Talk:Sonderkommando

Non-Sequiter?

The aside "(Dr. Miklos Nyiszli noted with irony the fact that the medicines arriving were labeled in various languages because Jewish transports were coming from every part of Europe.)" in the 'Work and Death" section seems to be a non-sequiter in that it is not obvious how it relates to the surrounding text. Perhaps the relationship could be clarified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.23.24 (talk) 05:10, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I came in to the talk page with the intention of saying this exact same thing. It seems - to me - like maybe this was just an editing error. The statement is incredibly unclear in its current placement. I assume it has been taken from Auschwitz : A Doctor's Eyewitness Account, but without a citation, it needs to be treated as a random piece of information. I think this was probably some kind of editing error - maybe it was meant to be inserted somewhere else and there was just a copy/paste problem. I tried to find a more appropriate place for the comment, but there is just one mention of "medicine" in the entire article and - honestly - I have absolutely NO IDEA what impact a reader is supposed to glean from this sentence without sufficient context clues. I'm removing this confusing aside as I'm not the first to notice it and almost three months have passed since the problem was originally identified by 118.90.23.24 (during which no changes or explanations have been offered.)

That being said...if you are able to relocate this statement to a more appropriate place - PLEASE DO. ocrasaroon (talk) 07:53, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Sobibor

The Jewish Sonderkommando in Sobibor neither lead the revolt nor did they take part in the outbreak on 14 October 1943. The organising secret committee had unsuccessfully tried to contact them in Camp III, the killing site. All the members of the Sonderkommando were shot on 15 October. I think it will be OK to delete the reference to Sobibor. P. Witte 09:45, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

dual usage of term

Sonderkommando were SS units which carried out exterminations, disposed of dead bodies and erased traces of mass murder. Jewish Sonderkommando units were made up of Jewish camp prisoners who were forced to work in the gas chambers and crematoria. One of these units staged an uprising in the Birkenau camp in 1941. Only at Auschwitz-Birkenau was the term used specifically regarding Jewish prisoners who carried out the functions of the gas chambers and crematoria. Other camps, such as Chelmno, the term Sonderkommando was used in relation to the SS gaurds overseeing the gas chambers and crematoria. They were also forces to rape their own kind.

Sonderkommando means "special command". There were many. Here is one that should be included/linked to:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando_Elbe or: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando_Elbe&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=9&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsonderkommando%2Belbe%26hl%3Den

"The Grey Zone"

"The Grey Zone" is the title of a chapter (about the sonderkommando) of Primo Levi's book, The Drowned and the Saved.

GWAR disambiguation

The "See also" link to GWAR points to the heavy metal band Gwar. I think a disambiguation is in order from someone who can explain the other meaning of GWAR that is implied in this article! --Theodore Kloba 19:56, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

We need this info tout suite, I don't want people to think my hometown friends are related to Nazi death camps! Lachatdelarue (talk) 00:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yeah I also don't think the link is appropriate, so I deleted it Jacib 00:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I just found that an anon had added the link to Gwar. A google search shows up nothing relevant when searching for "gwar" and "nazi death camp". I guess this person thought they were being funny. Lachatdelarue (talk) 00:35, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, GWAR have a song named "Sonderkommando" (see here), hence the relevance. I agree with Jacib that it's inappropriate in this context. But in actuality there is an objective link between GWAR and Sonderkommando so I think we should reinstate the link with an explanatory comment. After all, it's not for us to say how appropriate a song is. --altmany 08:17, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks-- I didn't catch that in the Gwar article. It's relevant enough for me now that it's explained. --Theodore Kloba 13:55, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Names of surviving Sonderkommando?

Can you list the surviving member of the sonderkommando? Finally people who can go directly to the mass graves and say "dig here". I thought the day would never come. Thanks. -- posted by User:159.105.80.92 Dario Gabbai Frank Muller

Should attention not be drawn to the fact Jews were involved

I think it would be a decent illustration of the real human tragedy that the Nazis brought about in the camps. Laurence Rees book on Auschwitz may be a good read on someone looking to further their knowledge on the subject. Londo06 11:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Revolt

The revolt in Auschwitz is in Auschwitz: A Doctor's Eyewitness Account. I'd say that's a source, since the other one has no citation. It has two pages of detailed writing about the events but it contradicts what is written here. -Babylon pride (talk) 16:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed on the reference. Also, it should be made clear that it was the 12th Sonderkommado that revolted. Otherwise, the impression given is that Sonderkommando in toto revolted at some point. In fact, no other Sonderkommando "unit" revolted at Auschwitz. This is a serious problem in an article purporting to give an account of Sonderkommandos. Additionally, under the same subheading of "Work and Death" a sentence reads, "They were forced into the position", followed by "and accepted it because it meant a few more days or weeks of life, as well as vastly-better living conditions." This is not an account of facts; it is a value-laden statement. "Forced into" has no meaning. They were to die anyway, so they chose an alternative path to death. As did the 12th Sonderkommando. This, too, is critical to an encyclopedic entry on this topic. This entry is very sloppy.

