Talk:Human

Human: Origins of civilization

This article states "Ancient Greece was the seminal civilization that laid the foundations of Western culture, being the birthplace of Western philosophy, democracy, major scientific and mathematical advances, the Olympic Games, Western literature and historiography, as well as Western drama, including both tragedy and comedy.[51"

It was quite a shock to read this patently untrue and biased sentence in Wikipedia.

It is certainly broadly known that scientific and mathematical advances originated in the civilizations of Africa, not in Greece. Why does this sentence talk only about "Western civilization?" What is that? Civilized societies in Africa and likely in the Americas pre-dated those of Europe, as well as governmental structures (by the way, define "democracy"--how does it relate to the early tribal societies of Africans and Native Americans, which were certainly based on structures relating to the people as a whole, not to artificial constructs like "democracy."). The sentence at the beginning of this commentary is nothing but a VERY NON-SCIENTIFIC, European oriented hodge podge including such non-related items as the Olympic Games, Western literature, etc. And what is the definition of WESTERN?

This part of the discussion does not stand up to Wikipedia's usually more scientific and non-biased articles. Additionally, most of the illustrations depicting modern humans show European types, which represent a minority of the world's population. I don't have the time to include citations here as this is not my normal calling, but I would suggest that your editors take a look at the broadly biased and unscientific reflections in the sentence at the beginning of this commentary and completely revise it to include the contributions of African and Native American societies from both North and South America. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.124.218.115 (talk) 00:46, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I don't specialize but I will report this to other editors. Gug01 (talk) 00:50, 24 January 2015 (UTC) Gug 01

Actually, that sentence is correct. It mentions ADVANCES of mathematics and science, which WERE made in ancient Greece, and it indeed laid the foundations of western culture. Yes, it only talks about western culture, but remember that this page is about the human race, NOT about their culture, and no matter what freakin' way you want to turn it, Western culture IS the dominant culture on earth. Look at Wikipedia: English is by far the largest. Look at language: English is the most important language in the world (at the moment at least, I'm not talking about 50 years into the future). Look at major sports like football and tennis: Originate from Europe. Look at the most-played theathre pieces: Shakespeare still at one. Also, notice how it never talks about "Western civilization" despite that being an important part of what you wrote. And it talks about modern democracy, where a large group of people (in Ancient Greece 20 000, in modern times many millions) is ruled in the way called "democracy". Basically, the government of a group of people that is so large that people from the group cannot all know one another (as this is the point from which you'll need a government to keep things going, because people can't care for people they don't know). And the definition of Western, for your information, is "(West-)European and North American". About those illustrations... We're on the English wikipedia right here, aren't we? Well, let's use the people a standard person browsing the English wikipedia will be familiar with. Should we use someone from India? No, they, for a large part, speak Hindi. Chinese? They speak Mandarin. Latino? They speak Spanish. Leaves only negro and causican. Now, are the more negroïd or more causican people in the USA, Canada and Great Britain (oh you know what, lets add other countries where English is a compulsory subject at school AND that are rich enough that people have internet, like the Netherlands, Germany, Norway, etc). Either way, we're going to end with a FAR majority of the readers of this page being causican, with, I would say, negro and hindi (I guess?) being second and third. Don't talk about even representation of the world's population when the group of people who might read this is not a representation of the world's population. And yeah, North and South American societies... As I already said, this page isn't about human culture, it's about human life, and tell me, how many millions of people live in traditional Native American ways, and how many in traditional European ways? Before you're gonna add North and South America you're AT LEAST going to have to add Chinese, for example. As I already said though, the Chinese will most likely read this page in another language, and therefore that information should be on THAT page. 217.121.176.170 (talk) 19:00, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

There is a part in here which states "They began to exhibit evidence of behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago, and migrated in successive waves to occupy". There were Australian Aboriginal remains that have been dated back to more than 60,000 years ago. Obviously this sentence is false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.154.196.76 (talk) 00:19, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2015

I would like to change 1 object in the article, I think doing so would make the world a better place.

EditorGuy2 (talk) 23:14, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

You have not specified the changes you are seeking. Please specify in the format "please change x to y". Due to vandalism, this article is semi-protected so that only confirmed users can edit it. Dwpaul ^Talk 23:17, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Include bonobos along with chimpanzees in the mention of human's closest (genus Pan) relatives

Please change "The closest living relatives of humans are chimpanzees (genus Pan) and gorillas (genus Gorilla)." to "The closest living relatives of humans are chimpanzees and bonobos (genus Pan) and gorillas (genus Gorilla)."

Bonobos could also be included in the sentences immediately following, as well.

According to the Bonobo article, the current research places bonobos and chimpanzees as equally close relatives to humans, although there is evidence that the common ancestor to all three was probably more bonobo-like than chimpanzee-like or human-like. Bonobos are certainly closer relatives to humans than are gorillas.

