Talk:Evolution: Difference between revisions
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*Concerning the first sentence I see that one thing needing consideration is why we need the words "also known as descent with modification"? Is this even a common term? |
*Concerning the first sentence I see that one thing needing consideration is why we need the words "also known as descent with modification"? Is this even a common term? |
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*I remain open to the idea of removing the specificity of phenotypes. Thanks for the extra discussion about that TheProfessor, but I am not quite sure I get the relevance of [[User:GetAgrippa|GetAgrippa]]'s reply, which is maybe heading towards a reason for questioning that proposal?--[[User:Andrew Lancaster|Andrew Lancaster]] ([[User talk:Andrew Lancaster|talk]]) 09:52, 4 March 2015 (UTC) |
*I remain open to the idea of removing the specificity of phenotypes. Thanks for the extra discussion about that TheProfessor, but I am not quite sure I get the relevance of [[User:GetAgrippa|GetAgrippa]]'s reply, which is maybe heading towards a reason for questioning that proposal?--[[User:Andrew Lancaster|Andrew Lancaster]] ([[User talk:Andrew Lancaster|talk]]) 09:52, 4 March 2015 (UTC) |
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::Maybe I was confusing. I'm stating that all populations have natural variation-genetic or epigenetic that produce a phenotype-all the traits of an organism, and evolution is the processes that select on the natural genetic variation (remember too some areas of genomes are 100% conserved across a phyla) such heritable traits that increase reproduction and survival will likely gain in appearance and be maintained by the selective pressure in successive generations. Note too a single gene change can be pleiotropic and produce multiple alterations of a phenotype. So I'm saying the genetic change and heritable trait evolution is acting on can associate with numerous phenotypes within a population-so you can have a curly wing fly with pesticide resistance and a normal wing fly with pesticide resistance. So they share a common acquired trait that evolution made more common but then too still have variation in other traits creating different phenotypes. Dang now I'm more confused. LOL [[User:GetAgrippa|GetAgrippa]] ([[User talk:GetAgrippa|talk]]) 16:25, 4 March 2015 (UTC) |
::Maybe I was confusing. I'm stating that all populations have natural variation-genetic or epigenetic that produce a phenotype-all the traits of an organism, and evolution is the processes that select on the natural genetic variation (remember too some areas of genomes are 100% conserved across a phyla) such heritable traits that increase reproduction and survival will likely gain in appearance and be maintained by the selective pressure in successive generations. Note too a single gene change can be pleiotropic and produce multiple alterations of a phenotype. So I'm saying the genetic change and heritable trait evolution is acting on can associate with numerous phenotypes within a population-so you can have a curly wing fly with pesticide resistance and a normal wing fly with pesticide resistance. So they share a common acquired trait that evolution made more common but then too still have variation in other traits creating different phenotypes. Dang now I'm more confused. LOL. After further consideration I think what I am trying to say is a phenotype is all the traits that evolution acts on and one trait maybe acted on by natural selection and another by genetic drift etc. So absolutely the "phenotype" is important bur for a simple definition heritable trait seems more understandable but maybe put "phenotype" in hypothesis-with as a link to that article? Surely that has muddied the waters-dang it. [[User:GetAgrippa|GetAgrippa]] ([[User talk:GetAgrippa|talk]]) 16:25, 4 March 2015 (UTC) |
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Many of these questions are rephrased objections to evolution that users have argued should be included in the text of Evolution. The reason for their exclusion is discussed below. The main points of this FAQ can be summarized as:
More detail is given on each of these points, and other common questions and objections, below.
Q1: Why won't you add criticisms or objections to evolution in the Evolution article?
A1: This is essentially mandated by Wikipedia's official neutral point of view policy. This policy requires that articles treat views on various subjects proportionally to those views' mainstream acceptance in the appropriate academic field. For example, if two contradictory views in physics are held by roughly an equal number of physicists, then Wikipedia should give those views "equal time". On the other hand, if one view is held by 99% of physicists and the other by 1%, then Wikipedia should favor the former view throughout its physics articles; the latter view should receive little, if any, coverage. To do otherwise would require, for example, that we treat belief in a Flat Earth as being equal to other viewpoints on the figure of the Earth.
