals at the demonstration is no indication that they accept any of the claims made about the E-[Cat. And even if they do, until the device is given proper independent scientific investigation, and the results published in a recognised peer-reviewed scientific journal, we cannot make any statements about whether the device works. This is Wikipedia policy, it is not negotiable. The article has far too much unverifiable speculation already - we don't need to add more. AndyTheGrump (talk)

Bologna, October 2011 section removed

I noticed the section

On October 6th 2011 an E-cat ran in a completely stable self sustained mode for over three hours. The power output was estimated to be between two and three kilowatts. Roland Pettersson, retired Associate Professor from the University of Uppsala, who witnessed it said "I'm convinced that this works, but there is still room for more measurements".

was removed entirely. It's sourced to a reliable source so I see no need to delete it. // Liftarn (talk)

I have already made a proposal in order to overcome all the possible issues that can be questioned.

PROPOSED SECTION:

On October 6th, 2011, reporter Mats Lewan from Ny Teknik, scientific journalist Marizio Melis from Il Sole 24 Ore, and scientific editor in chief Raymond Zreick from Focus witnessed a demonstration regarding the Energy Catalyzer in Bologna. Roland Pettersson, retired Associate Professor from the University of Uppsala, who was also present, said: "I'm convinced that this works, but there is still room for more measurements".

--79.20.142.155 (talk) 09:12, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

On October 6, around 20 to 30 invited guests witnessed a demonstration. Roland Pettersson, retired Associate Professor from the University of Uppsala, who was also present, said: "I'm convinced that this works, but there is still room for more measurements". Among the guests were reporters and journalists, several of which noted that the accuracy of the measurements was fairly low.

my proposal, NPOV, but not perfect yet. --POVbrigand (talk) 11:25, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

No problem for me: I do appreciate your version.

JUST A THING: the list counts 33 persons.

--79.20.142.155 (talk) 12:05, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Neither of those versions give the same information as the removed section. It don't say anything about the self sustained mode or the power output. // Liftarn (talk)

Quite right too - until we see the results of independent scientific investigations published in a reputable peer-reviewed journal, to describe such fluff as 'information' is a breach of Wikipedia policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

No, it's reported in a reliable source so unless you have some equally reliable source saying it did not happen it can go into the article. // Liftarn (talk)

Yes, Ny teknik is in principle a reliable source, but I agree with Andy's opinion that the measurement data should be regarded as primary data (I explained my thoughts here: [15]). If you would support my version of the october 6 demontration we could get to a concensus. --POVbrigand (talk) 09:15, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

No, for new scientific results, especially if contentious, then independent scientific investigations published in a reputable peer-reviewed journal -are- required."In general, scientific information in Wikipedia articles should be based on published, reliable secondary sources, or on widely cited tertiary and primary sources." (emphasis mine) also see WP:REDFLAG "Any exceptional claim requires high-quality sources.". IRWolfie- (talk) 15:38, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

straw man --POVbrigand (talk) 17:10, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Demonstrations wrap up

January to April demonstrations

Held in Bologna, January 14, 2011, the demonstration was monitored by independent scientific representatives of the University of Bologna, including a researcher in physics, Giuseppe Levi. Levi concluded that the power and energy produced was "impressive," and that the Energy Catalyzer might be working as a new type of energy source. Discovery Channel analyst Benjamin Radford wrote that "If this all sounds fishy to you, it should,"[13] and that "In many ways cold fusion is similar to perpetual motion machines. The principles defy the laws of physics, but that doesn’t stop people from periodically claiming to have invented or discovered one."[14]

Another demonstration was performed in Bologna, from February 10–11, 2011, by Levi and Rossi, but was not conducted in public.[16]

On March 29, 2011 two Swedish physicists, Hanno Essén, associate professor of theoretical physics and a lecturer at the Swedish Royal Institute of Technology and former chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society and Sven Kullander, Professor Emeritus at Uppsala University and also chairman of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences’ Energy Committee, participated as observers in a demonstration.[17] Essen and Kullander reported, "Any chemical process should be ruled out for producing 25 kWh from whatever is in a 50 cubic centimeter container. The only alternative explanation is that there is some kind of a nuclear process that gives rise to the measured energy production."[19] In a later conversation, a few months after the test, Essén stated "I want to wait for more facts. The facts I know add up to make this interesting and worth pursuing, but I am still very uncertain about this."[20]

On April 19[22] and April 28[23] two more demonstrations were held. The first of them[24] was also covered by the Italian 24-hour all-news State-owned television channel Rai News.[25] This time a Ny Teknik author attended and tested for some previously noted possibilities of fraud. [24]

--POVbrigand (talk) 11:40, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Any feedback to this wrap up ? If we can agree on this we replace it with the current version. --POVbrigand (talk) 06:21, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate the effort you've gone to here, but I'm sorry I still have to see what's notable about these demonstrations, when no-one knows what was being demonstrated. ^Khukri 06:44, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Notability is not a criteria for (dis)allowing content into an article: "Notability guidelines do not limit content within an article - The criteria applied to article content are not the same as those applied to article creation. The notability guidelines do not apply to article or list content (with the exception that some lists restrict inclusion to notable items or people). Content coverage within a given article or list is governed by the principle of due weight and other content policies. For additional information about list articles, see Notability and lists and Lead and selection criteria." --POVbrigand (talk) 07:45, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry you misunderstood I didn't mean the as per notability guidelines, if we are reporting on demonstration and no-one knows what it being demonstrated, it would be un-encyclopedic of us to report on something on the say so of one or two people. For me the demonstrations are not notable / irrelevant as no-one apart from Rossi has any idea of what is being demonstrated. How can we, as a serious encyclopedia, have paragraphs on demonstrations that were carried out when have zero ideas on what he was demonstrating? To do so, goes against all the guidelines I have repeatedly added above. I think we should stop this article in its tracks, using Wikipedia as the blatant publicisation of something that has zero proof, and very little from main stream science at this time. If it is what it says then we will deal that when the time comes. But as of now it is no different to snake oil, and is only notable due to the fact Rossi can get a couple of online interviews, and certainly not for his teapot. ^Khukri 11:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I think you will have a hard time to get consensus for your view. If you feel that the media outlets are blatantly publicising something do not not agree with, I suggest you address your complaint to the editors of those media outlets and not at the WP-editors who use those secondary sources to write a policy-compliant WP-article of it. --POVbrigand (talk) 11:32, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so looking on this talk page, there is you and COI IP, and then there's everyone else. OK question what was being demonstrated? simple question without just saying e-cat? ^Khukri 11:53, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Can you rephrase that please ?--POVbrigand (talk) 12:08, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

