Talk:Zilla (Godzilla)

Discussion Archived

13/10/2009 Archived the original Talk Page. Getting a little too long.--ACE Spark (talk) 14:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Final Wars and Name - Editing War

Apparently, there seems to be an editing war going on - someone keeps trying to change this page and all references to "American Godzilla", and any and all information regarding it's cameo in Final Wars keeps getting removed. So to the people that keep doing this, come on, this is a discussion page - DISCUSS it. What's with the constant editing war? This Godzilla re-appeared in Final Wars (go on, check it up on youtube, here's the video!, it deserves a mention, even if it's only a line or two. It happened. It's fact.

As for the name, Toho offically named it Zilla. So, there you go. That's it's name. Gino should be briefly mentioned in the article as the name fan's gave it before it's offical naming, but it's offical name should be used overall.

To those that keep editing the page, please discuss your reasoning here. Let's keep it civil. I've stated my opinion. Post yours.
--ACE Spark (talk) 14:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

There is no doubt that the info should be there. However, it appears that the removal is the work of one user, since all the deletions are by IP addresses that can be traced back to AT&T Internet Services (specifically, a range of IP addresses that appear to be reserved for the Irvine, California area). --Jtalledo (talk) 23:22, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Not that I have anything to do with this, but well, I personally find it unfair. Toho didn't create the "American Godzilla", so why do they have the right to "officially rename it"? TriStar Pictures got their rights to use the concept, the name. What THEY call it should be what it IS called, even if Toho was the original creators. It's not their version. Sure, they can do whatever the hell they want with it in their own Godzilla universe and timeline, but that is NOT a part of the TriStar Godzilla universe or timeline. From the '98 movie's "perspective", Final Wars never occurred. Right?

--Swiiman (talk) 05:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I think at the time I was a little annoyed by people trying to change this article and all references into what is basically fannon names. The Article is either about "Godzilla (US)" or "Zilla". Quite frankly, i'm not a Godzilla fan, so I don't really care either way, or what people want to call it. Providing it's not GINO. Gino isn't offical one way or the other. I'm just going with what's sourced. --ACE Spark (talk) 01:15, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Swiiman. Toho doesn't have the authority to officially rename the creature from the film made by TriStar. I doubt TriStar would even consider Final Wars s part of their Godzilla continuity. "Zilla" really was just Toho making a jab at the TriStar version of Godzilla.--24.147.62.26 (talk) 03:10, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I have merchandise from the 1998 film, and it says that the monster belongs to Toho. 75.157.115.154 (talk) 07:36, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Toho can call the CGI critter in their movie Zilla or whatever else they want. They can't welch on having licensed the original name to TriStar. TriStar could, if they produced additional material in which they declared the name as changed. You are just being confusing by calling it something other than what is written on the box. JethroElfman (talk) 02:53, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I went looking for sources that confirm Zilla as Toho's official name. Their site is in Japanese, so I can't tell what's up there. MonsterZero.us, now SciFiJapan.com, doesn't have the editorial up anymore. Most sites use Wikipedia as their source. IMDB references an interview with Kitamura, quoting, "he said that he named the Hollywood version Zilla for his film"[1]. Is there anything substantial out there? This makes "Zilla" something Kitamura came up with as director, rather than as a spokesman for Toho. It also makes it clear he accepted "Zilla" as belonging to Final Wars and not Godzilla (1998). JethroElfman (talk) 03:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

This information is wrong. Toho themselves have stated that Zilla is indeed the American Godzilla and was created as a way to give the fans closure after Roland Emerich took the "God" out of Godzilla. And seeing that TOHO not TriStar OWNS AND LOANED the Godzilla license I believe that gives them all the rights in the world to rename it and put the creators in their place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.110.82 (talk) 16:59, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you JethroElfman. On many sources, sites and information that I can find (including IMDb, Toho Kingdom and the Monster Legacy blog etc.) it appears there never was any real name change, but a global misunderstanding, it actually seems like if Kitamura actually created the name "Zilla" when he created the American Godzilla character that should be in his Final Wars film, but he just didn't want his American Godzilla to bear the same name so obviously he created a new name for his creature so that it would please dissatisfied fans, although the creation of Zilla caused many fans to misinterpret Zilla as an actual new name for the American Godzilla species and as either the actual character Godzilla (which was killed by the way) from the 1998 Godzilla film or Godzilla Junior from Godzilla: The Series. Even if this name change myth was true, it would have been shown more clearly, at least in later movie re-releases and DVD/Blu-ray copyright disclaimers which are still mentioning "Godzilla" instead of "Zilla", but it appears the official statements are actually that Godzilla (1998), Godzilla Junior (1998-2000) and Zilla (2004) are completely different characters based upon the same design and species, and that Zilla is an exclusive Japanese creature that is also exclusive to the Japanese Godzilla: Final Wars. End of story. TurokSwe (talk) 10:16, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Should this page be merged with Godzilla?

The film Godzilla is about Zilla so Zilla is also known as Godzilla and could rightfully be covered on that page. Opinions? 89.100.194.115 (talk) 21:21, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I think it is worth mentioning Zilla in the main Godzilla page but still worth it to have a seperate article. --Blackbox77 (talk) 03:52, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

There's really no reason to merge these articles. The Godzilla articles is long enough as it is and Toho (the company which created Godzilla) has shown they draw a distiction between this monster and Godzilla, both in naming him differently and in having him appear in the same film as Godzilla. I think instead of merging this with Godzilla a page cover ALL the Toho companies monsters who do not require their own pages should be made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.234.146.46 (talk) 07:16, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Zilla article, to me, looks big enough to stay seperate from Godzilla. --Andromedabluesphere440 (talk) 18:44, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

why should we merge it? there both big enough articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.37.99 (talk) 20:12, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