Due to the enormous mainstream scientific consensus in support of modern evolutionary theory, and pursuant to Wikipedia's aforementioned policies, the Evolution article references evolution as an observable natural process and as the valid explanation for the diversity of life on Earth. Although there are indeed opposing views to evolution, such as Creationism, none of these views have any support in the relevant field (biology), and therefore Wikipedia cannot, and should not, treat these opposing views as being significant to the science of evolution. On the other hand, they may be very significant to sociological articles on the effects of evolutionary theory on religious and cultural beliefs; this is why sociological and historical articles such as Rejection of evolution by religious groups give major coverage to these opposing views, while biological articles such as Evolution do not. Q2: Evolution is controversial, so why won't you teach the controversy?
A2: As noted above, evolution is at best only controversial in social areas like politics and religion. The fact that evolution occurs and the ability of modern evolutionary theory to explain why it occurs are not controversial amongst biologists. Indeed, numerous respectable scientific societies, such as the American Association for the Advancement of Science and the National Academy of Sciences, have issued statements supporting evolution and denouncing creationism and/or ID.[1] In 1987 only about 0.15% of American Earth and life scientists supported creationism.[2]
Thus, as a consequence of Wikipedia's policies, it is necessary to treat evolution as mainstream scientific consensus treats it: an uncontroversial fact that has an uncontested and accurate explanation in evolutionary theory. There are no scientifically supported "alternatives" for this view. However, while the overall theory of evolution is not controversial in that it is the only widely-accepted scientific theory for the diversity of life on Earth, certain aspects of the theory are controversial or disputed in that there actually are significant disagreements regarding them among biologists. These lesser controversies, such as over the rate of evolution, the importance of various mechanisms such as the neutral theory of molecular evolution, or the relevance of the gene-centered view of evolution, are, in fact, covered extensively in Wikipedia's science articles. However, most are too technical to warrant a great deal of discussion on the top-level article Evolution. They are very different from the creation–evolution controversy, however, in that they amount to scientific disputes, not religious ones. Q3: Why is evolution described as though it's a fact? Isn't evolution just a theory?
A3: That depends on if you use the words evolution, theory, and fact in their scientific or their colloquial sense. Unfortunately, all of these words have at least two meanings. For example, evolution can either refer to an observed process (covered at evolution), or, as a shorthand for evolutionary theory, to the explanation for that process (covered at modern evolutionary synthesis). To avoid confusion between these two meanings, when the theory of evolution, rather than the process/fact of evolution, is being discussed, this will usually be noted by explicitly using the word theory.
Evolution is not a theory in the sense used on Evolution; rather, it is a fact. This is because the word evolution is used here to refer to the observed process of the genetic composition of populations changing over successive generations. Because this is simply an observation, it is considered a fact. Fact has two different meanings: in colloquial usage, it refers to any well-supported proposition; in scientific usage, it refers to a confirmed observation. For example, in the scientific sense, "apples fall if you drop them" is a fact, but "apples fall if you drop them because of a curvature in spacetime" is a theory. Gravity can thus either refer to a fact (the observation that objects are attracted to each other) or a theory (general relativity, which is the explanation for this fact). Evolution is the same way. As a fact, evolution is an observed biological process; as a theory, it is the explanation for this process. What adds to this confusion is that the theory of evolution is also sometimes called a "fact", in the colloquial sense—that is, to emphasize how well supported it is. When evolution is shorthand for "evolutionary theory", evolution is indeed a theory. However, phrasing this as "just a theory" is misleading. Theory has two different meanings: in colloquial usage, it refers to a conjecture or guess; in scientific usage, it refers to a well-supported explanation or model for observed phenomena. Evolution is a theory in the latter sense, not in the former. Thus, it is a theory in the same sense that gravity and plate tectonics are theories. The currently accepted theory of evolution is known as the modern evolutionary synthesis. Q4: But isn't evolution unproven?
A4: Once again, this depends on how one is defining the terms proof and proven. Proof has two meanings: in logic and mathematics, it refers to an argument or demonstration showing that a proposition is completely certain and logically necessary; in other uses, proof refers to the establishment and accumulation of experimental evidence to a degree at which it lends overwhelming support to a proposition. Therefore, a proven proposition in the mathematical sense is one which is formally known to be true, while a proven proposition in the more general sense is one which is widely held to be true because the evidence strongly indicates that this is so ("beyond all reasonable doubt", in legal language).
