Talk:Moshe Friedman

Website with information on MAF

Not sure if this is good sources, but it is helpful for some information - https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B0LudVp_bbPyQUg0Z19lak00YTg/edit --MosesYisroel (talk) 18:29, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

We can't use any of those as we have no idea whether they are genuine or who produced them. Anyone can create a PDF and upload it to Google docs. That's why we insist on reliable, third party, secondary sources, particularly for BLPs.--ukexpat (talk) 02:43, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Noteability

Other than being a quack who attended a conference what makes this person worthy of a Wiki page. Should he not be lumped in with Neteuri Karta or others?Tellyuer1 (talk) 23:39, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Edits

Are being made from Belgium where he last lived in favor of him. What makes him an activist? He is a quack. WHy would renouncing what he said be news? It wasnt anywhere and the sources are lacking. This page should be removed or be much shorter.Tellyuer1 (talk) 23:46, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Extensive information has been removed as it has no sources.Tellyuer1 (talk) 00:11, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Should be merged with this page which has a collection of the tiny fringe of anti-religious Jews - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta. Tellyuer1 (talk) 00:19, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Sources

RPoD along with the sources now in the history I shall post further here. This one seems quite good. Darkness Shines (talk) 00:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

• Yt News Darkness Shines (talk) 00:46, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
• CBC
• Another good source Darkness Shines (talk) 01:02, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I have used a couple of them and think the article now has a basic framework covering the major incidents for which he is notable and I have removed the under construction banner. 01:37, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

What is the Vienna Review? And read the main source there now - chief Rabbi of Israel says he has no rabbinic training at all. Read updated stories. 5 minutes will post more.Darkness Shines (talk) 10:25, 31 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs) 00:39, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Legality

In Europe it is not legal to question the occurance of the Holocaust. If these users are in Europe (as an unsigned editor this weekend was) then there is real legal concern. This of course as well as using wiki appropriate sources.Joeyrichardchicago (talk) 10:28, 31 December 2012 (UTC) Facts are being ignored: Question if he is a rabbi. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeyrichardchicago (talk • contribs) 10:23, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

From Rabbi - In Judaism, a rabbi (pron.: /ˈræbaɪ/) is a teacher of Torah. Seems he is by wp definition. You could edit that and then claim he isn't.--Canoe1967 (talk) 10:33, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Canoe, This user is a sockpuppet of Tellyuer1. See [1] for details. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:36, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

++

Unworthy of a Wiki Biography

Moshe Friedman is nothing more than an opportunist who has used his sect's religious and political views on Israel and Zionism to establish relationships within questionable or fringe groups of anti-Semitic or anti-Israel (or both) communities in order to advance his own business deals. He has proven, even among those people, to be less than reliable and even dishonest. At best, his bio is worthy of a notation on the Neturei Karta's wiki page and not his own. He is neither the founder, nor the leader of the anti-Zionist group, and at best is just a sidenote. This article should be incorporated into that page and deleted as its own BLP. MosesYisroel (talk) 19:58, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

See Neturei Karta Talk Page MosesYisroel (talk) 20:28, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Merge discussion

I would agree to merge once the POV tag is removed on the other atricle. Seek consensus there and remove the tag, merge this article to there and leave this as a re-direct. This talk page should stay with the re-direct as per norm.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:04, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

• oppose merge the sources covering the recent, and likely to be increasing, coverage of the legal case in Antwerp has nothing to do Neturei Karta. He has recieved significant coverage about multiple items/events and only one of them is the fact that he is part of Neturei Karta. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:14, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. After re-reading, he does warrant an article on its own. Notability is met. RS and consensus on content still may need work.--Canoe1967 (talk) 03:37, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose for multiple reasons: (1) the Neturei Karta mage has various issues that need to be resolved before we move into that page; and (2) it appears the noteworthyness of Moshe will likely transcend just Neturei Karta. Tiggerjay (talk) 08:30, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per the above. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:16, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Resolved

