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:::Successive generations: (not just generation you are taking it out of its context) isn't ambiguous nor does it exclude anything. No more than evolution is-which has different meanings, or genetic drift-drift can be ambiguous too. You state successive generations doesn't take into account mutations or HGT (which is common in microbes and plants) but how does "time"? Besides all that is addressed in the body of article and this is suppose to a short concise definition. Here is a common dictionary definition: "Biology. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift." Encyclopedia Britannica:"Evolution, theory in biology postulating that the various types of plants, animals, and other living things on Earth have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations." So I would argue it isn't ambiguous and would vote no on your suggestion. It isn't my definition btw mine was years ago with the standard gene centric Dobzhansky definition of shifts in alleles etc. This definition was hammered by numerous editors and I still support it. [[User:GetAgrippa|GetAgrippa]] ([[User talk:GetAgrippa|talk]]) 12:54, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
:::Successive generations: (not just generation you are taking it out of its context) isn't ambiguous nor does it exclude anything. No more than evolution is-which has different meanings, or genetic drift-drift can be ambiguous too. You state successive generations doesn't take into account mutations or HGT (which is common in microbes and plants) but how does "time"? Besides all that is addressed in the body of article and this is suppose to a short concise definition. Here is a common dictionary definition: "Biology. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift." Encyclopedia Britannica:"Evolution, theory in biology postulating that the various types of plants, animals, and other living things on Earth have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations." So I would argue it isn't ambiguous and would vote no on your suggestion. It isn't my definition btw mine was years ago with the standard gene centric Dobzhansky definition of shifts in alleles etc. This definition was hammered by numerous editors and I still support it. [[User:GetAgrippa|GetAgrippa]] ([[User talk:GetAgrippa|talk]]) 12:54, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
::::Your example is evolution as the definition states-change in traits of a population through successive generations. Life is a continuum. The generation before gave birth to your generation of rabbits with 12 long ears and 8 short ears=if the population were not evolving then the proportion of the traits in successive generations won't change if it is a simple Mendelian trait of dominant and recessive and it will be in equilibrium for generations. Now you have changed the population due to natural selection, random death, or migration so the population of 12 big ears and 8 small ears is now equal numbers of both that will now reproduce. The proportion of individuals with the traits has changed that generation from past generations and will for subsequent generations=evolution. [[User:GetAgrippa|GetAgrippa]] ([[User talk:GetAgrippa|talk]]) 13:21, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
::::Your example is evolution as the definition states-change in traits of a population through successive generations. Life is a continuum. The generation before gave birth to your generation of rabbits with 12 long ears and 8 short ears=if the population were not evolving then the proportion of the traits in successive generations won't change if it is a simple Mendelian trait of dominant and recessive and it will be in equilibrium for generations (if no recombination). Now you have changed the population due to natural selection, random death, or migration so the population of 12 big ears and 8 small ears is now equal numbers of both that will now reproduce. These mechanisms act on the variation within the population. The proportion of individuals with the traits has changed that generation from past generations and will for subsequent generations=evolution. Lastly from your response about the fruit flies I think you are conflating ideas. Mutations aren't synonymous with evolution. The mutation has to have an effect and emerge as a biological trait. The initial mutation event had no appreciable trait (it wasn't evolution) and it was only till synthetic pesticides were invented that the mutation emerged as trait. The mutation was meaningless till then and wasn't a "trait". Populations have variation because of a random mutation, or gene flow, or most often genetic recombination during reproduction and then the mechanisms of natural selection, drift, gene flow, etc. can alter that variation in a population such that the traits change over successive generations. [[User:GetAgrippa|GetAgrippa]] ([[User talk:GetAgrippa|talk]]) 13:21, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
:::::::Sorry so long winded and rambling-just one of those weeks. Anyways the problem I see with just time would be this example that would confuse the reader. The
Artic rabbit you come in summer they are all brown you come back in winter they are all white-the population trait changed during this "time" (but it hasn't over successive generations) but this epigenetic change we see isn't evolution-however the trait of coat color being epigenetically sensitive to the environment is evolution as it is passed heritable and passed on over successive generations. Now the trait surely evolved but our monitoring the expression of the trait through "time" isn't evolution-the trait is not evolving by changing coat colors it is passed on to subsequent generations. It is a heritable trait that changed over "time" but isn't evolution because it isn't a change in successive generations. So successive generations makes the distinction it isn't just time such that an epigenetic change like blue or red hydrangeas would be considered evolution. Now there are examples of a heritable epigenetic change that can last over successive generations and later be fixed as an evolutionary change-Lamb, etc. [[Special:Contributions/75.76.251.115|75.76.251.115]] ([[User talk:75.76.251.115|talk]]) 16:56, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