In the first sense, the whole of evolutionary theory is not proven with absolute certainty, but there are mathematical proofs in evolutionary theory. However, nothing in the natural sciences can be proven in the first sense: empirical claims such as those in science cannot ever be absolutely certain, because they always depend on a finite set of facts that have been studied relative to the unproven assumptions of things stirring in the infinite complexity of the world around us. Evolutionary science pushes the threshold of discovery into the unknown. To call evolution "unproven" in this sense is technically correct, but meaningless, because propositions like "the Earth revolves around the Sun" and even "the Earth exists" are equally unproven. Absolute proof is only possible for a priori propositions like "1 + 1 = 2" or "all bachelors are unmarried men", which do not depend on any experience or evidence, but rather on definition. In the second sense, on the other hand, evolutionary theory is indeed "proven". This is because evolution is extremely well supported by the evidence, has made testable confirmed predictions, etc. For more information, see Evidence of evolution. Q5: Has evolution ever been observed?
A5: Evolution, as a fact, is the gradual change in forms of life over several billion years. In contrast, the field of evolutionary biology is less than 200 years old. So it is not surprising that scientists did not directly observe, for example, the gradual change over tens of millions of years of land mammals to whales.[3] However, there are other ways to "observe" evolution in action.
Scientists have directly observed and tested small changes in forms of life in laboratories, particularly in organisms that breed rapidly, such as bacteria and fruit flies.[4] A famous experiment was developed in 1992 that traced bacterial evolution with precision in a lab. This experiment has subsequently been used to test the accuracy and robustness of methods used in reconstructing the evolutionary history of other organisms with great success.[5][6] Evolution has also been observed in the field, such as in the plant Oenothera lamarckiana which gave rise to the new species Oenothera gigas,[7] in the Italian Wall Lizard,[8] and in Darwin's finches.[9] Scientists have observed significant changes in forms of life in the fossil record. From these direct observations scientists have been able to make inferences regarding the evolutionary history of life. Such inferences are also common to all fields of science. For example, the neutron has never been observed, but all the available data supports the neutron model. The inferences upon which evolution is based have been tested by the study of more recently discovered fossils, the science of genetics, and other methods. For example, critics once challenged the inference that land mammals evolved into whales. However, later fossil discoveries illustrated the pathway of whale evolution.[3] So, although the entire evolutionary history of life has not been directly observed, all available data supports the fact of evolution. Q6: Why is microevolution equated with macroevolution?
A6: The article doesn't equate the two, but merely recognizes that they are largely or entirely the same process, just on different timescales. The great majority of modern evolutionary biologists consider macroevolution to simply be microevolution on a larger timescale; all fields of science accept that small ("micro") changes can accumulate to produce large ("macro") differences, given enough time. Most of the topics covered in the evolution article are basic enough to not require an appeal to the micro/macro distinction. Consequently, the two terms are not equated, but simply not dealt with much.
A more nuanced version of the claim that evolution has never been observed is to claim that microevolution has been directly observed, while macroevolution has not. However, that is not the case, as speciations, which are generally seen as the benchmark for macroevolution, have been observed in a number of instances. Q7: What about the scientific evidence against evolution?
A7: To be frank, there isn't any. Most claimed "evidence against evolution" is either a distortion of the actual facts of the matter, or an example of something that hasn't been explained yet. The former is erroneous, as it is based on incorrect claims. The latter, on the other hand, even when accurate, is irrelevant. The fact that not everything is fully understood doesn't make a certain proposition false; that is an example of the argument from ignorance logical fallacy. Examples of claimed evidence against evolution:
Q8: How could life arise by chance?
A8: If by "arise", one means "develop from non-organic matter through abiogenesis", then this is a question that is not answered by evolutionary theory. Evolution only deals with the development of pre-existing life, not with how that life first came to be. The fact that life evolves is not dependent upon the origin of life any more than the fact that objects gravitate towards other objects is dependent upon the Big Bang.
