Talk:Viktor Orbán

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PanARMENIAN.Net - Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan convened an extraordinary meeting of diplomatic representatives of the countries and international organizations accredited to Yerevan following the extradition by Hungary and further pardon by the Azerbaijani leader of Armenian officer Gurgen Margaryan’s killer Ramil Safarov. Addressing the meeting participants, President Sargsyan described Hungary’s act as unforgivable and declared that Yerevan severs diplomatic relations with Budapest. "We have been closely following all the developments around that criminal. This issue has been discussed during each and every meeting with the President, Speaker of the Parliament, Foreign Minister and Ambassador of Hungary, and we have been assured on numerous occasions that such a transfer or a return of a criminal to Azerbaijan was excluded. We have received that same response to our requests during our contacts just a few days ago with the representatives of the Hungarian Foreign Ministry and Parliament. But as a result of perfidious developments the murderer has turned up in Baku and got released," President Sargsyan said. "With their joint actions the authorities of Hungary and Azerbaijan have opened the door for the recurrence of such crimes. With this decision they convey a clear message to the butchers. The slaughterers hereafter are well aware of impunity they can enjoy for the murder driven by ethnic or religious hatred," he said. "I officially announce that as of today we suspend diplomatic relations and all official contacts with Hungary.We expect a precise and unambiguous response by all our partners with regard to this incident.Anyone who tolerates this, will tomorrow be held responsible to history," the President concluded.

stupid (Viktor Orban) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.72.171.176 (talk) 19:42, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

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Hi everyone,

A couple of things on the article. By the way whoever did it, congratulations on the job well done.

1. "Orban is a deeply religious Protestant". It should be "Orbán is Protestant" for the sake of NPOW: nowhere it said or written in public media that he would be deeply religious, and certainly did not act on it while in office.
2. "Fidesz, which was transformed from a liberal party ... into a right-wing party". Should say "transformed ... into "centre-right liberal conservative", since both in rethoric and action Fidesz is more accurately described this way. Also, it is the term used on the "Fidesz" page.
3. "collapse of the national right in 1994". If this is in referrance to the MDF, "national right" also doesn't quite cut it, "conservative Christian democrat" would be more appropriate as it is phrased on the "MDF" page.
4. I'm not sure about the last one. When it talks about the status law, should it be mentioned that all countries opposing the status law have exact or very similar laws in place for a long time now (all 7 neighboring countries for the support of their minorities living in Hungary). This should be fairly important for balance.

Sorry for the long post.

milfor

Just a comment. Certainly fides means faith in latin, but the name of the party is more to do with the intials of: Alliance of Young Democrats.

"Faith" as the translation of fides (from a dictionary of foreign words) was advertised in their own first campaign at the beginning of the 90s. Adam78 12:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

1. Sure 2. Let's talk about this further on the Fidesz talk page (and could you link the quote from Fidesz site, please) 3. it's a shortcut. There are two main sides in Hungary: left and right, but these labels are a little bit obscure: "right" wants to stop privatisation, nationalise some services, etc., while "left" uses neo-liberal rhetorics many times. 4. This is a very sensitive political issue -- mentioning it or not mentioning it. Let's keep the page for now as is, I think. --Sicboy 23:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Re-he-heally now? He is Protestant? I thought he was a good Catholic schoolboy. Well, what do I know, right? Anyway, I think the term "liberal conservative" is fair enough as long as you explain that the party is socially conservative but economically liberal. --PistolPower 17:48, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

NOTE to The background of the political career of Mr. Orban

Political analysts believe that the speeches of Mr. Orban in 1989, and also the foundation of the Federation of Young Democrats was due to the conspiration of the communist friends, Mr. Horvath and Mr. Pozsgay, for extending their power even after the democratic changes in Hungary. Recently it is also widespread believed that Mr. Orban was an intelligence agent of the Horvath-Pozsgay ruling communist team against the democratic opposition "SZDSZ" (Allience of Free Democrats) during the transition process from the communist dictatorship to democracy in Hungary.

Lol...who are these political analysts man? Cite it properly, sources, names etc. unless what you say doesn't count as a factually supported note. I could easily think you may have just made it out yourself...

Also this is true for the whole article on Viktor Orbán. There are CLAIMS, mostly based on OPINIONS that are masked as facts and truth. No way can it count as valid. Moreover, the referential material is not cited properly, with proper links and the like, and I couldn't actually find the relevant parts in them.