If you want to include results of a scientific experiment, they must be in a peer reviewed journal. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:36, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

If you want to argue with a straw man, you must be out of real arguments --POVbrigand (talk) 17:07, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

It isn't a 'straw man' - it is Wikipedia policy. If we refer to the 'results' of demonstrations, we are implying that they are scientific - and they aren't. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:41, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

It's clear POV and I disagree on this section and it's inclusion. Might I just ask IRWolfie, Andy and others, what are your views on the demonstrations section as a whole, and can you think of any rationale why it should be included? Thanks ^Khukri 17:45, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Given that none of them even approximate a proper scientific trial, they can really be seen as nothing more than attempts by Rossi to get publicity - so I'd say it is questionable as to whether they merit more than the briefest mention. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:50, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 10 October 2011

LYNE ATOMIC HYDROGEN FURNACE

This invention is obviously a version of my LYNE ATOMIC HYDROGEN FURNACE derived from my Chapter VI from my 1997-98 second edition of Occult Ether Physics as in http://asse.altervista.org/lahg.pdf , published with my permission in 2003. The illustration which is included near the last page of my book shows that a "catalytic metal" is used to trigger the re-association of atomic hydrogen,though this is unnecessary. The reaction chamber of the Rossi-Focardi device however is completely filled with powdered nickel rather than using a catalytic metal trigger device at the entrance of the atomic hydrogen into the chamber as shown by my 1996 drawing. In the place of using a stream of H2 passing through an electric arc as in my drawing, Rossi-Focardi apparently used Nichrome resistance heating wire to disociate the H2 to H1 similar to how Irving Langmuir did with the exception that "no tungsten was used" as Rossi said, since Nichrome is not tungsten. There have been several other tests of this device but this is the first version of my furnace by other researchers which is industrial-grade, other than my re-design over the past 15 years which is not yet disclosed. In 2003 I was made an honorary member of a Rome group of gentlemen researchers, http://asse.altervista.org.altrascienza.html year 4, Number 20, Sept.-Oct. 2003, to which group I gave permission to distribute copies of my work to its members and associates in Italy. It is presumed that this is how the two University of Bologna professors eventually obtained copies of my work and began their experiments as did members of that Rome group did beginning in 2003.

William R. Lyne

75.104.30.83 (talk) 18:35, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Bility (talk) 19:45, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are based on reliable published sources - unless one states that Rossi's E-Cat is based on the 'LYNE ATOMIC HYDROGEN FURNACE', it is of no relevance to the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

1MW plant: 28 October 2011

Raymond Zreick of Focus wrote:

Rossi ha appena annunciato che il 28 ottobre si terrà il test dell'impianto da 1 MW: oltre a questo non so nulla, tranne il fatto che siamo invitati.

TRANSLATION:

Rossi announced that the test concerning the 1MW plant will be held on 28 October: beside that I do not know anything else, except that we are invited.

http://www.focus.it/community/cs/forums/6/466418/ShowThread.aspx

--79.20.142.155 (talk) 19:33, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

So Rossi says he is giving yet another pointless 'demonstration' at the end of the month? See WP:CRYSTALBALL - we base articles on published material, not endless waffle and hype. Please do not spam this talk page with every last morsel from Focus - unless it is directly relevant to article content, we don't need it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:03, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Were the page not blocked, I would change the last line from the present version:

In early October, Rossi stated however that due to contractual difficulties, the container had not been shipped to the U.S. but that the 'launch' would still take place, at an undisclosed location some time that month.

to an adjourned version:

In early October, Rossi stated however that due to contractual difficulties, the container had not been shipped to the U.S. but that the 'launch' would still take place, at an undisclosed location on October 28, 2011.

--79.20.142.155 (talk) 20:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Will you please stop making misleading postings. There is nothing in the link you provide that says anything about 'commercial plans' - all we have is 'Raymond' (who I assume works for Focus) stating that he has been invited to a test on the 28th. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump,

"commercial plan" means that someone has to commerce a product, right?

So, which is the product of Rossi? Single E-Cat module? Naaaaaaay... The product Rossi wants to sell is the 1MW plant.

Hence 28th of October is scheduled to be the date when the product will be shown, while functioning, for the first time.

--79.10.133.137 (talk) 09:32, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

POST SCRIPTUM

I have found a better source that confirms the date.

Today Raymond Zreick of Focus published a complete article with the information concerning the 28th of October:

http://www.focus.it/andrea-rossi-parla-dell-ecat-e-del-test-di-bologna-del-6-ottobre-975_C12.aspx

"Il 28 ottobre è previsto il test della mini-centrale da 1 MW, al quale saremo presenti."

TRANSLATION:

"The test of the 1MW mini-central is scheduled on 28 October, we will be present."

In the article it is also written that the test will be held in Bologna and the client of the 1MW plant will be present to the event.

--79.10.133.137 (talk) 11:45, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for you, but again I tend to go with Andy's view on this one. I personally am happy that Rossi announced the 28th as the next demonstration date, but, while I am convinced that LENR effects are reality, I somehow fear that Rossi will not succeed to convince the entire world (including me) that his claims about his device are valid.

I think we should not add the announcement into the article, even if it is now sourced. When the 28th comes hopefully the identity of the important customer will no longer remain a secret. And if it happens to be a big multinational company, most of the skeptics will go into hiding. So let's just wait for that. --POVbrigand (talk) 12:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Seems like Domenico Fioravanti is a repesentative of this customer: http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3303693.ece/BINARY/Report+Ecat+Oct28+%28pdf%29, and it looks like someone doesn't wants us to know that he is Colonel-Engineer.

That document is a primary source. It is riddled with mistakes. We can draw no conclusion whatsoever from it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:37, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing 'commercial' about Rossi announcing yet another of his demonstrations - and he has claimed from the start that he intends to sell his device. Unless and until it is reported in independent reliable sources that Rossi has a contract to sell his devices, we should not be implying that he has - the 'commercial plans' section title needs to be changed - it is ridiculous to report cancelled contracts as 'plans'. And frankly '79.10.133.137', I am having increasing difficulty accepting your statement that you have no connection with Rossi, given your endless overblown reporting of anything remotely positive regarding the E-Cat. Wikipedia contributors are supposed to at least attempt to look neutral, rather than acting as PR agents. Incidentally, you state that "the US partner" will be present - the article you link says nothing about a partnership, nor where the 'client' is from. Can you tell us where you got this information? AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:26, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry AndyTheGrump, it is my fault: I added a "US" that was not present in the original. AND "cliente" should be translated as "client".