Can we get back to the project now? Merge will never happen to that article so stop beating dead horses.--Canoe1967 (talk) 10:25, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Media from Israel

File:ProtectionofPrivacyLaw57411981unofficialtranslatio.pdf see Chapter 1, section 2. (11). File:PrivacyOrder81.pdf - Hebrew version. Are we allowed to use sources from Israel that violate this law?--Canoe1967 (talk) 22:25, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia servers and organization are Florida USA- we are covered by US Law, not Israeli. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:16, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Resolved

--Canoe1967 (talk) 03:32, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

It may not be a problem for Wikipedia to use such material, but it could be a problem for an editor in that jurisdiction to upload the material. SpinningSpark 10:36, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Interesting point. With the many articles that have controversial sections from Israeli editors, I wonder if any have or will be dealt with under that law.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:45, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Sources

The Vienna Review is a local rag paper. Why is it deemed a wiki acceptable source?Tellyuer1 (talk) 02:50, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

He is not a member of Neturei Karta: http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739/ Tellyuer1 (talk) 02:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

false story of Divorce filing

Removed as it is not clear. What is compromise? Largest Israeli newspaper says he was divorced: http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739

More reliable than local Vienna rag paper?

Shortly after the conference, stories were published falsely stating that his wife filed for a divorce.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3352392,00.html

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17310/moshe-aryeh-friedman

even sources that are generally reliable sometimes get things wrong and when they do and their stories are inappropriately repeated, we do not include them when we have evidence that such a story is actuall completely basesless We have the wife flatly denying any basis to the story. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:24, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

More Sources

Friedman was even condemned by his peers: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471654,00.html

Not a rabbi or community leader: http://www.nysun.com/foreign/world-leaders-express-outrage-on-iranian/45032/

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3340592,00.html

The Satmar Hassidism Court published an unprecedented statement calling on the public to disassociate themselves from the seven Neturei Karta members who visited Iran to attend the Holocaust denial conference this week.

The Satmar movement printed an official placard, with bold black lettering, publicly denouncing “fanaticism, and those committing insane acts to walk hand in hand with the Arabs.”

The Sun is a tabloid and not a reliable source for anything remotely controversial about a living person. YTnews is the one that gleefully published the false story gloating over the false claim of divorce filing and so utilizing any YTnews for any potentially controversial content about this living person would be a mistake. Try again. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Dialogue on Changes

Rather than being bullies as some have tried to be discuss on talk before changes. You made dozens of changes - and didnt even notice that your very first sentence was factually inaccurate ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN SOURCE. pls dialogue prior to being heavy handed.Tellyuer1 (talk) 03:31, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Tellyuer, rather than bullying your changes, many of which were defamatory, please discuss them. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Stop these games. This is the Holocaust we are discussing. Read your source in #1 - your facts dont even line up to your sources. WHere does it say in your source for #1 he is a rabbi? Facts not fiction. Tellyuer1 (talk) 03:49, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Please discuss your proposed changes and get consensus before making them or you will be blocked. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:52, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Give me a break read the above. Discussed every change. Go through them above.

He isnt a rabbi and your sources show it. Read #1 source you have fool. Rabbinical court articles are above. So are divorce.Tellyuer1 (talk) 03:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Divorce should be removed as isnt clear. Largest Israeli newspaper says he was divorced: http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739

The Vienna Review is a local rag paper. Why is it deemed a wiki acceptable source?remove that entire section sourced to it.

He is not a member of Neturei Karta remove: http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739/ Tellyuer1 (talk) 02:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3352392,00.html

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17310/moshe-aryeh-friedman

Friedman was even condemned by his peers: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471654,00.html

Not a rabbi or community leader: http://www.nysun.com/foreign/world-leaders-express-outrage-on-iranian/45032/

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3340592,00.html

The Satmar Hassidism Court published an unprecedented statement calling on the public to disassociate themselves from the seven Neturei Karta members who visited Iran to attend the Holocaust denial conference this week.

