Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 July 20: Difference between revisions
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:'''Comment'''. See the section "Words implying a value judgement" in [[Wikipedia:Words to avoid]]. [[User:Intangible|Intangible]] 18:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC) |
:'''Comment'''. See the section "Words implying a value judgement" in [[Wikipedia:Words to avoid]]. [[User:Intangible|Intangible]] 18:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC) |
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::'''Comment'''. hat is pure sophistry, as has already been pointed out to you on other pages for CfDs. Far right has an obvious and neutral meaning in the French context (and in several others, especially those of 19th and early 20th century [[Latin Europe]]); ''for Chrissake, it was a self-designation!'' [[User:Dahn|Dahn]] 18:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC) |
::'''Comment'''. hat is pure sophistry, as has already been pointed out to you on other pages for CfDs. Far right has an obvious and neutral meaning in the French context (and in several others, especially those of 19th and early 20th century [[Latin Europe]]); ''for Chrissake, it was a self-designation!'' [[User:Dahn|Dahn]] 18:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC) |
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:::'''Comment'''. This is an English language wikipedia. [[User:Intangible|Intangible]] 18:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong oppose''' per Tazmaniacs and per common sense. 18:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC) |
*'''Strong oppose''' per Tazmaniacs and per common sense. 18:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 18:57, 20 July 2006
July 20
NEW NOMINATIONS
Ambiguous. Those leagues that were nationalist can go into Category:French nationalist leagues, those that were fascist can go into Category:French fascist leagues. Intangible 18:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose.Here we go again. Intangible is trolling around. See here for a non exhaustive list of his recent edits and Afd. The category "French far right leagues" is in accordance with the Far right leagues article, based on the article. "Far right" is actually lot less ambiguous than the categories proposed by Intangible, since many historians disagree on whether these leagues were or weren't "fascists". This debate is of course linked to the alleged existence of a "French Fascism", a thesis supported in particular by Zeev Sternhell. No historian doubts that they were nationalist, anti-Semitic and militarists; the question rather is if the fascist rituals and appearance adopted by them (Roman salute, etc.) was only an outward appearance or rather a true fascist organization. Thus, the category "far right" leaves this debate open and lets each one make up his own mind on the subject. Tazmaniacs 18:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. See the section "Words implying a value judgement" in Wikipedia:Words to avoid. Intangible 18:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. hat is pure sophistry, as has already been pointed out to you on other pages for CfDs. Far right has an obvious and neutral meaning in the French context (and in several others, especially those of 19th and early 20th century Latin Europe); for Chrissake, it was a self-designation! Dahn 18:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. This is an English language wikipedia. Intangible 18:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. hat is pure sophistry, as has already been pointed out to you on other pages for CfDs. Far right has an obvious and neutral meaning in the French context (and in several others, especially those of 19th and early 20th century Latin Europe); for Chrissake, it was a self-designation! Dahn 18:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Strong oppose per Tazmaniacs and per common sense. 18:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
"Manchester, England" is ugly and sounds American. No other Manchester has as significant a musical presence. There is precedent with Category:Music from Liverpool, renamed from Category:Music from Liverpool, England on March 16, 2006. —Wereon 16:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
This category is just POV. The majority of historians have been alleged to be nationalist or marxist or whatever by somebody, most often by sombebody with a political agenda as well. For npov reasons, only historians that self-identify as nationalist could be added to this category. Of the three entries in the cat, Ram Swarup is not a historian and K.S. Lal has never self-identified as a nationalist. (Though he may have been alleged of being nationalist by others with a political agenda, because Lal did not sucribe to the negationist revisionism of indian medieval history, not because he was a nationalist.) The only one in the category that could maybe be described as nationalist is Goel, but I don't know if he self-identified as a nationalist, and sources for this claim are missing. Bottom line, a category "Indian nationalists" should be more than enough, for these people that self-identify as nationalists. (There is also not a category "Indian marxist historians".) --Msiev 15:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
"Based in X" is the wording used by all but one sub-cats of Category:Organisations by city (Ex: Category:Organizations based in Philadelphia). Renaming is proposed for reasons of consistency. Kurieeto 14:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Rename per nom. David Kernow 17:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Keep as redirect to Category:Polioptilidae. -- ProveIt (talk) 14:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
ProveIt added the to speedy to amend "Course" to "courses", but the correct form is "clubs and courses". Twittenham 14:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Rename as above. Twittenham 14:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Rename per nom. -- ProveIt (talk) 14:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Rename per nom. David Kernow 17:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't seem very useful. --SPUI (T - C) 13:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Think tanks by country