As of 2004, they have been considered separate entities, both by Toho and the fanbase. The only reason there should be a merger if individual notability was not established, and I can see there is no reception section but if anyone could take over the Zilla article, reception would be established in a snap. Merger is definitely unessecary. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 19:47, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Zilla is a different character, and Toho intentionally wanted to separate Godzilla from Zilla which is why he renamed the Zilla character to what it is. If we mention Zilla on the Godzilla article, then we would have to mention all the other Kaizu on there too. ScienceApe (talk) 22:07, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

No to merge. Just as Clover gets its own article, this incarnation of Godzilla can have its own, being so distinctive from the rubber-suit version. For that matter, I much prefer the title "American Godzilla", with a note about the appearance in Final Wars. They don't get to change the character's name 10 years later. The creature in the 1998 movie was obviously called Godzilla. It's eponymous! You don't get better than that for being the definitive name. It's not like the term Xenomorph used by fans for the Alien; it's spelled out for you on the screen and on the cover of the box. A look-alike or parody was used in Final Wars, and called Zilla for that appearance, without changing what it was called in its original appearance. JethroElfman (talk) 06:10, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Definitely don't merge them. Within the 1998 Godzilla movie, it's clear it is a different creature. In two following Toho films, it was made clear that while they may share a continuity, they are different creatures.El Gonz (talk) 18:13, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Zilla is its own creature, Toho even said that it has little relation to Godzilla.

No, ridiculous idea, especially since every other Godzilla monster has their own page, and Zilla is officially a separate creature in Godzilla canon. Yonskii (talk) 23:47, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

The American Godzilla certainly deserves to be mentioned on the Godzilla page because of the fact that the American Godzilla is another kind of Godzilla, because it was a remake of the Godzilla creature, and because it is the American Godzilla. Zilla is just another character, Zilla is not the species, the species is American Godzilla. The species includes the characters/monsters Godzilla (1998), Baby Godzilla (1998), Godzilla Junior (1998-2000), Cyber-Godzilla (1998-2000), and Zilla (2004), and they're all American Godzillas (despite that the creature Zilla (2004) is Japanese). In short, true Godzillas. TurokSwe (talk) 16:56, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Pro-Toho bias

Please use this as a place to corral all discussions of bias in this article so that the template can be removed promptly. Universaladdress (talk) 12:01, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. BDD and Andrewa both have valid concerns about the article, but they're outside the scope of RM and need to be addressed elsewhere. Jenks24 (talk) 14:34, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

---

Zilla → American Godzilla – This page is obviously mostly about the fictional American Godzilla species, where the characters Godzilla (1998), Baby Godzilla (1998), Godzilla Junior (1998-2000), Cyber-Godzilla (1998-2000), and Zilla (2004) belongs, and because of the fact that Zilla (2004) is just another character/monster within the American Godzilla species I don't think that "Zilla" is an appropriate name for this page, since the page seems to cover the whole American Godzilla species with all characters within it and not just Zilla (2004). The current name was obviously based upon the famous name change myth, but no sources indicate that there ever was a name change for the species or the other characters. It actually appears that Ryuhei Kitamura named his creature Zilla exclusively for the 2004 film "Godzilla: Final Wars" and that Zilla's appearance in the film caused a huge misintepretation and misunderstanding among fans that actually falsely believed the American Godzilla to have been renamed Zilla, while Zilla was actually just another character within the American Godzilla species. TurokSwe (talk) 16:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

• Weak support Yeah, I guess that accurately describes what's going on here, but separating this from Godzilla seems like pedantic WP:FANCRUFT. Stay tuned for my article on Daniel Craig James Bond, where I explain how the James Bond portrayed by Daniel Craig is a distinct character because he looks different. :/ --BDD (talk) 17:46, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
  • The name change was a widely spread myth, and by myth it means it's not real. There are no official statements that Zilla is the new name for the American Godzilla species and its characters, there are however some statements that Zilla is just a different character with its own exclusive name. This page still covers the whole American Godzilla species and therefore "Zilla" is not an appropriate name. If we're naming this page after the characters within the species rather than the actual species name (American Godzilla) then we could aswell name this page Godzilla, Godzilla Junior, Baby Godzilla, or why not Cyber-Godzilla? Just because a special amount of people are familiar with the name "Zilla" doesn't mean we have to name the page "Zilla". The page should be named after what it describes, and it describes the American Godzilla species, and not just one of all its characters. I honestly don't see how this is a matter of "weak support". Again, there are no official statements that "Zilla" is the name of this fictional species, and the best and most famous sources tells that "Zilla" is not the name of the species. There are even people who don't know about the name change myth and still stay to the idea that the American Godzilla is the real name for the species. "American Godzilla" is the best title for this page. TurokSwe (talk) 20:30, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

It's weak because I'm skeptical that this article should even exist, not that I disagree with your reasoning. To people who aren't fans of the series, such as me, the "American Gozilla" from the Emmerich film was simply a modern interpretation of the original character. --BDD (talk) 20:14, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I understand, but since there are articles on other Godzilla-monsters why not having this one exist? It's true that the American Godzilla was a modern interpretation, but it is also in one way a different monster, or at least according to some, but I think I understand your point. But even if this article shouldn't exist, at least it doesn't deserve to be called Zilla instead of American Godzilla. TurokSwe (talk) 20:30, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: In terms of WP:AT there seems no case either way above. Suggest also urgent work on the lead, it's currently [2] one over-long paragraph containing some not very encyclopedic and even not very English phrasing. Multiple issues with the article as flagged but IMO the lead is a good place to start. Andrewa (talk) 20:23, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Current merge discussion (March 2013)

It seems the consensus has definitely shifted from the obsolete 2010 merge discussion above on this page. Interesting development - a strong opinion in the above rename discussion seemed to be that the page should be merged, not renamed, although this was understandably not an option under that discussion. Strong opinion seems to be that the existence of this page is WP:FANCRUFT (as indicated by the bizarre intro text that doesn't really qualify as encyclopedic and instead serves as an apologia for the page's existence) and that it should be merged with Godzilla. Discussion above also notes that BDD and Andrewa's concerns need a place to be aired, so this is it. ToFeignClef (talk) 01:50, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