I correct it immediately. Next time I will report also the original in Italian so it can be promptly checked.

Having said that, the substance does not change: the client is the partner, although the nationality of the client is not specified in the source.

ABOUT YOUR OTHER QUESTION: I wrote www.e-cat.com as internet address and it redirected me to Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers. So I assumed that KPCB would be the partner, but of course this is not a reliable source.

--79.10.133.137 (talk) 14:51, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Not only is it not a reliable source - it isn't a source at all. All that tells us is that KPCB have a registered domain as 'www.e-cat.com'. This is no indication of any relationship with Rossi. So, we have no evidence, other that Rossi's own claims, that he is in any sort of 'partnership' with anyone. The section title needs changing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:36, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

It does not say that KPCB have reg that domain name. Anybody can reg any d/n and point it anywhere they want for 10 bucks. Most probably it is Rossi or one of Rossi's fans aiding and abetting him in his internet-fueled hype. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.168.59 (talk) 04:27, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, fully agree. This kind of "information" is maybe suitable for discussion forums like here or here, but for the WP-article it is not suitable. --POVbrigand (talk) 06:24, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Articles in NetworkWorld and Forbes ?

I read these two articles by Mark Gibbs in Networkworld and Forbes and I wondered if they are useable for our article.

The Networkworld article seems to be a "column", I personally think that that could count as a RS, but he author links a few times to WP. Is that a problem ?

The Forbes article is more or less a summary of the Networkworld article. The author's status is mentioned as "contributor". What does that mean for RS ? It appears to be a regular article.

btw, both articles mention the October 28th demonstration announcement. (offtopic: I just found out that the world will come to an end on october 28, 2011. Oh no)

--POVbrigand (talk) 11:40, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

No, of course a source that cites Wikipedia isn't remotely RS. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:49, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Are you being serious here, or is this tongue-in-cheek? --Robert Horning (talk) 14:26, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I am being serious: read Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, and note that "Some news organizations have used Wikipedia articles as a source for their work. Editors should therefore beware of circular sourcing" - this is a classic case of this. Even ignoring the issue of circular sourcing, it is a matter of policy that we don't consider sources that use reader-generated content as reliable, and this includes Wikipedia itself. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:10, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

If Wikipedia (or for that matter any tertiary source material) is used as the primary source of the article or reference, I would have to agree with you. Merely using Wikipedia as one of several references with Wikipedia more as something incidental or to explain some more esoteric terms is something completely different. I think this would have to be something taken on a case by case basis and should not be automatically rejected just because there is a reference to Wikipedia in the body of the source. I'm just saying you don't need to follow this principle religiously but the quality of the information in such a source should be questioned. In this case, however, there is so little new information to be added from these references that it really doesn't matter. Again, that would be something you would expect from something that uses this article on Wikipedia as a primary source of background material in the creation of that content.

The "circular sourcing" of material is also of concern if something stated on the Wikipedia article was created as "original research" and then a 3rd party article citing that information on Wikipedia is then being used in the article then referenced as the "source" of that information. Such a practice should be avoided, and called out when it happens. I have seen that happen on other Wikipedia articles in the past, so it is a valid concern.

Yes, it can get ugly and I do see some of the problems which can happen with emerging technologies where reporters are becoming increasingly dependent upon Wikipedia as their source of information as they depend on the Wikipedia volunteers to provide them with the information as they are pushed into meeting deadlines instead of doing the deeper digging needed for an objective article. I think that also speaks volumes about how reliable Wikipedia has become after a fashion and how successful the Wikipedia project has become. If a technology or concept is valid, more scholarly articles that avoid this circular referencing generally become more common so the need to use these sort of more questionable references can be simply avoided altogether. These specific two articles certainly don't seem to add any useful information, except for the raw speculation (technically "original research"... but not on Wikipedia) that doesn't reference anything else. Saying "In a Forbes article, Michael Gibbs suggested this technology would immediately make the U.S.A. self-sufficient in crude oil production" could be something useful from this article... perhaps. That doesn't reference Wikipedia, but is pure speculation on the part of the article author and would be a possible piece of information from at least that Forbes article that could be added here on Wikipedia. I'm not saying it should be added, and I think such raw speculation from a non-expert in the field is sort of pointless, but it is the kind of information which could be gleaned from an article like this. In other words, it isn't so much that the source references Wikipedia but how that source is being used when added to an article like this one on the Energy Catalyzer. --Robert Horning (talk) 17:33, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

This said, these articles seem to be oriented more toward a general audience just introducing the concept of this device to the general public, rather than something comprehensive which would help expand this article in any significant fashion. The Forbes article is a bit better sourced and has some better information which shows the author has put some more effort into researching his article, but it isn't really something which goes into the technology in any meaningful way. In terms of "notability" requirements to count if this concept (the E-cat device) has achieved notability, these articles certainly show the concept has reached "mainstream media", but they do little else other than that. I don't see much these sources can add to the existing article. --Robert Horning (talk) 14:35, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Edits

I made some edits and all these edits were reverted by AndyTheGrump.

So let's descuss the edits, and see if there is consensus about these edit.

First: quote from Mark Gibbs of Forbes on the section "Evaluation of the device"

On October 17, 2011, Mark Gibbs of Forbes wrote: "the problem with Rossi’s system is that it is too good to be true."

REF http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2011/10/17/hello-cheap-energy-hello-brave-new-world/ ENDofREF

NOTE: fair use of a quote from Forbes.

Second: Bologna, October 2011 demonstration

On October 6, 2011, around 30 to 40 invited guests witnessed a demonstration.

REF http://www.focus.it/fileflash/energia/fusionefredda/ecat/ECAT_Presenze6ott11.pdf ENDofREF

Roland Pettersson, retired Associate Professor from the University of Uppsala, who was present, said: "I'm convinced that this works, but there is still room for more measurements".

REF http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3284823.ece ENDofREF

Among the guests were reporters and scientific journalists, several of which noted that the accuracy of the measurements was fairly low.

REF http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3284962.ece/BINARY/Test+of+E-cat+October+6+%28pdf%29 ENDofREF

A delegation from Confindustria, the Italian employers' federation, was also present.