Proposal is to rename the following Think tanks by country categories to use the "based in X" wording of their parent, Category:Organizations (Ex Category:Organisations based in Italy). The current names are ambiguous for several reasons, including the "of" wording leaving it ambiguous if the think tank is an arm of the state. The "based in X" wording is preferable for reasons of clarity and consistency. The following renamings are proposed:
- Category:Australian think tanks to Category:Think tanks based in Australia
- Category:Think tanks in the United States to Category:Think tanks based in the United States
- Category:Think tanks of Pakistan to Category:Think tanks based in Pakistan
- Category:Strategic think tanks of Pakistan to Category:Strategic think tanks based in Pakistan
- Category:Political and economic think tanks of Pakistan to Category:Political and economic think tanks based in Pakistan
- Category:Political and economic think tanks of the United Kingdom to Category:Political and economic think tanks based in the United Kingdom
--Kurieeto 13:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
and Category:Entertainers who died in their 20s,Category:Entertainers who died in their 30s, Category:Entertainers who died in their 40s. Far too specific, could lead to categories such as "People named Tim who died young" or "Entertainers under 5'6" " - Trevor MacInnis (Talk | Contribs) 11:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Delete all per nom. ReeseM 14:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
and
non-notable podcast/website/group of covergirls[/networks]. Part of astroturfing campaign, see WP:AN/I. Mak (talk) 04:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Delete [both] good grief BigDT 05:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Delete [both], astroturfing, non-notable. Antandrus (talk) 05:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Delete both per nom. David Kernow 06:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Delete both per nom. ReeseM 14:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Duplicate of Category:British Columbia actors. I recategorized the only article that was in the category. --Usgnus 04:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The professor categories were renamed/merged into academics categories. This category contains only one article. Merge into Category:Singaporean academics and keep as a category redirect. Hawkestone 03:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Merge and redirect per nom. David Kernow 06:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The official website[1] clearly shows that the name is the Charles S. Roberts Awards, and is abbreviated as CSR rather than CR. --Groggy Dice 03:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Support (nominator) Earlier, I'd put this one in for a speedy to capitalize "award," but I told Stbalbach about it and he inserted the "S." into the proposal, which got it objected to. Nevertheless, I agree with him about what the name should be. (Stbablbach has also started a rename proposal on the main article.) --Groggy Dice 03:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Support, on the assumption the article rename succeeds. --Dhartung | Talk 04:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Support with Dhartung's condition. --Usgnus 04:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Support. I have an email from the Prez of CSRA saying the correct name is CSRA in case it's needed. -- Stbalbach 04:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Support. I'll back that up with personal experience with the organization.--Mike Selinker 06:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Rename to the convention used in Category:National symbols by nation. (The only other exception is the Northern Irish category, but that has a much broader range of content than all the others and I am not sure what should be done with it.)ReeseM 02:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Rename as above. ReeseM 02:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Rename per nom. Re Category:Northern Ireland symbols, Category:National symbols of Northern Ireland...? (So far as I'm aware, Northern Ireland is a nation alongside England, Scotland and Wales in the United Kingdom...?) David Kernow 06:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Have a look at the contents. The other categories contain only national symbols, but the Northern Ireland one contains things that aren't national symbols in the loosest possible sense, such as sports club badges. ReeseM 14:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
A very simple and non-controversial rename: the project changed its title, we need the category changed to match. —Mira 01:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Adding Category:WikiProject Catholicism 101 articles to Category:WikiProject Catholicism articles. —Mira 02:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Question. What about Category:WikiProject Catholicism 101 articles? --Usgnus 01:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- That one is tied to a template (Template:Project Catholicism 101) that is currently at WP:TFD. I wasn't sure if it should be messed with until the TFD is over. But I suppose if it's okay, then I'll add that one here. —Mira 02:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Rename both per nom. --Usgnus 02:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Rename both per nom. David Kernow 06:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
They contain identical information. Jandek only releases on Corwood Industries, and they don't represent any other artists. Cúchullain t/c 01:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Wait, you forgot "The Units"! ~ ~ trialsanderrors 02:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
WikiProject participants
Per the conversation, albeit short conversation, here, these categories are up for renaming. Please help me find others and add them to the list. As I was tagging these I found out about a template for WikiProject participants to use which automatically generates categories, however, over a half of these were tagged before I found out about it. Hopefully the template can be changed to reflect this new naming convention, which will hopefully be set with this cfr. Thank you.
