Jump to content

Talk:Fascism: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Line 99: Line 99:
== Bulgarian fascism ==
== Bulgarian fascism ==


Bulgaria in the past to the present, the Bulgarian non-Turks and novel peoples have made printing exploitation assimilation and exile, Religious cultural political bans everything Bulgaria large population kaybetmş migration as a result of uygulamıştır.b of the Attack party recently gained continuity and rising fascist movements, increasing the pressure on the Turks and novels..[http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-exodus-in-1989-was-ethnic-purge-bulgarian-archives.aspx?pageID=238&nID=29853&NewsCatID=351 1989 exile Turks],[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_(political_party)Fascism Attack party] <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/193.140.219.29|193.140.219.29]] ([[User talk:193.140.219.29|talk]]) 13:29, 29 December 2014 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Bulgaria in the past to the present, the Bulgarian non-Turks and novel peoples have made printing exploitation assimilation and exile, Religious cultural political bans everything Bulgaria large population reduction migration as a result of application b of the Attack party recently gained continuity and rising fascist movements, increasing the pressure on the Turks and novels..[http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-exodus-in-1989-was-ethnic-purge-bulgarian-archives.aspx?pageID=238&nID=29853&NewsCatID=351 1989 exile Turks],[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_(political_party)Fascism Attack party] <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/193.140.219.29|193.140.219.29]] ([[User talk:193.140.219.29|talk]]) 13:29, 29 December 2014 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Revision as of 13:34, 29 December 2014

Template:Vital article

Template:Pbneutral

Template:WP1.0


Proposed text for "Political economy" section

The fascists opposed both international socialism and liberal capitalism, arguing that their views represented a third way. They claimed to provide a realistic economic alternative that was neither laissez-faire capitalism nor communism.[1] They favored corporatism and class collaboration, believing that the existence of inequality and separate social classes was beneficial (contrary to the views of socialists).[2] Fascists argued that the state had a role in mediating relations between these classes (contrary to the views of liberal capitalists).[3]

Early fascist economic policy in Italy pushed the country towards the "corporative state", with the idea of integrating the interests of all parts of the economy into a class-transcending national unity. The trade unions, which were a significant component of Italian fascism from its radical syndicalist roots, were eliminated, and “Syndical Laws” promulgated mandating that each industrial sector could have only one trade union and on employers organization to negotiate agreements, with the government acting as ‘umpire’. [4]

In most cases, fascists discouraged or banned foreign trade; fascists believed that too much international trade would make the national economy dependent on international capital, and therefore vulnerable to international economic sanctions. Economic self-sufficiency, known as autarky, was a major goal of most fascist governments.[5]

In short, fascist economics supported a state-controlled economy that accepted a mix of private and public ownership over the means of production.[6] Economic planning was applied to both the public and private sector, and the prosperity of private enterprise depended on its acceptance of synchronizing itself with the economic goals of the state.[7] Fascist economic ideology supported the profit motive, but emphasized that industries must uphold the national interest as superior to private profit.[7]

In discussing the spread of fascism beyond Italy, historian Philip Morgan states

Since the Depression was a crisis of laissez-faire capitalism and its political counterpart, parliamentary democracy, fascism could pose as the 'third-way' alternative between capitalism and Bolshevism, the model of a new European 'civilization'. As Mussolini typically put it in early 1934, "from 1929...fascism has become a universal phenomenon... The dominant forces of the 19th century, democracy, socialism, liberalism have been exhausted...the new political and economic forms of the twentieth-century are fascist'(Mussolini 1935: 32).[8]

While fascism accepted the importance of material wealth and power, it condemned materialism, which it identified as being present in both communism and capitalism, and criticized materialism for lacking acknowledgement of the role of the spirit.[9] In particular, fascists denounced capitalism not because of its competitive nature nor its support of private property which fascists supported; but due to its materialism, individualism, alleged bourgeois decadence, and alleged indifference to the nation.[10] Fascism denounced Marxism for its advocacy of materialist internationalist class identity, which fascists regarded as an attack upon the emotional and spiritual bonds of the nation and a threat to the achievement of genuine national solidarity.[11]

Fascists governments advocated resolution of domestic class conflict within a nation in order to secure national solidarity.[12] While fascism was opposed domestic class conflict, it was held that bourgeois-proletarian conflict existed primarily in national conflict between proletarian nations versus bourgeois nations.[13]

Benito Mussolini promised a "social revolution" that would "remake" the Italian people. According to Patricia Knight, this was only achieved in part.[14] The people who primarily benefited from Italian fascist social policies were members of the middle and lower-middle classes, who filled jobs in the vastly expanded government workforce, which grew from about 500,000 to 1,000,000 jobs in 1930 alone.[14] Health and welfare spending grew dramatically under Italian fascism, with welfare rising from 7% of the budget in 1930 to 20% in 1940.[15]