So: Find REAL sources and POWERFUL ones, or else I will find it hard to believe what you have just scribbled here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.97.83.51 (talk) 15:16, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

NOTE (DO NOT DELETE)

User with IP 80.98.233.132 is from Budapest, Hungary, node name catv-5062e984.catv.broadband.hu, (Chello Broadband), Network: UPC Magyarorszag Kft. Cable installed, cable internet... Budapest confirmed.

-To do: Find out location, get pictures of the place, possible target list...

Hey, he only added that his opponents think OV is xenophobic. Twice. We had vandals removing half of the Hungary page and replacing it with advertisement/propaganda, and we could stay calm and the vandals disappeared. Minekutána fegyverrajongó vagy, a végén még valaki komolyan veszi, hogy megfenyegetted egy darab szóért, és még neked lehet bajod :), tehát: nyugi. --Sicboy 00:34, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

New revision about Political Career

Hey. User:Revolutionary here. Please tell me if I've done something wrong with the new section, "Prime Minister of Hungary". I'm sorry if I've botched up the "Life after Government" section, but this is my fault for not having enough resources now.

Oh, and please, someone tell me how to spell this Istvan Csurka fellow's name.

POV cleanup

I'm going to perform a POV cleanup on the article, as I found it biased.

Such statements as: "the opposition largely remained at sixes and sevens, unable to attract political support in light of Fidesz's overwhelmingly professional political communication campaign." (stating the cause for lack of support as the opponent's communication is highly misleading, since we cannot know the reason why voters decided to favor one party more. The communication argument seems to be false though, since Fidesz did not and does not have the support of most of the media).

"Governments in adjacent states, particularly Romania, were insulted by the so-called status law, which they saw as a direct interference in their domestic affairs." (It should be noted that many neighbouring nations, like Slovakia, Ukraine or Serbia have such similar laws)

"The patriotic propaganda of the conservative government led by Fidesz–Hungarian Civic Party stirred emotions among both its supporters and its opponents andcaused an unprecedented cultural-political division in the country." (We cannot state as a fact what caused the division, because both sides claim the other had caused it. Personally I seem to recall a quite mild campaign from Fidesz, because they were leading the polls by as much as 10% before the 2002 elections)

"For their part, MIEP and Fidesz challenged the government's legitimacy, demanded a recount, complained of election fraud, and generally kept the country in election mode until the October municipal elections." (This is actually a blatant lie. Orban accepted the defeat at election night and Fidesz didn't demand a recount. They did complain about election fraud, but nothing as substantial to significantly influence the outcome of the elections. Lumping together MIEP with Fidesz is like equating a moderate republican with Ann Coulter)

"As the Medgyessy government inherited an economy on the downturn, the slowdown was generated by (among other things) excessive state spending during his predecessor's tenure." (This is absolutely incorrect. Even the left-leaning Economist admits that Orbán had run the economy well.)

"He was also lambasted by opponents for an arrogant communication style, alleged fiscal mismanagement (pointing to the 2000 two-year budget and perceived failure to cut the budget deficit), damaging scandals during his government, excessive negative campaigning against the opposition and nationalism (but his supporters see him as a patriot). He was also accused of neglecting the troubled relations between Hungary and Romania.

Fidesz has been confused in its attemps to consolidate its right wing positioning with populist left-wing propaganda. This lack of clear direction cost Orbán the election in 2006." (I do not think that these allegations should be left there by themselves, they either should be completely removed or expanded with the supporters' take on the issue.)

Please, do not claim things without reference or without adding whose _opinion_ you're claiming, because it might seem that they are facts when they are only opinions.

Comments are welcome. A beautiful mind 14:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

What I heard

Under the caption of Fidesz, I found: "It was founded in 1988, named simply Fidesz (Fiatal Demokraták Szövetsége, Alliance of Young Democrats), originally as a youthful libertarian party against communism" Nothing about fides, as a latin word.

When Fidesz and Orbán Viktor turned away from liberalism to join christian conservatism, they changed the party name. Fidesz now has no official resolution as a shorthand, the party is called "Fidesz - Alliance of Hungarian Citizens". Since their christian-conservative agenda is more popular with older voters, they no longer want the "young dems" reference in their name.