—Lady Aleena talk/contribs 00:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Category:Participants in WikiProjects to Category:WikiProject participants
- Category:WikiProject Anglicanism members to Category:WikiProject Anglicanism participants
- Category:WikiProject Australian sports Members to Category:WikiProject Australian sports participants
- Category:WikiProject Avatar: The Last Airbender members to Category:WikiProject Avatar: The Last Airbender participants
- Category:WikiProject Blackadder Members to Category:WikiProject Blackadder participants
- Category:WikiProject British TV shows members to Category:WikiProject British TV shows participants
- Category:User WikiProject Business Economics to Category:WikiProject Business Economics participants
- Category:WikiProject Catholicism members to Category:WikiProject Catholicism participants
- Category:WikiProject Cats Members to Category:WikiProject Cats participants
- Category:Participants in WikiProject Chemistry to Category:WikiProject Chemistry participants
- Category:WikiProject Colorado Members to Category:WikiProject Colorado participants
- Category:WikiProject Computer and video games members to Category:WikiProject Computer and video games participants
- Category:WikiProject Contract bridge to Category:WikiProject Contract bridge participants
- Category:WikiProject Cycling Members to Category:WikiProject Cycling participants
- Category:WikiProject Dad's Army Members to Category:WikiProject Dad's Army participants
- Category:WikiProject Doctor Who Members to Category:WikiProject Doctor Who participants
- Category:Participants in WikiProject Education in Canada to Category:WikiProject Education in Canada participants
- Category:Members of WikiProject Ethiopia to Category:WikiProject Ethiopia participants
- Category:Users involved with WikiProject FBI to Category:WikiProject FBI participants
- Category:WikiProject Fascism members to Category:WikiProject Fascism participants
- Category:WikiProject Fawlty Towers Members to Category:WikiProject Fawlty Towers participants
- Category:Participants in WikiProject Films to Category:WikiProject Films participants
- Category:WikiProject Final Fantasy members to Category:WikiProject Final Fantasy participants
- Category:User FY to Category:WikiProject Former Yugoslavia participants
- Category:WikiProject Graffiti members to Category:WikiProject Graffiti participants
- Category:WikiProject Hindu mythology Members to Category:WikiProject Hindu mythology participants
- Category:WikiProject Hinduism Members to Category:WikiProject Hinduism participants
- Category:WikiProject Hip Hop members to Category:WikiProject Hip Hop participants
- Category:WikiProject Hitchhikier's Guide to the Galaxy Members to Category:WikiProject Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy participants
Comment: Sorry to butt in the middle of this list, but this one should be renamed just to fix the typo. It's the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. --JohnDBuell 02:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Category:WikiProject Horror members to Category:WikiProject Horror participants
- Category:WikiProject Inheritance Trilogy members to Category:WikiProject Inheritance Trilogy participants
- Category:WikiProject International development members to Category:WikiProject International development participants
- Category:Participants in WikiProject Jazz to Category:WikiProject Jazz participants
- Category:Users of WikiProject Lakes to Category:WikiProject Lakes participants
- Category:Participants in WikiProject Linkification to Category:WikiProject Linkification participants
- Category:WikiProject Louisville Members to Category:WikiProject Louisville participants
- Category:WikiProject Macintosh members to Category:WikiProject Macintosh participants
- Category:WikiProject Magic: The Gathering members to Category:WikiProject Magic: The Gathering participants
- Category:WikiProject Mars Spacecraft to Category:WikiProject Mars Spacecraft participants
- Category:Members of Team Peerage to Category:WikiProject Peerage participants
- Category:WikiProject Montenegro Member to Category:WikiProject Montenegro participants
- Category:WikiProject MusicBrainz members to Category:WikiProject MusicBrainz participants
- Category:WikiProject NBL Member to Category:WikiProject NBL participants
- Category:NC State Routes WikiProject Members to Category:WikiProject North Carolina State Highways participants
- Category:WikiProject National Health Service members to Category:WikiProject National Health Service participants
- Category:New Jersey State and County Routes WikiProject Members to Category:WikiProject New Jersey State and County Routes participants
- Category:Participants in WikiProject Opera to Category:WikiProject Opera participants
- Category:Participants in WikiProject EastEnders to Category:WikiProject EastEnders participants
- Category:Participants in WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities to Category:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities participants
- Category:Wikiproject Perth Member to Category:WikiProject Perth participants
- Category:WikiProject Philadelphia members to Category:WikiProject Philadelphia participants
- Category:WikiProject Physics Members to Category:WikiProject Physics participants
- Category:WikiProject Politics Members to Category:WikiProject Politics participants
- Category:Members of Project Presidents to Category:WikiProject U.S. Presidents participants
- Category:Participants in WikiProject Protected areas to Category:WikiProject Protected areas participants
- Category:Queen WikiProject members to Category:WikiProject Queen participants
- Category:WikiProject Running Members to Category:WikiProject Running participants
- Category:WikiProject Saints members to Category:WikiProject Saints participants