The Opera Nazionale Dopolavoro (OND) or "National After-work Program" was one major social welfare initiative in Fascist Italy. Created in 1925, it was the state's largest recreational organization for adults.[16] The Dopolavoro was responsible for establishing and maintaining 11,000 sports grounds, over 6,400 libraries, 800 movie houses, 1,200 theatres, and over 2,000 orchestras.[16] Membership of the Dopolavoro was voluntary, but it had high participation because of its nonpolitical nature.[16] It is estimated that, by 1936, the OND had organized 80% of salaried workers[17] and, by 1939, 40% of the industrial workforce. The sports activities proved popular with large numbers of workers. The OND had the largest membership of any of the mass Fascist organizations in Italy.[18]

The enormous success of the Dopolavoro in Fascist Italy was the key factor in Nazi Germany's creation of its own version of the Dopolavoro, the Kraft durch Freude (KdF) or "Strength through Joy" program of the Nazi government's German Labour Front, which became even more successful than the Dopolavoro.[19] KdF provided government-subsidized holidays for German workers.[20] KdF also lent its name to the original Volkswagen ("People's Car"), a state-manufactured automobile that was purportedly meant to be cheap enough to allow all German citizens to be able to own one.

While fascists promoted social welfare to ameliorate economic conditions affecting their nation or race as a whole, they did not support social welfare for egalitarian reasons. Fascists criticized egalitarianism as preserving the weak. They instead promoted social Darwinist views.[21][22]

Adolf Hitler was opposed to egalitarian and universal social welfare because, in his view, it encouraged the preservation of the degenerate and feeble.[23] While in power, the Nazis created social welfare programs to deal with the large numbers of unemployed. However, those programs were neither egalitarian nor universal, excluding many minority groups and other people whom they felt posed a threat to the future health of the German people.[24]--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 16:53, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You should mention how this differs from the existing text. I think the section should be re-written. It reads like it was written based on an individual viewpoint, then sources were found in support. For example the first source used is about the formation of the Spanish Falange in 1934. TFD (talk) 20:33, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The entire fist paragraph is copied from Economics_of_fascism#General_characteristics_of_fascist_economies, and the reference is not exclusively about the Spanish Falange, but is found in a section called "The fascist International"scroll up one paragraph to beginning of section, which starts with a discussion of Mussolini's writings from the 1920s onward in the context of a discussion of the spread of fascism in Europe, with 1934 Montreux Fascist conference being the conference addressed.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 15:39, 22 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, clearly the passage is a beard for the editor's(Ubikwit) POV(ie, fascism isn't a right wing ideology, it's left wing blah blah blah...). One just has to look at his/her other edits and comments to see a total lack of impartiality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.228.216.26 (talk) 00:31, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Berend quote

My addition by Berend was removed with a request to break up the quote. I didn't break it up specifically because it seemed to provide a concise but rather complete overview. I'm not sure either how WP:Weight plays in. In any case, I'll simply paste it below in case other editors want to weigh in regarding reinstating where it was, or in the history section, or adding specific parts back into the article. Best, Airborne84 (talk) 19:35, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ivan Berend provides an overview of Fascism as follows in its emergence in France, Germany, and Italy at the end of the 19th century:

Parallel with nationalism and communism, as a sort of deformed combination of both, a third robust ideology emerged. This ideology relied on extreme national fundamentalism and subordinated both citizens and their individual human rights to the "eternal interests" of the nation. It was hostile to other nations, aggressively demanded the rights of the nation, and rejected the existing, Western-dominated world order and values. It advocated and attempted to create a strong, authoritarian state that was intensely antiliberal and antiparliamentary. It developed a cult of charismatic leadership that drew on irrational sources for its strength and power. Rejecting class differences in the national community, it sought to establish a homogeneous, communal, collective society, which would realize a "national socialism" in its struggle against the West, against international finance, and against the society's alien elements (such as minorities and other races).[25]

It is poor style to have lengthy quotes in articles and best to merely summarize what they say. Could you please tell me what information this passage provides that is not already in the article? TFD (talk) 19:41, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
perhaps we could summarize as, Parallel with nationalism and communism, as a sort of deformed combination of both, a third robust ideology emerged...which would realize a "national socialism"... Darkstar1st (talk) 21:57, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Why? TFD (talk) 00:11, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(shrug) I'm not overly concerned with how best to shoehorn it in if there is concern. As for poor style, I agree in principle but disagree in this context. I have no doubt that the material in the passage exists throughout the article. But this provides an excellent summary of the main ideas of fascism from a reliable source. This, combined with a few other sentences, could provide a reader with an overview of what fascism is without having to rummage through the entire article. That's why I put it where it was. However, the lede does provide an overview (although perhaps not complete).
As an alternative suggestion, perhaps this could be used as a note at the bottom of the article instead of including it in the text itself? Thanks! Airborne84 (talk) 07:55, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see anything particularly noteworthy in that passage, frankly, as everything said in it is presented better in the article. Adding it would serve only to dumb down the article from its present state.
If you find anything noteworthy in the book, please find the proper context and appropriate language with which to include it.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 08:37, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.[11]"