The original idea for the Fidesz name came in 1987 supposedly, from the post-WWII italian neorealism movie Bicycle Thieves. In one scene the protagonists are searching for the namesake stolen bicycle and one says to the other: "Look at the trade mark, the one bike branded Fides we must find." When Orbán and his fellows decided on this name for the new party, the "Alliance of Young Democrats" phrase was back-invented to resolve Fi.de.sz as a short-hand. At least that was what a founding Fidesz member told me about the origin of their party name. 213.178.114.82 19:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Orban in the media section added

I have added an "Viktor Orbán in the media" section (domestic-pro-gov, domestic-anti-gov, domestic-extreme-right, foreign press). Since current hungarian political landscape is so antagonistic and divided by massive trenches, it is virtually impossible to make a well-referenced section on this topic. I tried to depict what someone who listens to lot of radio, reads lot of net, reads several papers finds in all.

I spent significant time to compose it, make it better if you wish, but deleting it would be stupid since the topic exists and is very worthy of description. Modern politics is highly media-oriented, especially in Huhgary it is decisive, since democracy is only 16 years old and all magyar people are "genetically receptive" to antagonization (cannot say it any milder). We call this unfortunate phenomenon "turáni átok" or "the curse of Turan". Media has huge responsibility in how people perceive domestic politics.

Ummm...Beg your pardon? Would you be so kind as to restrain yourself speaking in the name of all hungarians? Certain people you know, unlike you, do not really believe in curses and they just do not call it "the curse of Turan", for example because they have a funny feeling that sentences like this: ,,all magyar people are "genetically receptive" to antagonization" are arrogant and does not make any sense. In my humble opinion, your interpretation of hungarian politics is offensive, biased and relatively stupid. But your opinion is just as important as any others' and always welcome, while you are not talking in the name of people who never gave you the authority to do so. Thank you--178.48.50.144 (talk) 16:33, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

It should be considered that conservative media has limited distribution in Hungary due to regulatory and market realities.

The only two over-the-air nationwide commercial TV channels TV2 and RTLKLUB are both pro-gov (liberal), having thanked their long licence extension to the reigning gov't coalition (RTLklub has the famed Orbán-Fidesz-mocking "Heti Hetes" talkshow, TV2 intellectually anti-Fidesz, less active). State-run on-air MTV1 is well, state-run,,they did not even show themselves being besieged and torched by mob after the famed Gyurcsany-speech of late Sept 2006. State-run but patriotic and minority oriented DunaTV is statellite/CATV only, thus having limited distribution. Same for HirTV, the hyperactive on-site news channel of the right-wing opposition. The MSZP has its own CATV station called ATV, which tries to counter HirTV, but carries studio talk instead of on-site news. Any porn channel is legal here and unlimitedly available on CATV, satellite or net. This entire situation will not change until digital TV kills analog TV (about 2009-2012).

State radio station Kossuth is mixed, more right-wing than liberal, but few listen to it anyhow. Overwhelmingly huge daily newspaper Nepszabadsag (NOL) is braindead pro-govt. Right-wing daily Magyar Nemzet (MNO) has problems with finding market funds to compete with NOL (which has color print), due to frequent fascism allegations. The very influential weekly HVG had the top boss editior replaced spring 2006 (allegedly to aid in MSZP-SZDSZ election campaign) and HVG is now serviantly pro-govt. Both HVG and NOL are owned by foreign firms with strong european liberal links.

Far-right media exists mostly on the net, they simply do not have funds to print or air anything.

All in all, it is much easier to say "Dirty Viktor Orban!" and have it heard nationwide then praise him. 213.178.114.82 19:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

There is a lot of whisper talk going on in Hungary that Viktor Orbán is an ethnic gypsy and his birth family name was Orsós. This would make him de facto excluded from hungarian politics, due to prejudice against the gipsy people (of which sorrowfully a lot is fact-based, since the gipsy do not adapt to a market economy society). Anyhow, MSZP supporters and some commercial radios are quite keen on saying "dirty Viktor Orsós" on suitable occasion. I found this issue too low to include in the article. 213.178.114.82 20:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

This sentence does not make much sense to me. "In far right-wing media, Viktor Orbán often earns criticism for not doing enough to uproot the remnants of communism from Hungarian politics (i.e. he did not supplant the MSZP party while Prime Minister). " What was he supposed to do, ban the Socialist Party? Gsandi 12:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Almost exactly. In fact the czech republic made a law after their "velvet revolution" to ban former communist party top brass from holding public offices in the new democratic republic for some 10 or 15 years. The hungarian far right expected that Orban will institute the same law in Hungary, so people like Gyula Horn (who actively participated in the military branch of secret communist state police in 1957-1959, yet became PM between 1994-1998) or Gyorgy Bolgar (journalist who unconditionally licked the rear of communist gov't before 1989 and now publishes anti-conservative hysteria in big daily paper Nepszabadsag) could be forcibly removed from hungarian politics.

