Talk:Moka pot

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Talk page created on 2006-09-11.

Clarity in the Maintenance Section

Paragraph 2 begins, "After use, an often desired coat of oily coffee residue is left lining the interior of the stems, filters and upper chamber." The expression often desired is confusing.

Does it mean that some people prefer their Moka Pots to have this residue? Does it improve function? Flavor? Do some people consume this oily residue? Bake with it? These might sound like a stupid questions to someone familiar with the way Moka Pots work, but to someone who comes to this article because they don't even know what a Moka Pot is, the ambiguity is needlessly confusing.

It seems to me that if it's worth mentioning that the residue is "often desired" then it's also worth mentioning who desires it and why. If it's not worth adding the extra sentence to clarify, then I don't think it's worth including the awkward and confusing expression in the first place. I would correct this myself, but I, personally, have no idea why this residue would be desired -- either often or on occasion. --Brijohn6882 (talk) 23:13, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Is the reworded section better now? cojoco (talk) 23:51, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe it would be better to say "some users prefer" or "some manufacturers recommend". The problem with "it is often desired" (or similar language) is that you do not say when it is desired. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.87.103.56 (talk) 02:17, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Moka Cup Size

Corrected the size of the average moka cup from 10 to 20 ml after direct measurement (I agree I was a bit pessimistic). Removed the 10-cl argument, since it was in the wrong place and obviously made by someone with no direct experience. I understand that an American coffee drinker can hardly believe how small Italian cups are, but I assure the correctness of my statement. Tassone 13:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Extra-pressure Moka versions

I have a great Moka pot at home that has an extra pressure-stopper on top of the upper spout. It's made by the Bialetti company just the same, but it actually gives my coffee a crema. I don't see any reference to this machine, though I'm fairly sure there used to be, somewhere on Wikipedia. Does anyone know what happened to the older article? --Eli Brody 08:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Eli, Shalom..

I believe you are talking about the Brikka model by bialetti. There is a short stub at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brikka

Kol Tuv, Myron Joshua 212.199.119.26 18:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I added a Brikka section, I think the stub should be removed.Geo8rge (talk) 18:17, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Patented Shape

I removed this factoid from "trivia:"

• The shape of the Moka Express is patented

Even if the Moka shape was patented (which seems reasonable) the design patent should not have lasted more than 20 years and would have expired. Perhaps it was supposed to mean "trademarked"? Please fix this (ideally while providing a citation) before adding it back to the article. Thanks! —mako๛ 13:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I think is trademarked. Imitations usually have some slight difference in design (ten-sided base instead of eight-sided, or a cylindrical upper part). StefanoC 12:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Moka vs. Espresso cooker

I had a look at the (German) page for Espresso cookers, and I don't find many differences with Italian-style mokas, unless it's the material (stainless steel instead of aluminium). StefanoC 12:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Not a how-to

The tips section I added was removed as "WP is not a howto". While I appreciate that point, this conflicts with the "Brewing" and "Maintenance" sections which provide guidance on the use of the device (similar to a howto). Additionally, I don't see how brewing tips would impact the quality of the article and would be of use to visitors (as the brewing and maintenance sections are). If the tips are better referenced and written as paragraphs can they be included again, or is there a seperate page where they can be placed? Singelet 11:48, 14 January 2008 (CAT)

A few notes on the usage of a moka are fine in the context of explaining what it is and how it works, but listing a "tips" section such as would be found in a manual is outwith the spirit of Wikipedia. An externally linked page with such comprehensive information would be fine under WP:NOT and WP:EL. Deiz talk 11:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Singelet 14:11, 14 January 2008 (CAT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.23.137.211 (talk)

vs Espresso

I'm not sure I understand, this page and the page for Espresso both say there's a difference but also say that this is how Espresso was first made. That doesn't make sense. The product may be different, but if this is an early version of espresso, saying that this isn't true espresso seems to mischaracterize the product.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 20:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Doug, are you confused bacause it's said that steam pressure was used in both, the first espresso cookers and the Moka pan? True espresso brew requires a relatively high brewing pressure, the Moka pan doesn't get close to that. The first espresso makes used steam, but the steam pressure was higher as in Moka pans. So Moka pan (or similar) has never been used to brew true espresso.