Why members of the Sonderkommando "accepted" their selection

I do not think it is correct to say that those selected for Sonderkommando duty accepted their roles even in part because the conditions in which they lived were better ("accepted it because it meant . . . vastly-better living conditions. They would sleep in their own barracks, which more than any other in the camp resembled normal human dwellings; various goods such as food, medicines and cigarettes") than conditions elsewhere in Birkenau. Members of the Sonderkommando were selected because they appeared to be in decent health; otherwise, selection was arbitrary and forced. Those selected "accepted," it seems from their own testimony, simply because they had no choice in the matter. Had conditions in the barracks been worse, they would have accepted as well, again, because they had no real options other than to assume their horrific burden. In fact, their duties were the most ghastly in the camps. Even minor disobedience meant severe punishment, including torture and probably death, and, at Auschwitz, in the beginning floggings and beatings were administered as a matter of course. Good sources for the predicament of the men chosen for the Sonderkommando are Filip Muller, Eyewitness Auschwitz and Gideon Greif, We Wept Without Tears. VanDiemen (talk) 23:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, this is incorrect. Those chosen in extermination camps knew that death was imminent in any case. They chose an alternative path to death, that of obeying SS commands as to the conveying of people through the passage to death, and the manipulation of the bodies and possessions afterwards. Even if rejection of this resulted, in every case, in a bullet, it is still a choice. Greif is not as scholarly a source as Gilbert, or, probably, Nyiszli for that matter due to his naked and self condemning autobiography. Read "The Holocaust" by Gilbert or "Auschwitz" by Nyiszli first to assess the claims of Greif. Muller may be correct - for him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.29.39.196 (talk) 10:47, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

What the Holocaust shows is that, given the choice of death or something else, no matter how frightful, 99.9% of people will do the something else. Only saints and heros choose death; and very, very, very few of us are one of those. 86.189.4.185 (talk) 20:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I think there should be something in the article about the moral ambiguity of it all (currently there isn't). What, for example, did other inmates think of the members of the Sonderkommando? - 124.191.144.183 (talk) 10:18, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

"The first task of the new Sonderkommandos would be to dispose of their predecessors' corpses"

Not so, according to Gideon Greif, see footnote 34, p. 357, discussion of seven documented liquidations of Sonderkommando members at Birkenau as well as seven smaller and undocumented liquidations. In most cases, the liquidation took place outside Birkenau or in an area of Birkenau located at some distance from where the Sonderkommando worked. Only in the case of the corpses of the several hundred workers murdered after the uprising of October 1944, it appears, did members of the Sonderkommando dispose of "predecessors' corpses," although, strictly speaking, the corpses were not of their predecessors but of fellow Sonderkommando. VanDiemen (talk) 23:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe, but if all you have is a footnote, I'll take the book by Nyiszli. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.29.39.196 (talk) 10:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Kapos vs. Sonderkommando?

I am a little confused—I always thought the term for people like this was Kapo(s), but that word is only used once on this page, and not defined at that. (I'll create a link to the Wikipedia Kapo page at the one usage.) Perhaps someone who could add the distinction (if there was one) between the two? Historian932 (talk) 02:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Kapos were the heads of each hut, they were not (Jewish/Roma/Homosexual) slave labourers but criminal prisoners serving jail terms. They could be more brutal than the guards. 86.189.4.185 (talk) 20:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

that's not the point. Kapos worked in concentration camps and supervised inmates. Sonderkommandos worked in death camps where there were no inmates - new arrivals were killed in a matter of hours. That's the big difference. Some kapos were in fact Jews tasked with supervising Jewish inmates (the ones who did slave labor, not the ones being gassed). 03:03, 7 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.119.30.87 (talk)

Bone crushing machine

The picture of what is claimed to be a "bone crushing machine" seems to be the same machine depicted on the USHMM site here http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/media_ph.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005279&MediaId=824