It is the dream of hungarian political right, that the MSZP be destroyed and replaced with a social-democrat party and nothing further-left-wing should exist in the domestic political palette. Sorrowfully a true social-democrat party was not formed in Hungary after 1989, even though this political stance was very successful before WWII. 195.70.32.136 16:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I have reedited the Orbán Viktor in Media section. It formerly contained material which could only be disputed in context with the general perception of reality of the writer, in the comprehensionless denial of e.g. effect causing nature of the Liberal Party, which can simply be shown in the constitutional modification of the abolition of the regular army with the establishing of a sole professional army, and the Constitutional modification of local goverment elections to one where mayors are elected directly and in which the whole election take only one turn. Political commentators said they didn't get the confidence of the people to form the first government of the republic because they represented too radical program and pace. I agree with that that that party's policies become insensitive and extreme-capitalist of larger immediate profit which generates in time so large opposition in the society that sooner or later it is removed by force. Their current 1% shows where dismantling the guarantee of minimum level of existence, and transpassability of social hierarchy by trying to eliminate state distribution of wealth in the matters of health care and higher education reflects their narcissistic cynism. The comment on the legitimacy of the governing parties was solely the oppinion of the writer, which did not even cite sources, which is not surprising as an analytic mentality instead of a reality-hating histerical one is necessary for that, and the inserted sources by me show how perfectly it could be found by that mentality. Far-right ideology of the source is not reinstated, as it simply disregards the fact that three kinds of people were former Workers' party members: those who believed in socialism, these were the smallest fraction, those who disregarded the system and only wanted to advance in the society to become somebody, and those who entered it first to achieve technical results, then when they gradually got the possibility to dismantle the state-socialism, they did it under the disguise of propaganda of technical modifications. Consequently the idiot demand for punishing everyone who was on that party's list is a disregard to the human achievments of more than the third of those scientists, academy members, sociologists, and others, who didn't only lack the possibility to fully realise their goals before the system change but couldn't even say what they represented openly.—Preceding unsigned comment added by N.11.6 (talk • contribs) 22:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup

Now that Orbán became PM of Hungary, I think this article should be improved to a much better quality. The current "media" section is a frustrated anti-Orbán text being far from neutral. I think that whole section should be cut out. It mentions many historically unimportant trivia and pure nonsense, and is much too long compared to its relevance. Qorilla (talk) 21:10, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I completely agree! The "Orbán in the media" section is a piece of biased garbage. The last garbled sentence doesn't even make any sense. Much more work should be put into this article! 87.194.167.167 (talk) 20:23, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Added Oct 2010: It needs far more than a mere "cleanup"! For instance the critical change of Fidesz's politics, led by OV, from left-liberal to right wing Christian nationalist, is only mentioned in passing. This alone deserves its own section.

Then there is the amazing black hole where the 2006 election should be (again, this is only mentioned in passing). The ego battle between Orbán and Dávid, the loss of an election many thought Fidesz would win easily, the bizarre stand of OV when he said vote for me, but I won't become prime minister, and then the final destruction of MDF, to give Fidesz complete dominance of the centre-right in Hungary. These are all critical periods in OV's passage from young democrat to PM with dictatorial powers, yet they are not mentioned!

The way OV and Fidesz chose to behave between 2006 and 2010 - walking out whenever the MSZP PM rose to speak, the overwhelming anti-MSZP 'lies and Commies' propaganda campaign, etc - also needs a section of its own, as this period, and Fidesz's behaviour during it, effectively created the 'new' VO who is now such a powerful PM of Hungary.

In fact this article, as good as the early sections are, is so lacking in information about critical times in OV's career that it really should have one of those Wikepedia 'Only a stub' warnings on the front page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.152.49 (talk) 22:39, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Right-wing or mere Conservative politician?