Roman

88.195.98.165 (talk) 10:19, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, well then I think we need to find sources for both articles to show this. In any case, the product of a Moka pot is not ordinary coffee, more like Turkish or Arabic Coffee (produced by boiling very finely ground coffee in water, separation is by settling), or light espresso. I drink a fairly strong black coffee but my Moka pot coffee is the closest thing I've seen to espresso. I think it was on the manufacturer's page that I saw that Moka pot coffee was half way between regular coffee and espresso, sort of like a Café Americano.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 18:24, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I would note also that at least one of the references on this article calls it "moka pot coffee (or stovetop espresso)". --Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 18:27, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Retailers like Sweetmarias.com and others use the term Moka Pot, so I think the term is in common use.

This brewing method has been called under this name for more than 70 years, -it is the third wave within coffee which stresses the difference between 9-bar machines and stove top coffee makers. And, although I do agree with this, history is history. The moka pot has been called Moka Express (with an 'x', still on the original italian product packaging) for such a long time, it seems a fight against windmills to change this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.118.252.7 (talk) 09:06, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Every source I've seen highlights that this is not espresso, as does common sense and a look at the Espresso page. There is no real (<100 mm H2O) pressure involved. I was surprised to find the article consistently and blatantly wrong about this. It is simply hot water passing through grounds and a sieve, i.e. coffee. I won't start an edit war, though. I hope actives with more time will. 85.23.51.77 (talk) 20:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Every dictionary I've referenced agrees here. Espresso is "a strong coffee prepared by forcing live steam under pressure, or boiling water, through ground dark-roast coffee beans." -Random House or.. "A strong coffee brewed by forcing steam under pressure through darkly roasted, powdered coffee beans." - The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language.

The Moka Espresso pot most certainly uses steam to force the water through the grounds. Now does it produce a crema like a $2000 machine? No. But that doesn't mean it isn't an espresso. The way we define different kinds of coffee is all in the method that beverage is extracted. Feel free to pigeon hole this as "Moka" (Moka being a type of espresso) if you want, but don't attempt to exclude it from the category. It most certainly isn't drip coffee (which you seem to imply with "It is simply hot water passing through grounds and a sieve, i.e. coffee"). It is important to note that strength of the beverage has nothing to do with its classification, as some former posters have suggested. If you were to place only a half a tea spoon of finely ground dark coffee into a very expensive espresso machine and make the drink, you would still have an espresso, albeit a very weak one. Go back to the main Espresso page. It even links to this page. (And there is no mention of a <100 mm H2O requirement by the way) Re-read how the espresso page defines the functionality of an espresso machine, and compare to the function of the moka pot. Thanks. Saji Loupgarou (talk) 02:04, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The definitions cited from dictionaries for espresso are . . . well, incomplete or inaccurate. No espresso machine (pump driven or steam driven) nor moka pot makes coffee by forcing steam through ground coffee. All of them force water through the coffee. Some force boiling water through the coffee. Some use steam pressure as a "driving force" to force water through the coffee. Some residual steam may go through the grinds . . . but the amount of liquid coffee produced by this steam is negligible at best.

A visit to the Espresso page will confirm this. Pump driven espresso machines force neither boiling water nor steam through coffee grinds. They force hot water (90C-95C) through coffee grinds at a pressure of ~9 bar. Steam powered or pumpless espresso machines can be considered moka pots in disguise. They work like a moka pot, but look like a semi-automatic espresso machine. A modern steam powered espresso machine generates about 0.5-1.5 bar gauge pressure to drive water through coffee grounds. Because this pressure is generated by steam one can reference a steam table to find that the temperature of the water is between 110C to 127C (saturated steam temperature at 0.5-1.5 bar gauge pressure).