On the other hand, if by "arise" one means "evolve into the organisms alive today", then the simple answer is: it didn't. Evolution does not occur "by chance". Rather, evolution occurs through natural selection, which is a non-random process. Although mutation is random, natural selection favors mutations that have specific properties—the selection is therefore not random. Natural selection occurs because organisms with favored characteristics survive and reproduce more than ones without favored characteristics, and if these characteristics are heritable they will mechanically increase in frequency over generations. Although some evolutionary phenomena, such as genetic drift, are indeed random, these processes do not produce adaptations in organisms. If the substance of this objection is that evolution seems implausible, that it's hard to imagine how life could develop by natural processes, then this is an invalid argument from ignorance. Something does not need to be intuitive or easy to grasp in order to be true.Past discussions For further information, see the numerous past discussions on these topics in the archives of Talk:Evolution: The article is not neutral. It doesn't mention that evolution is controversial.
The article should mention alternative views prominently, such as in a criticism section.
Evolution is just a theory, not a fact.
There is scientific evidence against evolution. References
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Regarding recent changes
These edits have been reverted by multiple users because "This article is specific to evolution in biology", and the edit "appears contentious".
This article's content is about biological evolution, and (per WP:LEDE) the intro summarizes the article. The removed content discussed a number of uses of the word "evolution" that had nothing to do with biology. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:27, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that page is about "biologcal evolution" and the biological evolution page REDIRECTS there! Why? That makes NO SENSE! The page is named "evolution". Not "biological evolution". Where should "evolution" be described, if the "evolution" page is to be RESERVED FOR "biological evolution" while the "biological evolution" page is left blank except for a redirect to the "evolution" page? In my opinion, that is HIDING WHAT EVOLUTION IS from the public. Is that what Wikipedia is for? To deceive the public? DonaldKronos (talk) 00:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Per the scholarly and technical definition of the word evolution, evolution IS just biological evolution. Only colloquially does it refer to other forms of change. And since this is an encyclopedia, there is a natural preference for using terms in a scholarly/technical way, hence the evolution article is about biological evolution only. Other encyclopedias do it the exact same way.01:03, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Actually the word predates Darwin's use of it." So what we find is that word evolution originated from Latin word evolutio, which means unrolling, something like unrolling of the scroll, and the word existed a couple of centuries before Darwin wrote Origin of Species. He infact did not even use the word evolution in his book until the last line which was: There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone circling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved." Darwin in fact disliked the word "evolution" and it was his peers that made it popular. Regards GetAgrippa (talk) 05:29, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Quote: "evolution IS just biological evolution" -- Response: Bull SH*T! BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTION is "just biological evolution". EVOLUTION is not! What religion told you that silly lie? I'm really SICK AND TIRED OF THE CENSORSHIP IN HERE! I have noticed that the article is written as if it were meant to discredit evolution, rather than to explain it. Now, should I continue trying to assume good intentions? DonaldKronos (talk) 01:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- My scientific education told me that. My love of words that is so extensive that I read the dictionary told me that. Other encyclopedias tell me that. Other scientific experts tell me that. And I find it strange that you think this article is written to discredit evolution. Most of the time, we get people claiming its too pro-evolution.
- Now please, WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH. Its a rule, not a recommendation. (which is exactly why you should continue trying to assume good intentions) I highly recommend abiding by it. Failure to do so generally leads to getting your account and perhaps even your IP address blocked.Farsight001 (talk) 01:57, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- You seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding that this is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. Evolution, in this context, refers to biological evolution, not all possible applications of the term. Your posts continue to be insulting and rude, while ignoring all feedback you receive. Zarcusian (talk) 01:54, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I have reported DonaldKronos for edit warring. I'd've been more willing to look the other way if he hadn't been completely hostile to everyone he's interacted with. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:10, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Hello Ian.thomson. Sorry what I was doing came off as "edit warring". That was not my intention. I simply had no idea how to contact people in here... nor at first even how to find this talk page (nor did I think to look for it at first). I'm not entirely unfamiliar with editing in Wikipedia, but unfortunately I had in the past had similar experiences and could not find anyone to tell me what I most needed to know.... how to reply to people. Needless to say, the frustration was overwhelming. Please accept my apology.
- Sorry Zarcusian. I was banned, and unable to reply, before I was able to figure out (thanks to some helpful people) how to actually post a reply. It's not as intuitive before learning it as it seems AFTER learning it. LOL!.