Majority of foreign media in the world and opposition in Hungary refer to Victor Orban as populist right-wing politician. And not without reason. It is so because of his way of governing. I would say that his government sometimes seems to be a ultra right-wing one. However, I see that this could be biased. Therefore the term "right-wing" is the most accurate one. That's how we can describe his policies such as:

• enactment of the new constitution based on the principle of belonging to Hungarian nation rather than citizenship,
• introduction of the restrictive media law,
• restraining the powers of the Hungarian Constitutional Court which undermines the rule of law.User:18hangar18

• - uncited and unsigned - discussion is where you post here and you allow discussion not where you post some uncited claim here and then you revert again - stop reverting and start discussing. Present your case with WP:RS here and allow users the opportunity to discuss and investigate. Off2riorob (talk) 20:51, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Victor Orban is a right-wing politician Should you want to prove otherwise then give some relevant arguments supported by valid citations.

• Opening the citations for investigation Off2riorob (talk) 11:55, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/05/hungary-one-party-rule - this one does refer to him as "As a rightwing populist" - but its a "commentisfree" opinionated editorial and not a WP:RS to label a living person as such. Off2riorob (talk) 12:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/populist-premier--set-for-defeat-in--hungarian-election-657824.html - This one refers to his as "Hungary's populist Prime Minister, Viktor Orban" and says that, "as leader of Fidesz, he embarked upon rebrand-ing what had been a radical liberal party as a Christian conservative group," - they do not refer to him as a right wing politician at all. Off2riorob (talk) 12:07, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/apr2011/hung-a26.shtml - this is a Socialist website and as such clearly opinionated in any way they describe anyone. Off2riorob (talk) 12:04, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

As he is leader of what is described as a Centre right conservative party Fidesz - I am not certain we should be describing its leader as right wing - it stands to reason that he is also a cenre right conservative. I would like to get some more opinions from editors that are well informed on the differences. Off2riorob (talk) 12:01, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

You cannot ask some other editors what they think, because they are just laymen and not political scientists. What they say can be just their opinion. However, we need facts, not opinions, in order to describe Victor Orban. That is why everybody who wants to describe Victor Orban as centre-right conservative politician has to support it with relevant citations otherwise it is just his opinion. 18hangar18 (talk) 13:54, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

edits

1. The paragraphs in the section "Viktor Orbán in the media" are pure original research. Most of it is unsourced. The only references given, do not support the text before them. In biographies of living persons, the principle of verifiability is even more important than elsewhere. OR (possibly harmful) is strictly forbidden and must be avoided at any rate.
2. Orbán's political position is subject to heavy discussions. The references in the first sentence do not support "centre-right". I believe they have been inserted to support "populist" or something, and then someone has changed the text, without changing the sources. As it is controversial, we can simply avoid the "centre-right" or "right-wing" question in the lead section. "Conservative" is relatively uncontroversial and already implies a position right of centre.
3. World Socialist Web Site is a Trotzkyist portal and absolutely not a reliable source to verify the political position of anyone, especially not a living person

I hope that you can understand my edits now. Kind regards --RJFF (talk) 20:20, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

redirection?

1. The section "Viktor Orbán in the media" is dealing not only with the person of Mr. Orbán, but with the new Hungarian constitution. If this section will be expanded with further reactions of international organisations, we should consider redirection to the constitution of Hungary

--Ltbuni (talk) 13:39, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

It's highly relevant to both, and appears in both. Stevan Harnad 14:28, 8 March 2013 (UTC) Harnad (talk)

Content on constitution amendment

The content on the recent constitution amendment is overtly long and much too detailed for this article. This article has to describe Orbán and his biography in a balanced way and not focus on some aspects, especially not slant towards recent news (WP:NOTNEWS, WP:RECENTISM). This has to be summarized and shortened significantly. This article is about the person Viktor Orbán and his life, and not about the latest constitution change. --RJFF (talk) 17:03, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Transfer

• Maybe we should "transfer" some of the content of this article to the Second Cabinet of Viktor Orbán. This latter one only contains the "criticism of the constitution".

• Are there two Kim Lane Scheppeles? In the "Fourth amendment of the 2011 Constitution" section there is a sentence: "Criticism is coming from KLS (first place) ... and KLS (last place).Someone should fix it.

Oppinion?

Ltbuni (talk) 21:16, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I am responsible for these long texts (media law, EU presidency etc.), but then I did not yet create the article of Second Cabinet of Viktor Orbán. --Norden1990 (talk) 22:22, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Was Viktor Orbán a leader of the Communist Youth Organisation?