- Category:WikiProject Scouting members to Category:WikiProject Scouting participants
- Category:Participants in WikiProject Seattle to Category:WikiProject Seattle participants
- Category:User WPSerbia to Category:WikiProject Serbia participants
- Category:Participants of WikiProject Soil to Category:WikiProject Soil participants
- Category:Members of WikiProject Soviet Union to Category:WikiProject Soviet Union participants
- Category:WikiProject Star Trek Members to Category:WikiProject Star Trek participants
- Category:WikiProject Star Wars members to Category:WikiProject Star Wars participants
- Category:Participants in WikiProject Stargate to Category:WikiProject Stargate participants
- Category:Members of WikiProject Utah to Category:WikiProject Utah participants
- Category:Wikiproject Vancouver Member to Category:WikiProject Vancouver participants
- Category:Participants in WikiProject Voting systems to Category:WikiProject Voting systems participants
- Category:Washington State Highways WikiProject Members to Category:WikiProject Washington State Highways participants
- Category:WikiProject Webcomics members to Category:WikiProject Webcomics participants
- Category:WikiProject Michigan members to Category:WikiProject Michigan participants
- Category:WikiProject Transformers Members to Category:WikiProject Transformers participants
- Category:Members of WikiProject Yemen to Category:WikiProject Yemen participants
- Category:WikiProject Zoroastrianism Members to Category:WikiProject Zoroastrianism participants
These I put up in Speedy as a capitalization fix, but they are now here in the general pool. - LA @ 06:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Category:WikiProject Archaeology Participants to Category:WikiProject Archaeology participants
- Category:WikiProject Architecture Participants to Category:WikiProject Architecture participants
- Category:WikiProject Arts Participants to Category:WikiProject Arts participants
- Category:WikiProject Hersheypark Participants to Category:WikiProject Hersheypark participants
- Category:WikiProject Martial Arts Participants to Category:WikiProject Martial Arts participants
- Category:WikiProject Novels Participants to Category:WikiProject Novels participants
- Category:WikiProject Sports Olympics Participants to Category:WikiProject Sports Olympics participants
- Category:WikiProject Roller Coasters Participants to Category:WikiProject Roller Coasters participants
- Category:WikiProject Television Participants to Category:WikiProject Television participants
- Category:WikiProject U.S. Roads Participants to Category:WikiProject U.S. Roads participants
Discussion
- STRONG OPPOSE this mass tagging was brought up a mere 3 days ago and decided by merely 3 people who didn't bother to notify the projects. I think the projects should be free to name their own cats how ever they wish. So what if they're different? This is not for some 3-person oligarchy to decide, it's for the projects themselves to decide. Rlevse 00:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose in the case of Scouting. As organized youth movements, one is a member, not a participant. Chris 00:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Suggestion. Allow 4 options: WikiProject X participants, WikiProject X members, Participants in WikiProject X, and Members of WikiProject X. --Usgnus 01:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Agree per nom. Look at the Chemistry and Physics ones. Quite different. There should be uniformity and it really does not matter what uniformity. --Bduke 01:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose at least on the part of WikiProject Catholicism. We have members, not participants. As for others, go by what they use on their main page. If the page says members, use members. If it says participants, use participants. —Mira 01:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose trying to apply strict one-cat-fits-most description; I would strongly support having several options, such as what Usgnus suggested. --Stephane Charette 01:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose per Rlevse, but also, it should be the project's choice and it really isn't worth all the trouble to change it from member to participant, because they are just about the same thing. Don't get all techinical either, with the member means blah blah blah and participant means blah blah blah because in the end it really should be the project's choice. Darthgriz98 01:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose This should be an RfC anyway, not a CfD. --JohnDBuell 01:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Support This is an encyclopedia, and consistency is important even in cases like this. I personally don't care if its "participants" or "members", but all the categories should follow the same naming convention. --musicpvm 03:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Qualified support The WikiProject template uses "participants," and I think consistency is important. Having said that, I think "members" is a more accurate description than "participants." All who participate in a WikiProject are members, but not all who are members participate. Fishhead64 03:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose Consistency in categorizations in the Wikipedia space, in comparison with the Main space, isn't really that important, as most mainstream users won't ever notice them anyway. Further, this change is pretty much splitting hairs... members or participants... seems like a lot of work to make almost no change. — Stevie is the man! Talk | Work 05:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Support. I'd be willing to be part of the four-person oligarchy. :^) --Mike Selinker 06:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- I Oppose force-fitting