The Satmar movement printed an official placard, with bold black lettering, publicly denouncing “fanaticism, and those committing insane acts to walk hand in hand with the Arabs.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs) 03:58, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

CHANGES Remove Rabbi. Remove Neturei Karta sect. Source #1 doesnt even support. He denied the Holocuast with my Haaretz source. Add that in lead. Divorce did happen. Source #4 not wiki worthy. Never lead community and has been excommunicated. add that.

Discussed it all anobe. You didnt.Tellyuer1 (talk) 04:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Every change has more than 1 major source

Shabazz claims libel when in fact every article has more than 1 source and his sources dont even say what he claims they say. all my changes shld be accepted immeidately.Tellyuer1 (talk) 04:03, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

The volume of proposed changes is making it hard to sort through. For instance, you mention a "Haaretz source", but none of the works appear to be named Haaretz. I do agree that the claims in the lede about his rabbi status aren't validated by the cited source, though I'm not yet sure what to do with the lede. —C.Fred (talk) 04:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

First of all, your preferred version of the lead sentence uses the word "extremist", which is a severe neutrality violation. Aside from that, I'm not sure what was wrong, but it seems that Ynetnews was not considered a reliable source by some editors. I can't say why, but try to find other sources for the same material and see what happens. -- YPNYPN ✡ 04:13, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

So remove the word extremist, and put the rest (although he who stands with KKK and Ahmenijad is extreme. But not important. Haaretz source here - http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 All of my changes had multiple sources. and Shabazz's are factually wrong. Ynet hasnt been challenged is largest newspaper in Israel?Tellyuer1 (talk) 04:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

How about this version with the sources I had on this version

Moshe Aryeh Friedman is an Anti-Zionist protester who has questioned whether the Holocaust occured stating the Holocaust was a "successful fiction." [1] He stated "Politically and historically, the land of Palestine doesn't belong to the Jews and should be returned to Palestinians."[2] [3].

Rabbi Yona Metzger, the Chief Rabbi of the State of Israel has stated that Friedman is not qualified as a Rabbi and urged Friedman be barred entrance to any synagogue worldwide. .[1] A Hasidic court called upon the public to disassociate themselves with Friedman and his peers and said "What they did there is a simple crime against humanity.”[3] The declaration stated that these people “dared attend a special conference of the nations of the world that despise Israel (may the names of the evil rot), deny the Holocaust, and deny and belittle the immensity of the evil and murder of those killed for sanctifying the lord; they desecrated the name of the heavens.” [4]

In 2006, Friedman participated in the controversial International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust with many statements questioning the Holocaust, and scope of the Holocaust. [4] [5] He believes that the figure of 6 million deaths during The Holocaust is from a prophecy made before World War II.[3] Following the event, every other Jewish attendee of the conference apologized for their behavior, except Friedman who returned to hug and kiss Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad again a few months after the conference. [6] The Chief Rabbi of Israel, Yona Metzger called for Jews to excommunicate Friedman and all members of Neturei Karta.[2] As a result of his participation, his children were expelled from the Talmud-Torah school they were attending in Austria where the family lived.[7]

He claimed to lead an Orthodox community in Austria,[7] but within the Jewish community, he was described as "a "kook" and an extremist who represents only himself" according to Austria's established Jewish community. [8] [9] [10] he moved to Antwerp. In 2012, while living in Antwerp, he went to court and won a case that ordered a Jewish school for girls to admit his two sons or face heavy fines.[11]

The largest Jewish newspaper in the UK, The Jewish Chronicle reported that there is a ruling in Jewish religious court worldwide to not permit Friedman's children into any Jewish schools. [12] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs) 04:24, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