- I had not meant to call you a vandal. I over-reacted due mainly to previous bad experiences in Wikipedia. How biological evolution fits into the broader concept of evolution is not only relevant to biological evolution but essential for some people to be able to understand that evolution is a real process that actually happens and no some much more restricted thing they have been told to believe it is.
- Even within the context of biological evolution the statement "Evolution is the change in the inherited phenotypic traits (characteristics) of biological populations over successive generations", is not entirely a true statement. That does describe what is generally meant in that context, but it certainly is not descriptive of evolution in a broader sense, and the I would think the evolution page, if it is going to be about only one facet or one category of evolution, should at least put it into the context of evolution in the broader sense, from the start.
- While there is a link to the disambiguation page at the top of the evolution page, its disambiguation page starts out with "Evolution is the change in traits of biological organisms over time due to natural selection and other mechanisms", which again is not a true statement, outside of a very specific context.
- Anyway, progress has been made in my absence, and after this latest experience I would rather avoid editing pages in Wikipedia when not specifically asked to, except for perhaps occasional minor edits. Perhaps in time that will change, but right now I'm still recovering from the trauma. Thanks for doing what you felt was right, and again I apologize for my wording in describing what it looked like to me at the time.
- You need to read the history of this article. You aren't making any arguments that haven't been thoroughly vetted over the years. You keep saying the article is not fully descriptive of "evolution" but then don't say what "you think" it is and should say-so you aren't making an argument just a complaint. The intro, suppose to be general, covers descent with modification and a basic definition (which the wording has changed to and fro back and forth-but still the same intent of heritable traits changing with successive generations-which is common to all encyclopedic articles and most intro biology text books. It isn't suppose to be evolution by Futyama or Jablonka or Dobzhansky, etc. I've always thought the article should emphasize the modern synthesis more so that Darwin but the body addresses it. The article has been edited by a number of "card carrying" evolutionary biologist yet those changes haven't lasted untouched. The article has a difficult time staying stable because everyone who reads the article finds fault and want to change-as I did years ago. I guess it is human nature. Regards, GetAgrippa (talk) 13:41, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Suggestion for Improved Accuracy
Protracted WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I'm suggesting the following change, simply for the sake of improving the accuracy of the page's opening statement. Where is now says... Evolution is the change in heritable phenotype traits of biological populations over successive generations. I suggest it be changed to say... In the context of biology, evolution is the change in heritable phenotype traits of biological populations over successive generations. My reasoning is that even though it is stated that this page is about evolution in biology many people coming to the page will have found it by searching for evolution and will read that opening statement without having read the italicized qualifier above it. Discussion? DonaldKronos (talk) 23:58, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Biological evolution, and the different forms of non-biological evolution are all unrelated concepts that merely share the same name. There is no overarching platonic ideal of Evolution of which biological evolution and the various non-biological evolutions are subsets thereof (and I say this as someone influenced by Teilhard de Chardin). Evolution, when unspecified and given no other context, usually refers to biological evolution, and so that can be considered the default. To treat the different kinds of evolutions as part of the same overall process is to completely confuse the matter to the point of imitating the YEC stereotype of "evolutionism" (again, I'm saying this as someone who was influenced by a theologian who considered various kinds of evolution to be the universe being redeemed by God). Ian.thomson (talk) 00:41, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
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To Whom It May Concern
No specific suggestion for article improvement which can be backed up by reliable sources. If sources are found, please start a new section with them listed prominently. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
There appears to be False balance in some important articles cf. Supernatural Creation Power. I see a clear writing style in these articles that is very easy to follow. As opposed to Evolution and Big Bang theory which are lacking in Plain English though full of WP:PEA. Which to me infers Imago dei please also cf. Line 2 Truth . Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. --Considering Wormwood 04:54, 15 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaptinavenger (talk • contribs)
Kapt, I've spelled out how wikipedia operates with respect to neutrality. For more detailed information, you can read WP:WEIGHT. We cannot change the article without referring to sources. Please provide sources, or we can't continue this conversation. — Jess· Δ♥ 17:14, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Anyone uninvolved want to close this discussion as Kaptinavenger clearly doesn't know what we mean by reliable sources? --NeilN talk to me 01:37, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
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External Links
Is this a valuable or interesting external Link to add to the article? The video is not an encyclopedia-like scientific explanation, but I thought it might be interesting to other readers to see the evolution photographs presented in the video: http://www.ted.com/talks/frans_lanting_s_lyrical_nature_photos?language=en "The LIFE Project, a poetic collection of photographs that tell the story of our planet" Jcardazzi (talk) 17:50, 21 February 2015 (UTC)jcardazzi