REF http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-e-fusione-fredda-la-confindustria-incontra-andrea-rossi-864_C12.aspx "E-Cat: la Confindustria incontra Andrea Rossi" TRANSLATION: "E-Cat: Confindustria meets Andrea Rossi" ENDofREF

Third: the lead

The device has been demonstrated to an invited audience several times, and has been commented on positively by Bologna physics professor Giuseppe Levi, and by the Swedish technology magazine Ny Teknik, together with the Italian popular science magazine Focus.

REF http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-fusione-fredda-andrea-rossi-il-test-del-6-ottobre/come-interpretare-i-risultati_PC12.aspx "Tutto ciò dovrebbe portarci alla conclusione che l'idea di Rossi funziona" TRANSLATION: "All this might lead us to conclude that the idea of Rossi works" ENDofREF

Are these edits ok?--79.24.134.75 (talk) 22:55, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

For a start, I'm not sure you understand what "too good to be true" implies: it is a polite way of suggesting that it is quite likely not true - or even entirely bogus. In any case, we discussed the Forbes article above, and the consensus seems to have been that it wasn't any real use - it doesn't tell us anything new, and we don't need to quote from every source that writes on the E-Cat.

Regarding the Bologna demonstration, and the lede, we have discussed these, but we hadn't agreed any changes, contrary to your edit summaries. There seems to be consensus that the demonstrations are already given undue coverage in the article, and we need to significantly trim this, not add yet more. Likewise, we don't need to quote every 'endorsement' of the E-Cat, and nor do we need to describe the entire audience - this isn't an advertisement. Finally, the lede is supposed to summarise the article in a neutral way - and you have removed existing negative content, and added yet more spin - so no, your edit's aren't ok. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:39, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

FIRST: I do understand what "too good to be true" means. And for me it would be a fair line to add to the article.

SECOND: the Bologna demonstration of 6 October 2011 needs to be summarised in a way or another, and that edit is a good way to summarise it IMHO.

THIRD: the lede is supposed to report sources which are worth to report, and among these sources there should not be a self-published blog, named NEW ENERGY TIMES, by Steven Krivit. It is absolutely nonsensical: we have Focus (about 500000 copies sold each month), we have Ny Teknik (about 150000 copies sold each week), you cannot place sorts of sub-species of self-published blogs in the lede!

This does not improve the "neutrality" of the article: instead, it results in a nonsensical way of proceeding without due regard to the specific weight of the sources.--79.24.134.75 (talk) 00:11, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but there is nothing 'neutral' about only citing Ny Teknik for favourable comments - and what exactly does quoting Focus as stating what they 'might conclude' achieve? And no, there is no reason why yet another demonstration 'needs' to be summarised: we learned precisely nothing beyond the fact that nobody has been able to do proper controlled experiments - yet again. And that Rossi has lost his contract with a customer - yet again. It was basically just another publicity stunt, and Wikipedia isn't here to help Rossi convince people - that is up to him, not us. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:02, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Now the lede is not reliable: it states that Ny Teknik made less favourable reports while the time has been passing and this is false. I repeat: it is not a matter of hype whatsover, it is a matter of reporting the FACTS as the press reports them.

And it is nonsensical that the only demonstration, which has had media coverage from a plurality of sources in a very careful way (i.e. the demonstration of 6 October 2011) is not reported in the article now.

And I have no hurry to buy an e-cat tomorrow so I do not care about customers of any sort! (But this might be a fault of mine, who knows...)--79.24.134.75 (talk) 01:16, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Since we clearly aren't going to agree on this, I suggest we wait for others to respond. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:31, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I think the points that 79.24 makes are valid. And I might add that these deletions by User:IRWolfie- were in no way agreed upon, therefore those deleted sections should be put back in. --POVbrigand (talk) 09:53, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I look at what has happened here and it seems like WP:OWN and WP:BITE, as well as WP:AEAE all apply here. The reversion of edits being made here certainly was not in keeping with the concept of assuming good faith in the editor for what were sourced additions to the article generally following Wikipedia practices. I said my piece on the quality of the sources above and I don't intend to repeat myself on that matter. Considering how these sources are being used with these reverted edits, I do not think it was reasonable for the edits to be reverted in the manner that they were. I think bringing in other outside neutral observers for these edits would agree, but Andy is certainly capable of being able to bring the issue up in appropriate forums if he chooses to do so. It is certainly coming dangerously close to the WP:3RR rule, at least in spirit if not in technical fact. --Robert Horning (talk) 11:42, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, "we don't agree, so lets wait for further input" doesn't amount to WP:OWN. Secondly, I think it is safe to assume that the IP is the same one that has been involved in discussions on this talk page for months, so WP:BITE seems less than relevant, and thirdly, I fail to see the relevance of the WP:AEAE essay at all. As for your comments on sourcing, I think your understanding of policy is different than mine - and again, I think such matters are best settle by involving others. There are however other matters of Wikipedia policy and standards that seem significant here - notably WP:BRD (by which my reverts were entirely in accord with norms - I was attempting to start a discussion, as is self-evident), secondly, the edit summaries given were not exactly honest (though I think this may well be due as much to language difficulties as anything else), and lastly and most importantly, WP:FRINGE predicates that we must be sceptical about the E-Cat, and must not make statements in Wikipedia's own 'voice' that suggests that it works - which is currently implicit in much of the article. I have repeatedly asked for input from outsiders (on multiple noticeboards) because of this concern, but have had relatively little assistance. Yes, to some extent there is an ownership issue with this article - it has largely been written by contributors with a 'pro-E-Cat' perspective, and with little concerns for broader Wikipedia interests. I will repeat what I wrote earlier, that Wikipedia isn't here to help Rossi convince people - that is up to him, not us. We are not obliged to report every publicity stunt he pulls, every report on the E-Cat in every media source, or every 'endorsement' he claims to have received. This is an encyclopaedia, not a speculative blog, and the E-Cat, if it deserves mention at all, will deserve such mention as (a) a successful commercial project, and (b) a scientific advance. So far there is precisely no evidence that either is true - though a great deal of hype about how it will be. It seems to me that the most relevant Wikipedia policy to this article is Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, and in particular WP:NOTPROMOTION and WP:NOTCRYSTALBALL. Frankly, I think that the E-Cat article should have been deleted at the start, with any article creation being delayed until the device itself (as opposed to the hype around it) became 'notable' in the sense that it was proven to (a) exist, (b) work, and (c) be of scientific and/or commercial significance. On that basis, I'm going to wait a few more weeks (so we can see what happens at the next 'demonstration'), and then, unless the situation has significantly changed, propose that the article be deleted, as not meeting Wikipedia requirements regarding notability, and as incapable of meeting other wikipedia requirements regarding objective and neutral reporting. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:06, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Attempting to be a little more diplomatic here, I think it is by far and away better to talk thing out than to be so quick with hitting the "undo" button or "revert" button (depending on what options are available to you as an editor). Yes, I disagree with Andy in terms of how he seems to be treating other editors, where I tend to assume good faith and act under the presumption that anything added to an article which isn't blatant vandalism tends to be for the improvement of the article and should generally be included, if perhaps reworked a bit for grammar. I understand the issues of trying to maintain a neutral point of view, and with the kinds of sources which are currently available for this article they will tend to be very favorable to the topic until many others have been able to look at it.