No, that is just one big hit piece. I think it should in fact be removed per BLP but shall wait for others to comment. Darkness Shines (talk) 12:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Maybe we should say Ahminejad wants peace and Assad is a freedom fighter? Yes he was a Jew who was excommunicated for questioning the Holocaust. Haartez is a left wing paper the largest in Israel. They attack him. So does Yediot the largest paper in Israel. So does The Jewish Chronicle, largest Jewish paper in London. Yes Friedman is a bad guy and the piece should say so. Dont delete without commenting. Tellyuer1 (talk) 13:42, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposed Revision With Sources

Moshe Aryeh Friedman is an Anti-Zionist protester who has questioned whether the Holocaust occured stating the Holocaust was "successful fiction." [1] He stated "Politically and historically, the land of Palestine doesn't belong to the Jews and should be returned to Palestinians."[2] [3].

Rabbi Yona Metzger, the Chief Rabbi of the State of Israel has stated that Friedman is not qualified as a Rabbi and urged Friedman be barred entrance to synagogues worldwide. [1] The largest Jewish religious court in the world court called upon the public to disassociate themselves with Friedman and his peers and said "What they did there is a simple crime against humanity.”[3] The declaration stated that these people “dared attend a special conference of the nations of the world that despise Israel (may the names of the evil rot), deny the Holocaust, and deny and belittle the immensity of the evil and murder of those killed for sanctifying the lord; they desecrated the name of the heavens.” [4]

In 2006, Friedman participated in the controversial International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust and made statements questioning the Holocaust, and scope of the Holocaust. [4] [5] He believes that the figure of 6 million deaths during The Holocaust is from a prophecy made before World War II.[3] Following the event, every other Jewish attendee of the conference apologized for their behavior, except Friedman who returned to hug and kiss Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad again a few months after the conference. [6] The Chief Rabbi of Israel, Yona Metzger called for Jews to excommunicate Friedman and all members of Neturei Karta.[2] As a result of his participation, his children were expelled from the Talmud-Torah school they were attending in Austria where the family lived.[7]

He claimed to lead an Orthodox community in Austria,[7] but within the Jewish community, he was described as "a "kook" and an extremist who represents only himself" according to Austria's established Jewish community. [8] [9] [10] he moved to Antwerp. In 2012, while living in Antwerp, he went to court and won a case that ordered a Jewish school for girls to admit his two sons or face heavy fines.[11]

The largest Jewish newspaper in the UK, The Jewish Chronicle reported that there is a ruling in Jewish religious court worldwide to not permit Friedman's children into any Jewish schools. [12]

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305

2.^ a b c Boycott Jews who attended Iran conference, top rabbi urges, CBC, December 14, 2006.
3.^ a b Robert Tait (11 December 2006). "Holocaust deniers gather in Iran for 'scientific' conference". The Guardian. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
4.^ http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305
5.^ Fathi, Nazila. "Israel Fading, Iran's Leader Tells Deniers Of Holocaust", The New York Times, December 13, 2006. Accessed February 27, 2008.
6.^ http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471654,00.html
7.^ a b Anna Claessen (March 7, 2007). "Rabbi Friedman’s Complaint". The Vienna Review. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
8.^ http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305
9.^ http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739/
10.^ http://www.nysun.com/foreign/world-leaders-express-outrage-on-iranian/45032/
11.^ JTA (December 29th, 2012). "Antwerp Jewish Girls School Forced to Admit Holocaust Denier’s Boys or Pay Fine". Jewish Press. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
12.^ http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/96368/school-told-admit-sons-neturei-rabbi  

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs) 13:44, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Discussion on above?