The ignoring of bonobos is a common practice when human relatives are discussed. This contributes to their being less well-known, which impacts conservation efforts for a severely endangered important species. Wikipedia should not encourage this practice.

73.202.43.214 (talk) 12:41, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Often Chimpanzee is used as the genus name for Pan including both P. troglodytes and P. paniscus. That is the usage in the sentence you suggest to change. If we add P. paniscus then we would also have to add the species of Gorilla. No need to complicate it further in that particular sentence/·maunus · snunɐɯ· 13:51, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok, you're right, we aren't speaking about particular species but particular genera. But what describes Pan (genus) more precisely, "chimpanzees" or "chimpanzees and bonobos"? We're saying that Homo is closest to Pan, not per se "Chimpanzees", right? Chrisrus (talk) 14:04, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

I think saying "Chimpanzees (genus Pan)" is pretty specifically showing that the word Chimpanzee in this case is meant to refer to the genus and not the species.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:44, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

@Chrisrus: There are two species of chimpanzee: the common chimpanzee (also known as the robust chimpanzee) and the bonobo (also known as the gracile chimpanzee). All bonobos are chimpanzees, but not all chimpanzees are bonobos. Leaving the sentence as it is is correct. - UtherSRG (talk) 18:09, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

A lack of understanding of those facts is not the problem. The discussion is about whether it's better to call the genus Pan "the chimpanzees" or "the chimpanzees and bonobos". Now that nowadays experts are also using the term "chimpanzee" in contrast with "bonobo", speaking for example as they do about "chimpanzees and bonobos", as if a bonobo were not also a chimpanzee. It is legitimate to think of a bonobo as a kind of chimpanzee or as something close to but not a chimpanzee. For example, if an expert says "That's not a chimpanzee, that's a bonobo", it means "that's not a P. troglodytes, it's a P. paniscus. Therefore, since the name of P. paniscus has been changed from "pigmy chimpanzee" to "bonobo", the world "chimpanzee" has become ambiguous, sometimes referring to all of the genus Pan, and sometimes, as when they speak of "chimpanzees and bonobos", to specifically the common chimpanzee. Therefore, there are at least two legitimate aposotives for the noun phrase "the genus Pan": "Chimpanzees" or "chimpanzees and bonobos". The latter choice of the two as it's less ambiguous as to whether it means just the common chimpanzee, which is as you know incorrect, or both the common chimpanzee and the bonobo at the same time, which is as you know correct. Chrisrus (talk) 04:00, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

In part, we're talking about the difference between descriptivism and proscriptivism; language has indeed been shifting to be more ambiguous in the use of the term "chimpanzee", and at the same time trying to compensate by saying "chimpanzees and bonobos" instead of "common chimpanzees and bonobos". Should we only follow this pattern in our language use (descriptivism), should we be stricter in our language use (proscriptivism), or should we find some spot between where we note these shifts in language but are also a force that helps bring that language to a better place? I think we should choose to be that force. I think we should be a subtle thorn in the side of those who both make false dichotomies and those who overly lump things together. I think we should strive to be the best at our language use so that others will want to also strive to be better.

So when an expert says, "That's not a chimpanzee, that's a bonobo," the expert is using sloppy language, and he likely knows it. If we quote directly, we quote directly. But if we're writing our own description of what he means, we can say "X is not a common chimpanzee, it's a bonobo." The name of P. paniscus hasn't changed - it's had many names for quite a long time, be it "pygmy chimpanzee", or "gracile chimpanzee", or "bonobo". What's shifted is which of those names has primacy, and what the political ramifications of that shift are. Frans de Waal was and continues to be a significant driving force in the language shift, because of the work he'd done with bonobos in zoos. This work set the bonobos apart from common chimps. However, there has been other work with wild bonobos that show they are much more like common chimps in their behaviors in the wild, the implication of which is that what separates common chimps from bonobos most is our language.

Back a bit more on topic, if we're describing the genus alone, saying "common chimpanzees and bonobos" is good. When we're describing it in the context of other genera, all of which are described in a minimal fashion that doesn't list out all of the species in the genera, then "chimpanzees" is the better description. Bonobos are still chimpanzees, they are just a different species of chimpanzee just like the western gorilla is a species of gorilla. The only difference is that "wester gorilla" has "gorilla" in it, but "bonobo" doesn't have "chimpanzee" in it. Is so very much wish that whomever termed it the "bonobo" had instead termed it the "bonobo chimpanzee"; we'd never have any of these confusions and disagreements or sloppy uses of language. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:40, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia shouldn't sometimes use "chimpanzees" to mean "chimpanzees and bonobos" and other times use it to mean "common chimpanzees." The term "chimpanzee" isn't either properly used or commonly understood to apply to two different species with very different behaviors. It would be better to talk about "members of the genus Pan" to refer to both, and "the chimpanzee" or "the bonobo" to refer to specific species. Why avoid the term "bonobo" in this sentence when many people (including Wikipedia Yeoman Editor Francis Hannaway) have stated their belief the further research will show that Pan paniscus is actually a closer human relative than Pan troglodytes? Ask a primatologist about the proper terminology... 73.202.43.214 (talk) 20:04, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