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Evolution has many definitions

Closing useless discussion per WP:NOTAFORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

It should be specified that in common parlance AND scientific journals the word 'evolution' is shorthand for the THEORY of evolution. Evolution is not really ' the change in alleles'. This was stated in better previous versions of this article. I don't know why it has deteriorated so much. John.r.r (talk) 13:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

See Q3 of the FAQ at the top of the page. While you are at it, read the other questions there as well, it will certainly be useful. --McSly (talk) 13:53, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK I will read q3. It it OK with you what apo said to me below??? John.r.r (talk) 14:42, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@John.r.r:, please get to your point instead of wasting everyone's time with your ignorance of Evolution (disambiguation) and refusal to read the talkpage Frequently Asked Questions.--Mr Fink (talk) 13:55, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Mr Fink Is it not against the rules to personally attack editors??? John.r.r (talk) 14:42, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not making a personal attack: please be aware that there is a difference between a personal attack and demanding that you get to whatever point you think you're trying to make, and stop wasting people's time with your inane chatter. You're the one violating rules by repeatedly abusing and misusing the talkpages as though they were forum threads. So, please get to your point if you are capable of doing so, or I will close this thread as per WP:SOAPBOX.--Mr Fink (talk) 14:54, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

McSly, I read Q3 and it really does not pertain to what I am saying. The article at the start should be clear that the word evolution is MOST often used to mean the theory. Rarely is it used to mean 'alleles over time' To put that first is misleading and deceptive. Previous better versions did not make that mistake. Can you tell me where those WP rules are located like WP:NPV etc??? John.r.r (talk) 14:48, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

== NOT using it as a forum! ==

Simply want many parts of this article to return to the way it was years ago. And many others feel the same way. How can consensus develop to change it if you stamp out all those who want to change it?????? Not very democratic. Very dictatorial!

By stamping out discussion you are turning evolution into a pseudoscience:

Attacking the motives or character of anyone who questions the claims. John.r.r (talk) 22:40, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You are the one abusing the talkpage as a forum thread, and hypocritically, whenever I ask that you get to your point, you then falsely accuse me of making a personal attack simply because I didn't kiss your ass.--Mr Fink (talk) 22:47, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
John, it's simple. Suggest the exact changes you want us to consider, cites with appropriate WP:RS, and we can move forward. Otherwise, you're just wasting everybody's time. ldvhl (talk) 22:56, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2015

This sentence is awkward because it lacks parallel construction:

Understanding of evolution has made significant contributions to humanity, including preventing and treating human disease, new agricultural products, industrial innovations, a subfield of computer science and rapid advances in life sciences.[21][22][23]

Here's a suggested modification:

Understanding evolution has advanced humanity. It has led to innovation in fields such as healthcare, agriculture, computer science and life sciences.[21][22][23]

12.238.88.5 (talk) 21:39, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I made a slightly smaller revision to get the phrases lined up. —Torchiest talkedits 02:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Variation

in the sentence "A substantial part of the variation in phenotypes in a population is caused by the differences between their genotypes" what does 'their' refer to? I would suggest replacing this sentence with something along the lines of "A substantial part of the phenotypic variation in a population is caused by genotypic variation". 129.127.101.245 (talk) 07:21, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Their" refers to the phenotypes. The sentence is clear, direct and easy to understand. Proposed construction is clumsy. - Nick Thorne talk 11:14, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
phenotyes don't have genotypes. individuals have genotypes and phenotypes. What is clumsy about the proposed construction? I would posit that the current construction is clumsy. The proposed construction replaces 'variation in phenotypes in a population' with 'phenotypic variation' -- clearly less convoluted and 'clumsy', and in the proposed construction there is also no ambiguity about what 'their' refers to (phenotypes don't have genotypes so the current construction doesn't even make sense).129.127.101.245 (talk) 05:09, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It seems there are no further objections, so I will go ahead and ask for the proposed change to be made.129.127.101.245 (talk) 01:57, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

lead sentence

"Evolution is change in the heritable traits of biological populations over successive generations."

"over successive generations" is not necessary. Heritable traits of biological populations change within generations, e.g. when an individual dies -- this is still evolution. Not to mention, a generation is extremely difficult to define in most cases. "Change" already implies an element of time.