• I think the page shouldn't be merged, because the American Godzilla is neither officially recognized by Toho or the greater majority of the fanbase as being Godzilla in any way, other than bearing the name. You can ask millions of Godzilla and Zilla fans, and they would at least admit that the American Godzilla and Godzilla are different things.
  Merging this page with Godzilla would be excactly like merging Final Fantasy III with Final Fantasy VI; the American version is not the japanese version, not officially in the name or the design. If possible, the most that can be done would just be mentioning Godzilla 1998 in the Godzilla article, but not claiming that they are in fact, the same being.
  (Check the Gino thread down below for strong facts regarding Zilla and the 'Zilla-name change misconception' misconception. I meant to type misconception twice, because that is what it is. 493Titanollante (talk) 23:26, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Gino

It says in this article that GINO is Godzilla, and it is not at all (and I've got very strong facts to prove it). Here are some pictures from the GMK movie to prove that this is not officially recognized as Godzilla by Toho. Click the links to see the pictures.

[3] [4] [5]

You can buy the DVD of Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters All-Out Attack, or just look for this bit on YouTube and you can see these people say that this is not Godzilla. Also, after Sony's rights to Godzilla expired in 2003, the creature couldn't be left in the air and Toho assumed the creature's copy-rights. The reason the 2006 DVD re-release still says "GODZILLA used with permission" etc., is because of the very obvious fact: They named the film, "GODZILLA". When TriStar 'took advantage by re-releasing GODZILLA', they just took advantage, and they didn't alter anything in the film whatsoever-- not the Title of the movie, not the name of the creature, not the copyrights on the back, nothing was changed except just moving the GODZILLA movie from VHS to DVD.

So, these are some very good and strong points I'm giving. You may still call this thing, which is officially known as ZILLA, American Godzilla, but the whole 'misconception' thing about the Zilla-Name Change is actually true, and it was proven in Final Wars. Just look at these creatures in Final Wars and in the movie. Do they look any different from each other?

[6] [7]

I didn't think so either. Not to mention that the 1998 GODZILLA film and Godzilla: Final Wars do not take place in the same timeline and/or Universe, so it could very so be the 1998 creature without any plotholes whatsoever. At least Zilla Jr (from Godzilla: The Series) had some differences from his father, like actually being durable and having a beam, as well as being a different color; these two look exactly alike, except the 2004 Zilla is CGI of lesser quality. Also, it cannot be stated that Zilla is 'more destructive' or 'eats humans' or anything, because Zilla was being mind-controlled by the Xiliens, which would obviously mean it would have a different personality, just like the other Final Wars kaiju like Rodan, Anguirus, and King Caesar, who are known to be defenders of Earth rather than the monsters who cause destruction.

All this means is that the 'Zilla Name-Change Misconception' is a misconception itself, with millions of Godzilla and Zilla fans knowing the truth that Toho changed the creature's name to Zilla. I hope this is enough evidence from Toho and TriStar themselves that Zilla is, as a matter of fact, not Godzilla in any way.

PS: Isn't it ironic that 'The American Godzilla' is a French Polynesian Iguana? 493Titanollante (talk) 19:41, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Here is a link to a video that uses my points to argue that Toho officially renamed the 1998 creature to Zilla. Everyone should check it out. 493Titanollante (talk) 03:25, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Why is it being changed to American Godzilla?

First off, American Godzilla isn't an official character. Secondly, the character has been copyrighted as Zilla. It used to be copyrighted as Godzilla but Toho has changed his name ala MOUGERA.--KPLives! (talk) 01:25, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Needs to be moved back to Zilla

