Talk:Homeopathy

Homeopathy and hormesis

I have identified two papers discussing how homeopathy might actually be a subset of hormesis [1] and how it might be able to be "integrated into mainstream biomedical assessment and clinical practice." [2] I think it is OK to add this to the article because Human & Experimental Toxicology is a respectable journal with a decent impact factor, but I want to get some feedback on whether there is consensus on adding information sourced to these papers first. Everymorning talk to me 22:03, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Nope. We don't, per WP:MEDRS, base content on single primary-source articles. Where is the evidence that anyone but the authors consider these articles significant? AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:08, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, I thought that, since they didn't describe original research or results, then they were, in a sense, review articles and therefore were compliant with MEDRS, but evidently this may not be the case. Everymorning talk to me 02:50, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I think you are correct.These articles dont describe original research or results, then they are review articles and therefore are compliant with MEDRS. --Neb46545 (talk) 03:32, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Except that they are two different things, and shouldn't be conflated. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 03:39, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

They will not if one uses the sources as MEDRS dictates.--Neb46545 (talk) 03:51, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd hardly call this [3] a 'review' - having looked at it, I'd say that 'speculation' would be a better description. It cites nothing resembling a description of any specific treatment for anything. It also seems to be based on an assumption entirely contrary to current understanding of homoeopathic 'remedies' in that it states that they operate in the low-dose range. It has been amply demonstrated that to the contrary, homoeopathic 'remedies' repeatedly diluted in the normal manner contain no 'dose' whatsoever. And regardless of whether this speculation complied with WP:MEDRS or not, we still have no evidence that anyone but the authors take the suggestion that hormesis and homeopathy are in any meaningful sense connected seriously. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:29, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Homeopathy+and+hormesis&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=SE55VP2sFMaBsQTDtIEQ&ved=0CB0QgQMwAA I think that there is evidence that "hormesis and homeopathy are in any meaningful sense connected seriously"--Neb46545 (talk) 04:45, 29 November 2014 (UTC),

Would not use, per WP:WEIGHT. I see no indication that this has been widely accepted (4 cites by google scholar, two self-cites, one self published book and one foreign language dissertation). The actual text appears to be nothing but speculation how it might work, and a "note" in one of the article stating "Some forms of homeopathy claim that clinical and biological effects occur when dilutions are made beyond Avogardro’s number. Clearly these are not hormetic effects..." basically seals the deal about how useless it is, as homeopathy generally requires high dilution past this level. Yobol (talk) 04:52, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

This is nonsense. Hormesis refers to low doses, homeopathy uses ZERO doses...none of the active ingredient left at all. The effect of serial dilutions is to leave (statistically) less than one molecule of the active ingredient left - ZERO amounts of it. Hormesis requires a significant amount of the substance to be present in order to trigger the reaction to it in the body without providing enough to do serious damage. If you look at the very top of our article on hormesis, there is a graph of stimulation/inhibition versus dose - and you'll note that the curve is below the line for very low doses...so even if homeopathy were to be applied in lesser dilutions where some of the active ingredient remains, hormesis would predict that it would have no effect. So, no....homeopathy isn't a "subset" - it's an entirely different thing and it's claims are actually contradictory to those of hormesis. So this is nonsense, and any suggestion otherwise is WP:SYNTH and WP:OR and doesn't bear consideration without WP:MEDRS-grade sources to back it up...which you evidently don't have. SteveBaker (talk) 13:50, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Leaving aside that those are principally speculative commentaries rather than proper review articles, and the issues with MEDRS and WP:NPOV (especially WP:WEIGHT) compliance already identified, it strikes me as immediately obvious that neither article actually draws the conclusion that homeopathy is "a subset of hormesis". In other words, even if those sources were acceptable, they wouldn't support the proposed addition to the Wikipedia article.

The first paper, Oberbaum et al., lists five major differences between hormesis and homeopathy in its abstract – a far-from-exhaustive list, incidentally – and then suggests (for no particularly good reason) the someone should try introducing homeopathic methods (like the magic bottle-whacking) into hormesis-based experiments to see if it can make hormesis more potent.