The extraction process at this temperature is greatly different from that of a modern espresso machine. Though proponents of steam powered espresso machines use the term espresso to describe the coffee, I would hesitate to call this espresso. Moka pot coffee is extracted under very different conditions than (pump driven) espresso. StateOfTheUnion (talk) 21:00, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Just as a quick clarifying response (and others have been suggesting it above), I believe the important point is that steam-passing-through-ground-coffee is what makes something espresso, and a moka pot -- although it uses steam to force the water upwards -- creates coffee by forcing liquid water through the coffee grounds.Dgianotti (talk) 17:14, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Excellent response. That's precisely the difference. Yworo (talk) 17:19, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Espresso is obtained by forcing hot (90-95 Celsius) water under pressure through ground coffee; the moka passes boiling water (no pressure) through ground coffee. Coffee made with moka cannot be classified as espresso, and as I am italian I can guarantee that nobody there would call such a coffee an espresso. Furthermore, the espresso was called this way because of the short extraction time, which does not apply to the moka coffee. (Antonio, Jun 12 2011)

Bottom line is that industry bastards have taken the liberty of defining "espresso". I'll no sooner stop calling my moka-made liquid jolt "espresso" than I'd let McDonalds define for me what "chicken patty" is. Unconscionable that anyone would argue otherwise in good faith. 174.113.240.160 (talk) 15:53, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, this raises the fundamental issue about whether Wikipedia will rely on either Wiktionary or on industrial alliances in sorting out the definitions of the words we little humans use to convey meaning to each other. I guess WP prefers the conflict-of-interest faction because it's so much sexier.174.113.240.160 (talk) 16:01, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Name change?

Although it's probably the most common name by far, Moka Espress is a trademark of Bialetti. In the same line as Frisbee, I suggest this should be renamed Moka pot or Espresso pot, both names are used in sources.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 06:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree I also think the Brikka article should be merged with this one. I also think mention of generic moka pots should be mentioned Geo8rge (talk) 17:32, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

So which is it? "Moka pot" or "Espresso pot". I can't find any information on the use of the word "Moka" in Italian prior to the invention of the "Moka Express", so it may just be an adaptation of the trademark name. Bialetti seems to call them "Stovetop espresso makers" or maybe "Espresso pots", when describing what the "Moka Express" is.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 16:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

In Italy they're usually referred to as a "Cafeteira". 95.172.194.202 (talk) 08:18, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Cruising the BialetteUSA site, it is called a coffee maker. I saw very few references to espresso anywhere on their site. Even Brikka is called a stovetop coffee maker. Stovetop espresso is probably not a term used or invented by the Bialetti company. Geo8rge (talk) 04:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

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moka pot dosage

The average moka pot dosage is 150mL of water, and 17 grams of ground coffee. When you are finished you get 3 servings 50mL each. Phil (talk) 20:25, 20 February 2009 (UTC)Phil

Reference? cojoco (talk) 23:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Also See

Someone (who knows a lot more about coffee than I do) should add references to (1) Bialetti Brikka , and (2) the Neapolitan (a.k.a. Napolitana) flip style coffee maker. It took me a longtime to discover these terms. I wish they had been in Wikipedia under Percolator or Moka Pot or Espresso or Coffee Makers (all the places I looked first). Thanks.

In the section title "Brewing Coffee with a Moka", the first word should be "Water". One should never use milk in a moka !! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.116.218 (talk) 21:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Induction Stove

Article currently says that these do not work on induction stoves. But as far as I could find out online - apparently that's only the case for aluminium moka pots, not for steel or stainless steel pots. Or - do they work but they break the stove? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.78.244.244 (talk) 18:16, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Not all stainless steels models work on induction stoves, but some of them do. (Uitos) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uitos (talk • contribs) 12:37, 15 June 2011 (UTC)