Talk:Kshatriya

Ahirs/Yadavs are real Kshatriyas

Ahirs are doodhwalas, No, they were not thee kshatriyas, Why they are ashamed of saying themselves Ahir. The tribes and castes of Bombay, Volume 1 By Reginald Edward Enthoven

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=FoT6gPrbTp8C&pg=PA134&dq=yadavs+are+chandravanshi+kshatriyas&hl=en&ei=JA-sTaeLLofIrQfuzYSoCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=6wJ_TbmGMMyxrAeUudmtBw&ct=result&id=zxtuAAAAMAAJ&dq=gujjars+are+ahirs&q=ahirs

Also according to The Vayu purana the colonies of Kshatriyas are Vahlikas, Vadha- dhanas, Abhiras, Kalatoyakas, Aparitas, Sudras, Pahlavas.

http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=4yOUTcUPibSsB7Pm9P8L&ct=result&id=XFUIAQAAIAAJ&dq=abhira+afghanistan&q=The+colonies+of+Ksattriyas3+

The Vayu purana, Part 1-page-296

"Gujjar are not kshatriya this is mislead -wrong"

"vedic origin " "Gujjar are not kshatriya this is not in any veda. gurjjar, gujar, goojar are never be rajput. this is 100% wrong article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.215.178.44 (talk) 06:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the section for now. My reasoning is that the sources (eg: a book on costume) are poor, that there was an element of copyright violation in there, and that some of it was pure synthesis (the sentence trying somehow to infer that the Mihir name means that they must be kshatriya). I know that the position of Gurjars has been disputed on a few articles but cannot recall which ones. In any event, there is no harm in us thrashing out the pros and cons for there inclusion in this one. - Sitush (talk) 08:38, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 5 July 2012

I believe under the 'Khatriya Lineage" section we should list Punjabi Khatri's as representing kshatriyas of the Punjab region.

Raja4811 (talk) 02:56, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Are Punjabi thought of as a distinct, separate group? Do they have customs or behaviors that are different from those of other Kshatriyas? If so, could you point to some reliable sources that discuss this distinction? If there is some evidence that "Punjabi Kshatriyas" are distinct and different from other "Kshatriyas" then inclusion would be appropriate. But, for example, we don't have an article about Business owners in Punjab, because there isn't any specific reason to single out that group as "special". The key is that you'll need to provide sources that explain this distinction. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:07, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Since the Kshatriya Lineage section lists several categories of regional Kshatriyas, the listing is obviously incomplete as it leaves out a very important regional section, i.e. Punjabi Kshatriyas. Locally they have long and historically been calling themselves 'Khatris often referred as Punjabi Khatris. Any Northern India sunday newspaper typically carries matrimonials listing Punjabi khatris separately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raja4811 (talk • contribs) 23:56, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Much of this article is a mess. That is no reason to make it still more messy. Qwyrxian is correct: find some sources to distinguish your point. AS for what is there, well, it may not be for much longer as I have been tempted to wield my axe widely and vigourously. - Sitush (talk) 00:03, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Maurya, kushwaha and shakya clans are also kshatriyas

according to history and other sources there clans were also a Kshatriyas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.200.179.194 (talk) 05:10, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Please provide reliable sources to support those claims. "History" is too vague. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:33, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Pleaase make changes: Chera, Chola Pandys are belongs to Mukkulathor community who is a Kshatriya of Tamilnadu. Vellalars are higercast agriculturist community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moovendhan (talk • contribs) 21:20, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Thurston, Edgar; K. Rangachari (1909). Castes and Tribes of Southern India Volume I - A and B. Madras: Government Press. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moovendhan (talk • contribs) 21:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Sitush will recall for certain, but I don't think Thurston is considered reliable for this type of information. I may, though, be confusing him with another author. Qwyrxian (talk) 21:30, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

The main problem with Thurston's nine-volume Caste & Tribes series originates from the fact that it is mostly a synopsis of the thoughts recorded by earlier commentators, often from many decades earlier. Thurston generally passes no comment upon those thoughts, although (unlike the much more recent series by the Anthropological Survey of India) he does usually attribute them. It is well-known that British Raj sources have numerous issues relating to amateurism, veracity, social engineering and even scientific racism, not to forget a distinct assumption (often contradictory) of good faith in recording the opinions of various social groups who were hell-bent on manipulating their position in society. This process has been described as Sanskritisation. Furthermore, much of the work of Thurston, H. H. Risley and similar people was intended to supplement the classification methods adopted for the decennial census exercises. Since those methods changed substantially from one decade to the next, and since even those who oversaw them - such as Denzil Ibbetson - admitted that they were massively flawed, the entire scenario becomes a nightmare.

I think that our basis has to be whether or not Thurston is generally cited by modern writers on the subject and, to the best of my knowledge, he is not. A secondary consideration would be if we could use the "X noted that A considered themselves to be ..." formula. However, this formula does not work well in the sphere of Indian castes precisely because of the tendency for self-promotion etc. We need more recent sourced, in my opinion. - Sitush (talk) 23:42, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

BTW, a read of Kushwaha#Classification gives a decent example of the problems here. Disclaimer: I have worked long and hard to keep the pov-pushers in check at that and related articles, mostly connected with the related Kurmi and Yadav communities. These issues have been taken to WP:DRN etc before now and consensus has always been in my favour, to the best of my recollection. - Sitush (talk) 00:03, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Gujjars are Kshatriyas

I added Gujjars to kshatriyas and also added enough references to support the inclusion. I simply want to state that things can't go in good faith if someone is bent over doing something blindly. I request the senior contributors to please go through cited references before removing some content because we can't think of a good source of information if we go on removing from it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Author 91 (talk • contribs) 14:59, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Telling Gujjars are Kshatriyas is the same as telling Indians or English are Kshatriyas. Gujjars is the name of people, not caste. And most of them have converted to Islam.Rajkris (talk) 21:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

see this ref [1]: "Tribal leaders and nobles were accepted as Kshatriyas, the second order of the Hindus, while their followers entered the fourth (Sudra, or cultivating) order to form the basis of tribal castes, such as the Jats, the Gujars, and the Ahirs".Rajkris (talk) 21:39, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

one can mention that Gujjars nobles were accepted as Kshatriyas but writting that whole Gujjars are Kshatriyas or have Kshatriya origin is wrong.Rajkris (talk) 22:03, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I am not going to argue further on this but this attitude of yours would seriously lead to edit wars because being a contributor your responsibility is to check if the content added is valid or not. I am sorry to say this but you shouldn't bring your own invalid or biased logic in order to decide in matters such as these. You ,by authority, have removed the content and someone would definitely add it again and it may continue to God knows till when. If you seriously think that your point that only leaders were the only kshatriyas and followers were not then may I use your words as: "People serving our defense forces belong to kshatriya and everyone else to some other varna." That is not true for sure because it has nothing to do with being a king or follower, it is all about caste of the follower. Even if you say that Gurjar nobles were accepted as kshatriyas, why weren't nobles from other castes? Please go through the history properly once before acting because your actions surely do hurt sentiments.

And about conversion to Islam, I know varnas do not apply in Islam but obviously here we are talking about those religions to whom varna system was applicable at that time.Author 91 (talk) 21:19, 16 November 2012 (UTC)