The second paper, Calabrese and Jonas, speculates that some fraction of homeopathic practice might work through hormesis-based effects; again, even its abstract notes that the relevant doses associated with hormesis are measurable and significant, "...unlike most forms of homeopathy." TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:46, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Jonas of course is a believer. There is a homeopathist called Joette Calabrese: I wonder if she is related to Edward of that ilk? Guy (Help!) 00:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I am tired of explaining to homeopathy believers why hormesis does not validate homoeopathy. We have an article: hormesis. Read it. Look at the graphs. Pay particular attention to what happens to the dose-response relationship as dose tends to zero. Compare and contrast this with the homeopathy claim that dilution increases potency. For bonus marks, read and understand bioavailability. Guy (Help!) 00:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

You can personally believe whatever you want about the above reviews - ( non sense etc) however they are published in high quality sources and a serious and unbiased encyclopedia should report their point of view, Not as a prominent view of course - but as something which exists in high quality scientific literature. --Neb46545 (talk) 05:41, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

They are, however, written by proponents, and clearly have not changed the scientific consensus view. Wikipedia is not an exercise in mining every single statement ever made for or against something. Guy (Help!) 12:53, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Human & Experimental Toxicology is a low-impact venue (in the bottom quartile, which puts it into the long tail of scientific publications). It's not that it's necessarily an out-and-out bad journal, but no researcher goes out and buys rounds of drinks to celebrate "Our paper got into Hum. Exp. Toxicol!", either. A bit of speculative wishful in its pages doesn't a notable occurrence make. In other words, even if (arguendo) we were to set aside RS (or MEDRS) concerns, we thoroughly fail to clear the bar of WP:UNDUE. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:10, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

It should also be pointed out that the abstract for the first cited article states that "hormesis is potentially a subset of homeopathy", not that "homeopathy is potentially a subset of hormesis", a simple twist of words which implies the accepted validity of homeopathy - an assumption which is unsubstantiated. It is also important to recognize that papers such as these are suggesting putative mechanisms of action for a phenomenon which has never been demonstrated to actually exist. If properly designed, executed, and statistically treated trials can demonstrate that homeopathy actually has an effect, then it may be time to discuss the putative mechanisms of action, but not before. Discussions of alien abductions are not polluted with theories of how extraterrestrials might have been able to travel faster than the speed of light to get here; there's no place for such musings in the absence of a foregone conclusion that such phenomena actually exist. -Puddin'Head 24.9.79.14 (talk) 19:42, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Recent addition to lead

An addition to the lead claimed that Swiss Medical Weekly had reported that "a report for the Swiss government, shows homeopathy is effective, appropriate, safe and economic". I have reverted this (unfortunately I somehow managed to complete the edit before I had completed my edit summary) because it doesn't adequately summarise the discussion of this in the article. The Swiss Federal Office of Public Health has repudiated the version of the report in question, which is not the report prepared for the Swiss government but a later expanded version of it. When the original version of the report was submitted to the Swiss government 6 years earlier the "PEK" of which it was part resulted in the Swiss government withdrawing funding of homoeopathy. Additionally, the source used cannot be used to support the statement that was added to the lead per WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE as a comment from it is being used, out of context, to support a statement it doesn't actually make; the source says that the report was "proclaimed by proponents of homeopathy" as evidence for homoeopathy, and the source is highly critical of the report, describing it as "scientifically, logically and ethically flawed". Brunton (talk) 08:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Well done. The claim, endlessly recirculated by quackery apologists, is entirely false. Guy (Help!) 23:54, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Right sources

I am going to show here some sources for use in this article, for those editors who want to talk well or righteouness about homeopathy. regards.

You can use this article for a right source:

• http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/prince-charles/10433939/Prince-Charles-and-homeopathy-crank-or-revolutionary.html

--Pediainsight (talk) 20:11, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

The article above is an irrelevant appeal to authority. Opinions of the British royal family do not constitute expertise in any medical field. Notably, the article states, "Charles’s faith in alternative medicine is grounded in the teachings of the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung and German philosopher Kurt Hahn, which adhere to ancient healing processes emphasising the treatment of the patient as a whole. His speech prompted the BMA to set up an inquiry (which found, in 1986, no scientific proof that any homeopathic treatments worked), and cleaved an ideological rift between Charles and much of the medical profession that endures to this day."--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:09, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

You can use this other article for a another right source:

• http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/apr/11/world-homeopathy-awareness-week-homeopathic-preparations

--Pediainsight (talk) 15:33, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