It may also be helpful to define heritable traits in brackets based on the most common definitions and in line with the terminology used in definitions for natural selection and genetic drift (two important evolutionary forces). E.g. heritable traits (alleles, phenotypes)129.127.101.245 (talk) 06:30, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It seems there are no objections, so I will go ahead and ask for the proposed change to be made.129.127.101.245 (talk) 02:07, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2015

please change "A substantial part of the variation in phenotypes in a population is caused by the differences between their genotypes." to "A substantial part of the phenotypic variation in a population is caused by genotypic variation." The current construction is clumsy. The proposed construction replaces 'variation in phenotypes in a population' with 'phenotypic variation' -- clearly less convoluted, and in the proposed construction there is also no ambiguity about what 'their' refers to (phenotypes don't have genotypes so the current construction doesn't make sense). 129.127.101.245 (talk) 02:05, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed and  Done, though I didn't include the wikilinks as those terms are linked earlier. Thanks, Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 13:22, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2015

please change the lead sentence "Evolution is change in the heritable traits of biological populations over successive generations." to "Evolution is change in the heritable traits (alelles, phenotypes) of biological populations." "over successive generations" is not necessary. Heritable traits of biological populations change within generations, e.g. when an individual dies -- this is still evolution. Not to mention, a generation is extremely difficult to define in most cases. "Change" already implies an element of time. It may also be helpful to define heritable traits in brackets based on the most common definitions and in line with the terminology used in definitions for natural selection and genetic drift (two important evolutionary forces). E.g. heritable traits (alleles, phenotypes) 129.127.101.245 (talk) 02:11, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll await a second opinion on this one. I don't like "heritable traits (alleles, phenotypes)", as that wording could be misunderstood to imply "alleles" is a synonym of "traits". It's no true that "change" implies time; for example, the diameter of that tree trunk changes from 2 m at ground level to 1 m higher up. But I take your point about "generations" being unnecessary, and think "Evolution is change in the heritable traits of biological populations over successive generations time" would be an improvement. Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 13:32, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think the sentence is fine and very descriptive-individuals don't evolve-populations do and over successive generations (population genetics). Successive generations refers to asexual reproduction and "sex" which is instrumental in evolution (Mendelian inheritance and recombination and the expression and distribution of traits within a population)) , and implied that different proportions of a trait will be expressed over generations in a specific pattern (in equilibrium) unless random mutation or outside forces-natural selection, drift, gene flow, etc. alter that Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium to produce an evolutionary change. A successive generation will be a different time interval for any given species so "time" really isn't the info we want to express but reproduction and offspring of a "successive generation". Even if an individual expressed a novel mutation and trait if they don't reproduce no evolution has occurred. Then too fruit flies resistance to synthetic pesticides is from a transposon mutation that occurred some 30,000 years ago (that isn't evolution), but not until recent times has evolution taken place with the advent of synthetic pesticides such the mutation found a function in resistance to the pesticide and then through successive generations that evolution has taken place such a change has occurred in the population that now high numbers express this new novel trait because of selective pressure from synthetic pesticides. . Now 80% of the world's fruit flies express this mutation from natural selection acting on the cryptic jumping gene and trait that floated around the population for thousands of years until now and evolution produced a change in the population that now high numbers of the population expresses this novel new trait. Regards, GetAgrippa (talk) 15:31, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: After checking the wiktionary entry and a few other dictionaries[1][2][3], I would say that the wording is fine. Inomyabcs (talk) 23:08, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@ Adrian J. I agree with you that having "heritable traits (alleles, phenotypes)" is not a good idea, and I also see your point re: change and time. I agree that "time" is a good replacement for "generations".
@ GetAgrippa I disagree. As I mentioned, heritable traits of biological populations change within generations, e.g. when an individual dies -- this *is* evolution; it changes the frequency of traits in the population. Also, in your fruit fly example, when the mutation occurred, that *is* evolution (it sounds like you're confusing evolution and natural selection here). Using "generations" is too restrictive; yes, it implies reproduction, which plays an important role in evolution, but it also excludes a bunch of things like mutation (the only source of new variation) and death (integral in both drift and selection). Having "heritable traits" should be enough to imply inheritance and therefore reproduction. Not to mention, "generation" has a very ambiguous definition (actually many) and in most cases cannot be defined for a population, which poses problems if evolution occurs at the population-level. On the other hand, time is inclusive of all processes. 