Talk:Dream of the Red Chamber

Character section

I hope that a few things should be observed when doing the write-up on the characters.

• Do not write too long a section on each person. Detailed write-up can be split over to their own 'name article' page.

• Do not give spoiler warnings away.

• As far as possible, ignore (and refrain from writing about) the Gao E's 120 chapter version's ending. Those endings do not conform to the original writers' intent. 165.21.154.70 (talk) 09:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like a great idea. We should move some of the details to the characters' individual pages. I will probably put some time into this in the near future. --Catch153 (talk) 07:58, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

120-chapter version controversy

Someone left a comment in the text "Please also refrain from writing about the 120-chapter ending (which was not the original writer's intent.)" In a brief survey of the Net I could not find any authoritative documentation of Cao's intent here. Can we see some references here? --Slashem (talk) 15:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Since there has been no reply, I have removed the comment. Please discuss here before reinstating it. --Slashem (talk) 18:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

These are the links: http://www.chinaculture.org/gb/en_aboutchina/2003-09/24/content_23134.htm and http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-311611/Gao-E. 124.155.206.12 (talk) 03:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The basic story, not controversy, is that Cao Xueqin, the original author, wrote only the first 80 chapters. He wrote an ending to the book, but it was lent to a friend and "lost," and he died before finishing a new version. Someone else who knew him and the novel well, with the pseudonym of Gao E (writer), finished it, but not necessarily the way Cao Xueqin planned the plot. There is some speculation that this is because the original ending was catastrophic, like the real family's fate the story was based upon. This could have displeased the emperor or other important people, so the second author might have changed the story to make it more acceptable.

It is generally conceded that the Gao E part of the story is not as well written as the first 80 chapters. But Gao E was apparently completely familiar with the original plot and changed only some of it, so the novel is usually published with all 120 chapters. Evangeline (talk) 15:50, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Bonsall's translation

I'd like to suggest amending the description of Bonsall's translation as follows in order to give a more complete picture:

The typescript of another complete translation, by Dr Bramwell Seaton Bonsall, a Wesleyan Methodist missionary to China from 1911 to 1926, has been made available through the University of Hong Kong Libraries. The translation was completed in the 1950s and is accessible in pdf[2] from the library Web site. This version was accepted for publication by The Asia Society of New York but has not been officially published.

Jklai (talk) 03:39, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality

After my editing, i've got two reverts. One for too many spelling mistakes and one for neutrality. I didn't realize where did i broke the neutrality. So please help me to improve the article, Thanks a lot! 百家姓之四 討論 (Discussion) 04:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

You need to write better English and also give references for your facts. As of now, the edits read very POV. Sooner or later someone will revert to the older version. 124.155.207.10 (talk) 03:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Copyediting

Some non-native English writers are writing something like Anglo-Chinese pidgin in this article. It must be rectified or the article will be unintelligible. 116.14.114.58 (talk) 09:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Please do not discourage non-native English writers. It is far easier to correct a Chinese expert's English than to find a native English speaker with expertise on this subject who also writes for Wikipedia. Evangeline (talk) 07:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Details about the characters' names

I am reading Dream of the Red Chamber. I thought it would be helpful to add details about the characters' names. Someone listed the traditional Chinese names, and I included the simplified Chinese, pinyin, Wade-Giles, and translation. I realize one of the previous anonymous editors removed translations of names. It will be helpful for readers to see the translations because the book sometimes makes puns and other references to the meaning of the names. Please do not remove them. I added notes about Wade-Giles, etc. because some online resources such as Cliffnotes do not use the Pinyin names, so it will help readers' research.

If it may be helpful to readers and their understanding of the novel, do not remove it. Thank you. --Catch153 (talk) 07:56, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

袭人's name

Assails Men?! Oh man, Who would call a girl this way? Why not translate the "supposed" meaning 花气袭人知骤暖? OK I know it is hard to explain that in English, but it worths a try. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Purpureleaf (talk • contribs) 15:22, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I bursted out laughing XD. though, it is correct, literally. Hermesw (talk) 03:57, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

It explains her name in the book (where everyone also thinks it's a crazy name to give a girl). She's a bondmaid and her new owner is the whimsical hero Bao-yü, who loves poetry. He names her after Lu You's (陆游) poem in which it is said that a flower's fragrance is so strong it "assails men." Evangeline (talk) 21:05, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

It was Baoyu's father who thought the name is crazy, not everyone.袭 doesn't mean assailing in 花气袭人知骤暖(Lu You's original poem). Surrounding or pleasing would be more suitable. 袭 is still used this way in modern Chinese.

"Garment person" is definitely wrong though. Surrounding or pleasing as the last comment suggested could be fine, but seems to lack the strong feeling. How about something like "overwhelming"? Nautilusfossil (talk) 21:03, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Simplified Chinese version?