Here is an excellent video of the Stickleback Supermodel of evolution.I highly recommend it. Great example of how evolution works in novel ways too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv4Ca-f4W9Q Regards GetAgrippa (talk) 04:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 1 March 2015
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For greater clarity and precision in the first line change: "Evolution, also known as descent with modification, is the change in heritable phenotype traits of biological populations over successive generations." "Evolution, also known as descent with modification, is the gradual change in heritable phenotype traits and genotype genetic information of biological populations over successive generations." as evolutionary change is not rapid and evolutionary change affects both the outward appearance and the genetics from which the outward appearance is derived. Dtheis (talk) 20:35, 1 March 2015 (UTC)dtheis, 3/1/15 apologies for duplicate request - spelling error in first request with no easy way to correct after submission Dtheis (talk) 20:35, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
- comment: Whose perspective of "gradual" are we using? Humans'? Bacteria's?--Mr Fink (talk) 20:41, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not keen on using the word "gradual" based on sources that discuss variability in rates of evolution; "heritable" implies genetic; and "genotype genetic information" is redundant and poorly stated. Personally, I'd prefer something simple and clean:
- "Evolution, also known as descent with modification, is change in heritable traits of biological populations over successive generations."
- This is true to synthetic sources (e.g., Richard Lewontin's review, Wilson and Bossert's primer, and Ernst Mayr's books) and easy to understand, and technical terms genotype and phenotype explained subsequently. While it may be good to refine the lede, I'd suggest cleaner organization for the overall article first. I can bring an example clean outline back from archived discussion if anybody is ready to tackle this. TheProfessor (talk) 01:30, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
- Adding "gradual" would be redundant in that sentence that ends with "successive generations". Capeo (talk) 03:28, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Here is a summary of the 2 proposals, to help discussion...
Evolution, also known as descent with modification, is the change in heritable phenotype traits of biological populations over successive generations. |
Evolution, also known as descent with modification, is the gradual change in heritable phenotype traits and genotype genetic information of biological populations over successive generations. |
Evolution, also known as descent with modification, is change in heritable traits of biological populations over successive generations. |
Concerning the original proposal by Dtheis:
- Concerning the addition of the word "gradual" I don't think it adds much. An obvious answer to Mr Fink's concern is that as writers for humans we use the perspective of humans, but I am not saying you have no point. I think Capeo hits the nail on the head though, by pointing out that the rapidity (or lack thereof) is depending on generation length. I think our human readers will "get" what that means, i.e. that this will often mean "gradual", while at the same time this wording allows for those fast breeding bacteria.
- No one has commented above on the second aspect of the change which is including not only phenotypic evolution, but also less visible genetic evolution. Seems worth considering? However...
Concerning the second proposal by User:TheProfessor, perhaps it can be understood as a kind of reply to the second change though, by avoiding reference to either genetic or phenotype. I suppose, this raises the question of why the word phenotype was included to begin with. I suppose the reason was that not everyone would call every genetic mutation "evolution". Throughout any population, there are constant differences between individuals which are said to be in the same population, but at least according to the common use of the word, such variations are not all "evolution". I think this is because our language and "common sense" still refers to things called "species" whereas evolution basically means the species are not fixed. They really are constantly evolving and in a state of change, with no particular direction except whatever happens to survive. So I think the wording we currently have is a concession to standard ways of speaking. Anyway, for the time being I personally have no strong opinion on any of these proposals, but I hope the above helps show some key pros and cons. I suppose if all are reasonably acceptable, the proposal of TheProfessor is at least the shortest.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:49, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
- Previously the opening sentence read as follows: Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. Either "heritable traits" or "inherited characteristics" would be good. Population geneticists refer to "change in gene frequency in a population" with the emphasis on genotype change, whereas systematists refer to "change in characters" inferred by phylogenetic analysis and with the emphasis on phenotype change. The language "heritable trait" or "inherited characteristic" implies the change is both phenotypic and genotypic (as compared with non-heritable traits or unexpressed genes). Again, I favor simplicity and clarity, including minimal links true to the crafted language and not fashioned by the title of the article to which a link is added. Note that mutation, random fluctuation, selection, assortative mating, and migration in or out of a population all result in evolution. Note that "character" refers to "taxonomic character" (morphological, physiological, molecular, behavioural, ecological, or geographic). TheProfessor (talk) 12:41, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
While we are at it, let's also consider simplifying the second sentence as follows:
- Evolutionary processes give rise to diversity at every level of biological organisation, including at the level of species, individual organisms, and molecules.