129.127.101.245 (talk) 06:12, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Once consensus is reached, any autoconfirmed editor can edit the article, or the request can be reopened if needed. Thanks, ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 13:29, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree I think you are confusing molecular evolution with biological evolution. Molecular evolution took place with the mutation but the actual biological evolution didn't occur till pesticides were an environmental agent of natural selection-a process of biological evolution. The mutation had no trait (not every mutation is meaningful nor is evolution-mutation isn't evolution) till it jumped into a position to alter a cytochrome P450 gene =the emergent property of the gene interactions is the trait-resistance to pesticides that then natural selection acted on to alter the distribution in the population through successive generations. Individual alway die within a population-that is a given-but it may not change the distribution of traits within the population so no it doesn't equate to evolution always. If the death of individuals randomly or selectively alters the traits of the population so it is no longer in Hardy Weinberg equilibrium then you have evolution. . Death of individuals is a given it doesn't necessarily change the distribution of traits within a population for that generation. Death is due to any number of factors such as chaotic events such as is genetic drift, natural selection of individuals that survive so others die, or a neighboring population migrated in and killed all but a few individuals-gene flow (then too if the two population hybridize more gene flow. Then too those that survive have to reproduce so if only a fraction of individuals reproduce then that will alter the distribution of traits of the population. The population is considered individuals that survive to reproduce-hence fitness. You can predict the distribution of genotypes and phenotypes/traits of a breeding population under the assumptions of Hardy-Weinberg. Anything that alters that equilibrium is Evolution. So the death of individuals randomly in genetic drift will alter it, or selectively with natural selection such certain ones more likely to die will alter it, or say a neighboring population migrates in and kills all but a few individual so gene flow that alter the equilibrium and traits of the population then too hybridization between population can occurs so more gene flow. Then too as you mentioned a random mutation can alter the populations trait too but only if the individual with the mutation reproduces to pass on the trait=a single individual with a trait that isn't propagated isn't evolution Sexual recombination acts generationally to create new combinations of alleles within a population too. It isn't the time that is important more so than generational change-descent with modification. Without "successive generations" you leave out descent which is more important than time. You seem to equate death to evolution which is like equating extinction to evolution both play a role in evolution but aren't evolution. Wikipedia defines Generation as" the act of producing offspring. In kinship terminology, it is a structural term designating the parent-child relationship. It is also known as biogenesis, reproduction, or procreation in the biological sciences." So Evolution is the change in traits of a population through successive generations. How are the traits changed=through successive generations or reproduction=descent with modification. Regards GetAgrippa (talk) 00:17, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a better example-take the Linski longterm E. Coli experiment following the evolution of a cloned bacteria. If you take the first generation of bacteria and froze them in storage-they are alive but aren't evolving because they aren't reproducing-time can continue ad infinitum. Only with successive generations does evolution take place and the time interval per generation may be different as it evolves so time isn't important. The bacteria is a great example too as the citrate trait that evolved did so with multiple mutations and multiple steps but not every mutation was significant. It is generation-reproduction that is most important not time. GetAgrippa (talk) 00:29, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
wow, are you trying to bury this under a wall of text? You've hardly addressed any of the points I made, and when you've attempted, you've failed.
first, I'll address some of the points you made:
The bacteria example really doesn't support your point (but then no example will, because your point is flawed). Nowhere in the proposed definition (using 'time' instead of 'generations') does it state that time is all that is required for evolution -- it is change in heritable traits of biological populations over time; therefore, change in heritable traits is also required. The proposed definition is perfectly applicable to that scenario.
"and the time interval per generation may be different as it evolves so time isn't important" -- this doesn't make sense. Time is clearly important -- can you have generations without time? You're argument seems to be assuming that 'time' should be interpreted as some arbitrarily set time span, whereas the proposed definition doesn't state a set time span, just time. It is broad and as such allows flexibility, and it's not meaningless because it is in the context of the rest of the definition.
"The mutation had no trait [snip] till it jumped into a position to alter a cytochrome P450 gene" -- well that's just another mutation.
"You seem to equate death to evolution" -- no. nowhere have I said death = evolution.
Horizontal gene transfer also puts a hole in your argument. This can transfer traits without reproduction. Just another process on top of mutation and death that can change heritable traits of biological populations without needing reproduction. Remember that I'm not arguing that reproduction isn't important in evolution, just that the current definition excludes all the processes of evolution that operate within generations, whereas the proposed definition will be inclusive of all processes. Let me try to highlight my point with a hypothetical example -- if there was a population that had very neat generation times of, let's say 2 years, and you study the traits in the population in one year and find 12 individuals have big ears and 8 have small ears (it's not a big population, and let's assume that ear size is a heritable trait). You return the next year before breeding (i.e. same generation) and you find that there are now 8 individuals with big ears and 8 individuals with small ears. Would you conclude that evolution hasn't occurred? By the current definition, you'd have to, but does that really make sense? What purpose does an arbitrary line on what change is considered to be evolution or not serve?