Just because Cyprian P. Blamires says so? How is Cyprian P. Blamires' word is the gospel of what fascism is? He doesnt even have a Wiki entry. Basically you are just cherrypicking quotes about what you want fascism to be. Thats very subjective.KevinFrom (talk) 12:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The way that the policy of reliable sources work is that well-respected texts such as the World Fascism Encyclopedia that was contributed to by 500 of the world's leading fascism experts are considered reliable for facts unless better or more recent sources are found that contradict them. In this case however it's not clear whether the statement was made by Blamires or a contributor or whether it is a generally agreed fact or merely an opinion. Considering that it is sourced to p. 331 of Volumne II of the encyclopedia it could be cherry-picked. Whether true or not the degree of attention paid to it may not justify its inclusion, particularly in the lead.
If you want other editors to work with you, you should be less confrontational. I did not add the material and am no more responsible for its inclusion than you are. Let's wait and see if there are any comments supporting or opposing its inclusion.
TFD (talk) 15:07, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology

I would suggest this section is misleading as written: although the ultimate origin is Latin fasces, it suggests that the National Fascist Party named itself in order to be associated with the authority of the ancient Roman office of the Lictor when the immediate origin of the name was Mussolini's Fasci Italiani di Combattimento. The association with Roman imperial power came later. Paul S (talk) 19:14, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If you have a source to cite in reference to that point, please integrate it into the section, etc.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 02:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality

"Historians, political scientists and other scholars have long debated the exact nature of fascism, however, Led's view on this matter is 100% correct.[24]" That last part is rather odd, particularly because none of the cited sources are written by Led. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.86.252.31 (talk) 07:37, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It was vandalism, that has now been corrected. TFD (talk) 17:08, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgarian fascism

Bulgaria in the past to the present, the Bulgarian non-Turks and novel peoples have made printing exploitation assimilation and exile, Religious cultural political bans everything Bulgaria large population reduction migration as a result of application b of the Attack party recently gained continuity and rising fascist movements, increasing the pressure on the Turks and novels..1989 exile Turks,Attack party — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.140.219.29 (talk) 13:29, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Philip Morgan, Fascism in Europe, 1919-1945, New York Tayolor & Francis 2003, p. 168
  2. ^ "The Doctrine of Fascism". Enciclopedia Italiana. Rome: Istituto Giovanni Treccani. 1932. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help) "[Fascism] affirms the irremediable, fruitful and beneficent inequality of men"
  3. ^ Calvin B. Hoover, The Paths of Economic Change: Contrasting Tendencies in the Modern World, The American Economic Review, Vol. 25, No. 1, Supplement, Papers and Proceedings of the Forty-seventh Annual Meeting of the American Economic Association. (March, 1935), pp. 13-20.
  4. ^ Roland Sarti, Fascism and the Industrial Leadership in Italy, 1919-40: A Study in the Expansion of Private Power Under Fascism, 1968
  5. ^ Alexander J. De Grand, Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, Routledge, 1995. pp. 60-61
  6. ^ Robert Millward. Private and public enterprise in Europe: energy, telecommunications and transport, 1830–1990. Cambridge, England, UK: Cambridge University Press, p. 178.
  7. ^ a b Cyprian Blamires. World Fascism: A Historical Encyclopedia, Volume 1. Santa Barbara, California, USA: ABC-CLIO, 2006. p. 189.
  8. ^ Fascism in Europe, 1919-1945Philip Morgan, Fascism in Europe, 1919-1945, New York Tayolor & Francis 2003
  9. ^ Peter Davies, Derek Lynch. The Routledge Companion to Fascism and the Far Right. Routledge, 2002. p. 103.
  10. ^ Robert O. Paxton. The Anatomy of Fascism. Vintage Books edition. Vintage Books, 2005. pp. 10.
  11. ^ John Breuilly. Nationalism and the State. University of Chicago Press edition. University of Chicago, 1994. pp. 290.
  12. ^ Cite error: The named reference Griffin, Roger 1991 pp. 222 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  13. ^ Cite error: The named reference minneapolis was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  14. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference kp72 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  15. ^ Cite error: The named reference experience was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  16. ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference pauley3 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  17. ^ Cite error: The named reference organizations was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  18. ^ Cite error: The named reference aristotle99 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  19. ^ Cite error: The named reference pauley100 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  20. ^ Cite error: The named reference community was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  21. ^ Cite error: The named reference egalitarianism was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  22. ^ Cite error: The named reference university101 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  23. ^ Cite error: The named reference hitler was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  24. ^ Cite error: The named reference evans102 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  25. ^ Berend, Ivan T. (1998). Decades of Crisis: Central and Eastern Europe Before World War II. Berkeley and Los Angeles: University of California Press. p. 70. ISBN 0-520-22901-0.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fascism&oldid=640090203"