In terms of submitting this article for deletion, I would ask Andy to do that today if he really wants to get it out of his system, or simply shut up about it. For myself and what I've seen, there clearly are several sources which indicate the notability of this particular topic so far as meriting a Wikipedia article, and if Andy wants to raise the issue so other editors can investigate the claim of notability, let them try. Waiting a few more weeks in terms of seeing if the upcoming "test" is a dud and Rossi is "proven" to be a fraud might be useful, but I think the notability might even be enhanced as I'm pretty sure there will be several news stories written about that issue as well. Like it or not, this topic has fixed itself into world culture and it being reported on by others, where I believe notability is firmly established. Rossi may be a crank or scam artist, or he could be one of the greatest inventors of all time to be ranked with the Wright Brothers and Thomas Edison. I don't know what to make of all this right now, but either way he certainly is going to be notable for something even if it is for scamming a million dollars or more out of some "alternative energy" investors. There may be specific points within the article that are speculative and don't deserve to be put into the article because the sources aren't reliable nor can the information be verified as accurate. Then again, that is what these talk pages are all about.

If you want to go off quoting Wikipedia policies, I've been around the block on those discussions and don't go calling me a Johnny come lately here. I've been working on this project since it was Nupedia and Larry Sanger was supposedly running the show, and I've seen all kinds of crap happen. Lay off the high horse of trying to protect Wikipedia and let some people who know a thing or two about this topic the chance to contribute without you trying to make a mess of things here. Have faith that people will act reasonable if you give them a chance, and I do see some article ownership happening that is very much against the basic pillars of what makes Wikipedia work. Constant reverting of somebody's contributions to the point that editor can't making a meaningful edit is contrary to the spirit of Wikipedia and that simply must stop. If they are blatant vandals, you can revert that stuff, but what I am seeing here is not vandalism. Please give it a rest!

BTW, if you think I am a sock puppet here, I am not. Indeed, I haven't even contributed to the main body of this article, and with very few exceptions (mainly forgetting to log in or something silly) I have never contributed to Wikipedia or any other Wikimedia project (or Wikia project for that matter) except under the account I am using right now. I don't know how much of an outsider you can get other than myself coming in right now, as somebody very well versed in Wikipedia policies and knowing you, Andy, are using those policies to further a point of view.

BTW, I think you would be surprised about what I think of E-cat in all of this, and what I'm complaining about is not the topic itself but how this edit war has been going on. If you want a flame war, I'm ready to start a flame war royale, but I refuse to get pulled into your petty games with an edit war and I will stand here to defend other editors to contribute to Wikipedia when you seem hell bent to kick them off this project! There are enough people who have left Wikipedia that it is becoming a major problem, and this kind of hostile attitude towards would-be new contributors is precisely the problem that Wikipedia has been facing for some time now. I'm standing up in this case and saying enough is enough and drawing the line here. --Robert Horning (talk) 20:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

"this topic has fixed itself into world culture": Really? You have a source for that? If you do, it will do a great deal to settle the issue of notability: but I've certainly seen no such source. As for the rest of your comments, I note that after you've cited WP:BITE and WP:AEAE, you then go on to claim that since you've been contributing to Wikipedia since the year dot, you are somehow entitled to make pronouncements on policy. You aren't. If you think my behaviour in regard to this article has been inappropriate, then raise the matter at the relevant noticeboard - but otherwise, I suggest you stick to trying to improve the article. And no, I'm not going to "simply shut up about" Wikipedia policy on your say-so. Finally, your last paragraph, about "drawing the line here" looks to me to be a declaration that you aren't involved in this particular discussion with the intent of improving the article, but instead involving yourself in some sort of pointy campaign - If this is indeed the case, I will have little choice but to report you on the appropriate noticeboard. (BTW, look up 'diplomacy' in a dictionary sometime - it doesn't include suggesting that I'd accused you of sockpuppetry, just so you could state that you aren't one. I never thought for one minute that you were, and that sort of 'diplomatic' implication is about as far from WP:AGF as you can get). AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:43, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok. If and when the page is proposed for deletion then all these problems will be discussed.

The position of AndyTheGrump seems to be clear: the page is unredeemable and so it has to be rejected as whole. Adamantly clear position. Good.

Now I suggest to all the editors, who are interested in improving the page, to remain focused on the content of the page and on how this content should be managed and eventually integrated with further information. For example: should the demonstration of 6 October 2011 be reported on the article? I think it should.

--79.17.129.222 (talk) 20:50, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Deleting the "demonstration" section would be an improvement. Currently it is just repeating Rossi's unsupported claims and gives the impression actual testing is going on. ArtifexMayhem (talk) 11:45, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Those claims are supported by professors of physics (see here for example: http://www.focus.it/scienza/e-cat-test-6102011-la-relazione-di-christos-stremmenos_C12.aspx NOTE: it is in Italian), hence they are not unsupported.

I specify that, although university professors are supportive, there is no scientific evidence up to now that can confirm that the Energy Catalyzer works. But these are two different aspects: supported by professors of physics aye, up to now scientific evindence nay.

--79.16.165.34 (talk) 12:02, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

The claims are not supported by professors of physics (or at least, not in any meaningful way - the device has never been independently tested, never mind subjected to the sort of scientific analysis necessary for it to be supported - then professors are willing to make vague assertions about the device, without evidence, proves nothing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:11, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I put more disclaimer in at the top. I think that is justified to compensate for the long demonstration section that could give an impression of validation to the casual WP-reader.