Tellyuer1 has proposed the above as a rewrite of the article. Are there any objections to the above text? If so, please state them here—or state your endorsement of the above text. I'm trying to gauge whether there is support for, opposition to, or just indifference about the change; having all the comments about this revision in this section will make that easier. —C.Fred (talk) 17:14, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• do i even need to say it? absolutely fucking no way in hell is this crap even remotely acceptable as meriting any discussion -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose rewrite per RPOD and Malik Shabazz's reasoning about BLP policy below.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 18:09, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
• Attack text, cherry-picked sources, written to inflame. Cannot be used per NPOV Tone. Binksternet (talk) 18:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Your sources you have in the article you people are comfortable with? Some obscure local Vienna paper ? And source #1 calling him a Rabbi - THE ARTICLE DOESNT EVEN MENTION HIM????? WHO SAYS HE IS A RABBI? Tellyuer1 (talk) 18:53, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Tellyuer1, is there a reason why you are YELLING? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:08, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
• Not a fucking hope in hell, pure attack piece. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Definition of BLP

I think there's a misunderstanding of what BLP says. The policy says that any contentious material - positive or negative - must be sourced. Furthermore, these articles should not include minor personal details. Also, they must be carefully NPOV. Everything else is fine and may be included. -- YPNYPN ✡ 14:28, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Everything else is fine and may be included. That's not true at all. From WP:BLP:

Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives: the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.

We need to keep that in mind when writing a biography, especially the biography of a controversial figure. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 14:33, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

And even outside of the additional restrictions of BLP "everything else is fine" is completely inaccurate: WP:NPOV (and its subsection WP:UNDUE) / WP:NOT etc. Content must be encyclopedic and presented in an appropriate manner. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:39, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I think my statement was misinterpreted somewhat. Of course there are things which don't belong in Wikipedia. But just because it's negative doesn't mean it can't be mentioned. -- YPNYPN ✡ 14:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

just being negative doesnt automatically disqualify it. however, the vast majority of content removed from the article and being suggest for inclusion has FAR MORE reasons for not being included than just the fact that it is "negative". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:48, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Such as... -- YPNYPN ✡ 14:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

such as the source that made the false claim that the wife filed for a divorce and then the source that revealed the falseness of that claim through the interviewer speaking to the wife who called the story nonsense. and yet we have an editor who keeps proposing that we include the false story of divorce filing without any mention that the story was false.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:21, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

So it seems there is consensus for my post above as the revision as long as we include "the false story of divorce filing without any mention that the story was false." Removed the divorce because not sure how it was relevant, particularily as different sources seem to say different things. The rest of it is all true and should be used

Not only is everything sourced, its sourced multiple times in multiple different papers (unlike the version currently up). Nothing is tabloid about it. He is the only Jew in the world to deny/question the Holocaust. That is extreme and he has been excommunicated by the Chief Rabbi of Israel. That is what he is noteable for. Nothing scandalous. If you are concerned about "the possibility of harm" then by that logic no one evil or bad would be profiled on Wiki. All of my edits proposals are fair. Focus on the meat of the issue not the side show you are creating. Seems consensus for my edits so will make them in a few hours if no more objections.Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:04, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure the silence could be called consensus (yet). I've put a straightforward request for comments/endorsement/objection to your text in the section above. —C.Fred (talk) 17:15, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Tellyuer1, please calm down. Read WP:There is no deadline.

Friedman is hardly the "only Jew in the world to deny/question the Holocaust". He is not fundamentally "an anti-Zionist protester"; he is a rabbi.

Other parts of your proposal are equally flawed. The Chief Rabbi of Israel, Yona Metzger called for Jews to excommunicate Friedman and all members of Neturei Karta. That doesn't belong in Friedman's biography, it belongs in Neturei Karta. You describe Friedman as a "kook" without attributing the opinion.

If you'd like, I can dissect your proposal sentence by sentence. It remains defamatory and has no place in Wikipedia. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 17:50, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I can call myself the pope, it wouldn’t make me the pope. He is not a Rabbi in anyone’s eyes except his own as has been stated ad naseum.