The claims that the "Zilla" name is unofficial or that it applies only to the Final Wars incarnation are blatantly false. The NAME and DESIGN have been TRADEMARKED by Toho; check the corporate logo on the back of the Godzilla: Final Wars DVD. This is what is known as a retcon. Its name is retroactively (and more important, LEGALLY) "Zilla" and it's NOT this article's place to dispute that, for this would be Original Research and against wikipedia's rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.50.43.174 (talk) 15:12, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I second this motion, it's been officially and legally copyrighted as Zilla by Toho, the above arguments by 493Titanollante are MORE than sufficient enough. And all the edits by TurokSwe are nothing but disruptive and bias lies, and he has NOT learned his lesson about the edit war policy, as he has gone and went RIGHT back to what he was doing and changed this page back to his biased version! Please, someone from the Administration REALLY should ban him! 66.26.66.25 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:54, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Furthermore, the name dispute doesn't really matter. "Zilla" is a simple and effective way of differentiating the two creatures, and with a new Hollywood-produced film in the makings, "American Godzilla" could only cause further confusion. And I know that a common comparison would be between Mothra and Mothra Leo, or Mechagodzilla and Kiryu, but they were both still in movies entitled "Mothra", "Mothra 2", "Mothra 3," and "Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla" and "Godzilla x Mechagodzilla"; Not "Mothra Leo," "Mothra Leo 2", "Mothra Leo 3" or "Godzilla x Kiryu." What the creatures are called isn't particularly important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.160.210.161 (talk) 04:02, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Whether or not the name "Zilla" is a matter of a name change or not is a matter of opinion and speculations relly [the real name for American Godzilla], since we only have speculations and asumptions to go on until an official statement is made confirming a[movies and icons and a lot of evidence of the] name change. Look at my altered version, it is not biased. The current version of the article does not claim that the name change is true but niether that it is not true. Stop being so ignorant and please try to see this [is very truthful and correct]. I'm trying to [not] contribute to the neautrality of this article, so should you, but that cannot happen as long as you stand on just one side (being biased) and thereby including opinions [a neutral playing field and see everything how it really is]. The article cannot use assumptions and speculations but it needs to be verified [yeah, just like me, i use blog sites as a reliable source, and the reliable source is a photo from a VCR, but the author and I believe it's from a 2006 DVD. Of course, we like lying to everyone], and as long as a name change cannot be verified the article should not be based on a name change claim [is real (which I and certain other Zilla fanboys on YouTube and DeviantART don't want to accept]. A monster icon does not confirm a name change, it can['t] be interpreted in different ways, therefore people assume that this measn one thing when it could also mean another thing [wow, I'm a really confused middle-schooler, I use monster icons from a DVD re-release as proof that Zilla's name is actually "Godzilla", yet I say that a monster icon from Godzilla's parent studio is up to interpretation. God I'm a genius!]. You cannot use that as evidence, what you need is conclusive and reliable evidence [like personal blog sites which use pictures from a VCR release of GODZILLA and pass it off as a 2006 DVD re-release of GODZILLA. See, isn't that marvelous and reliable?], like an official statement from a spokesman of Toho confirming a name change [or an official statement from TriStar DISproving the name change :)]. We cannot go on fan-assumptions, speculations and opinions here, it doesn't matter if the article contradicts your view and opinion/belief using the very clear evidence that we have from the movies from Toho, such as the new monster icon, the extreme similarities with 2004 Zilla and 1998 Zilla, the statement from GMK, all the random variables in Godzilla: Final Wars, the fact that TriStar didn't give Toho the 3D model of Zilla, etc. etc. etc.... there's so much evidence against my fan-beliefs, but I just srug them off, get into endless arguments, call the truthful people names like "butt-hurt" and "liars" and say things like "grow up" even though if you check my FaceBook, you can clearly see that I'm a middle-schooler (don't believe me about me saying that stuff? Scroll down the comments of videos like "Godzillathon 23", "Gareth Edwards from the set of Godzilla", "American Godzilla is NOT ZILLA", etc....) I'm a very hateful person, and I just disguise this all in my Wikia and DeviantART account! I created my own "Gojira" Wiki, so I can take down Wikizilla, I created my own, biased Wiki "The American Godzilla Wiki" in which I've loured Zilla fans, turning them into fantrolls like me every second, I have multiple sockpuppet accounts such as "Niko Tatopolous" and "Nicholas09862" on YouTube, I got myself to be very hated on the internet, gaining countless enemies, I've got myself a hater whose account is specifically directed toward hating me, which I call very childish, and whose facts I have shunned, called fan-beliefs, thumbed down, and flagged for spam! I've gotten into arguments with GZilla9000, GodzillaGamera2012, Koopa Meltdown, I called GORIZARD a disruptive editor and got him unrightfully blocked for life! I've blocked every single person I mentioned, and it's because I myself am a butt-hurt swede (no, really, I'm from Sweden) who is obsessed with an American re-imagining of a giant fictional lizard!]. The wikipedia article is based on conclusive and reliable evidence and sources [lies I made up. Have you checked my edits on dinosaur pages? They're so true they got me blocked for using the 3-revert-rule!]'. You need to understand this. Wikipedia is about facts, not assumptions [like the ones I make, ignoring the facts], not even if the facts might be incorrect, it all has to be verified [again, it's ironic how I use a personal, lying blog website which uses a VCR monster Icon to confirm my claim of a 2006 DVD, which according to Toho Kingdom, doesn't even have a monster Icon, saying Zilla still being called Godzilla! I'm the most ironic person in the world, am I right? Well, be sure to go to my channel on YouTube. I'm called TurokSwe there, too. Oh, and watch all the videos on my sock-puppet accounts. Their dislikes are greater than their likes, for some odd reason]. TurokSwe (talk) 11:11, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

it can be interpreted in different ways

Nonsense. There's nothing up to interpretation. The logo has the character's name and design on it, both accompanied by a trademark.

The various Toho monsters have gone by many names over the years, but Toho's official monster logos are what we've always used here to determine what the characters' names are officially. This is why "King Shisa" was moved to King Caesar and "Kamakiras" was moved to Kamacuras back in the day. Doesn't matter what name they may have been referred to originally, we go by their most recently trademarked official english names.

Wikipedia is about facts, yes. Absolutely! And it is a verifiable FACT that Toho has officially trademarked this character design with the name "Zilla". They own it, they decide what's canon.

What official, legal capacity has the name "American Godzilla" (emphasis mine) ever been used for this character, anyway? None. Nada. Zilch. Zero. Doesn't appear on any of Toho's corporate logos or trademarks. This article's very name is guilty of speculation! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.50.43.174 (talk) 13:17, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Who in the heck did that to TurokSwe's reply? I mean, it's funny and all, but what the actual hell. Kaiju-Human (talk) 20:34, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I dunno, but it was real hilarious. My take is that it was someone who isn't very fond of that guy. 493Titanollante (talk) 02:32, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Two Pages

It's great to see this page has been moved back to its original title but apparently, there's a copy of this same wiki page? - Armegon —Preceding undated comment added 08:47, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I've noticed this as well, now that the editing war is over, and the Zilla page has been restored, there's no need for this American Godzilla page anymore. It should be deleted, and the redirect should be reversed, so that when people type in "American Godzilla", it should be redirected to the Zilla page. Kaiju-Human (talk) 06:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Hm, that's very true. No more TurokSwe means no more reverting facts, so we should do it. 108.214.32.91 (talk) 03:37, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Back to American Godzilla? WHY?!

I see that the Zilla page has been redirected to the American Godzilla page, re-supported with the unverified inaccuracies deleted before. I've taken the liberty of restoring the article back to its rightful verifiable state but what's the reason behind the re-re-title of the article? Official documentation of the character's name change to Zilla has been proven and provided, with three cited sources, mind you. So why the sudden change back to American Godzilla?