There have been 3 attempts in the past week to insert a peace of info about his alleged/potential/suspected early carrier in the Communist Youth Organisation. As far as I know, it is a constant and unproved accusation - raised by Hungarian Socialists and Liberals - to smear him. I'd like to invite the editors concerned to shed light on this issue. If they got documents to prove their point, we eagerly extend the article. --Ltbuni (talk) 19:52, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

According to the book of József Debreczeni (who currently holds deputy chairman of the oppositional Democratic Coalition) Orbán was a secretary of the KISZ in his high school. So, he definitely was not a prominent leader. --Norden1990 (talk) 19:56, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Could You please share the page number? I'd like to check it --195.228.150.67 (talk) 21:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I found in the book of dr Péter Kende (very hostile to Mr. Orbán) that Mr Orbán was a secretary of his secondary school. (page 11) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ltbuni (talk • contribs) 08:56, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

It is unimportant whether Dr Kende likes Mr Orban or not. The question is: is it a reliable source? --RJFF (talk) 13:21, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Does Orban explicitly deny having held a position in KISZ or does he just not mention it? If he explicitly denies it, the article should take this into account ("According to J. Debereceni and P. Kende .... Orban himself denies ....") --RJFF (talk) 13:26, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Does Debreczeni or Kende write, in which year Orban (purportedly) was a KISZ secretary? If yes, we should mention it in the article to show that there was quite some time between Orban's (potential) involvement in KISZ and the start of his activities in Fidesz. Otherwise it looks like he just switched from a communist organisation to a strongly anti-communist one which would seem rather incomprehensible. If he dropped out of KISZ in, say, 1981 and became a Fidesz activist in 1988, one could imagine that he gradually turned away from the communist system during these years (which would not seem too improbable). --RJFF (talk) 13:36, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Does Debreczeni or Kende write anything in explanation of his development from an (allegedly) active KISZ member to a Fidesz founder? --RJFF (talk) 15:27, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Mr. Kende's book ( A Viktor) can be read online, anyone can Google it. I don't think he is a reliable source - it is self-published, biased, focusing only on the negative side of Mr. Orbán's personality, we don't know where he got the key info, no footnotes, and given the fact that Mr. Kende is a political opponent of Mr. Orbán, it is likely that it does not meet the standards of reliability. Reading the book, it sounds like a gossip, that Orbán was KISZ-leader. I haven't read the whole text, but the parts I know gave me the impression, that it is a kind of libel / smear campaign against the PM - that is why I did not add it to the sources section. But, on the other hand, Mr. Debreceni's book, The prime minister (A miniszterelnök, 2002) was based on the interviews with Mr. Orbán, and according to Norden1990, it contains the questioned data, and I have the same memories. The book, "A miniszterelnök", has a short preface written by Mr. Orbán himself, in which he says, that the only deficiency of the work of Mr. Debreceni is that it focuses only on the politician Viktor Orbán, not on the average man, but basically it is OK. Given the fact, that we got at least two different books - one written by an opponent and one written by a "fan" (Mr. Debreceni did not cross floor till 2009-2010) - claiming the same, I think it should be in the Wikipedia. I am still looking for the page number of Mr Debreceni's book. Mr. Orbán's "conviction", if he previously had had any, was changed because of the brutality/stupidity of his superiors, while serving his national service in the Hungarian People's Army.

--Ltbuni (talk) 07:40, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Debreczeni was never been a "fan" of Orbán, for example he also wrote a book about another PM Ferenc Gyurcsány. I'll look into that Orbán was a KISZ secretary in his high school (and definitely was not a national leader of the organization) or not. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:21, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

---This is off topic, but according to the Hungarian Wikipedia, Mr. Debreceni supported Orbán till 2004-2005, was his personal advisor between 1994-1996. He was a right-wing politician as well. He wrote his book in 2002. The point is that if two writers (Kende and Debreceni of 2002), with such different political opinions, give us the same info, we should accept that as true --Ltbuni (talk) 11:51, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

