User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Copeeright infrinjmant in India topiccs

Wikid77 here again, this time on spelling variants. The issue of alternate spellings for words is related to the earlier talk-page thread "#What's next" but perhaps others would consider it an off-topic tangent. Text is difficult to trace to sources when names are often spelled differently. In articles written about India or Pakistan or Tamil language (etc.), there are often several spellings (or dual words) used to name the same item. Some common examples are the city names: "Calcutta" as "Kolkata" or "Bombay" as the long-term Gujurati name "Mumbai". Then, some people might spell "Kolkata" as "Kolkattah". For lesser-known towns, there are often 3 or 5 spellings. When searching for source documents, to check for excessive copying of text, the changes in spelling or wording are a real barrier for Wikipedians to handle. Of course, it would be great to pre-vet all text added to articles, given unlimited time in an "ideal" world of 24-hour volunteers. However, when an entire subcontinent does not spell words the same, or "correctly" where that concept has any meaning, then Wikipedia benefits by having many hundreds of readers proofreading various articles, and perhaps an anonymous reader will post an IP-address note that some text seems to have come from a rare printed book about the subject under an alternate name.
Another way the "web of knowledge" is kept clean is by the wikilinks which cross-reference to other articles where the names are spelled differently. However, if those other articles were also to be locked under private pre-vetting, then the public would have even less chance of detecting the common alternate names. I understand that some people think I am "apologetically" trying to justify some rare cases of infringement, but what I am trying to emphasize is how having information widely available can, actually, reduce overall infringement, by having many thousands of people reviewing the materials, looking for copies while also checking for inaccuracies or out-dated text. This concept of "public review" is in comparison to imagining a core group of "private reviewers" who could not cope with the complexity of changes in spelling (or dual words) for the same term in thousands of cases for the main towns of a billion people. I guess the central focus is to understand how difficult pre-vetting of text would be in a more-restrictive system. Of course, this is not as much of a similar risk for videos, but any additional copyright restrictions for video would likely impose similar restrictions on books and webpage text as well. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:24, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I can't understand what you wrote, but the impression I get is that you are saying that copyright infringement is sometimes justified. Is that right? Looie496 (talk) 03:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Infringement can be difficult to detect: I am not saying some copyright infringement could be justified, but rather, the key point is that a small amount of copyright infringement can be very difficult to detect because of multiple names for the same topic. Plus, in those cases, the "public review" by hundreds of readers can be more effective than "private review for pre-vetting" to detect and remove the copied text. However, I share your view that these issues can be very difficult to understand, at first glance. Perhaps we should use the term "Copyright calculus" to indicate just how complex the issues are for avoiding copyright infringement, while still allowing for partial fair-use excerpts of protected works. That might be a reason that other people are advising Jimbo to be accompanied by copyright attorneys whenever discussing copyright issues on camera. I would feel more confident if I had thoroughly read some modern textbooks about copyright law, as taught by a major law school. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:46, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the real-world relevance here. How many people straight-copy large chunks of text, but change all the city names? How many automatic plagiarism detectors wouldn't spot the straight-copied bits of text between the names? More likely, editors looking up an obscure variant (even "misspelling") of a name would blunder straight into the source in a Google hit and thereby the copying would be exposed.

More to the point, why should spotting the copying be our responsibility? We get text from individual contributors who promise it is not taken from anywhere else. If it was copied, we likely don't have access to the resource it was copied from. We have articles that are extensively reworked and couldn't use much of the text as-is anyway. By comparison, the owner of a document has one single simple bit of text to search on the Web. They have guaranteed access to everything on our site, every article, every talk page, and it comes up even if they just search Google. In one moment they can spot any copying of their text or know there isn't any, which we couldn't do in a month. The law makes it their responsibility to look for violations of their private property. Wnt (talk) 18:04, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

• Regarding questions of relevance and responsibility: As I indicated above, I think text chunks being copied from books is relatively rare now. Notices of suspected copyvios certainly are rare at: WT:Copyright_problems. Perhaps the copies are not found sooner because "automatic plagiarism detectors" require the sources to be scanned onto the Internet as text data, rather than full-page photo images. However, Wikipedians continually spot and remove copied text, per WP:Copyrights#Copyright violations (in WP:COPY), which tells editors to remove it:

"If a page contains material which infringes copyright, that material – and the whole page, if there is no other material present – should be removed. See Wikipedia:Copyright violations for more information, and Wikipedia:Copyright problems for detailed Template:J