Yes “kook” is directly from the article – and you have 2 people (including chief rabbi and a rabbi in Brooklyn) saying he represents no one but himself. The chief Rabbi saying he should be excommunicated is indeed relevant for Friedman – and your source saying he is a rabbi isnt even in the source you claim it is in. The largest Jewish court in the world excommunicated him. Which other Jew denies the Holocaust ? Even amongst the group who visited Iran, they all apologized except him. He’s an extreme radical and should be identified as such. Your quotes are wrong and inaccurate and sources lacking. Yes we need to come to consensus and you arent offering any compromise. 18:50, 4 January 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs)

Tellyuer1, please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policies such as WP:Neutral point of view (including "Attributing and specifying biased statements") and WP:Verifiability and guidelines such as WP:Words to watch. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:13, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

They are attributed and am familiar with those policies which is why they have multiple sources and are attributed. Why don't we say that a supposed massacre occured at Columbine and say Charles Manson had a group of friends he spent time with? You have sources and this is bordering on Anti-Semetic behavior to continue to push this false sources which dont even say what you claim they say. A Jew who denies the Holocaust and meets the President of Iran is a radical extremist. Any newspaper in the world would say that and thats not a violation of wiki as every paper has said it. The chief rabbi and biggest Jewish court excommunicated him. Thats a story and will go into Wiki. If you'd like to propose a solution pls do but your current insistence to keep the current version wont fly as your sources arent even accurate.Tellyuer1 (talk) 20:18, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

If you were able to choose words which gave a neutral tone then you would not have such a problem here with the proposed text. The sources are not the problem; it is the inflammatory wording. With your word choices and quote selections you are trying to make people get angry, which is against our policy specifying a neutral tone. The word "kook" has no place in this article, for instance. Binksternet (talk) 20:25, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Ok appreciate the reasonable commentary. Hopefully the below is acceptable text. As it seems we are getting close to consensus will revise and start a new section below. If someone has comments pls make then we can get it up. Thanks.

[duplicated text removed; see following section] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs) 22:35, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

With all due respect, Tellyuer1, don't hold your breath. That text looks so close to your last proposal that I'm expecting there will still be staunch opposition to it. —C.Fred (talk) 23:08, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Revised Proposed Text for Moshe Friedman

Moshe Aryeh Friedman is a Jewish Anti-Zionist who has questioned whether the Holocaust occurred, stating that the Holocaust was "successful fiction." [1] Friedman has said "Politically and historically, the land of Palestine doesn't belong to the Jews and should be returned to Palestinians."[2] [3] Rabbi Yona Metzger, the Chief Rabbi of the State of Israel has stated that Friedman is not qualified as a Rabbi and urged Friedman be barred entrance to synagogues worldwide. [1] The largest Jewish religious court in the world court called upon the public to disassociate themselves with Friedman and his peers and said "What they did there is a simple crime against humanity.”[3] The courts declaration stated that these people “dared attend a special conference of the nations of the world that despise Israel (may the names of the evil rot), deny the Holocaust, and deny and belittle the immensity of the evil and murder of those killed for sanctifying the lord; they desecrated the name of the heavens.” [4] In 2006, Friedman participated in the controversial International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust and made statements questioning the Holocaust, and scope of the Holocaust. [4] [5] He believes that the figure of 6 million deaths during The Holocaust is from a prophecy made before World War II.[3] Following the event, every other Jewish attendee of the conference apologized for their behavior, except Friedman who returned to hug and kiss Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad again a few months after the conference. [6] The Chief Rabbi of Israel, Yona Metzger called for Jews to excommunicate Friedman and all members of Neturei Karta.[2] Friedman has claimed to lead an Orthodox community in Austria,[7] but has been described by the established Jewish community of Austria, as well as Brooklyn Rabbis as an extremist who represents only himself" [8] [9] [10] Friedman’s children were expelled from the Talmud-Torah school they were attending in Austria where the family lived.[7] Jewish media in the UK has reported that there is a ruling in Jewish religious court worldwide to not permit Friedman's children into any Jewish schools. [12] In 2012, while living in Antwerp, he went to court and won a case that ordered a Jewish school for girls to admit his two sons or face heavy fines.[11]