Remember that there is another American Godzilla, unrelated to the 1998 incarnation, due out in 2014. Are we going to call that American Godzilla II? This creature has been deemed too different to be Godzilla and has been legally/officially been recognized as Zilla by its parent owner, Toho. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Armegon (talk • contribs) 05:55, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2

American Godzilla → Zilla – [See talk page] 493Titanollante (talk) 00:49, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

This page needs to be moved back to Zilla, so I'll just re-post what I said in the Gino section, just to get things started. Everyone, please discuss why you want this page to be moved back, and please do so while logged in; it seems that this requested move can't be accomplished unless it is under just one section titled 'Requested move', with actual discussions with many logged in people. So, here's my previous posts down there on Wikizilla explaining why this should be called Zilla:

First, the article was moved to American Godzilla. That isn't very official. Secondly, the page is filled with links to Zilla fan sites; completely unnecessary. Thirdly, the page has been discussed only with a minority of Zilla fans for it to be merged into the Godzilla page. That is just, not good. It also isn't fancruft because only a few fans want it, not hundreds or tens. Finally, the fact that it claims Zilla and "American Godzilla" to be different monsters and that the 1998 Iguana is actually Godzilla, which is absolutely false.

I've got very strong facts to prove that Zilla and "American Godzilla" are both Zilla. Here are some pictures from the GMK movie to prove that this is not officially recognized as Godzilla by Toho. These prove that GODZILLA and GMK take place in the same Universe, because why else would they reference something that absolutely didn't exist in any way otherwise?

[8] [9] [10]

You can buy the DVD of Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters All-Out Attack, or just look for this bit on YouTube and you can see these people say that this is not Godzilla. Also, after Sony's rights to Godzilla expired in 2003, the creature couldn't be left in the air and Toho assumed the creature's copy-rights. The reason the 2006 DVD re-release still says "GODZILLA used with permission" etc., is because of the very obvious fact: They named the film, "GODZILLA". When TriStar 'took advantage by re-releasing GODZILLA', they just took advantage, and they didn't alter anything in the film whatsoever-- not the Title of the movie, not the name of the creature, not the copyrights on the back (except, of course, removing the icons for "GODZILLA" and "BABY GODZILLA" [11] [12]), nothing was changed except just moving the GODZILLA movie from VHS to DVD (and from DVD to Blu-Ray).

Besides, since they called the film "GODZILLA", and Godzilla is a trademark of Toho Company Ltd (TriStar's GODZILLA trademark was cancelled by Toho [13]), they do have to give credit to Toho. TriStar owns only the movie (whose title can't be changed, because movie titles can't be changed after an official release), Toho owns the monster since Sony's rights expired in 2003.

Also, the picture showing Zilla still being trademarked as "Godzilla" and the Baby Zillas as "Baby Godzilla", with people claiming it to be from the 2006 DVD? It's not from any DVD. It's from the VCR release. They've lied. And also, those trademarks have been cancelled and abandoned GODZILLA 1998 BABY GODZILLA 1998.

So, these are some very good and strong points I'm giving. You may still call this thing, which is officially known as ZILLA, American Godzilla, but the whole 'misconception' thing about the Zilla-Name Change is actually true, and it was proven in Final Wars. Just look at these creatures in Final Wars and in the movie. Do they look significantly different from each other?

[14] [15]

I didn't think so either. You might say that they do look very different, but that's because of a simple fact: Toho was not very good at Computer-Generated-Imagery (CGI), but TriStar was. That by default means that the 2004 Zilla would be less polished and look more bad-CGI-ish. Also, TriStar never did give Toho the CGI model of 1998 Gino, did they?

Also, since they are based on the same design, wouldn't that mean that they are TradeMarked as the same? I mean, Toho doesn't make different copy-rights for each incarnation of Godzilla. Toho doesn't have a Trademark specifically for the Godzilla from the 90's and a different one for the Godzilla from "Godzilla: 2000 Millenium". They are both Registered as "Godzilla" and they just put a number from what year it is after that (example: "Godzilla® 90's" and "Godzilla® 2000"). So, why would Toho create a separate TradeMark for something with the same appearance, unless they are updating it or changing its name? They didn't. GODZILLA® Cancelled [16] BABY GODZILLA Logo Cancelled ZILLA In Effect

The 1998 GODZILLA film and Godzilla: Final Wars do not take place in the same timeline and/or Universe, and since there is no official continuity between GFW and GMK (because GMK had continuity with GODZILLA 1998 because they referenced the monster in it), it all goes down to speculation from there.

At least Zilla Jr (from Godzilla: The Series) had some differences from his father, like actually being durable and having a beam, as well as being a different color; these two look very alike, except the 2004 Zilla is CGI of lesser quality that wasn't even made from the same model as the 1998 version. Also, it cannot be stated that Zilla is 'more destructive' or 'eats humans' or anything, because Zilla was being mind-controlled by the Xiliens, which would obviously mean it would have a different personality, just like the other Final Wars kaiju like Rodan, Anguirus, and King Caesar, who are known to be defenders of Earth rather than the monsters who cause destruction.

All this means is that the 'Zilla Name-Change Misconception' is a misconception itself, with millions of Godzilla and Zilla fans knowing the truth that Toho changed the creature's name to Zilla. I hope this is enough evidence from Toho and TriStar themselves that Zilla is, as a matter of fact, not Godzilla in any way.

Also, isn't it ironic that 'The American Godzilla' is a French Polynesian Iguana? Overall, ZILLA™ is the official © name of the the creature that was known as GODZILLA® prior to 2004/2005.

Here is a link to a video that uses my points to argue that Toho officially renamed the 1998 creature to Zilla. Everyone should check it out.

Also, in Godzilla: Rulers of Earth Issue #2, "ZILLA" will appear but with the exact same design of "GODZILLA 1998".