In my personal opinion, we could accept these sources as reliable, but it is not appropriate that this information should be included in the introduction, as Orbán was a KISZ member only during his school years. I don't think that this is a significant chapter in his political career. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:57, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I was wrong about the title of Mr. Debreceni's book. The above mentioned one, written in 2002, dealing with Mr. Orbán has the following title: "Orbán Viktor" (Printed in: Budapest, by: Osiris, in 2002). Sorry.--Ltbuni (talk) 09:19, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I found another written source for his KISZ-leadership. Árpád Pünkösti, in his book, Szeplőtelen fogantatás, writes the following (Sorry, I write this in Hungarian for those - probably Hungarian - users who can't help "upgrading" this article with his Communist past): "Elsőben és másodikban OV alapszervezeti KISZ-titkár volt. Büszke volt rá, hogy felvették a KISZ-be, hogy Kilián-próbát tett, de amikor napirendre került, hogy reformokra lenne szükség, jobban kellene csinálni az egészet, azok között volt, akik komolyan vették a változtatást is... A nagy KISZ-ezésben végül új alapszervezetet akartak létrehozni. A névadó nem Kun Béla lett volna, hanem Hermann javaslatára az első magyar anarchista, a szabadságharcos Kászonyi Dániel. Ez már nem ment. Ekkor az alsósokkal is összefogva Hermann, Incze Zsolt és OV elhatározta, hogy a diákparlamentre igazi értékelést készítenek a KISZ-életéről. Felosztották a munkát és a maga területén mindenki vizsgálódott, közvélemény-kutatásfélét is végzett, aztán a küldöttgyűlésn kipakoltak. A párttitkár állítólag ezt súgta az igazgató fülébe: ez provokáció, ezek minket akarnak kicsinálni! A KISZ-patronáló tanárnő sírt: botrány majd mosolyszünet." Árpád Pünkösti: Szeplőtelen fogantatás, pp. 138-139. Népszbadság Könyvek (!!!!) 2005. The book is reliable: based on interviews, documents, sources are indicated, therefor they can be checked. Árpád Pünkösti is a journalist, sociologist, has an own wiki-article in Hungarian .

Concerning the Canadian-Hungarian Democratic Charter and Mr. Harnad: The Viktor Orbán article has a sub-section, dealing with the international criticism of the Fourth Amendment - according to the Canadian-Hungarian Democratic Charter and Mr. Harnad's "Democracy in Hungary" sub-section, they have a leading role in this criticism, so I felt that is appropriate to add them to the See Also section. But I don't insist. --Ltbuni (talk) 18:28, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Does either of the biographers write something about Orban's development from a communist youth member/secretary to an anti-communist activist? The article would gain if it included something about his early political development and influence. At the moment, it focusses too strongly and too detailedly on his time as party leader and prime minister while it has only scarce information about his youth and early career. --RJFF (talk) 16:02, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm on it, but it may take a while... --Ltbuni (talk) 18:04, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

How he became an anti-communist

We have 3 sources: I. Árpád Pünkösti

Pünkösti writes that in 1979, when VO was 17, with his 9 friends he formed some kind of study-circle: they listened to the Free Europe Radio, they had discussion on hot topics, such as the Soviet invasion of Afganisthan. He met in the circle Lajos Simicska, and Zsolt Incze who were openly against the Communist regime, The circle got busted, someone revealed their activity, but the teachers did not punish them. But this whole thing was very exciting to them. Viktor Orbán himself said that: "those boys said such things against the regime, against the Communism, that I almost dropped my teeth. They were sceptical about everything. Within 6 months, I became the opposite I had been previously. (p. 142.) VO was admitted to the University of ELTE, but first he had to do his national service in Zalaegerszeg - he found it humiliating, aggressive and senseless - he became radical there: once he hit an officer (145); in a protest against the inhuman treatment of the recruits he shaved off his head hair (147). In 1982, the Hungarian Communist Secret Police, (Section III/III) tempted him into collaboration, but he did not become a snitcher (149).

II. Kende is basically the same.

III. Debreceni: I don't know what he wrote, I don't have the book. Anyone? Norden1990? --Ltbuni (talk) 22:26, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

According to Debreczeni, his political view changed when he joined the army in his youth (as honvéd). --Norden1990 (talk) 22:47, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Is he Jewish?

A year ago, a French newspaper (Les Echos) claimed that he had said that, he is partly Jewish.

http://www.lesechos.fr/18/01/2012/LesEchos/21104-036-ECH_viktor-orban--l-infrequentable.htm

Hungarian newspapers later claimed, that it was wrong, and the Les Echos promised to fix their article:

http://hungariandigest.wordpress.com/2012/01/24/french-paper-orban-is-jewish/

But despite the promise of the Les Echos, they did not correct the article. Could anyone provide us with reliable source? --Ltbuni (talk) 19:07, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Orbán administration acknowledges Hungary responsibility in the holocaust and appologies

Considering that Fidesz and Orbán himself is oftenly accused for supporting or at least tolerating antisemitism, this is significant information, especially since this is the first time a hungarian government is doing so. Unfortunately, I only have german language sources for this (Hungarian Voice, Die Welt)SüsüASárkány (talk) 11:49, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Copyright violation problem