all "member" vs. "participant" descriptions into one "participant" mold. I'll confess in advance that I have far too many other things to do than to read all the deliberations and rationales that led to this dust-up, but at first AND second glance it looks like silly busywork, distracting many innocent people and sucking up their valuable cycles without adding real value. I believe I wrote in another debate once upon a time that most Wikipedia users are not power users, and the mass of overlapping wiki classification systems such as "categories" is alien, unusable, and irrelevant to anyone but a power user. So now, to that tiny minority who in a previous life argued over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, I say: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." (Emerson) OTOH, I'd support the sponsors if they settled for the rational consistency of simply re-ordering the words in cat titles such that, if the title includes "Wikiproject" and project_name, "Wikiproject" is the first word. (Or else project_name is first. Either method has equally good benefits. Pick one and apply to all.) --Kkken 06:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Mild support. While it's not so relevant to be maintained for user-space, consistency is generall A Good Thing. I fail to see a big deal in "member" vs. "participant" naming. Thus, I'm of the same opinion as User:Stevietheman, but I'll support provided someone else does the job :-). Duja 07:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Currently, Category:Participants in WikiProjects is impossible to usefully navigate, due to the lack of naming consistency. It does take some work, sure, but the problem will only grow worse, and the task larger, the longer we let this pink elephant sit in the corner. I say deal with it now, so we can rest easy in the future. I'd be fine with allowing for "Wikiproject (NAME) (participants/members)," but that's probably the only inconsistency I'm supporting. At the very least, we need to get rid of all these "Participants in Wikiproject" and "Name Wikiproject" and other such sore thumbs. Luna Santin 07:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Responses by LA @ 09:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I only allowed three days of discussion in naming conventions, but after reading the few responses I got, I acted on my own and was being bold.
- I have been accused of not giving the projects notice, a CfR IS notice.
- The problem with different naming styles is the fact that they are hard to read, strain the eye, and make the parent category of all WikiProject particpant categories look messy.
- A CfR is a lot stronger than a RfC. I have put something on RfC and gotten so few responses that I don't feel RfC is worth it. A CfR on the other hand gets a lot more attention, which is what these categories desperately need.
- Fishhead64 said "All who participate in a WikiProject are members, but not all who are members participate." Shouldn't participation be stressed? Why be part of a WikiProject without participating in it, even if it is behind the scenes cleaning up articles, creating templates, and other general maintenance?
- Kkken, this may seem to be busywork since it is not part of the article name space, however, this area is where I feel most comfortable. I may have been one who argued over the angles standing on the head of a pin, but it seems that it would probably be a fun arguement.
- This is also to help with the creation of templates. If we have a firm naming convention that is the same for all of these categories, it will take a few moments less time to think of a name for this type of category in future WikiProjects.
- Support I agree that standardisation is a desirable feature of Wikipedia even if it is 'behind the scenes'. --Mcginnly 11:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Split vote in favour of making the sore thumb changes as a first step, that is: a consistent sequence of words, starting "WikiProject"; and using lower case for "members/participants/whatever". Against standardising members/participants/whatever at the same time, since we can take that up as a separate debate about the merits of options. --Mereda 09:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Comment I just don't get it - why is user space such a BIG deal - I can understand the need for consistency across articles and across article categories, but why do so many people want to mold user space to fit what THEY think is necessary? This isn't the only time this calendar year that something like this has come up, and caused a debate to both sides. --JohnDBuell 11:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose this proposal, but would support a more flexible naming scheme of the form "WikiProject Foo [members/participants]" as per the project's own choice. Standard naming is important, but not so important here that it's worth stepping on the projects' toes in a major way. Kirill Lokshin 12:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
CommentJohndBuell hit it on the head--this is another case of what is epidemic on Wiki, a few people determing what they think the masses need. Like a few months ago when some category person decided that it's okay for him to decide that having abbreviation ABC in a cat name is okay but not abbrev XYZ when both were equally obscure. I do agree that the cats with things like a captial 'M' in Members, 'Participants in....', etc need fixed. The problem with the way this came is lack of notice and people don't have time to read all the behind-the-scenes stuff on wiki. It doesn't matter how active a member is, they're still a member. As for template making, we make our own. Projects still should be able to pick their own category names. Rlevse 13:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)