Please, do discuss! 493Titanollante (talk) 00:49, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: I concur with this statement. There's numerous evidence that the "American Godzilla" is in fact ZILLA. We're going to get the REAL American Godzilla in 2014, and having this page up will just confuse people! Besides, the first requested move was requested by a bias and disruptive liar who has already been banned from Wikipedia, so that is ALSO evidence that "American Godzilla" should be moved permanently back to Zilla. Not only that, but any and all copyrights for the design of this character in association to the name "Godzilla" have expired YEARS ago, and Toho's copyrights to the character design and the name "Zilla" are still in effect to this day! Kaiju-Human (talk) 20:39, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: I agree. There is a mountain of evidence that proves that the 1998 "American Godzilla" is officially and legally registered as "Zilla" by its parent owner, Toho. It is (legally) wrong to reference the 1998 character as Godzilla because that name, in legal terms, no longer applies to that character anymore. Here is a legal documentation proving that the 1998 character was once registered as "Godzilla" but no longer applies anymore: http://www.trademarkia.com/godzilla-75423143.html As you can see, the copyright status is canceled. Here is the former trademark logo used to accompany the copyright but that too has been cancelled, or in this case, abandoned: http://www.trademarkia.com/logo-75503990.html Here is the copyright for Zilla, showing that the copyright is currently active, registered, and in effect: http://www.trademarkia.com/zilla-76669021.html American Godzilla has no legal capacity. Zilla does because that's the official copyright Toho assigned to the 1998 character since 2004. - User:Armegon —Preceding undated comment added 22:16, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Not all the arguments in the WORLD can make those links with all that legal documentation false. 493Titanollante (talk) 02:32, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: It should be noted that an article title on Wikipedia should be the common name of the topic. Even if "Zilla" is the official term, it may be that "American Godzilla" is the more common name. In this case, "Zilla" can still be mentioned in the article's lead sentence. However, I'm not sure if there is real coverage about this specific offshoot that would warrant a split from Godzilla itself? Erik (talk | contribs) 15:31, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

  The legal documentation is right there. This character was bought by Toho Co. Ltd. fair and square, and the name was changed to "Zilla". And besides, after Godzilla: Final Wars, the general Godzilla fan community has accepted Zilla as a suitable name, while only a select few people who still want to believe the name change is a myth still call this character Godzilla, which is entirely incorrect. Kaiju-Human (talk) 17:09, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

  My initial statement is based on WP:COMMONNAME. For example, an actor's common name is the article title, where the lead sentence mentions his or her full name. I reviewed Google Books Search for "Zilla" vs. "American Godzilla", and I found the later more frequently mentioned. Also, where does Godzilla (2014 film) fall? All coverage related to that film mentions Godzilla as opposed to Zilla, even with Toho's involvement. My impression is that "Zilla" is not a common name for any article title. Erik (talk | contribs) 17:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

  I'm looking at this which does not even mention "Zilla" in the index. If this topic is supposed to be about the creature in Emmerich's 1998 film, we should be able to cover it at the film article. From what I can tell, this topic appears to fall under WP:NEO especially since there is synthesis of primary source material here. Erik (talk | contribs) 17:45, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

  Google books? Why would you even consider to search there? Zilla has not ever appeared in any books whatsoever. Zilla will be featured for the first time in a book in an upcoming comic book series by IDW, called "Godzilla: Rulers of Earth". Every Godzilla fan knows that. Also, the searches you used, about "American Godzilla", don't even talk about the creature from Final Wars and 1998. Also, yes, we are talking about the cxreature from the 1998 film, and from 2004, and from everything that featured it ever since it was created.
  And, who ever brought Godzilla 2014 to this discussion? The Godzilla from 2014 will not be involved or even remotely related with the creature THIS article mentions. The monster from the film is called "Godzilla" and not "Zilla" because simply, that movie has NOTHING to do with this monster. Also, you're wrong. Zilla is an extremely common name for all articles related to this creature. And the greater kaiju community acknowledges this creature as "Zilla", except for people who simply don't want to accept the name change. I'm making an educated guess here, and I think you aren't a Godzilla fan, or very knowledgeable about Godzilla.
  Do you want to see something actually using the ZILLA icon? Click here, and look at the circles. What does one of the circles say and show? This very creature. Also, the Godzilla from 2014 won't look, be related, or be made to Zilla. Instead of searching for "books" on Amazon.com, try just looking for Zilla. Just search "Zilla" in google. No "book", no "news", no "locations", just Zilla. Click on web results and images. There. Zilla being called Zilla. 493Titanollante (talk) 21:48, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

  Whether the character is "better known" as "American Godzilla" is redundant. American Godzilla has absolutely no legal capacity! Zilla, on the other hand, does! Toho has filed an official legal registration to the character, provided with a trademarked icon as you can see here...

http://www.freak23.com/dvd/SONY_godzilla_final_wars.jpg

The 1998 character does not appear in any of Toho's official registrations and trademarks under American Godzilla, no, but rather under Zilla. To name an article by what the topic's "common name" is contradicts the soul purpose of Wikipedia, to deliver the facts and truth and the fact and truth is the legal documentations provided before you prove that the 1998 character is officially (legally) and commonly (by fans) recognized as Zilla, not American Godzilla. Remember, Zilla has legal capacity, American Godzilla does not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Armegon (talk • contribs) 21:28, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