You do not seem to sufficiently understand the source material. The cited source starts off by stating that "raising awareness of homeopathy is the quickest way to dispel any belief in it". The source goes on to unambiguously state quite forcefully that homeopathy is not only ineffective, but also that it causes harm as a result of its proponents' neglect of legitimate treatments.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:01, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I like this new source - let's use it with Jeffro's quotes. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 14:21, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

It fails MEDRS by leaps and bounds. -A1candidate 14:23, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

The article may be anti-homeopathy, but it goes into useful detail on the concepts and principles of the philosophy and give some examples of how it's used in modern society. So, the article would be helpful to add some detail to this article. Cla68 (talk) 22:40, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

It's a nice article (and very painfully accurate about the ineffectiveness of homoeopathy), but it is an opinion piece by a homeopathic skeptic at the end of the day. It can be used with that caveat. Some of the links may also be useful, however. Black Kite (talk) 23:11, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

To provide some context to my comments above, Pediainsight is a proponent of homeopathy, but does not appear to have read beyond the title of the article he's endorsing. The article rightly asserts the ineffectiveness of homeopathy, and I do not object to using the article as a source, but it doesn't "talk well or righteou[s]ness about homeopathy" in the manner inferred by Pediainsight.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:51, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I'd be wary - any proponent of homeopathy could (justifiably) cry foul with material discussing negative medical aspects sourced from the guardian. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:19, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

It would depend on how the source were used. It would not be suitable as a source for a scientific perspective, but would be entirely appropriate in a section such as Public opposition.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:40, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

An article like this can be useful when it republishes information originally taken from self-published sources. Normally, we wouldn't be able to use those sources because they're self-published, but when they get washed through a newspaper article like this, it puts the information in the form of a reliable source. I appreciate it that everyone here is stating that we're not here to take a side on the veracity of homeopathy, since WP's NPOV policy prohibits us, as WP editors, from taking a side in WP's voice in the article. Cla68 (talk) 06:18, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely - we go on what sources say and ensure we use reliable ones and weight accordingly. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:10, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

A1candidate: It doesn't matter if The Guardian fails WP:MEDRS - homeopathy fails to be medicine, after all. Marsh is a widely respected source on fraudulent claims. Guy (Help!) 23:53, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

"Indeed, Homeopaths Without Borders – a group of doubtlessly well-meaning folk – are flying into places of crisis in the developing world carrying suitcases full of homeopathic tablets that contain nothing but sugar. It is not so much Médecins Sans Frontières as Médecins Sans Medicine." Ouch. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:15, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Recent CBC news coverage on homeopathic nosodes being touted in lieu of real vaccines may be useful. [4][5] LeadSongDog come howl! 01:53, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

The topic seems to be heating up: [6][7] It appears that various provinces' Public Health Officers, heads of colleges, and Ministers of Health are taking strong positions against the licensing of these products. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:29, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

“Homeopathy has been proven to be no more effective than placebo.”

This is nonsense. Herbal medicine has been proven effective and used for thousands of years. Whoever wrote this Wikipedia page is obviously working for the pharmaceutical industries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jane955 (talk • contribs) 14:00, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Homeopathy is not herbal medicine. Also, it's not about who wrote it, but based on which sources: those are indicated by the numbers that you can find after the sentence that you quote. Darkdadaah (talk) 16:06, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

You may want to read the rest of the article to find out what homeopathy is before you defend it as something that it has nothing to do with. You may also want to look into the notion of "proof" before suggesting that herbal medicine has been proven effective.-puddin'head198.11.31.81 (talk) 16:16, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

true, this has nothing to do with herbs. This is a theory that the more diluted a medicine is (the less active ingredient there is) the more effective the treatment is. While it may be possible that herbs may play a role in some homeopathic treatments they are not the main focus.

--64.229.166.239 (talk) 07:38, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

It may be that some homeopathic 'treatments' used a herb of some kind as their starting point. However, whatever it was will be diluted by the homeopathic process to the point where there is none left - so any the connection to the original herb is gone. For that reason, you can't connect the occasional success of herbal treatments to the universal failure of homeopathy. It's an entirely unrelated subject. SteveBaker (talk) 01:55, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

JAMA

Please, use this quote for do a defense in this article about homeopathy:

An article published in the March 4, 1998, issue of JAMA observed: “For many patients suffering from chronic problems that lack a specific diagnosis, homeopathy may be an important and useful treatment option. If used within its limits, homeopathy could complement modern medicine as, ‘another tool in the bag.’”