The detailed policy WP:COPYVIO even recommends reverting to a clean, older revision, with a long explanation about first checking to see if the copying was authorized somehow to be allowed in the article. Perhaps the main WP:Copyrights policy would be something that movie moguls should know, how Wikipedia directs all editors to beware and remove unlicensed copyrighted materials, rather than fostering a culture of "copy and see if anyone complains"—no, instead there is an edit-protected policy page that directs people to remove unauthorized content, and that policy page cannot even be vandalized to trick users to think sharing of copyrighted films is allowed in Wikipedia when it is not. -Wikid77 11:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course Wikipedia policy is strongly against copyright violation when it is known to exist, as there is legally a duty against knowing copyright infringement. And of course Wikipedia goes far out of its way to track down and pull out copyright violations when the authors haven't even complained - light-years further than any of the normal social networking and file storage kinds of sites. But this proactive removal is not done out of responsibility to the owners; rather it is done as a service to the users who should be able to copy content from Wikipedia and have fairly good confidence that it is genuinely reusable (even though it is impossible to actually guarantee that, given the editing model). Wnt (talk) 18:42, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

An Idea For a Banner

Hi Jimbo, Why don't wmf run a advertising campaign along the lines of ' Wikipedia is edited by people like you' because most people I know think you wrote it (they're pretty stupid because that would take around 60 years)? I think if we want more editors we should raise awareness. Thanks--William George Dover [Willdude123] 19:34, 3 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Willdude123 (talk • contribs)

• It would take more like 10,139 years (creating 1 article per hour) and fluency in 282 languages. That would be writing the 21 million articles, at 1 per hour, 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year: 21,089,000 / 40 / 52 ~= 10,139 years. That also assumes the photos, animations, videos and sound files magically appear. However, one person might create articles faster after the first 1,000 years! -Wikid77 (talk) 19:59, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
  • You underestimate my typing speed, haha.  :) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:10, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
• Yeah quite a few people don't realize that it's even in any other languages.It's a bit like the joke where one fish says to the other 'What's this talk about water?'.They use it all the time buot have no idea how it got there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Willdude123 (talk • contribs) 20:08, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Wikid77's error is assuming that Jimbo can only write one article per hour, and also that he only works a paltry 40 hours per week. Also underestimated is Jimbo's "self-cloning" capability. You see, the success of Wikipedia is due to "two, three, many Jimbos". Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:35, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia wrote itself. We all just happened to come by and find it. Jimbo was first, or at least that's what he tells us. ;)--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 00:40, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

In Soviet Russia, Wikipedia edits you!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:08, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• Threw this mockup together, not brilliant but hey,I did it in paint. --Willdude123 17:14, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
  • The idea isn't completely bad, but I'd suggest that people who think Jimbo wrote wikipedia all by himself won't be an asset here due to their lack of brain power. In addition, those who, after 11 years, still don't get what wikipedia is, are equally useless. Most people I know know quite well that they could contribute but simply choose not to. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 17:27, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Re:Jimbo. Have you seen a bit of memes off Memebase? – We are legion. We never forget. (Plarem) ^{(User talk)} 14:11, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Lamar Smith's data retention bill out of House committee

I just received an e-mail from Demand Progress about an Internet spying bill by the author of SOPA requiring ISPs to retain data about users and their reading for 18 months.^[1] Would the bill have any effect on Wikipedia (e.g. changing the retention of checkuser data and therefore, most likely, making sockpuppet policies harsher)? Do people feel Wikipedia should get involved in this one? Wnt (talk) 18:49, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I have not read the bill closely enough to have formed a strong opinion. But a cursory reading suggests that it wouldn't really apply to websites. It's about ISPs.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:06, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

[Addendum] - Also in some Internet chatter that I've seen about it, it is alleged that the bill requires ISPs to keep records of everyone's browsing history. But it seems to only require that ISPs keep records of what dynamic ip numbers they assigned to people. Presumably this is to facilitate tracing things back to a particular customer. I'd love to read a more detailed and NPOV analysis of it. So I will read this now.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:19, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

While the bill appears to have that meaning, I mistrust its application. "A commercial provider of an electronic communication service shall retain for a period of at least one year a log of the temporarily assigned network addresses the provider assigns to a subscriber to or customer of such service that enables the identification of the corresponding customer or subscriber information" You'd think that means ISPs, but so far as I can tell, neither the bill nor chapter 121 define "electronic communication service", and people on Wikipedia do communicate. You'd think Wikipedia isn't commercial, but all its software runs on commercial servers. You'd think at least Wikipedia doesn't allocate IP addresses, but under IPv6, is that really true regarding all the weird extra bits of those addresses? As a sibling of SOPA, the bill surely must be aimed at file sharing, even though it is sold as "fighting child pornography" because that's the master key to break through every right of free communications, anonymity and privacy known to man. Terms like "knowing that such transaction will facilitate access to, or the possession of, child pornography" sound like they're aimed more at people who sell encryption software and anonymizers than people selling kiddie porn. Censors are, by nature and essence, haters of truth, friends of deception. Wnt (talk) 03:48, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oh god. *facepalms* They pulled out the Think of the children card. Now anyone who opposes this will be labeled a child pornography enabler. Silverseren^C 04:05, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• That seems to be the current weapon-of-choice for people who just want to manipulate the good ol' public using the hype-by-mass-hysteria route. Back in the old days, it would have been "Burn the witches!" Pesky (talk …stalk!) 06:49, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

