Talk:Moorish Science Temple of America

Wallace Fard Muhammad

I'm not so sure that Wallace Fard Muhammad claimed to be a member, I've read otherwise. --Irishpunktom\^talk July 5, 2005 15:37 (UTC)

I don't think he ever claimed to be a member, but it is usually thought that he was one. Paul B 18:14 5 july 2005 (UTC)

Wallace Fard Muhammad was never a member He is Independent of such a group. He hasn't followed any group before this and He never will He shouldn't be mentioned and He never claimed to be Noble Drew Alis reincarnation and surely this is a trick from the mischief makers to bring in falsehood to dilute the truth and make it cloudy. Don't listen to a word of what has been said here about Wallace Fard Muhammad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.254.250.9 (talk) 22:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The aforementioned statement is true. Wallace Fard Muhammad aka Wallace Dodd, never claimed to be Noble Drew Ali. He, according to my studies claimed to be the physical maninfestation of God, Allah, in the flesh. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad was a former member of the Moorish Science Temple, and later founded the Nation of Islam, heralding Wallace Muhammad as Allah in the Flesh. Neither Fard Muhammad nor Elijah Muhammad were ever members of this group. Elijah Muhammad said that he was quite aware of this group and even addressed them on several occasions but was never a member. We should take him on his word for his own account of his life and experiences. Why should we assume him a liar. It stands to reason that He and Fard may have been influenced by them to a degree, but that doesn't mean they were members at any time, and there is no evidence to support such claims. And to use that image-processed picture of Elijah wearing the fez is nothing but a cheap trick; hardly evidence at all. Peace!Hotep —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.58.133.62 (talk) 08:40, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The sentence concerning Wallace Fard Muhammad comes from several sources and has 2 citations. I myself only know what I read. Mr. Harman (talk) 03:09, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Fact check?

When was he born? Other references I've seen say January 8th, not January 6th:

http://www.geocities.com/spirit_of_blackness/nobel_drew_ali.htm

or

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Woods/4623/moors.htm

Symmetric 23:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

---

I don't know how to post, so I am editing this to post, everything before edit remained as it was. We have to remember we are dealing with a Euro-centric resource of 'information'. Fact is opinion and opinion is fact. Look at the language that is used in this article; the malevolent intention can be clearly seen.

"A primary tenet was the belief that there was a Negroid-looking population of aboriginal paleo-Americans that existed prior to the transatlantic slave trade that was subsequently confused with African people."

"he labeled all whites as European."

Free White Persons: “Free White Persons” referred to in Naturalization Act, as amended by Act July 14, 1870, has meaning naturally given to it when first used in 1 Stat. 103, c 3, meaning all persons belonging to the European races then commonly counted as white, and their descendants, including such descendants in other countries to which they have emigrated. Free White Persons includes all European Jews, more or less intermixed with peoples of Celtic, Scandinavian, Teutonic, Iberian, Latin, Greek, and Slavic descent. It includes Magyars, Lapps, and Finns, and the Basques and Albanians. It includes the mixed Latin, Celtic-Iberian, and Moorish inhabitants of Spain and Portugal, the mixed Greek, Latin, Phoenician, and North African inhabitants of Sicily, and the mixed Slav and Tarter inhabitants of South Russia. Free White People does not mean Caucasian race, Aryan race, or Indo-European races, nor the mixed Indo-European, Dravidian, Semitic and Mongolian peoples who inhabit Persia. A Syrian of Asiatic birth and descent will not be entitled to become a naturalized citizen of the United States as being a free white person. Ex parte Shahid, D.C.Or., 6 F.2d 919, 921; Ex parte Dow, D.C.S.C., 211 F. 486, 487; In re En Sk Song, D.C.Cal., 271 F. 23. Nor a native-born Filipino. U. S. v. Javier, 22 F.2nd 879, 880, 57 App.D.C. 303. Nor a native of India who belonged to Hindu race. Kharaiti Ram Samras v. United States, C.C.A.Cal., 125 F.2nd 879, 881.

A following quote from Federal Directive 15 Race and Ethnicity that this fraud is based partly upon.

"This Directive provides standard classifications for record keeping, collection, and presentation of data on race and ethnicity in Federal program administrative reporting and statistical activities. These classifications should not be interpreted as being scientific or anthropological in nature, nor should they be viewed as determinants of eligibility for participation in any Federal program."