Hello all;

I feel this is a pretty important page considering the Hungarian political climate. Orban is probably the most important figure of 21st century Hungary, so it'd probably be best not to have half the article blocked off as "copyright violation". Why is this there and how can we solve this? The same problem is witnessed on the page about the recent elections in Hungary. KFan II (talk) 20:50, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Hello, KFan II. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hungary#Copyright concerns related to your project for background on why these two articles are blanked. The problem with this page can be solved by rewriting the infringing text on a new page, according to the instructions on the template. (Follow the link next to the text "Otherwise, you may write a new article without copyright-infringing material.") An administrator will then double-check that the rewrite is OK, copy it over the infringing material, and excise the infringing material from the page history.

Unfortunately, these two articles aren't the only ones affected by the copyright problems; there are probably hundreds more. If you have time, please consider visiting Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Norden1990 to help with the cleanup. —Psychonaut (talk) 21:15, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:36, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Apologies to edits interested in this area for the setback. Unfortunately, it is not a simple matter to clean out copyright infringements of this type. I hope that you will help reconstruct this section with new content that complies with our copyright and non free content policies. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:36, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

After the restoration of the content out of process, it has been revision deleted to help ward against further return. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 01:16, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

misleading

"According to him, a new way of Hungarian state organisation, following the era of liberal state – respecting the values of Christianity, freedom and human rights, – can make Hungary competitive again. Within days, numerous western media outlets, international leaders, academics, and foreign policy experts condemned Orban for his statements and called upon the EU and NATO to address Orbán's alarming statements"

I think this is just missing the point. All the media criticism about the speech was not Mr Orban's views on liberalism, but on the fact that he identified China, Russia and Turkey as examples to follow. --K0zka (talk) 19:21, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

He did not identify those countries as examples to follow. Borsoka (talk) 01:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on that? In what sense did he mention the countries above? --K0zka (talk) 06:41, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

He stated, for instance: "the most popular topic in thinking today is trying to understand how systems that are not Western, not liberal, not liberal democracies and perhaps not even democracies, can nevertheless make their nations successful. The stars of the international analysts today are Singapore, China, India, Russia and Turkey. ... the 2010 elections, and especially in the light of the 2014 election victory, can safely be interpreted as meaning that in the great global race that is underway to create the most competitive state, Hungary’s citizens are expecting Hungary’s leaders to find, formulate and forge a new method of Hungarian state organisation that, following the liberal state and the era of liberal democracy and while of course respecting the values of Christianity, freedom and human rights, can again make the Hungarian community competitive and which adheres to and completes the unfinished tasks and unperformed duties that I have just listed. ... And so in this sense the new state that we are constructing in Hungary is an illiberal state, a non-liberal state. It does not reject the fundamental principles of liberalism such as freedom, and I could list a few more, but it does not make this ideology the central element of state organisation, but instead includes a different, special, national approach." [1] Borsoka (talk) 12:51, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Ok, let's fill the gaps: "The stars of the international analysts today are Singapore, China, India, Russia and Turkey. And I think that our political community recognized and touched on this challenge correctly several years ago and perhaps also succeeded in processing it intellectually, and if I think back on what we have done over the past four years and what we will be doing during the upcoming four years, then things can indeed be interpreted from this perspective." - Out of this, my understanding is that Hungary is already following the example of these countries and that is the plan for the years coming. The interpretation is of course everyone's own business but from the media-reaction I would say that this is a common and widespread interpretation of what Mr Orban said. --K0zka (talk) 13:18, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

So, when he writes of a Hungary which will not reject the fundamental principles of liberalism, he obviously wants to follow countries he described as not liberal democracies. All the same, please read WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. Our own interpretation is not relevant in this debate, and we should present all relevant POVs. Borsoka (talk) 13:24, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I understand those WP principles, please come up with your suggestion on how you would put it. My point is that there is something important missing from the quoted part of the article. It reads as if Hungary was criticized for building on values of Christianity, freedom etc. --K0zka (talk) 14:10, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Controversy section reads like a platform for supporters

The controversy section of this article reads objectionably like a platform for Orban supporters. Most of the section takes the form, "His critics say x, but actually not-x" I think the same basic information should be presented there, but it should be worded less tendentiously: "His critics say x. However, his supporters say/point out y. Some critics later retracted their claims."68.63.148.22 (talk) 12:49, 21 October 2014 (UTC)