ISPs currently keep such records, folks. And libraries maintain log-in sheets for their computers as well. And since the bill does not apply to websites, as it stands, this may simply be a further attempt to politicize Wikipedia. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:12, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

There's clearly nothing here for Wikipedia to get involved in, it doesn't affect the site, but it does affect us normal internet users, so we can individually speak out all we want. Wikipedia shouldn't be doing anything though, of course, that's pretty obvious. Silverseren^C 17:26, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

(ec) At least currently, Americans can enjoy the illusion that somewhere, some other library might be letting people talk online without tracking them for Big Brother. And more to the point, there's always the chance the library is careless with the records, runs out of disk space and tosses them out. Now if someone were really trading child porn from the terminal, that wouldn't stop the federal agents from showing up, but if it's only the lawyer for the writer of the Harry Potter series trying to track down someone who posted about how it ends, he might decide the chance of not finding anything makes it not worth filing the subpoena and getting the bad press. The illusion is not as good as freedom, but it's still worth hanging onto. Wnt (talk) 17:31, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

GA Review on an Article In Which You Have Expressed Interest

Hi Jimbo,

You recently expressed interest in the work of WWB Too, a paid editor working for Cracker Barrel and other companies wishing to improve their image by modifying their Wikipedia articles to minimize negative publicity. I wanted to let you know that WWB Too has done a major rewrite of the Cracker Barrel article in his user space, and that another editor replaced the existing Cracker Barrel article with WWB Too's rewrite. The new article has now been nominated for good article status. I thought you might want to participate in the GA review process, or at least monitor its progress. Cheers, Ebikeguy (talk) 22:20, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Which version was the last one before the replacement?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:36, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Here is the diff showing the changes made when the rewrite was posted. Seems like there was a fair amount of activity on the article while the draft copy in WWB Too's userspace was undergoing peer review (of course the peer review was for the main article, but it instructed editors to look at the draft copy in WWB's user space). Ebikeguy (talk) 23:14, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• Things have been coming along well and i've made sure to have multiple people check for neutrality at every step of the way. After the GA nomination, we're going to put it up for another peer review, geared specifically toward fulfilling the requirements of FAC, and then a FAC nomination. Because the GA nom got picked up so quickly by someone, it shouldn't be too long (a month, maybe two) before WWB and I can get it up to FA status, depending on how long FAC takes, especially with all the current fracas over there. Silverseren^C 02:32, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, and not much actually changed. Most of the red marked changes you see are because we swapped the positions of the history and restaurant sections, with history being put first instead. The only other big change was the removal of the campaign donations section, as most of the sources there didn't even mention Cracker Barrel and it seemed like undue weight, info that should instead be in the article on Tom Delay's campaign. But other than those three sentences and the re-ordering, there were mainly just fixing of how sentences sounded, word flow and all of that. I did a ton of fixes on the references and then we added the lede. Silverseren^C 02:37, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• Silver's right about the process so far; we've worked with some previously uninvolved editors at Peer review and GA review to obtain further input, and it's been a success. It may be worth noting, there is actually a more thorough discussion of controversies now, compared to what was there prior to my involvement.

And for what it's worth, I have made no direct edits to the live article since objections were raised, and before that I'd made only copy edits. From the very beginning, my goal has been to seek community consensus. Although there have been some ups and downs, I think this is a good example of how the volunteer community and company representatives can work together, making articles better from the perspective of Wikipedia and outside interests both. Cheers, WWB Too (talk) 22:39, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

And for following the rules scrupulously, you are to be commended, indeed. Collect (talk) 12:37, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