I put in a repetition "not independently verified", we should reword one of those repetitions. --POVbrigand (talk) 12:40, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Andy doesn't think so ... --POVbrigand (talk) 12:58, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't think the repetition was necessary - and we don't need to explicitly state that there has been no scientific testing if the article doesn't give that misleading impression in the first place. Given the meaninglessness of the results, I can see no reason why a section on the 'demonstrations' (if we need one at all) should report them in the first place. Incidentally, I note that Ny Teknik seems to be backtracking once again [16]. Given their new scepticism - asking for "more accurate measurement methods, preferably conducted by independent persons at a neutral site", we may have to look again at some of the earlier Ny Teknik citations, as they no longer seem to be accepting the validity of the earlier 'results'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:11, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

"Both independent analysts and Ny Teknik’s readers ask instead for a new test of a module, but with much more accurate measurement methods, preferably conducted by independent persons at a neutral site": so independent analysts and Ny Teknik's readers but, strikingly,

not Ny Teknik.

Hence, there is no backtracking.

--79.16.165.34 (talk) 13:28, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

That is your understanding of what Ny Teknik writes - it isn't mine. I see nothing 'striking' about the wording at all (it needs to be borne in mind that many Ny Teknik staff were sceptical from the beginning, and hence will have no need to backtrack at all). Whatever - Ny Teknik have also said that the tests of the new 1 Mw plant are unlikely to be any more conclusive, so Rossi seems to have lost an opportunity there, and only his 'mystery customer' will be concerned with the results. No doubt when the customer fails to pay up (which looks a racing certainty to me) Rossi will have another excuse... AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:53, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I do not see how your comments here are aimed at improving the article. --POVbrigand (talk) 13:58, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Discussing a source appears to be aimed at improving the article to me. IRWolfie- (talk) 21:55, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

proposal by George Miley

I have reverted this edit about a proposal of George Miley, already for reason of inappropriate wording. A main basis for that (reverted) edit is a presentation which refers to Rossi and which is published in [17]; however at least a reliable source for the presentation should found, then it could be discussed further whether the mention of the proposal of George Miley is valid input for this article. I wanted to mention it here nonetheless, as I did the revert. --Chris Howard (talk) 10:42, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

From the wording, I suspect that Arian558 intended to post on this talk page, rather than the article itself. Perhaps he/she can clarify? In any case, none of this belongs in the article unless an independent WP:RS states that it is of any relevance to the E-Cat. The whole thing looks like an attempt to enhance credibility by mutual association, and to give an impression of 'scientific validity' which is totally unmerited in an article about a device which has never been described, never mind subject to experimental analysis, in a recognised peer-reviewed scientific journal. Time and again, there have been efforts to include material in this article not for any information about the E-Cat (we actually have next-to-none), but as 'endorsements' - this is totally unencyclopaedic. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:01, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Miley apparently used this presentation for his speech on the World Green Energy Symposium where cold fusion was scheduled in Class D Thursday afternoon October 20th. Miley is a top notch scientist (Fellow-APS, Fellow-ANS, Fellow-IEEE, Fellow-NASA), he is an established expert on the topic. But because he is supportive of cold fusion claims, many fringe fighting WP-editors being presumptuous self-confident of possessing supreme knowledge will discredit this guy and dismiss what he is saying. Having said that, I think this presentation is (for now) not RS and if it were we could probably only use it in the "proposed theory" section that was recently deleted. What is does show is that cold fusion is slowly gaining a foothold in the mainstream science. --POVbrigand (talk) 15:16, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I do not see how this links to your final conclusion. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:33, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have added that if fully agree with Chris Howard's deletion. --POVbrigand (talk) 15:38, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Glad we can agree. Incidentally, 'fringe fighting' is Wikipedia policy, precisely because we don't have 'supreme knowledge', and have to rely on external reliable sources to sort the wheat from the chaff - and when it comes to science, the mainstream is where we look. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:02, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

No fringe _fighting_ is not WP-policy. Furthermore, the way of conduct of some WP-editors in cutting down any attempt to write something reasonable on the subject is certainly not within the scope of WP policy and contrary to the spirit of Wikipedia. --POVbrigand (talk) 16:13, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

If you think an editor is doing something 'contrary to the spirit of Wikipedia', there are plenty of Wikipedia noticeboards etc available to raise the matter on. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:20, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

If you are concerned about the fringe article you can look for more opinions on the fringe theories noticeboard. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:28, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Quotes from Hagelstein

I found some quotes from Peter L. Hagelstein from last April in this article:

"They've been keeping the technical details under wraps because they aren't patent protected, so it's hard to tell what they're doing from the photos and written descriptions. There is essentially no information that's useful to ascertain whether they've done it."

"There are a lot of other researchers who've been exploring technologies that are related and they've reported similar results," Hagelstein said. "[Rossi and Focardi] reported an immediate power gain of a factor of 10 and a long-term one of 20. There are other researchers who have reported the same power gain, so it's not out of line with the cutting-edge state of the art in the field."

For those who don't know, Hagelstein is the principal investigator of the "Energy Production and Conversion Group" of Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Research Laboratory of Electronics.

I would like to use these quotations if there are no objections. --POVbrigand (talk) 10:59, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

You want to use 'lifeslittlemysteries.com' as a source? Note the previous sentence: "Without seeing the guts of Rossi's and Focardi's machine, [Hagelstein] has no idea if it actually works". Whatever, the article is months old, and only tells us that someone who doesn't know how (or if) the E-Cat works thinks it might. Basically, another 'endorsement' from a believer. So yes, I object on the basis that it is old, poorly sourced, and contains no useful information. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Please explain why you outright dismiss lifeslittlemysteries.com as source. The media outlet is part of TechMediaNetwork and it has an editorial team and staff writers, fully within WP-policy. --POVbrigand (talk) 13:25, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't dismiss it outright - I just queried whether it was a particularly appropriate source. In any case, you've not responded to my other comments. Why should we quote Hagelstein as saying he doesn't know whether the E-Cat works? AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:46, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Glad we can agree that this article is RS. Now let's see what other editors think about the quotations. --POVbrigand (talk) 16:06, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Times ago the section concerning the "Evaluation of the device" was requested to be expanded: provided that there is not copyright infringement, these quotes seem to be acceptable as expansion of that section IMHO.