You talking about facts, but your entire opinion is based upon federal classifications.

FRAUDS.

Problems

There is absolutely no mention of the various controversies related to Moorish Science. In particular the fraudulent money schemes such as "redemption theory" that have landed "Moors" in jail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.215.28 (talk) 20:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there is quite a bit that can be added about the Moors from Drew's death to the present. Mr. Harman (talk) 03:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Questions

Respectfully, my two questions, one why is this group discussed in the past tense when they still exist? Not only do they have a temple in Albany NY but about 7 years ago I met a woman who was a Moor. Signs with Noble Drew Ali on them were carried at the Million Man March in the 1990s. Should there not be at least some reference to this organization today? The entry makes it look like the organization no longer exists. (Note, I am not qualified to discuss this but wish to learn.)

Secondly, why are they not mentioned under African-American religions on the index? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.110.133.104 (talk • contribs) (00:32, 5 June 2008)

It's added to the list in the article Afro-American religions.--Parkwells (talk) 19:36, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

This group is heavily active in the Michigan Prison system.99.180.72.142 (talk) 19:10, 9 January 2009 (UTC)Officer

Article needs significant editing

The article needs some significant editing to clear up NPOV issues, weasel words, generally poor grammar, and lack of coherency. I, unfortunately, have no knowledge of the subject matter (I came here looking for information myself). I could make edits to improve the quality of the writing, but I would be guessing in a lot places, so I'd prefer it if someone with more background could take the first crack. Let me point out some of the problems:

Noble Drew Ali's Beginnings First, this section really isn't appropriate for an article on MSTA. While discussion of the founder is important, the specific details of his life history either belong in a separate article or should be removed. Compare to other Wikipedia article on religion, such as Islam or Latter Day Saint Movement.

Second, a number of weasel words, such as "apparently," "wonder," and "supposedly" appear here. These add POV and obscure the quality of the information. It's okay to state that such and such a source claims that something is true, but not to hedge about whether or not it is true.

Early History and The Death of Drew Ali These sections seems good--relevant information, well-sourced, and readable.

Succession and Schism POV language: "But the truth of the matter" and "The question that baffles the communities," Sentences that just don't make sense: "But neither the less there is no minutes of record to ever prove that E. Mealy El was removed." "In addition to the names also used Moorish Holy Temple of Science Moorish Temple of Science, and the Moorish Divine and National Movement." I have no idea what these mean (they are not grammatically correct sentences). Confusing section: "There has been just recently discovered ... proof to show the Central Authority of the Moorish Science Temple of America." How does this relate to the rest of the section? I don't understand exactly how a court case can determine leadership of a religion. Courts could make rulings about who possesses the rights to use certain names, copyrighted works, or images; or they can determine who has legal custody over an organization (in a business sense), but in a religious sense, the courts would have no jurisdiction. So this section needs to be clarified and better integrated.

The 1930s Chronologically this section is awkward, since the death of Drew Ali falls in this time frame. My guess is that the best solution is to move the Death of Drew Ali and the Schism information here. Also, it is better to characterize periods based upon relevant events, not based upon a decade.

El Rukn connection? No title should have a question mark in it--encyclopedias contain verified content, not questions. I think someone needs to examine the source documents more clearly to determine more specifically how the possible connection is currently perceived.

Practices The whole third paragraph doesn't belong here. It's discussing the history of various Splinter groups, not the practices of any of those groups. This information should either be moved elsewhere or deleted. My guess is that we don't actually need an exact accounting of every single split and splinter--again, compare to articles on other religious denominations. Major events deserve discussion; minor schisms provide too many details. The paragraph also ends with an extreme POV statement that needs to be removed.

Finally, I think this article would strongly benefit from a clearer explanation of what it is that MSTA actually teaches--an "Articles of Faith," "Summary of Doctrine," or other similar information, assuming such information is publicly available.

I'm going to check back here in a week or two and see if anyone else has been able to make any progress on these issues. I would really really prefer someone else with actual source material knowledge start undertaking these edits. As it is now, the page probably should have Warning tags (POV, Weasel Words, etc.). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwyrxian (talk • contribs) 02:26, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

[Lending Assistance with Edits] First, Happy New Year to you all and good morning! I have made edits and included additional external references to the introductory paragraph. Your review and feedback would be greatly appreciated. When I get more time I will take a look at the points raised above as they appear to require more time than I have right now to address.

I have secured a copy of the MSTA's Holy Koran (religious text) and need time to produce a "Summary of Doctrine" for review by this group. From having studied numerous religions, although a practicing Eckist recently, it seems that Noble Drew Ali was attempting to reconstitute what was believe to be an older, more holistic religion that was split into what we call separate religions now; hence the appearance of borrowing from multiple paths. Neser 07 (talk) 13:58, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for coming to help. Unfortunately, some of what you added had to be removed. Specifically, all of this:

A recent article in the American Journal of Human Genetics which refutes the multiple migration theory may lend some credence to the Moorish Science Temple of America's claim / religious beliefs where it states in the abstract "[...] all Native American haplogroups, including haplogroup X, were part of a single founding population, thereby refuting multiple-migration models." It is well known that Paleo Americans do not phenotypically resemble American Indians and precede them in habitation of the Americas. Although prognathic Moundbuilders are phenotypically similar to Paleo Americans, it does not generally appear that Adherents to the Moorish Science Temple of America ever refer to, or incorporate, or also self-identify as Paleo American or Mound Builder; which would better align scientifically with their religious belief system as a 'science' temple.

The problem is that all of that information, while interesting, is what Wikipedia calls original research. Nothing in either of those articles is related to the MSTA. While it's very interesting that you're able to connect new research in genetics with the MSTA's beliefs, doing so is your own personal analysis, and cannot, as such, be added to a Wikipedia article. If a reliable source makes that connection (i.e., the church itself, a scientific journal, etc.), then we can include that info here. But we cannot present our own original analysis.

Similarly, there is no need for you to go through their Holy Koran and attempt to summarize it. Doing so would again count as original research. In fact, any time you have primary sources, and you interpret what they mean or connect two or more sources together, you're very likely conducting original research. Instead, what you can/should do, is look to secondary sources, most likely written by MSTA itself, that explain the teaching of the primary religious document, and then summarize what those teachings say. Since the MSTA appears to be fractured, we may even need to include more than one interpretation so that we account for all of the factions. But we cannot ourselves engage in the act of reading the original holy document and figuring out what it "really means". Qwyrxian (talk) 01:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

[Response] I was awaiting to see what the review would be for the portion that you removed, as listed above, as I was not exactly certain whether it would fit directly within the context of this particular article.

Based on first-hand interviews with Sheiks at the MSTA, referring to them as "African-American" in this article is a big No-No. What can be done to amend this article as to comply with their religious beliefs and the Racial Hierarchy Code entry R1.01.052.004? Black is a different code: R3.01. And, it was a surprise to me that "African American" is not the same as "Black" in the hierarchy code either: R3.02.

When asked on what basis they claim R1.01.052.004, they often refer to UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and they appear to be pulling from [a/res/61/295] Article 2 mostly. Neser 07 (talk) 19:56, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Factions

I removed the following from the article, and bring it here for discussion:

There are three major factions of the Moorish Science Temple.

Charles Kirkman-Bey became the head of what would eventually be the largest group, and which currently claims the name "Moorish Science Temple of America, Inc". Reportedly the largest faction, as of 1996 MSTA Inc. had 130 temples.[39] This faction of the Moorish Science Temple of America has been particularly successful in the prisons.[citation needed]

Another faction developed into the Reincarnated Temples, led by the Prophet’s former chauffeur, John Givens El, who thereafter called himself "Noble Drew Ali, Reincarnated". Givens El, and the brothers Richardson Dingle-El and Timothy Dingle El who succeeded him. Taught that the Prophethood of Noble Drew Ali remained intact. and passed on to them at the death of each before them. Similar to the succession of authority from father to son or grandson in Shia Isma’ili Islam.[citation needed] From the work of the Dingle El brothers came the splits of the Temple No. 13, and the creation of a faction headed in Baltimore, MD, called the Noble Order of Moorish Sufis [2] in Baltimore. Founded by the former Grand Mufti Sultan Rafi Sharif Bey on July 7, 1957, this group later led to the founding of the Moorish Orthodox Church and the Moorish League. The Order of the Resurrection with its Second Heaven Order of four degrees was co-written by Sheik Rafi Sharif Bey and Sheik Timothy Dingle El. This faction has since reportedly split into seven factions, and as of 1994 were represented by 30 affiliated temples.[40]

The third and smallest faction was lead by Bro. E. Mealy El as the Grand Sheik/Supreme Grand Sheik. This faction is still in existence, but with probably the fewest adherents out of the three; this group claims true lineage to the teachings of Noble Drew Ali, and has various followings by a few separate factions formerly held together by Sister D. Mealy El's step-grandson D. Bailey El (ex Grand Governor, now expelled for embezzlement). Succeeded by Sheiks in Chicago that Bailey El appointed prior to his official termination as Grand Governor and Sheik.That particular grand body headed by the Supreme Grand Council.

Currently headed by Grand Sheik and Chairman Emmanuel.Braswell Bey D.M., This group began with a few temples. But throughout the country the Prophet’s temples are re appearing throughout the US and abroad. Their quoted mission is to broadcast the prophet’s original authority to all 4 corners of the earth. In addition, are continuing the works of Noble Drew Ali. Temple #1, #7, #16, #21, #23, #24, #25, #33 and other study groups through out America and Abroad and they included in the States of Alabama, Maryland, Washington D.C., Virginia, Louisiana, New York, California, Ohio, Missouri. Illinois, Florida, New Jersey, Louisiana and Wisconsin. There are many inquires about the Original teachings of Noble Drew Ali. There are many inquires about the Original teachings of Noble Drew Ali. There are even acquires about the Moorish Divine movement in Africa, Europe and also in Canada and also islands of the off the coast of the Atlantic. The whole purpose of the Moorish Science Temple of America is the uplifting of Fallen Humanity.

First and foremost, none of this is referenced. Second, it is very problematic, especially with this subject, to start talking about the very schisms in the absence of reliable information. The opportunity exists for flagrantly POV edits promoting one "faction" over another. This has to stay out until it can be accurately sourced. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 00:06, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Alt URL for FBI documents

http://wayback.archive.org/web/20040315000000*/http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/moortemp.htm

WhisperToMe (talk) 05:38, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Negligence

The Moorish Science Temple of America, in its contemporary incarnation, is perhaps best known for its prison gangs that operate under the guise of religion. This article wholly elides this aspect of the Moorish Science Temple of America and is thus akin to an article that describes the tail of elephant without reference to the remainder of the mammoth beast. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.69.190 (talk) 18:33, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

If you can find references in Reliable Sources that support this assertion, please use them in the article. Thanks, Mr. Harman (talk) 02:39, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

It is worth mentioning, yes. However, it is clearly not the intention of the religious group. None of the teachings support this. Very similar can be said for prison gangs that operate under the guise of Islam or Christianity. What should be mentioned is that this religious group, like any other religious group that free men follow, is open to exploitation. I reject your notion that part of the group turns it into a "mammoth beast". Early movements like this one (which dates back to the 19th century) is what started many of the movements that led to the shift in attitudes towards African-Americans in the mid 20th century. (110.33.252.92 (talk) 14:43, 28 March 2012 (UTC))

Reversion of recent (March 26/27) work

Sheik Way-El:

I have reverted (removed) your recent edits to Moorish Science Temple of America. Why? Well, They violate a number of rules here at Wikipedia. In this instance, your recent edits are at odds with these particular rules:

• Reliable Sources. Unfortunately, your own self-published book is not considered a "reliable source". This is not to say that the information in your book is not reliable or correct, but rather it means that your book does not qualify as a reference here at Wikipedia because it was self-published.

• Neutral Point of View. Your recent material attempts to prove a number of points (e.g. African-Americans are really Moorish-Americans]]. We need to approach this subject without attempting to prove anything. Just the facts, please.

• Conflict of Interest. Because you are a member of and advocate for the Moorish Science Temple, you may be seen as having a conflict of interest. To quote: "Adding material that appears to promote the interests or visibility of an article's author, . . . employer, associates, or their business or personal interests, places the author in a conflict of interest."

I would be happy to work with you on improving the Moorish Science Temple article, but we need to be scrupulously neutral and use "Reliable Sources".

P.S. I love the photo. Great shot.

Thanks, Mr. Harman (talk) 02:39, 28 March 2012 (UTC)