Successive generations doesn't negate HGT??? I think you are conflating ideas. Evolution is change in the heritable traits of biological populations over successive generations. How the heritable traits change is by numerous mechanism-that is explained in text. Because life is a continuum of life reproducing life it is in successive generations we see the changes. The change maybe a new mutation, maybe drift, selection, gene flow-which includes HGT, etc. Simple definition that is common to other sources. 75.76.251.115 (talk) 15:00, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Now I'll reiterate some of my main points so they're not lost under this wall of text:
Using "generations" is too restrictive; it excludes a bunch of things like mutation (the only source of new variation) and death (integral in both drift and selection). The use of 'heritable' in the definition implies heredity -- (according to wikipedia) the passing on of physical or mental characteristics genetically from one generation to another -- so the importance of reproduction is still accounted for if 'generations' is changed to 'time'.
That makes no sense-generations doesn't exclude anything just conveys the heritable traits change through generations. How does "time" capture all you state? GetAgrippa (talk) 14:39, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And again, "generation" has a very ambiguous definition (actually many) and in most cases cannot be defined for a population, which poses problems if evolution occurs at the population-level. How can you define evolution if you can't define a generation?129.127.101.245 (talk) 04:23, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it isn't ambiguous-successive generations is very informative and is defined??? It explains life is a continuum with successive generations and that life has been modified through this descent. Evolutionary biologist can't define a species (7 definitions) so I don't see your point-that's why they usually speak in terms of populations.
Successive generations: (not just generation you are taking it out of its context) isn't ambiguous nor does it exclude anything. No more than evolution is-which has different meanings, or genetic drift-drift can be ambiguous too. You state successive generations doesn't take into account mutations or HGT (which is common in microbes and plants) but how does "time"? Besides all that is addressed in the body of article and this is suppose to a short concise definition. Here is a common dictionary definition: "Biology. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift." Encyclopedia Britannica:"Evolution, theory in biology postulating that the various types of plants, animals, and other living things on Earth have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations." So I would argue it isn't ambiguous and would vote no on your suggestion. It isn't my definition btw mine was years ago with the standard gene centric Dobzhansky definition of shifts in alleles etc. This definition was hammered by numerous editors and I still support it. GetAgrippa (talk) 12:54, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Your example is evolution as the definition states-change in traits of a population through successive generations. Life is a continuum. The generation before gave birth to your generation of rabbits with 12 long ears and 8 short ears=if the population were not evolving then the proportion of the traits in successive generations won't change if it is a simple Mendelian trait of dominant and recessive and it will be in equilibrium for generations (if no recombination). Now you have changed the population due to natural selection, random death, or migration so the population of 12 big ears and 8 small ears is now equal numbers of both that will now reproduce. These mechanisms act on the variation within the population. The proportion of individuals with the traits has changed that generation from past generations and will for subsequent generations=evolution. Lastly from your response about the fruit flies I think you are conflating ideas. Mutations aren't synonymous with evolution. The mutation has to have an effect and emerge as a biological trait. The initial mutation event had no appreciable trait (it wasn't evolution) and it was only till synthetic pesticides were invented that the mutation emerged as trait. The mutation was meaningless till then and wasn't a "trait". Populations have variation because of a random mutation, or gene flow, or most often genetic recombination during reproduction and then the mechanisms of natural selection, drift, gene flow, etc. can alter that variation in a population such that the traits change over successive generations. GetAgrippa (talk) 13:21, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry so long winded and rambling-just one of those weeks. Anyways the problem I see with just time would be this example that would confuse the reader. The

Artic rabbit you come in summer they are all brown you come back in winter they are all white-the population trait changed during this "time" (but it hasn't over successive generations) but this epigenetic change we see isn't evolution-however the trait of coat color being epigenetically sensitive to the environment is evolution as it is passed heritable and passed on over successive generations. Now the trait surely evolved but our monitoring the expression of the trait through "time" isn't evolution-the trait is not evolving by changing coat colors it is passed on to subsequent generations. It is a heritable trait that changed over "time" but isn't evolution because it isn't a change in successive generations. So successive generations makes the distinction it isn't just time such that an epigenetic change like blue or red hydrangeas would be considered evolution. Now there are examples of a heritable epigenetic change that can last over successive generations and later be fixed as an evolutionary change-Lamb, etc. 75.76.251.115 (talk) 16:56, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]