--Pediainsight (talk) 12:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Fails WP:MEDDATE. Not a review article. -A1candidate 13:00, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Is this a review? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy#cite_note-inquiry_4504-8? No- I wonder why don't you object to its inclusion to support the statement that Homeopathy is placebo ? --MarioMarco2009 (talk) 05:20, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The quoted text ignores the context of the student submission from which it was taken, which does not claim that homeopathy is effective.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:28, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

You use this to support the sentence - homeopathy = placebo. This is not a review. --MarioMarco2009 (talk) 17:57, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

A seventeen-year-old quote cherry-picked from a short opinion letter in the medical students' section of JAMA (msJAMA) isn't really the sort of high-quality source we're looking for. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:35, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

More particularly, the letter merely summarizes the claims of homeopathy - it offers no evidence of any kind to support these claims. The current introduction on the active Wikipedia page already acknowledges these claims and offers appropriate citations. Regardless of the (low) quality of the JAMA letter, it doesn't offer any value to the current Wikipedia article. - Puddin'head198.11.28.36 (talk) 18:29, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Aside from the fact that this kind of quotation serves little purpose in the article (especially in the lead), Pediainsight has a habit of copying material from literature published by the Watch Tower Society (Jehovah's Witnesses). His quote here, including his introduction to the JAMA quote, is actually lifted from the journal, Awake! of 22 October 2000, page 9. It states:

An article published in the March 4, 1998, issue of JAMA observed: “For many patients suffering from chronic problems that lack a specific diagnosis, homeopathy may be an important and useful treatment option. If used within its limits, homeopathy could complement modern medicine as, ‘another tool in the bag.’”

It is a direct copy and paste from that source, and Pediainsight should say where he got it rather than giving incomplete details about the source he claims to have found it in.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:29, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, and Pediainsight has alreasy been given the standard AE warnings; I suggest that he/she stops doing this, or a topic ban will be the inevitable result. Black Kite (talk) 00:31, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), of November 11, 1998, observed: “Alternative medical therapies, functionally defined as interventions neither taught widely in medical schools nor generally available in US hospitals, have attracted increased national attention from the media, the medical community, governmental agencies, and the public.”

What do you think about if we use this comment or content on the article? --Pediainsight (talk) 05:24, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

First, this quote addresses the broad and ill-defined vacuum of "alternative medicine" and not any particulars of homeopathy. "Alternative" medicine is simply medicine which has not been shown to work or, in many cases, has been shown not to work. Second, it posits an appeal to popularity in an effort to substantiate a tautology - in other words, it suggests that, although "alternative" medicine is defined as 'alternative' because it is not acknowledged as effective by those who practice evidence based medicine, it has attracted attention from the media, the government, and the public. No one denies any of this. The question is, why should anyone care? It's no different than stating that the Kardashians are defined as vapid twits, but they attract attention from the media and the public. The statement is undeniably true, but it doesn't offer any substance that establishes the value of the Kardashians, let alone homeopathy. - Puddin'head198.11.28.36 (talk) 06:16, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

This latest quote 'supplied' by Pediainsight, including his introductory text, is copied verbatim from the same issue of Awake! (22 October 2000) as his prior attempt, but this time from page 3. Because Pediainsight is simply quote-mining JW literature that has in turn quote-mined JAMA, Pediainsight is paying no respect to the context of the material he's citing. The quote is not useful. Pediainsight, you have been told previously that you are supposed to say where you read it rather than dishonestly quote-mining JW literature.--Jeffro77 (talk) 06:40, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Pediainsight, you may also want to take a moment to ask yourself: "is this REALLY the best evidence that I can find - after 219 years - to support the notion that homeopathy is any more than a suggestion that Mr. Snuffleupagus actually exists?". I appreciate that such a statement may be perceived as offensive, but that is not my intent. I am only trying to point out the fact that the Wikipedia article, as it stands, simply reflects the aggregate best available evidence. The cherry-picking of poorly conceived quotes doesn't do anything to contradict 219 years of failure, particularly when that failure is coupled to an utter void of any plausible mechanism by which one could expect anything other than said manifest failure. - Puddin'head198.11.28.36 (talk) 06:50, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

If homeopathy do not works, why is working now the Royal London Hospital for Integrated Medicine and others homeopathic hospitals in U.K, in Mexico, India, and why worked other hospitals in the past, in other countries on XIX - XX centuries? --Pediainsight (talk) 07:11, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