--79.10.132.29 (talk) 20:25, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Hagelstein has not evaluated the device. He makes clear he doesn't have the information to do so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:01, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Secondary sources never will have evaluated the device themselves, for by doing so they would be primary sources. --POVbrigand (talk) 22:41, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

True, but irrelevant - Hagelstein has said nothing of any significance on the E-Cat beyond that (a) he doesn't know if it works, and (b) he thinks that it might. He is no sort of 'source' at all for anything relevant to the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:48, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Where in this quote do you read that he thinks that it might work ? :"There are a lot of other researchers who've been exploring technologies that are related and they've reported similar results," Hagelstein said. "[Rossi and Focardi] reported an immediate power gain of a factor of 10 and a long-term one of 20. There are other researchers who have reported the same power gain, so it's not out of line with the cutting-edge state of the art in the field."

Your argument on relevance and significance is .. irrelevant. To me this sounds like WP:I_just_don't_like_it. --POVbrigand (talk) 07:23, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

"it's not out of line with the cutting-edge state of the art" sounds to me like 'it might work', coming from a cold-fusion believer, but whatever. What is it I'm supposed to 'like'? What content are you actually proposing to add to the article? AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:42, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I tried to explain that when I wrote :"I would like to use these quotations if there are no objections.". Maybe you didn't understand so I'll rephrase. "I would like to add these quotations if there are no objections." --POVbrigand (talk) 16:01, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

What is the point in quoting Hagelstein for "essentially no information" on the E-Cat? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:06, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

He is an expert in the field, that is why it is good to add his quotes. See also the points 79.10 makes. --POVbrigand (talk) 17:51, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Whether he is 'an expert in the field' is clearly dependent on 'the field' (cold fusion/LENR) actually being found scientifically credible, which is at the moment rather questionable. But no, I can see no point in adding quotes from someone who states that he knows nothing about the article subject - the E-Cat. This looks like another attempt to bring 'credibility by association', rather than to include anything that actually informs the reader about the device. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:57, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Your arguments boil down to WP:I_just_don't_like_it. It is clear that you will object to any addition to this article. The only goal you have here is to obstruct, hinder and filibuster and you would like to see this whole article deleted. Completely against the spirit of wikipedia. --POVbrigand (talk) 18:13, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Rather, it appears that yours come down to wp:IDHT. You asked "if there are no objections". Andy objected, and further has repeatedly said why, yet you persist. Is it perhaps that you really intended "whether or not there are objections"? Haggelstein is willing to be considered as a CF researcher, per his own website. Other such might agree, though that would need sourcing. Rossi isn't calling the eCat a CF device. Unless you have an excellently RS that supports asserting the eCat is a CF device, there's no reason to assume it is, particularly in the face of the overwhelming predominance of informed opinion that CF (in the sense discussed by P&F) doesn't really exist. LeadSongDog come howl! 19:48, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

outdent - It appears to me that you don't know what WP:IDHT is all about. As far as I understand IDHT is for editors that refuse to accept the consensus long after it has been reached by the community. Your use here to discredit me is laughable.

Hagelstein is one of the CF researchers that was asked to prepare the DOE 2004 presentation. I think we don't need any "website" to safely assume that he is indeed an expert on the subject regardless of what the standing of this subject in mainstream science has.

The rest of your comment puzzles me even more.

There is no predominance of informed opinion that CF doens't really exist. There is a predominance of ignorant opinion that CF was debunked in the early 1990s and that nothing has happened since then.

But let's remind ourselves that Wikipedia is not about truth  :"Truth is not the criterion for inclusion of any idea or statement in a Wikipedia article, even if it is on a scientific topic (see Wikipedia:Science). The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."

Now if I understand you correctly you say: Hagelstein may or may not be an expert on CF and the Rossi device is not a CF device. And with that you try to convince us that Hagelstein's quotes on the Rossi device are meaningless. Sorry, but if your comment truly reflects your knowledge about this subject then I suggest you read a few sources first. I don't say that you should believe CF claims afterward, but at least our discussion would be more efficient. --POVbrigand (talk) 22:08, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

There is no "knowledge about this subject". It is pseudoscience until we have actual real science published via WP:RS. Your POV pushing will have a limit. No data, no sources, no science == Not published in Wikipedia. ArtifexMayhem (talk) 03:44, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I was unclear. with "knowledge about this subject" I meant CF/LENR in general and how Ni-H excess heat systems fall into that category, regardless of how one calls it. And that Hagelstein is an expert in that field.

I agree with you that there are no scientific grade RS about Rossi's device. But several non scientific grade RS (ie. news stories) report about Rossi's device so we can write this WP-article. Your view "No data, no sources, no science == Not published in Wikipedia. " is not in line with wikipedia, please do not advocate misinformation.

I think you possibly meant it differently than I understood, I agree with you that this article should not pretend to be a science article and should in no way present the ecat as scientifically proven. --POVbrigand (talk) 07:40, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

The first quote from Hagelstein very much expresses the skeptical view: "There is essentially no information that's useful to ascertain whether they've done it." Isn't that what we are all saying ?

If you are really concerned about the bias of this article, then this quotation will actually help you with keeping the pole straight. I can't see why that first quote should not be added to the article.

My proposal: I will add the first quote, but not use the second quote, just to keep the peace. You see, I am a reasonable editor. All agree win-win ? --POVbrigand (talk) 07:22, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Why bother? Granted, it's almost harmless, but it is neither very informative nor accurate. Hagelstein could have qualified his statement, e.g. "...no information I've seen that's useful..." to be accurate, though that would still be uninformative. He might just as well have said "There is essentially no information that's useful to ascertain whether Godzilla is presently frozen in an Antarctic glacier." It is a non-statement. LeadSongDog come howl! 13:26, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, but that would be an interesting quote the use in an article about Godzilla or melting glaciers if coming from a Godzilla expert :-) I think the quote tells us about the quality of the experiments and I do not think it is non-statement. But for now I'll just let it be, it's not that important. --POVbrigand (talk) 14:13, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit to Undisclosed Customer

I felt the last sentence was incomplete to the point of being misleading. It originally read "The demonstration would be performed under the control of this unidentified customer who could acquire the plant, provided that the power consumption can be verified by the customer."

The referenced article mentions the ratio of heat output to heat input. Since it is the ratio of the two that matters I corrected the sentence to read: "The demonstration would be performed under the control of this unidentified customer who could acquire the plant, provided that the power consumption to heat output ratio can be verified by the customer."