Does anyone know if this work (meaning at least the first 80 chapters) has been published in a simplified Chinese version? I was only able to locate a traditional character version. K. the Surveyor (talk) 21:37, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

There are numerous versions published in simplified Chinese.--刻意(Kèyì) 08:03, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

FYI: Title & Translation: Red Mansions or Chamber

I wasn't sure what translated title was most standard. I ran some Google searches for each version on Google Web search and Google Book Search:

• "dream of the red chamber" 127,000 results on the Web / About 38,000-44,100 results in books
• "dream of red chambers" 31,600 results on the Web / About 251 results results in books
• "dream of the red mansion" 51,500 results on the Web / About 263 results in books
• "dream of red mansions" 4,690,000 results on the Web / About 10,400 results in books

Not the book results vary, even when searches are seconds apart. The Web results are skewed because of the TV series based on the novel. So, it seems that it is best to leave it as "Chamber" because this is how it is most commonly referred to in literature.--Catch153 (talk) 13:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Removed outdated translations

I removed links to translations which might imply Wikipedia approval. The Introduction to the first says: the Rev. Bramwell Seaton Bonsall, M.A., B.D., D.Lit. (Lond,) was a Wesleyan Methodist missionary to China from 1911 to 1926. After his return to England he continued his interest in China and the study of its language and literature. In the late 1920s he obtained his Doctorate, that involved a complete translation of the Zhan Guo Ce (Chan Kuo Ts’e), the Records of the Warring States. In his retirement in the 1950s he completed a translation of all 120 chapters of the Chinese novel, the Hung Lou Meng, often known as the Dream of the Red Chamber. This was later accepted for publication by The Asia Society of New York, but the project was abandoned when Penguin announced its proposed translation by Professor David Hawkes, with John Minford. These two translations by my father, made without having access to libraries or discussions with other scholars, were probably the first to be made into English of these two complete works." ch (talk) 05:35, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

The question of authorship

Friends --

I apologize for not making more clear Haun Saussy's significant and interesting point in the phrase which has been cut twice. His article "The Age of Attribution: Or, How the "Honglou Meng" Finally Acquired an Author," Chinese Literature: Essays, Articles, Reviews (CLEAR) (2003): 119-132. [1] does not simply make the point that Hu Shi established Cao’s authorship, but that the concept of “authorship” had not been important to earlier readers. It would have been relatively easy for nineteenth century readers to find Cao if that had been an important question to them, but in fact, argues Saussy, it was not. This is surprising to us today, so it seemed important to give a reliable source and to put its point carefully. Here is Saussyu’s own language

The Honglou meng (or Shitou ji) began its career in print as an authorless, somewhat mysterious piece of fiction open to multiple lines of interpretation. The identification of Cao Xueqin (ca. 1715-ca. 1763) as its main author was the great turning point in the history of its reading and holds lessons for the theory of authorship in general. For most people, that identification came in 1922 with Hu Shi's essay "A Text-Critical Study of the Honglou meng." Once an author had been added to the book, reading proceeded differently, as if Hu Shi, Gu Jiegang and others of that ilk had made all previous theorizing obsolete. But of course Hu Shi did not create the author out of nothing. The name Cao Xueqin occurs in the book's first chapter among those who have "compiled ... added to and trimmed" the novel's many versions. From then on, for most readers of the book, all sorts of interpretative and textual questions require, to be answered, a grounding in the personality and motives of Cao Xueqin himself, a definite historical individual with a life outside the novel. I would like us to consider the possibility that this is by no means a necessary development. For the first hundred and thirty years of its circulation in print, the novel was read in various fashions, for some of which an author was a far less vivid or controlling presence.

If nobody objects or comes up with a better wording, in a few days I will put a somewhat clearer version of this back into the sentence on Hu Shi. This is important in explaining how Chinese readers understood the novel and how our present day readings are different from earlier ones. Not that this should take up great space, however! Half a sentence is not excessive. ch (talk) 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Hawkes/Minford names for maids, and name translations in general

I am thinking about adding the names used by Hawkes and Minford for the maids, so as to make the character descriptions more accessible for readers of their translation (which is probably the vast majority of English-language readers). So in the "additional names" parenthesis after Xi-Ren, there would be something like "Hawkes/Minford translation: Aroma". What do people think about this? -- Danny Yee (talk) 19:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Very helpful. ch (talk) 04:57, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Danny, thank you very much for adding those translations. I had added literal translations of the names a while back, but someone deleted them. I don't understand why someone did that. They are helpful in understanding some of the deeper meaning of the novel. The notably includes the songs and poems about the Twelve Beauties in Chapter 5.
Please do not delete someone's hard work unless there's a really good reason for doing so. The fact that Danny Yee added the Hawkes translations proves that someone found it worthwhile to see the names' translations.--Catch153 (talk) 02:57, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Name Translatons: Should they stay or go?

Sevilledade has unilateral decided to remove the translated meanings of the names more than once. He said in the change notes "These are pretty laughable, literal translations of people's names. These are names, not suppose to have terrible literal translation of words." The names should remain that the meaning of the characters' names is significant, especially for English-speakers trying to interpret the actual Dream in Chapter 5. The names are not meant to "sound good," but they are important for research and interpretation of the novel.--Catch153 (talk) 17 November 2011 (UTC)