493Titanollante, I ask you to keep your responses succinct. Walls of text are harder to respond to. Please see the guidelines at WP:COMMONNAME for why the common name, not necessarily the same thing as the legal name, would be used for the article title. I am not a Godzilla fan and am trying to understand the issue better, which is part of why I ask for more succinct responses. To my understanding, the creature "American Godzilla"/"Zilla" has only appeared in two films: Emmerich's 1998 film, and Godzilla: Final Wars, in which the creature is opposite the more traditionally recognized Godzilla. Is this correct? Also, in response to why I searched for books, Wikipedia follows the policy of verifiability. If a book about Toho's Godzilla series does not even mention "Zilla" tangentially years after the release of Godzilla: Final Wars, then there is not a case for verifiability. As for straightforward Googling, we need to use reliable sources to help with establishing article titles and providing content. The Godzilla Wiki cannot be used to this end. That's why I quote WP:NEO: "To support an article about a particular term or concept we must cite what reliable secondary sources, such as books and papers, say about the term or concept, not books and papers that use the term." From what I can tell, reliable sources use "American Godzilla" as a common name, making it suitable as an article title per Wikipedia's guidelines. This does not mean that "Zilla" should not be mentioned in this article (if it is to be kept); we can discuss the legal terms provided that there are reliable sources for that. Erik (talk | contribs) 22:24, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Here is what I mean by an example of a reliable source covering this topic: "The monster was killed off to clear the docks for Roland Emmerich's long-in-development 'American remake' Godzilla (1988) [sic]... In Fainaru uôzu [Godzilla: Final Wars], Emmerich's monster (redubbed 'Zilla') reappears and is swiftly beaten up by the one, the only, the real Gojira. Fans cheered, few others cared." What would help would be additional sources that can look at this more closely. Maybe we can seek out coverage mentioning "Zilla" during the release of Godzilla: Final Wars. Erik (talk | contribs) 22:38, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

This mentions both "American Godzilla" and "Zilla". This also says, "This final film features a Hollywood version of Godzilla, called Zilla, employed as an assassin by space-aliens known as 'Xiliens' who seek to conquer Earth." Another point to consider is that "Zilla" may not be readily recognizable as the American Godzilla, so it still may not be a good choice for the article title due to lack of WP:PRECISION. Correct me if I'm wrong, but "Zilla" has also traditionally been used as shorthand for Godzilla. Erik (talk | contribs) 22:48, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment: Erik, the book you're looking into was published on April 13, 2007. The reason why it doesn't mention Zilla (officially) is because the name wasn't filed into the copyright registry until December 2, 2008. Less than a year after the book was published. I still disagree that the article should go by what the topic is "commonly known as" as opposed to what it officially and legally is known as. The 1998 film is still titled to this day as GODZILLA but fans and audiences commonly refer to the film as either Zilla 1998 and even at times American Godzilla but the article's title does not conform to what the film is "commonly known" by but rather by what it has officially been released as. The same principal applies to the 1998 character. Yes, some may commonly refer to the character as American Godzilla or even Godzillla USA but the absolute truth is that the character has been officially registered by Toho as Zilla and that copyright has been in effect since its foundation. Additionally, there's no need for coverage because I already provided direct links to the official legal documentations of the name but in case you missed them, here they are again...

http://www.trademarkia.com/godzilla-75423143.html

http://www.trademarkia.com/logo-75503990.html Here is the copyright for Zilla, showing that the copyright is currently active, registered, and in effect: http://www.trademarkia.com/zilla-76669021.html

- Armegon —Preceding undated comment added 22:51, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

"American Godzilla" is not a common name, as we have said before. Also, I haven't even mentioned any "Godzilla Wiki"s as a source. Want to see coverage mentioning Zilla? I'll you plenty of links, like an actual video from Final Wars.

Godzilla Final Wars Godzilla VS Zilla (read the comments showing people saying its the 1998 version)

Godzilla: Final Wars on Toho Kingdom and one

Review on Toho Kingdom (at 8th paragraph)

Zilla on Toho Kingdom

Zilla Jr

Godzillathon #23 (at the end)

Zilla Jr. vs. Cyber-Zilla (showing that people call not only the 2004 version as "Zilla", but previous versions as well)

Also, I don't get why you use old, out-dated websites to prove your claims that this is still called "American Godzilla". Ever since 2004, no one has ever called Godzilla "Zilla". "Zilla" is extremely easily associated by any and all Godzilla fans to the 1998 creature, and the creature from the animated series. While it IS true that people call this creature "American Godzilla", that isn't even a third of the current fanbase. Most Godzilla fans who still call it "American Godzilla" will most likely use it on the Godzilla 2014 monster, because many Godzilla fans do not even consider Zilla an/the "American Godzilla" in any way. They either continue to bash the monster because it wasn't Godzilla or see it as it's own thing, and don't think about it as a Godzilla incarnation, like me and the creator of that Zilla JR page on FaceBook. Just read the comments on the Godzilla Final Wars video. Those are all Godzilla fans there, commenting. 493Titanollante (talk) 00:08, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Armegon, thanks for explaining about the book being published before the name registration. Still, you are arguing to ignore the topic's common name for the title and instead give it the legal one. WP:COMMONNAME is under Wikipedia's policy for article titles. Here is a relevant passage: " The term most typically used in reliable sources is preferred to technically correct but rarer forms, whether the official name, the scientific name, the birth name, the original name, or the trademarked name." As I already explained, the common name is what is appropriate for the article title. I fully understand that there is legal documentation of the specific name Zilla, but per policy, we use a common name.

493Titanollante, we need to use reliable sources to follow Wikipedia's policy of verifiability. We cannot reference online comments, social media, or self-published websites. That is why I linked to my results. I understand that they precede the official registration, so are there any reliable sources that have discussed the trademark since then? The sources are needed because we cannot make sweeping statements without substantiation. I encourage you to read WP:NEO again. I will highlight this passage: "Neologisms that are in wide use but for which there are no treatments in secondary sources are not yet ready for use and coverage in Wikipedia." See WP:SECONDARY for what "secondary sources" means.