I'll repeat... There are two species of chimpanzee: the common chimpanzee (also known as the robust chimpanzee) and the bonobo (also known as the gracile chimpanzee). All bonobos are chimpanzees, but not all chimpanzees are bonobos. If we modify the sentence to include "bonobo", then we should also modify it to include all of the gorilla species. There isn't only one gorilla species, and there isn't only one chimpanzee species. We have listed the relationships at the genus level. It would be odd to mix and match both genus and species names in that sentence. Either we should only list genus-level information, as we've done, or we should list only species-level information. The latter is more awkward. Better is what we have and to have the conversation about terminology, which is done well at chimpanzee.

As for saying that the bonobo is closer to humans than the common chimp - that would be very incorrect. The most recent common chimp / bonobo ancester is a descendant of the most recent chimp / human ancester; both chimp species are equally closely related to humans. The two Pan species split apart about a million years ago; Pan split from the Homo line between 4 and 13 million years ago.

You are correct, though - Wikipedia should minimize the use of "chimpanzee" for both the genus and the species. However, that is how the word is used. When easily done, it should be noted how the word is used. In the sentence in question, we've done that by indicating we're talking about the genus. - UtherSRG (talk) 20:41, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

You are correct about when the splitting of the lines occurred. But if P. troglodytes has diverged more from the original Pan line than P. paniscus has, then P. paniscus is closer genetically to the the common ancestor of both the Pan and Australopithecus/Homo lines - which would make P. paniscus closer to us genetically. More research will determine if this is true.

I don't have a problem with the use of "gorilla" to refer to all species in the Gorilla genus. I don't consider those species to be vastly different in behavior or social structure. But maybe I just don't know enough about gorillas. I'm willing to listen if someone argues that the term "gorilla" should no longer be used to refer to more than one species.

Studying the differences between P. troglodytes and P. paniscus, though, is very important to understanding the behaviors of the human species - since we can see human similarities to both. The consensus among experts in the field these days is that there is so much difference between them that the very well-known name "chimpanzee" would be confusing if it were to continue to be applied to both species.

Saying "chimpanzees (genus Pan)" was intended to make the "two species" meaning unambiguous. But it doesn't work. To the lay reader who knows little about bonobios, it still could (indeed would) read as meaning "chimpanzees in the genus Pan."

73.202.43.214 (talk) 21:42, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

(My apologies for formatting your reply - this makes it easier to tell who is writing what.) It is extremely highly unlikely that P. paniscus and P. troglodytes have evolved at vastly different rates; that's not how evolutionary drift works, nor is that how we measure evolutionary distances anyway. And if anything, P. paniscus, with its smaller home range, would have a greater competition pressure, leading to a higher rate of change relative to P. troglodytes. This would mean it would be futher from the original Pan line. This is contrary to your thesis that seems to be derived from "bonobos act more like humans in some ways, so they must be more like us genetically, so they must be closer to the original Pan line." This is poor reasoning; it ignores the possibility of parallel evolution, for one, and it over emphasizes the similarities of social behavior of humans and bonobos, which is not borne out in studying wild bonobos, only zoo-raised bonobos.

We do not need to spell it out every time. It's spelled out clearly at chimpanzee, common chimpanzee, and bonobo. It's spelled out in other places where the main topic is closer to the subject of Pan. This place is not the right place to discuss it. - UtherSRG (talk) 15:03, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

There's a huge debate going on about that topic based on genetic similarity Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 23:08, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Some geneticists believe that chimps and bonobos should be placed in the genus Homonidae as apposed to Pan, but officially they aren't hominids Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 23:07, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Homo is the genus. Hominidae is the family - UtherSRG (talk) 13:37, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Well they are already in Hominidae and are Hominids, I think they ("some geneticists") meant they should be placed in genus Homo. Editor abcdef (talk) 00:21, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

There is an RFC that may affect this page

There is an RFC that may affect this page at WikiProject Tree of Life. The topic is Confusion over taxonomy of subtribe Panina and taxon homininae (are chimps hominins)?

Please feel free to comment there. SPACKlick (talk) 16:41, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Article Image Low Resolution

Might wanna get something a little higher Res for such an important article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8:B700:B15:3901:4987:4D6D:1A1F (talk) 05:50, 28 April 2015 (UTC)