Currently the second sentence is worded to expose the titles of articles in links rather than crafted for simplicity and clarity. TheProfessor (talk) 13:02, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Here is a quote from page 3 of Stickler's Evolution (4th ed) by Brian K. Hall and Benedikt Hallgrímsson, to remind us that this is based on reliable sources:
- Biological evolution is concerned with inherited changes in populations of organisms over time leading to differences among them. Individuals do not evolve, in the sense that an individual exists only for one generation. Individuals within each generation, however, do respond to natural selection. Genes within individuals (genotypes) in a population, which are passed down from generation to generation, and the features (phenotypes) of individuals in successive generations do evolve. Accumulation of heritable responses to selection of the phenotype, generation after generation, leads to evolution: Darwin’s descent with modification.
- All organisms, no matter how we name, classify or arrange them on The Tree of Life, are bound together by four essential facts:
- 1. They share a common inheritance.
- 2. Their past has been long enough for inherited changes to accumulate.
- 3. The discoverable taxonomic relationships among organisms are the result of evolution.
- 4. Discoverable biological processes explain both how organisms arose and how they were modified through time by the process of evolution.
TheProfessor (talk) 13:44, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
The heritable traits or characters sounds best-strange the phenotype was used. A genetic change can be heritable and passed on for thousands of years till evolution finally acts on itt-like fruit flies resistance to synthetic pesticides is from a transposon mutation that's been jumping around for tens of thousands of years yet only in the last 200 years with synthetic pesticides has natural selection found a use for the heritable trait as it conferred resistance to these pesticides and increasing the allele such 80% of the planets population of flies have this trait. GetAgrippa (talk) 17:58, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{edit semi-protected}}
template. Also, since there are four people here in this discussion, who are autoconfirmed, there is really no reason to open a request for edit. When there is a consensus, just make the change. :) —{{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c)
15:49, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Several things...
- TheProfessor can you start a new thread if you want to discuss the second sentence? I do recall something of the careful discussion which led to it, and I think you might be under-estimating the reasoning put into it. It was not just to add links, but also to help readers avoid a common misunderstanding.
- Concerning the first sentence I see that one thing needing consideration is why we need the words "also known as descent with modification"? Is this even a common term?
- I remain open to the idea of removing the specificity of phenotypes. Thanks for the extra discussion about that TheProfessor, but I am not quite sure I get the relevance of GetAgrippa's reply, which is maybe heading towards a reason for questioning that proposal?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:52, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
- Maybe I was confusing. I'm stating that all populations have natural variation-genetic or epigenetic that produce a phenotype-all the traits of an organism, and evolution is the processes that select on the natural genetic variation (remember too some areas of genomes are 100% conserved across a phyla) such heritable traits that increase reproduction and survival will likely gain in appearance and be maintained by the selective pressure in successive generations. Note too a single gene change can be pleiotropic and produce multiple alterations of a phenotype. So I'm saying the genetic change and heritable trait evolution is acting on can associate with numerous phenotypes within a population-so you can have a curly wing fly with pesticide resistance and a normal wing fly with pesticide resistance. So they share a common acquired trait that evolution made more common but then too still have variation in other traits creating different phenotypes. Dang now I'm more confused. LOL. After further consideration I think what I am trying to say is a phenotype is all the traits that evolution acts on and one trait maybe acted on by natural selection and another by genetic drift etc. So absolutely the "phenotype" is important bur for a simple definition heritable trait seems more understandable but maybe put "phenotype" in hypothesis-with as a link to that article? Surely that has muddied the waters-dang it. GetAgrippa (talk) 16:25, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
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