I sense that we will not convince each other. I do ask you to understand that Wikipedia has policies and guidelines. I have linked to the relevant ones in assessing this request to move. Based on these policies and our links, I do not see "Zilla" as a common name—as demonstrated by reliable sources as defined by Wikipedia—for the article title. I have yet to see reliable sources giving coverage about the trademark, which is what we need to move forward. At the same time, I am less sure about American Godzilla because like with Zilla, I do not see recent use of it in reliable sources. It was mentioned in older reliable sources as "the American Godzilla" as a way to differentiate from the traditional Godzilla. Another possible article title could be Godzilla (1998 film creature) because obviously that creature is called Godzilla in the context of that film, but the disambiguation term may be a mouthful for some. If you are compelled to reply, I ask to provide reliable sources as defined at WP:RS; the sources provided in this discussion are not reliable. Erik (talk | contribs) 02:13, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Then there aren't any sources in the internet at all, since all the Official 'GODZILLA' 1998 websites got sold or stopped their servers, and TOHO's Official Godzilla Website is, of course, in japanese (and it doesn't help that the official website for Godzilla isn't available in the US, and is only in japanese). So, the name change is legal, but since his Official Website can't be accessed outside of Japan, no one will ever know if it's official, even though we have all the evidence we need (that the 1998 copyrights have been cancelled), and we have the logo for Zilla in Godzilla: Final Wars in the official DVD cover, not to mention that it came after the 1998 film, absolutely none of the re-releases show the copyright logo or name (and the film still being called GODZILLA is a whole 'nother topic, because that film TriStar actually owns, but since TriStar's rights to Godzilla expired in 2003, they can't make any more Godzilla films and they can't use the logo and/or character other than the film which they have documented as GODZILLA [which they can't rename, because a movie's title can't be changed years or months after it officially premiered], which is copyright of Toho, so they still say that the "GODZILLA" trademark is used with permission from them). But just like you said, that may be too much legal, true, and official stuff. Anyways, since there aren't any reliable sources, and there is proof of the name change, and many, many fans call this creature ZILLA, this should just be called Zilla.

Also, I read "WP:RS", and I found this: "The word "source" when citing sources on Wikipedia has three related meanings: the piece of work itself (the article, book)". Isn't Godzilla: Final Wars a piece of work itself? It includes the monster that is being discussed, and it comes from the parent studio of Godzilla (Toho) which also obtained the rights to the 1998 creature in 2003, doesn't it? But then again, since it is official, and it isn't a reliable website, I guess it doesn't count. I also found this: "The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is an appropriate source for that content. In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article. If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." Does this mean that Wikipedia shouldn't have an article on "Zilla"? After all, no reliable sources can be found in the internet, and all we have is too much legal evidence. If it is so, then the administrator can just delete this article. It'll make things easier for the kaiju community.493Titanollante (talk) 04:10, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• Weak support The 1998 incarnation of the creature tends to be referred to as the "American Godzilla", so keeping with WP:COMMONNAME, that is obviously a more encylopedic title for the article. Even though there is a shit load of original research in the article and the move proposal, the gist is that the article is about a specific trademarked version of the creature. Reading Kalat, pg.153 (especially pages 155–156) convinces me that American Godzilla identifies a topic scope taking in the American re-edits of the original films that turned the monster into a dragon, the 1998 creature and presumably the new upcoming film i.e. its general depiction in American media. Generally I would have concurred with Erik's alternative suggestion but it seems to have popped up in another production too, so on account of that I support the move to Zilla to unambiguously identify this specific trademarked version. Betty Logan (talk) 03:46, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment: See, I agree with you 99%. What I don't agree with is that this is the Common name, because no up-to-date reliable sources call it "American Godzilla" any more. There are three "American Godzilla"s: the first was from Hanna-Barbera, the second was Zilla, and the third, which everyone is calling both Godzilla and American Godzilla, is from the upcoming 2014 Godzilla film. All of these are made by different companies, and will look different. The "Godzilla (1998 film monster)" page should be a redirect to Zilla, and maybe the Legendary Pictures Godzilla will either become part of the Godzilla article, or be called something else. This page (American Godzilla) should be a disimbaguation, listing the animated Godzilla, Zilla, and the Legendary Godzilla. 493Titanollante (talk) 04:46, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment: Erik, your argument is logically sound however, I would still have to disagree with you. Much of the sources you've provided have been outdated. Recent sources have actually refereed to the 1998 creature as Zilla, as he was confirmed to be featured in the upcoming comic series Godzilla: Rulers of Earth under the name Zilla, not American Godzilla and I absolutely agree with Logan's and Titano's arguments. The 1998 creature wasn't the first "American Godzilla". There have been other Western interpretations prior such as the mentioned Hanna-Barbera Godzilla cartoon, Steve Miner's initial American Godzilla film attempt from the early 80's, TriStar's early version of Godzilla from Jan de Bont, and the semi-American production of Godzilla, King of the Monsters! and Godzilla 1985. An article with the title American Godzilla would imply the article covers not only the 1998 incarnation but past interpretations as well. - User talk: Armegon —Preceding undated comment added 05:33, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support a move because 493Titanollante and Armegon have made a good case for "American Godzilla" not being a proper article title. That is one kind of ambiguity to avoid. It seems like "Zilla" is the only real option to use, especially considering their cited use in upcoming media. However, I also think that "Zilla" by itself has its own ambiguity. When I was researching this topic, most instances of "zilla" had to do with -zilla, so I do not think this creature can be considered the primary topic over that concept. If we move to "Zilla", we should have a disambiguation term attached. I'm not sure what that could be. Zilla (film monster), perhaps? If you agree about adding a disambiguation term, I'm open to suggestions. Erik (talk | contribs) 21:30, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
• 'Support' Erik, you are absolutely right. The term Zilla has been lifted from the Toho character's name Godzilla and has become somewhat of a cultural term to refer anything massive or bad, for example Zilla-music, Zilla-rules, Bride-Zilla, Broad-Zilla, etc. Yes, a disambiguation term should follow but I say it should be called either Zilla (Kaiju) or Zilla (character). I say kaiju because the character is now part of the Godzilla universe and is now coined as a Kaiju amongst others but I also say character because, well, this is a character but I support adding a disambiguation term to the article. Armegon (talk) 01:56, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Armegon

This may help: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (characters)#Disambiguating a character. Betty Logan (talk) 02:07, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support I'm all for a disambiguation term to distinguish the Zilla character from other forms of media that use "-zilla" in their names. I believe Zilla (film monster) or Zilla (Godzilla Series) would be good disambiguation terms, at least in my opinion. 66.26.66.25 (talk) 02:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC)