Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Todd Akin rape and pregnancy controversy: Difference between revisions

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Todd Akin rape and pregnancy controversy

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News article masquerading as encyclopaedic. This is a content fork (WP:FORK) of Todd Akin, padded with quotes.

Although the matter has impact on the 2012 elections & Akin's career the reportage is fairly routine for election season. Per WP:EVENT we lack examples of enduring coverage - if the matter continues to make the news in the future then it may pass notability requirements, but it simply cannot now.

The standalone nature of this article is undue and the matter can happily be handled at Todd Akin, rendering this article useless (except as a dumping ground for more scandal).

Finally; per WP:EVENT we lack a diversity of sources; it is basically coverage of what he said, then various supporters or detractors commenting on it.

I'd support either a transwiki move to WikiNews (an appropriate venue for this content) or redirection/merge to Todd Akin. Errant ^(chat!) 11:11, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. WP:NOTNEWS This should be an entry in his bio. It should, however, not become the sole focus of the bio. Niteshift36 (talk) 11:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Merge back- it has great information and citations that can't be replaced, but the article is based on one event. In many such situations in the past, we merged such controversies back into the main article. Now, if he drops out of the race, a re-split may be needed. We'll burn that bridge when we cross it. Bearian (talk) 11:48, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- +1. M.S.K. (talk) 13:58, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - clearly meets WP:N. It has hundreds of reliable sources over multiple days. A simply google news search shows the number of reliable sources. If it had only been the comments from Akin, I would agree. But the calls for him to get out and other aspect make the vote a keep. It is a a multi day national news story. Plus the article is important to United States Senate election in Missouri, 2012 Casprings (talk) 11:58, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you explain how it passes WP:N, particularly WP:EVENT. I highlighted specific problems (though only the main ones) which you might like to address. --Errant ^(chat!) 12:01, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is a multi day story with hundreds of reliable sources. His actions, his apology, the calls by fellow republicans for him to step down, and the pulling of funding from the race are all national news stories. Clearly this meets WP:N and has enough WP:RS to do so.

As I noted; this is election season, the comment is controversial. The level of coverage is not especially compelling. The matter you describe certainly appears to be easily covered in his biography - but I think you lack a diversity of sources and lasting coverage beyond the usual news cycle (which is what WP:EVENT requires). We aren't even beyond the usual news cycle, so you simply cannot meet this requirement. --Errant ^(chat!) 12:35, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. WP:NOTNEWS. This is basically a shining example of political scandal of the week/day/hour. It deserves to be Akin's article, and any article on this year's 2012 Missouri Senate race, but no more....William 12:12, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Political scandals that meet WP:N get an article. See Rush Limbaugh–Sandra Fluke controversy Casprings (talk) 12:22, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Fails WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. The ink isn't even dry on this newspaper story yet. If he resigns this item belongs back in the article, if he pulls off a miraculous victory, this item still belongs back in the article.– Sir Lionel, EG^(talk) 12:20, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Could you clarify? I don't see which of the four bullet points of NOTNEWSPAPER could possibly apply here. This is not original journalism, nor "routine news reporting on things like announcements, sports, or celebrities ", nor a who's who, nor a diary. Khazar2 (talk) 12:54, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Editors quoting "WPNOTNEWS" might re-read WP:RAPID. Todd Akin went from little-known outside his state to international news overnight, generating more coverage in two days than he's likely had in his career to date. I can only assume the editors who argue this will have no significant follow-up coverage after today are joking--people still write about George Allen's macaca incident in 2000, and this is that turned up to eleven. To give a tiny example of the sort of detailed coverage this is receiving, check out this supplementary piece in the UK newspaper The Guardian explaining the origins of rape-pregnancy myths.[1] Attempting to summarize all this coverage (and the coming further coverage) in Todd Akin's article is impractical and would create a serious imbalance, making this WP:SPINOFF the best option. Wikipedia shouldn't have to wait four years to cover this in a substantive way. Khazar2 (talk) 12:37, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To put this in perspective, btw, to any editors who feel this is getting undue attention: Todd Akin's previous life, including ten years in Congress, generates 1,270 results in Google News Archives. Todd Akin gets 88,100 hits in current Google News. While these numbers obviously don't indicate quality of sources, it gives at least a rough idea of the notability of this incident compared to his biography to date. Using raw numbers, Akin's article would need to become 97% about this controversy to give it its due weight, and that's assuming not another word is written about it. For that reason, a spinoff seems like an obviously better solution. Khazar2 (talk) 13:20, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Its rarely possible to determine the level of importance of an event like this while it is still churning. Whether this is a new "Read my lips: no new taxes" kind of moment, or something less, we won't know for awhile. So whatever the outcome of this AfD, revisiting in 6 months may be good idea.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 12:39, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Yes, this issue is currently progressing though the 24-hour news cycle. However, as far as we know right now, it's just a news story. We are an encyclopedia, not a chronicle of what was momentarily controversial in late August 2012. This likely merits some sort of mention in the Todd Akin article, always keeping WP:UNDUE in mind. szyslak (t) 12:39, 21 August 2012 (UTC) (minor correction by szyslak (t) 12:41, 21 August 2012 (UTC))[reply]
Keep. Impressive coverage of current affair. Nothing present requiring deletion. When it becomes old, in a week or so, merge and redirect back to the main article as per any content fork. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:00, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Am I understanding your opinion correctly that you believe it is, or should be, standard practice to create a new article about a current event for as long as it remains relevant, even if that's only a week, and then to merge it back into another article? If that's a misunderstanding, could you please clarify? Theoldsparkle (talk) 13:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that it is, thought not that it should be. I believe that it is a hopeless fight, to eliminate US NEWS cycle politics-related forks from new article coverage. I also believe that it is net-Negaivite to fight via AfD, because it drives away new contributors. I think that Wikipedians should take a long term view. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:25, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The coverage currently in the Todd Akin article seems sufficient at this time. If the incident does achieve longstanding significance outside of the career of this particular politician, then by all means a stand-alone article might be justified in the future. Theoldsparkle (talk) 13:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - clearly meets WP:N. I agree that hundreds of reliable sources over multiple days makes this verifiable. A google news search, the number of reliable sources and the video replays show that this article is being accurately portrayed. Does this embarrass Republicans? It does. But the calls for him to get out of the race by other Republicans and other aspects make the vote a keep. It is a multi-day national news story and it is important to United States Senate election in Missouri, 2012 Casprings (talk) 11:58, 21 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vagabondthor (talk • contribs) [reply]
Merge back for the same reason we don't have a Wide stance article versus a redirect. Wikipedia is not the news, and there's no compelling reason for this subject to have it's own article. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 14:03, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But Wide stance redirects to Larry Craig scandal?--Milowent • ^hasspoken 14:36, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, you are correct. However, that was an arrest, which is a much bigger deal than a quote. It's possible it could become something bigger, but a standalone article is still premature at this point. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 15:32, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

delete Undue emphasis 98.118.62.140 (talk) 14:21, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Merge back to Todd Akin. This article is still short enough that it can satisfactorily be included in the main article; and I don't think the controversy is so notable that we must have a separate article for it (although it might yet become so, e.g. in the event that it leads to Akin's resignation). Robofish (talk) 14:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Merge back for now per Milowent -- difficult to say anything until the tide of interest has crested. a13ean (talk) 14:49, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Merge back At this time, the impact of his statement seems limited in scope, especially since he has immediately retracted his comment. I feel we can contain this in Todd Akin page. However, if the repercussions span further in the coming weeks, e.g., new law drafted and proposed or march on the Capitol or bid to overturning of Roe v. Wade, then we might be able to justify keeping the article. The title "Todd Akin rape and pregnancy controversy" would be fine. — Hasdi Bravo • 14:51, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge back Article's dripping in WP:Recentism, just happened, and fails the WP:Event rule John D. Rockerduck (talk) 14:58, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
weak merge back There are a lot of details but right now I think we can reasonably include them in the primary Akin article. This is only a weak call for merging because I suspect strongly that there will be more than enough in a few days to easily justify a separate article. JoshuaZ (talk) 15:32, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Besides overwhelmingly passing WP:GNG of WP:NOTABILITY, this is already having unprecedented repercussions in the Republican party garnering an outcry for resignations that hasn't been seen since Nixon. It would be willful ignorance to believe this controversy will magically be forgotten quickly. Far too much sourced topic-specific content to me merged to the biography article. WP:EVENT does not and has never "banned" articles about one event (this is an ongoing series of events actually). WP:EVENT is simply a guideline on how to deal with articles that are in fact about one event. --Oakshade (talk) 15:41, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep for now. This has received considerable international coverage with some sources referring to it as "rapegate" and arguing that the ramifications for the GOP will be far-reaching: [2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17]. Apart from the political hoopla, several sources have considered Akins's comments from a scholarly perspective, suggesting that they exemplify Rape myths which is an academic concept in its own right. I believe this has lasting power: Keep and revisit in six months. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 15:52, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Merge - Election 2012 fooliganism. A few sentences under his biography and/or a piece on the Missouri Senate race would be appropriate, this is essentially a news summary of a current event clearly created with POV intent. Carrite (talk) 16:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to make sure I have this straight: in the face of days of coverage in international media, in which tens of thousands of reliable sources have now explored the case from angles ranging from the historical to the political to the academic to the scientific, you're proposing a 2-3 sentence limit on our coverage. And on top of that, you're accusing the article's supporters of bad-faith POV editing? You've got chutzpah, I'll give you that. Khazar2 (talk) 17:44, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep for now. This really belongs as a subsection of a proper article about medical myths about rape rather than one about this particular mythologizer, but to non-US readers it is a useful example of the importance and prevalence of such myths, and their role in determining US policy. Hopefully a proper article on the substantive issue will be forthcoming shortly. VEBott (talk) 16:22, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep for now, review later, with possible Merge & Redirect if in a month (or after the beginning of the new year) to see if the event passes effect. There is more than enough coverage for the subject to pass WP:GNG, that being said when editing this article we need to be careful to ensure it maintains neutral presentation of the subject. However, that being said, this is an WP:EVENT that has received very heavy recent coverage (since the event occurred less than 72 hours ago) but I can not determine whether this subject will be independently notable in the long run, and thus Merger or Deletion discussions can begin at some later point in time if it is then determined that the subject of this article passes WP:EFFECT or WP:N#TEMP.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 16:35, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete no reason for a stand-alone article, we are not the news Hekerui (talk) 16:38, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, classic WP:CRYSTAL. It is possible this drama will develop into a game changing ruckus and then snowball into a politics and culture/paradigm changing event. It's possible it will eventually meet our criteria for WP:EVENT (gaffs by public figures in elections happen often, it's routine). But at the moment it's just a slip by a politician who said something unbelievably stupid, and is being badly burned for it in the media and may lose his career, and perhaps some ripples to his party or pro-life/pro-choice issues, or science/religion debate - or perhaps not. But right now all those are speculative, we don't have any evidence this will be less transient, more enduring, or have broader impact in its own right, compared to any other career-killing gaff. If the game changes then in a year or so, we can recreate. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 16:52, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge back for now Per Milowent. SaltyBoatr^{get wet} 17:05, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into the senate race's page Wainstead (talk) 17:16, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- +1. Palmwiz (talk) 17:52, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP I say Keep if he stays in the race, merge if he drops out. Could be the reason the race changes and as such is more notable. But if he drops out then he kills most of the reason for keeping. 216.81.94.71 (talk) 17:30, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or merge into another article. In another few months it's likely that everyone will have forgotten about this quote. It seems unnecessary to have a separate article about every flash in the pan story that's in the news. Zeromus1 (talk) 17:35, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 61: / Line 61: @@
 * '''Merge''' into the [[United_States_Senate_election_in_Missouri,_2012|senate race's page]] [[User:Wainstead|Wainstead]] ([[User talk:Wainstead|talk]]) 17:16, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
+** '''+1.''' [[User:Palmwiz|Palmwiz]] ([[User talk:Palmwiz|talk]]) 17:52, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * '''KEEP''' I say Keep if he stays in the race, merge if he drops out. Could be the reason the race changes and as such is more notable. But if he drops out then he kills most of the reason for keeping. [[Special:Contributions/216.81.94.71|216.81.94.71]] ([[User talk:216.81.94.71|talk]]) 17:30, 21 August 2012 (UTC)