This is not a forum for personal debate on whether homeopathy works. Wikipedia, as a matter of policy, bases content on published reliable sources - and by policy, the appropriate sources for medical content are review articles in reputable peer-reviewed scientific journals, and similar sources of recognised academic status. And the consensus amongst such sources is overwhelming. They state that homeopathy has no more effect than a placebo, and accordingly this article will say the same thing. Wikipedia policy is not open to negotiation here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:17, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

It is overwhelming ----------- if you do not count and of course edit out all reliable sources which don't support the notion that homeopathy has no more effect than a placebo Then yes ---you are right. .--MarioMarco2009 (talk) 04:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Homeopathic hospitals

Please improve this section and introduce it on the article:

In India, Mexico and U.K are working homeopathic hospitals. In U.K. there are four homeopathic hospitals; two are The Royal London Hospital for Integrated Medicine and The Glasgow hospital built in 1999.

--Pediainsight (talk) 07:44, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Not an improvement. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:50, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Details about India and Mexico not in cited sourced, but that is essentially unimportant, since the existence of an institution or product is not evidence of the effectiveness of the product or service. The existence of homeopathic hospitals is already mentioned in the article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:24, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

As well, it's a very selective (mis)use of the cited source. The linked article appears mostly to be about how the number of homeopathic hospitals in the UK is dwindling due to sharply declining funding and homeopathy's (deservedly) poor reputation. In particular, the Glasgow facility has soft-pedaled its association with homeopathy (renaming itself from a "Homeopathic Hospital" to a "Centre for Integrative Care"), and offers a range of complementary and conventional medical treatments. The article discusses how adding further non-homeopathy facilities to the hospital's offerings (a chronic pain center) is one way that they might be able to keep their doors open. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:46, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Therefore your ideal readers should not know that "In U.K. there are four homeopathic hospitals; two are The Royal London Hospital for Integrated Medicine and The Glasgow hospital built in 1999" ? Is this irrelevant in a article about homeopathy ? --MarioMarco2009 (talk) 04:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

It's not necessary in the lead, and certainly not in a manner that takes the cited sourceas a quoted sound bite taken out of context. The article expresses doubt about the future of the hospital, which probably wouldn't continue to exist if it does not introduce valid medical services. The existence of homeopathic hospitals is already indicated in the article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:58, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

So the readers do not need to know specifically --- that 4 homeopathic hospitals exist? I wonder why? --MarioMarco2009 (talk) 05:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The number of such hospitals in the UK certainly doesn't need to mentioned in the lead, as it is undue weight to a particular location, and intended as a misleading endorsement of homeopathy. Wikipedia is not a directory, and doesn't need to indicate the specific number of such facilities in any particular locale.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:04, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

It could be included in the body of the article - Undue weight as "intended as a misleading endorsement of homeopathy." ? You must be kidding me. Only in this talk page stating facts can be regarded as giving ...Undue weight and or "intended as a misleading endorsement of homeopathy-- It seems that you are worrying that some readers might be thinking - hey they are people who go to 2 homeopathic hospitals in the UK-- Maybe homeopathy works or they are crazy? --MarioMarco2009 (talk) 05:11, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

You are attempting to shift the goalposts. I quite clearly stated that it doesn't belong in the lead. The existence of homeopathic hospitals is already indicated in the article. The specific number is trivial.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:19, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I suggested its inclusion in the body of the article. The number of the hospitals is trivial? I think it is reasonable the readers to know about homeopathy practice in detail in an article about homeopathy and not to be ignorant. --MarioMarco2009 (talk) 05:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Another of the reasons that "the readers do not need to know specifically --- that 4 homeopathic hospitals exist" in the UK is that they don't. The Liverpool hospital closed in 1976 [8], being replaced by the Liverpool Department of Homeopathic Medicine at the Old Swan Health Centre, a GP practice. This has also been closed by the local PCT, and the doctors involved have formed something called a "community interest company", also based at the Old Swan.[9] The Bristol Homeopathic Hospital was transferred to the South Bristol Community Hospital following a report [10] showing reducing patient numbers, and the Royal London Homoeopathic Hospital has been rebranded as the Royal London Hospital for Integrated Medicine "in order more accurately to reflect the nature of its work."[11] The situation of NHS "homoeopathic hospitals" in the UK is only really relevant in the context of the declining usage of homoeopathy in the NHS, and is adequately covered in the appropriate article.[12] Brunton (talk) 08:50, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Of course compared to the current state of the article - you know editing out every reliable source which disputes the notion homeopathy is placebo - that's not so serious: why readers should know about the number of homeopathic hospitals ? We are trying to convince them that homeopathy does not work and no one cares about it anymore. --MarioMarco2009 (talk) 17:53, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