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 2.^ a b c Boycott Jews who attended Iran conference, top rabbi urges, CBC, December 14, 2006. 3.^ a b Robert Tait (11 December 2006). "Holocaust deniers gather in Iran for 'scientific' conference". The Guardian. Retrieved 30 December 2012. 4.^ http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 5.^ Fathi, Nazila. "Israel Fading, Iran's Leader Tells Deniers Of Holocaust", The New York Times, December 13, 2006. Accessed February 27, 2008. 6.^ http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471654,00.html 7.^ a b Anna Claessen (March 7, 2007). "Rabbi Friedman’s Complaint". The Vienna Review. Retrieved 30 December 2012. 8.^ http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 9.^ http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739/ 10.^ http://www.nysun.com/foreign/world-leaders-express-outrage-on-iranian/45032/ 11.^ JTA (December 29th, 2012). "Antwerp Jewish Girls School Forced to Admit Holocaust Denier’s Boys or Pay Fine". Jewish Press. Retrieved 30 December 2012. 12.^ http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/96368/school-told-admit-sons-neturei-rabbi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs) 22:35, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Per WP:BLP there is very little that is salvageable - see the recent edit trimming out everything that is disputed. Is he an anti-Zionist? Being in favor of giving Israel to the Palestinians does not make someone an anti-Zionist. As to whether he is a Rabbi or not is another question. I think if you asked him he would say he is, and there appear to be reliable sources calling him one. Basically there are always people who say bad things about someone, for example using swear words, it simply is not notable, unless they are a politician running for office. The press can quote exactly what any politician running for office says. But we need to find it in a Reliable Source. Apteva (talk) 06:19, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
  • BLP does not mean that one cannot say bad things about people. There are many sources on him being against the Jews from the largest Jewish religious court, to chief rabbi of Israel to no school in Europe taking him. How can none of that be relevant but an obscure vienna paper an accetped source?Tellyuer1 (talk) 14:07, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Sources Matter & BLP Clarification

I can call myself the pope it doesnt make me the pope. This man is not a rabbi and there is clearly disagreement if he is. Your opening lead doesnt have a source. How can you maintain it? What makes him noteable you wont allow on his page claiming (wrongly) BLP. So why does he have a wiki page bc he's a rabbi who attended a conference? So What?Tellyuer1 (talk) 14:33, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I thought what made him notable is his attendance at the conference and the subsequent backlash. That is covered in the article, even if it's not summarized in the intro. —C.Fred (talk) 14:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Can editors include any reliable sources here so others can review them and help with editing this article accordingly? Thank you, --Malerooster (talk) 14:46, 5 January 2013 (UTC)ps, I actually see a few above, so thats a start I guess. --Malerooster (talk) 14:46, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources, and as I understand it BLP doesnt say cant make anything negative part of story. He's noteable bc attended holocaust denial conf so call the conference what it is and he who he is extremist.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471654,00.html http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739/ http://www.nysun.com/foreign/world-leaders-express-outrage-on-iranian/45032/ http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/96368/school-told-admit-sons-neturei-rabbi Tellyuer1 (talk) 15:05, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Three Specific Proposals

1: lead says he is a "rabbi from New York." Says WHO ? There are clearly sources saying he isnt a rabbi. Shouldnt both sides be presented? 2: At end, within discussion about kids school - This source: http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/96368/school-told-admit-sons-neturei-rabbi - Says: "Afterwards, he was treated as persona non grata by the Jewish community in his then home city of Vienna. His children were effectively barred from Jewish schools there. The Friedmans reportedly moved to Antwerp in 2012." So why not say schools had barred him previously ? It doesnt make sense to include info on suit. Why did he have to sue ? Doesnt make sense without context. 3: Holocaust statements. He did deny the Holocaust here - http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 - why arent the statements calling Holocaust false included ? This article has whitewashed the reason Friedman is noteable.Am very emotional about the Holocaust and it should be factual.Tellyuer1 (talk) 16:51, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