The damaged machine shown in the photos is a rotating screen, where gravel or crushed stone was separated according to grain size, a necessary condition for making high quality concrete. The steel sheet contraption on the top is a feeding funnel, into which the raw material was fed from a conveyor belt. Such a rotating screen could be combined with a stone crusher. In that case, the stone crusher would have been much bigger than the screen, and the feeding funnel would have been superfluous. That's why I think the machine was used for treating natural gravel, not for crushed stone. The guys standing next to the damaged machine are wearing civilian clothes and are more likely to be construction workers than members of a sondercommando. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthpremium (talk • contribs) 19:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Length of time as Sonderkommando

The article says that the system of killing sonderkommandos after a few months fell into abeyance at Birkenau where some sonderkommandos managed to survive several years. As fas as I can ascertain Birkenau was only operational for three years at most, so 'several' surely needs to be modified. A source would be very helpful Lockstone (talk) 10:44, 17 December 2009 (UTC) Lockstone

incorrect use of term

"Sonderkommando" is a term used for Sondereinsatzkommando/Spezialeinsatzkommando of the police/military in Germany (like the SEK): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spezialeinsatzkommando , this article describes the Sondereinsatzkommando KZ Auschwitz-Birkenau : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando_KZ_Auschwitz-Birkenau 134.176.202.141 (talk) 02:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Missing infomation or dual-meaning confusion?

From Extermination camp article-

A prisoner Sonderkommando (Special Detachment) effected the most of the processes of extermination; they accompanied the Jews into the gas chamber, and remained with them until the chamber door closed. To psychologically maintain the “calming effect” of the delousing deception, an SS guard stood at the door, as if awaiting the prisoners. To deprive the prisoners of time to grasp the fateful facts of what truly was occurring, the Sonderkommando hurried them to undress and enter the (gas chamber) shower room as quickly as possible; to that effect, they also assisted the aged and the very young in undressing.[27]

To further persuade the prisoners that no harm was forthcoming, the Sonderkommando deceived them with small talk about camp life. Fearing that the delousing “disinfectant” might harm their children, many mothers hid their infants beneath their piled clothes. Camp Commandant Höss reported that the “men of the Special Detachment were particularly on the look-out for this”, and encouraged the women to take their children into the shower room. Likewise, the Sonderkommando comforted older children who might cry “because of the strangeness of being undressed in this fashion”.[28]

Are they talking about the SS officers or the extermination camp prisoners/workers? The Sonderkommando hypertext in the extermination camp article links to this article. If refering to the SS officers, then the link should be removed/changed and this needs to be clarified in the article. If refering to the prisoners/workers, then why the hell is this important information missing from this article?!! If it is, I had no idea that some holocaust prisoners helped perpetrate it against others (and just to buy some time)! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.91.252.125 (talk) 01:41, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is true that Sonderkommando was used for deceiving the victims as well. It is described brilliantly and movingly by Vassily Grossman and by surviving Polish inmate Tadeusz Borowski. But what could Sonderkommando do? Maybe some thought it was a lesser evil - helping others to go to death without agonizing fear if they cannot be saved. At least it was Sonderkommando that oraganized the revolt in October 1944.Oleg-ch (talk) 22:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I removed Magneto from the "See also" section

I know Magneto was listed here because, in the main X-Men storyline, he was forced into duty as a Sonderkommando at Auschwitz. I just wonder where to draw the line. How does including a fictional comic book character, whose Holocaust experience motivated him to instigate genocide against a weaker populace than his, shed any light on this subject? And that's not to mention the fact that such a backstory is pathologically tasteless, if not revolting, ignorant, and offensive. SilverCity 02:44, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. No place for that here. -OberRanks (talk) 16:45, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Henryk Mandelbaum

The caption to Henryk Mandelbaum's photo on this page says:

"Henryk Mandelbaum and an interpreter talk on the ruins of crematoria at Auschwitz II. He was a member of the Auschwitz II Sonderkommandos at the time of the revolt by the Sonderkommandos. He told of how his unit, who did not revolt, were punished by having every third member of the group executed as a lesson."

On his page, it says "Mandelbaum participated in the rebellion of inmates on October 7, 1944, which was put down quickly by the SS.". To me this appears somewhat contradictory, can anyone clarify what actually happened? Was he the only member of his unit that participated? Did others from his unit participate? Did the whole unit participate? 46.208.134.72 (talk) 13:13, 27 February 2012 (UTC)