As you have been told repeatedly, the existence of homeopathic hospitals is already indicated in the article, and the article also indicates that there are proponents of homeopathy. The number of homeopathic hospitals is trivial, and you have already been informed that some of those mentioned in the source have either closed or had their purpose changed.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:58, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

"The article also indicates that there are proponents of homeopathy"? Oh this so neutral! - Ok - You guys are so kind. Thanks. --MarioMarco2009 (talk) 20:28, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

The article is to reflect mainstream views of the subject. Perhaps you do not understand Wikipedia's verifiability policy. Given the great preponderance of sources that report that homeopathy is not effective, the view to the contrary must not be given undue weight.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:12, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Well - As I said the "preponderance" of sources reporting homeopathy is not effective is great because you choose to edit out all the other equally reliable sources which report quite differently --MarioMarco2009 (talk) 23:44, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Your assertion is a lie, and citing an archived discussion that I wasn't involved in is just stupid.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:54, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Of course it is a lie and I m not so intelligent. Can't you tell? --MarioMarco2009 (talk) 00:34, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

What's that got to do with your false claim that I have edited out sources promoting homeopathy?--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:05, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

You need to realize that the value of the meta-analyses you are promoting is dependent on the value of the data that they are analyzing and that, in light of several other meta-analyses establishing a lack of effect when considering the same pool of primary papers, and in light of the lack of any plausible mechanism of how homeopathy would work, it is reasonable to look at the quality of the studies that are informing your analysis of choice. For instance, your second source suggests that the inclusion of smaller studies yields results in favor of homeopathy. The problem is that most of those smaller studies are, often by the author's own admission, statistically underpowered. While this generally is interpreted as increasing the risk of false negative outcomes, it can also lead to false positive results, particularly in the case of claims such as homeopathic efficacy where there is little evidence to suggest that any real effect should be expected. Your proposed article also includes papers from Jacobs et al. (found here and here) which are either acknowledged to be underpowered by the authors or are based on a small sample size and do not give any information that would allow for one to calculate the power, but it ignores a larger, properly powered paper by the same group which found no evidence of effect beyond that of placebo. Running a meta-analysis on a collection of low quality, underpowered studies does nothing to inform any useful conclusions; it simply makes for a low quality meta-analysis. In other words, 1000 x 0 = 0. Better quality analyses which treat data from better quality studies find that there is no effect beyond placebo and it is these studies that should be included in the article. - Puddin'head207.93.211.50 (talk) 22:21, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Not you personally . It was the royal you. I meant the group which controls the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarioMarco2009 (talk • contribs)

I don't see why we can't mention the number of hospitals in the body, assuming that we know how many there are. Detailed information about specific countries would probably be better suited for Regulation and prevalence of homeopathy. However, we should quite obviously not present outdated information, and if our sources indicate that the prevalence of hospitals are decreasing, that would be appropriate to include as well. Do we have a current and accurate source for any of this?

No group controls the article. WP policy controls the article, which is slated towards science and reliable sources. If you don't like our coverage, present better sources or find another wiki that has different policies.   — Jess· Δ♥ 01:11, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

• I don't see a problem with stating the number of homeopathic hospitals worldwide in this article if the sources give the number. By the way, if any of you here get frustrated with being stonewalled or hectored by some of the regulars here, don't lash back at them. Send me an email over my WP account if you'd like to talk about it further. Cla68 (talk) 01:42, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

It was given before above, But sure (even it is a minor thing and it does not change the quality of the article from anti homeopathy propaganda to accurate information) it is something people should know. In my opinion anyway. --MarioMarco2009 (talk) 01:50, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