In 2006, he participated in the controversial International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust, with his position that "I am not a denier of the Holocaust, but I think it is legitimate to cast doubt on some statistics."[1] He believes that the figure of 6 million deaths during The Holocaust is from a prophecy made before World War II; and that the actual figure is closer to one million deaths.[2] His participation led the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel, Yona Metzger, to call for Jews to shun Friedman and all members of Neturei Karta.[3] As a result of his participation, his children were expelled from the Talmud-Torah school they were attending in Austria where the family lived.[4]

After leading an Orthodox community in Austria,[4] he moved to Antwerp. In 2012, while living in Antwerp, he went to court and won a case that ordered a Jewish school for girls to admit his two sons or face heavy fines.[5] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs)

Small irony: your first point is that no sources call him a rabbi. Yet the first source you cite in your second point refers to him as "a rabbi from the extremist Neturei Karta sect."[2] —C.Fred (talk) 17:00, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for not being clear. He calls himself a rabbi and so does some (mistaken) media - he isnt. In the lead he's called a rabbi without a source. if he's called a rabbi there should also be something which says he isnt thats all. because its in dispute.

Also, as with much about this Friedman there are many differing details. Current draft says he moved - but it doesnt say to NY. he was sued when living in NY and thats also relevant. Also should his Ahmenijad friendship be included?Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:06, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/jad_pal_rabbi_deadbeat_pIkRzNIPYkJiUvGMMr6kOO

The sources do not say his children were expelled after a Jewish court decreed it, I have had enough of your POV pushing and BLP vios. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:08, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The sources DO SAY NO SCHOOL would take them. Both of them.

(edit conflict) Actually, the New York Post doesn't say he lived in the apartments, just that he rented them. Friedman does claim in a quote that he lived in them, but the paper never states that he lived there. —C.Fred (talk) 17:09, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

There are 2 supporting articles saying they moved from NY. Not Antwerp. Largest Israeli paper and NY Post more reliable than Vienna local rag?Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:23, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

If we weren't so busy cleaning up your three-revert rule violations, we'd have more time to catch the sources and pick up on that. —C.Fred (talk) 17:25, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

have been waiting many many days and Malik and Darkness Shines keep adding blogs and obscure papers. Am happy to wait on more edits as long as they do also. Review my sources and proof. Vienna Review is some obscure paper. NY Post and largest Israeli papers are pretty clear. Friedman is noteable bc hes done something very radical. that isnt a violation of BLP. Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:28, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

my language and sources are all clear havent even come close to violating 3RR rule when I introduce new sources. Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You are on nine reverts and need to be indefinitely blocked, this on top of your sockpuppetry is enough.. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:36, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

NY Post Lawsuit

TheRedPenOfDoom wrote "this is just a filing of a suit that may have no merit" - absolutely inaccurate. It is a judgement which was made, and Friedman lost. Wasnt a filing. Was a decision. Shows they moved to NY and then to Antwerp. But that ruling in court must stay and is relevant. NY post is a major paper (certainly more than Vienna Review?) Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:40, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

"he must cough up $17,050 in back rent or face eviction, Judge Bruce Scheckowitz ruled in housing court last week." So clearly its not a filing of a suit and should be added. Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

It would help if it were reported in another paper. See the New York Post article for concerns about the credibility of the Post—concerns which TRPoD also raised. —C.Fred (talk) 17:48, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The source for him leading a community is "The Vienna Review" a monthly newsletter. A service of the "Open Society Institute" should not be a wiki source and surely is less reliable than NY Post. Shouldnt that about him leading a community be removed. And you have original documents here showing he was evicted: http://rabbimoshefriedman.com/

NY Post is one of largest papers in America. And surely if they arent reliable neither is Vienna Review. Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:56, 5 January 2013 (UTC)