It is unfortunate that the original quote itself is a bit misleading as they mention power and heat as if they are equivalent but are not as power is energy/(unit of time) and heat is a measure of energy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zedshort (talk • contribs) 17:43, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I prefer your correction over the original quote. --POVbrigand (talk) 17:51, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, good point. Thanks for the correction. Sadly, there has been a notable amount of confusion over issues like this - I suspect partly because of language difficulties, and partly due to less-than-qualified journalists etc trying to explain unfamiliar concepts. AndyTheGrump AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:58, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately I have noticed even scientists using their native language in a very slipshod manner.Zedshort (talk) 16:23, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Apparently the customer accepted the test of friday oct 28th. Any references? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.234.214.108 (talk) 22:37, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

What makes you think that? In any case, until it is reported by an independent reliable source, it can't go into the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:40, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

(It wasn't me, ie Francesco, ie the usual contributor with an IP starting with 79XXXXXXX)--79.10.161.200 (talk) 22:53, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

dead link tag & sources in Italian

Re this edit, it looks like I'm the one who placed the dead link tag for this link, in this edit. The edit fixed/clarified several cites, and I'm guessing that I misunderstood the Italian language web page to which that link navigates. That web page presents, I see after a closer look, the result of a search for "Mr. Kilowatt" on the linked website. That search result is a page of Italian text containing a link to this other page which appears to be a short article in Italian about a radio interview relating to fraudsters in the power industries in Italy. It contains a link to the audio of the interview here. This was apparently my mistake, but this could have been clearer. I don't understand Italian and can't be of much help in clarifying it, but see WP:NONENG. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:51, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I explain the mistery. The link was needed only to testify that Maurizio Melis is a scientific journalist. So, this page is the page of his popular science programme named "Mr Kilowatt" (Mr Kilowatt is Maurizio Melis himself):

http://www.radio24.ilsole24ore.com/main.php?dirprog=Mr%20Kilowatt

On the left there is a brief CV of Maurizio Melis:

Maurizio Melis è giornalista scientifico, (english translation: Maurizio Melis is scientific journalist) scrive per riviste come Newton ed Equilibri. Dal 2007 è tra le voci della trasmissione di scienza Moebius in onda su Radio24. Sulla stessa emittente, dal 2009 conduce Mr Kilowatt, una pillola di informazione quotidiana dedicata a efficienza energetica e fonti alternative. E' musicista e autore di teatro scientifico.

--79.10.161.200 (talk) 03:08, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

About 28 October 2011

First article, from Ny Teknik:

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3303682.ece

--79.10.161.200 (talk) 00:14, 29 October 2011 (UTC) (Ok, now it's me)

B/S! This was the first piece of information. Don't Play pretend to be so uber important... http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/10/e-day-thread-rossis-1-mw-e-cat-plant-tested-by-first-customer/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.234.214.108 (talk) 00:31, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Please do not add sources from non-reliable sources. It seems that within one or two days Peter Svensson (who was present at the event) from the Associated Press will publish something, hence it would be better to wait and see what further reliable sources are going to write.--79.10.161.200 (talk) 00:52, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Look I have written the skeleton of the article and the format we could follow to properly record this IF REAL. So I encourage people to add to it with references capturing the chronological order of events written in past tense. If it ends up being a hoax we will capture that too. Only put FACTS people. If its speculation then state it but make sure it's group speculation not just yours. Howver don't fill the article with speculation as that is not what wikipedia is all about. Some historically significant speculation is okay. Speculation about minute details is not.Ldussan (talk) 18:20, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not altogether happy with a simple statement that an'undisclosed customer' was at the inauguration - it seems to me that Ny Teknik only has Rossi's word that the customer is genuine. The Ny Teknic article seems a little non-committal too: they write"according to the customer’s controller...", "assuming that the report is correct..." etc. What do others think? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:07, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

As long as it is verifiable with RS it can be included. Wikipedia is not about truth or what single editors believe to be the truth. Wikipedia is about verifiability in RS. I encourage you to present RS that express what you want to say. --POVbrigand (talk) 08:19, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

The problem here is that all "reliable sources" don't mention the name of the customer, and those who were reporting on the tests either signed NDAs or voluntarily have withheld the name of the customer from their reports. If you think that this customer was a fraud, I'd have to agree you need to find a reliable source to state that conclusion as well. I have my doubts, but I do accept the logic behind why this customer supposedly doesn't want to disclose their name at the moment. The Associated Press article should be interesting if/when it comes out (it still could become a spiked story), but for non-technical information about this device it would seem to be about as reliable as it can get. I certainly wouldn't trust an AP reporter to give accurate descriptions of how this device actually works. --Robert Horning (talk) 12:41, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

From the source I would presume that the customer is a business so saying the customer was present wouldn't make sense; it seems ok to mention that the controller for the customer was present. Also it seems relevant to mention that none of the guests were able to check any measurements. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:52, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Another issue is still that nyteknik is a primary source, we should be relying on secondary sources. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:53, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

When an accredited journalist (regardless if nyteknik, focus.it or AP) is present at an event and reports about it, is this primary or secondary ? We should be preferring secondary source, which doesn't mean primary sources are up for deletion. --POVbrigand (talk) 13:08, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

It is primary, see WP:PRIMARY about using primary sources. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:16, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

We had plenty of secondary sources in the article until you deleted them [18] --POVbrigand (talk) 13:59, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

What's up with the deletion. Everything in there was verifiable and unbiased. People will be coming here to find up to date data and we can also correctly capture things in chronological order by writing in past tense. You need to get off your high horse and let wikipedia users write something for goodness sake. We had a good thing going.Ldussan (talk) 19:02, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Eh? How does is this relevant? We are discussing about secondary sources on this undisclosed customer having the machine demonstrated. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Don't delete relevant information Grumpy. If you want to have it properly cited then just do cite it, there are plenty of relevant articles out there. It is up to the community over time to cite the articles. Somebody has to provide the framework and structure of each section.

Article from Wired about the event of yesterday:

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-10/29/rossi-success

--79.10.161.200 (talk) 13:45, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. Wired evidently has its doubts too:

"But this does not mean we can crack open the champagne and celebrate the end of fossil fuels quite yet. Skeptics have plenty of grounds to doubt whether the new test really takes us any further forwards".

"For a start, the US customer remains anonymous. In other words, a group of unknown, unverifiable people carried out tests which cannot be checked".

AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:06, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I think the only ones who haven't got reason for doubts are Andrea Rossi himself and the mistery customer. --POVbrigand (talk) 15:14, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Hey please don't put any speculation. If you must put something then please write it in past tense. The hope is that the article for the Oct 28th test can be written as if being read in a history book. I will edit the last person who put the speculative posts. It's not bad mind you it's just that the article is written in two different tenses.Ldussan (talk) 17:53, 29 October 2011 (UTC)