No. Two sources were provided; one from 1998 that was shown to be significantly out of date, and another that discusses only one homeopathic hospital ("Scotland's only"), and how it may soon be converted. Neither of these establishes "the number of homeopathic hospitals in the uk", which is what you are trying to add. Again: "Do we have a current and accurate source for any of this?"   — Jess· Δ♥ 01:58, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Here. By the way in reply to your comment "WP policy controls the article, which is slated towards science and reliable sources" : I brought several examples above which reliable sources have been edited out because they don't concur with the one sided information the article provides. This is not part of wiki policy of course. --MarioMarco2009 (talk) 19:03, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Again... out of date. Two of those four websites our down, and other sources attest to them being defunct. We're not going to put incorrect information into the article.   — Jess· Δ♥ 20:13, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

If the source is old, you just put, "As of 2005 (or whatever it is on the date of that source) there were X number of homeopathic hospitals worldwide". Easy. I support adding the number to this article. Cla68 (talk) 22:54, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Should we then state that, as of 2015, most of theses hospitals cease to exist and have been proposed to have little value, as is indicated by their current operational status and the current literature.? Seems easier to just leave it out all together.-Puddin'head207.93.211.50 (talk) 23:01, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

@Cla Absolutely not... because it's not 2005 any more. Per sources, we could say there is one remaining hospital in the uk. I don't see any sources documenting worldwide numbers, and none sufficiently recent to indicate more than one in the uk.   — Jess· Δ♥ 23:05, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

OK, let's put in the text that there is one homeopathic hospital in the UK. What did the other source say about the numbers worldwide? It wouldn't suprise me if in countries like India or Brazil where homeopathy is widely practiced there are quite a few more. Cla68 (talk) 00:06, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

The number of hospitals seems pretty trivial, particularly since exclusively homeopathic facilities do not seem to exist any more in Europe. Expanding information on the prevalence in general would be more informative, but that should go in Regulation and prevalence of homeopathy, not this parent article. VQuakr (talk) 07:24, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. Just how broad is the definition of a "homeopathic" hospital, and would we be in danger of overstating their number or significance? There's a substantial difference between a facility devoted substantially or exclusively to homeopathic remedies (warning, video contains humo(u)r) and one that happens to offer access to homeopathic treatments as part of a much larger spectrum of services. On its face, the phrase "homeopathic hospital" would seem to suggest the former—but as used in the UK example would seem to actually be much more the latter. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:38, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I was in support of stating the number of homeopathic hospitals worldwide, but we have no current source for it, and I was under the (apparently mistaken) impression that a "homeopathic hospital" focused exclusively on homeopathy. If it just includes homeopathy alongside a typical medical regimen, I don't see how the distinction between it and some other homeopathic practice is significant. We shouldn't try to match sources to content we want to add; we should derive content from the sources we have, and right now we have none. Until that changes, let's move on.   — Jess· Δ♥ 17:17, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Placebo or not?

This is one only example. In reply to your comment -Puddin'head about the properly powered paper by the same group - this is false. This was not individualized homeopathy - You compare different things- The one shows no difference between placebo the other ( individualized homeopathy does show a difference] http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2000.6.131 Conclusions: These results are consistent with the finding from the previous study that individualized homeopathic treatment decreases the duration of diarrhea and number of stools in children with acute childhood diarrhea. This is what I mean : if with different tricks one falsely summarizes the evidence then of course "all research" "taken together" (by distorting the findings and methods of course) shows that homeopathy is just placebo. --MarioMarco2009 (talk) 18:13, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

First, I did not say that these papers were addressing the same claim, only that the larger trial which found no effect beyond placebo was the only paper (that I could find) from this group that was appropriately powered. As you are correct in pointing out that this larger study was not looking at the same endpoints using the same design, it is entirely possible that this one is underpowered as well. The other paper you reference has a small sample size and does not offer enough information to determine if the study described was appropriately powered, so it doesn't really do anything to further your claims of efficacy. Second, when "individualized" homeopathy is studied, it is almost impossible to draw any useful conclusions since there are so many variables that get introduced. It becomes a collection of multiple, poorly designed studies of several interventions, each with exceedingly small test subject groups, being passed off as one large study.

There's no need to pick through the particulars of every study. If you want to propose inclusion of any in particular, then bring them forward. My post was simply intended to point out that there are good reasons why most of the studies proposed as positive results of homeopathy are not accepted as appropriate evidence - and that it has nothing to do with your implied conspiracy of agenda driven editors forming a cabal against them. -Puddin'head24.9.79.14 (talk) 21:10, 3 March 2015 (UTC)