A question about our policies on living people

Jimbo, as the only WMF representative here who actually responds to questions, I am curious if using a picture of a Siberian tiger (on a user page, not in the article itself) to represent a living person known primarily for their extensive facial plastic surgery (Jocelyn Wildenstein) is in keeping with Wikipedia's policies on biographies of living people or with the WMF statements in regard to how living persons should be treated on all WMF projects? To me this is a no-brainer, but I am not known for my good judgment, especially of late. Details are discussed in this ANI discussion, although I would hate for anyone to think that I am blatantly canvassing for your opinion in this matter. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:52, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I think Stv's response here is more than enough to show that there isn't a BLP violation. You really need to stop this crusade, DC, the AfD did not go through and going after the creator of the article now is just over the top. Silverseren^C 20:50, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I am asking about something that I view as a clear and unambiguous violation of our policy and the WMF's statement on how we treat living people. Aside from the fact that User:Stvfetterly is the one making the violation, it actually has less to do with them than it does to do with treating Wildenstein with respect. If the image goes, I will leave Stvfetterly to continue their pattern of using obviously poor sources like Google's cache of an online store (so long as they don't do it with any biographies that happen to draw my attention). Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:42, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I think it's very much ambiguous, if it is even a violation at all. You have no information, such as a statement from Wildenstein on the name, or anywhere else that using such an image is treating her with disrespect. Silverseren^C 22:57, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I know what your opinion is, I was asking for Jimbo's... Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:04, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

It's poor behavior, rude and insensitive, and I'm disappointed to see it - and more disappointed to see it defended by others.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:54, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I think you need to read this diff, Jimbo. Stv perfectly explains, with sourced quotes, that Wildenstein purposefully had herself changed to look like a cat and is "ecstatic" at the outcome, having gotten "exactly what she wanted". In light of this, how is affiliating someone with something they like a BLP violation? Silverseren^C 15:38, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Image filter update

Jimbo, any news [2] on how things will (or will not) move forward from here? --JN466 00:57, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

No, I have no news. We ended up not discussing it at the board meeting.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:50, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. --JN466 12:15, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

You were mentioned! (And linking to your request for editors)

Jimbo, you were mentioned here in connection with the Shakespeare authorship question, a series of articles you have taken some interest in. It would be great if you weighed in with some deep thoughts... or some shallow ones if you think they might go over better! Smatprt (talk) 02:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

• The fact that you were personally attacked and then belittled after you left the Oxfordian Theory page [[3]] is the perfect example of what is wrong here. If you (of all people) get bullied off a series of pages, how on earth can we expect new editors to stick around?Smatprt (talk) 02:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
• And speaking of editors... are there any of Jimbo's watchers that might be willing to take up Jimbo's challenge? He has called for "a large influx of uninvolved editors". Cavaet: As Jimbo has warned, "It's going to be an unpleasant experience... even if it is the right thing for Wikipedia" So... is there anyone daring enough to take on these bullies?Smatprt (talk) 02:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Paid Editing Topic @ Wikimania

Hi Jimbo,

I was wondering if you would support a discussion around paid editing issues at Wikimania - or maybe even participate. http://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Paid_Editors

I've learned a lot just following the discussions around WBToo, being a part of both Wikiprojects and seeing the discussions on Facebook. I'm also taking your recommendations very seriously and using "edit request".

I mentioned your name as a suggested panelist, but then felt I should ask you first. While 85% of the issues with paid editing are on the PR side of the pond, it would be great to foster some meaningful in-person discussions with representatives from the Paid Advocacy Watch, Wikiproject Cooperation, PR and yourself.

I'm not asking you to change your mind on anything and have even defended your "bright line" repeatedly in the CREWE group. It would be great for you to share that message at the conference along with other viewpoints. King4057 (talk) 03:52, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

"Paid editing" is a misleading topic name. It lumps together too many diverse things, muddying the issue. "Paid advocacy" is the problem that we have to deal with.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:28, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

What about unpaid advocacy? 86.173.251.202 (talk) 11:41, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Also an interesting topic, but a different topic. The idea that since there is unpaid advocacy, we should ignore the solvable problem of paid advocacy is a total non sequitur.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:48, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

My point was, what about advocacy? Why is paid advocacy different from unpaid advocacy? My experience is that unpaid advocates tend to be fanatical and prescriptive and persistent. Paid advocates, by contrast, are usually doing a job, and often have a reputation to protect. That was my point. 86.173.251.202 (talk) 15:20, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree. That's why it is important and valuable to clarify policy around paid advocacy - it's achievable and it will work. Unpaid advocacy is a different problem, also worthy of attention, but usually when people make your point they are asking the community to either lump the two together or to give up in despair. I see zero relevance. They are different problems, and they need different solutions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:25, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I fail to understand. The point and principle of Wikipedia is that what people say is relevant. If what they say is non-neutral or biased, an army of editors will pick this up and correct it instantaneously. That is the theory of Wikipedia and behold, it works. To go behind what is actually written in the article is to undermine the whole principle which made Wikipedia work. 86.173.251.202 (talk) 15:58, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

We need to have a discussion Jimbo

I adore you.... but I need to ask you something. Talk back please :). Cigaro Pizarro (talk) 15:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)