Talk:Garden of Eden

Jesus in the Garden of Eden

There is a traditional Christian belief which claims that Jesus was in the Garden of Eden at the time of Eve's innocence. This belief has been represented in the paintings of Hieronymus Bosch. Since it is a fairly unusual belief, it ought to be researched more in depth in order to find out where it came from. [1] ADM (talk) 16:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I've heard that theory too. Essentially, when God talks to Adam and Eve in Genesis 2, and when God walks in the garden in Genesis 3, "God" is actually Jesus (since, according to most Christian beliefs, Jesus is God). See particularly Genesis 3:3 -

"Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day" (GEN 3:3 NIV)

--Hendrixjoseph (talk) 23:02, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Lord is a title of power, Lord God is meant as a different person to Lord Jesus. Slightnostalgia (talk) 13:04, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Gobekli Tepe as a suspected location

I propose a link to Gobekli Tepe as a suspected location, even if it's only in the "See also" section.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobekli_Tepe

Dianaramadani (talk) 01:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC) The only thing in our article relevant is a couple of links, but see [2] - this is so tenuous it just floats away. No one is seriously claiming this so far as I can tell. dougweller (talk) 05:59, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree, however this is a city, there were many fourth race cities around the dawn of the bible. The true location is Elazig in Turkey. There is a dried lake bed of green water, there you will find eden is indeed true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asfd8888 (talk • contribs) 22:11, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

First, the discussion was over five years ago. Second, Wikipedia merely summarizes reliable sources and is more concerned with verifiability, not "truth". Ian.thomson (talk) 01:56, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Author Andrew Collins in his work "Gobekli Tepe: Genesis of the Gods. The Temple of the Watchers and the Discovery of Eden" adduces a convincing argument that Garden of Eden existed in the Armenian Highlands (or Armenian Plateau), in the Plain of Mush of ancient region of Taron in Greater Armenia, that is north of Gobekli Tepe and west of the Lake Van, and not in Gobekli Tepe. In this context, Collins uses extensively the correct toponyms, such as "historical Armenia", "Greater Armenia", "Armenian Highlands", "Armenian region of Taron", etc. in which, based on his findings, the Garden may have existed. The fact that the Plain of Mush is now located in Turkey as a result of mass murders and forced deportation of the entire Armenian population during the Armenian Genocide in Ottoman Turkey, doesn't change the historically known toponyms, such as Armenian Highlands, or the fact of existence of many Armenian sanctuaries, such as the Monastery of Yeghrdut, which Collins particularly emphasizes as being--possibly--an important landmark that came to existence as a result of Armenian Biblical traditions that placed the Garden of Eden close to that monastery. Therefore, at least as one possible site for the Garden, the Armenian Highlands ought to be mentioned in the article with reference to the reliable source, i.e Collins' account.71.191.12.221 (talk) 18:25, 10 August 2015 (UTC)Davidian71.191.12.221 (talk) 18:25, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

how does a book written by 2 fringe authors and published by a fringe publisher meet our criteria at reliable sources? Doug Weller (talk) 19:04, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

And how one can characterize—or stigmatize, rather—an author or a publisher as being “fringe”? Is there a clear-cut definition of authors being fringe and non-fringe? The publisher, Bear & Company, aka Inner Traditions, publishes books related to several areas of interest, including Earth mysteries. How does the publisher meet your criteria at reliable sources? Simple, I guess. IRS states: “Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered”. Collins’ account is (a) a published source; and (b) in it, plenty of majority and minority views on possible locations of the Garden of Eden, which are found in ancient, medieval, modern, and traditional ethnic accounts, are covered.71.191.12.221 (talk) 19:34, 10 August 2015 (UTC)Davidian71.191.12.221 (talk) 19:34, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement on the Gobekli Tepe claim from the Deutsches Archaeologisches Institut

"From the Deutsches Archaeologisches Institut: [3]: On February 28th the Daily Mail published an article by Tom Cox, in which Prof. Dr. Klaus Schmidt, leader of the Göbekli Tepe excavations, is cited as follows: "Göbekli Tepe is a temple in Eden". On the basis of this, the author formulates several conclusions about the biblical paradise, Adam and Eve and other events connected to the Book of Genesis in the Old Testament. Several German- and Turkish-language newspapers and radio stations of german and turkish language have picked up on the contents of the article since its publication.
"Tom Cox" or "Tom Knox" is a pseudonym of the British journalist Sean Thomas, who used the article to get publicity for his thriller "Genesis Secret", which is due to appear in March in English and simultaneously in German. Since Sean Thomas is using a falsified version of an interview with Klaus Schmidt made in fall 2006, he presents a distortion of the scientific work of the German Archaeological Institute.
The German Archaeological Institute (DAI) distances itself from these statements and reserves the right to take legal action against further dissemination of the story in connection with the work of the DAI at Göbekli Tepe. Klaus Schmidt neither in an interview nor on any other occasion made the above mentioned statements." That's pretty clear, we shouldn't use the Daily Mail stuff. dougweller (talk) 09:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Dante

I think the page warrants a mention of the Earthly Paradise at the top of Mt Purgatory in the Divine Comedy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.106.71 (talk) 14:05, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

• Yes it do! Go ahead and put it in there... Drmies (talk) 20:36, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Basic Facts with no POV

This article needs to be present the basic facts with no POV. This is what I mean:

• Basic fact: "The Garden of Eden is described in the Book of Genesis"
• Personl POV's: "The Garden of Eden is described in the Book of Genesis. This is a myth. The is part of Abrahamic myths."

Now the article already states that the source is the Bible. Fact. Done. If you now have your own personal opinions that the Bible is all myth, which is great, but they don't belong here at all. They belong over in the Bible article. Please go there and put them in, and leave the pedantic qualification, upon qualification out of this article. SAE (talk) 15:57, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

DreamGuy is deleting everything and called everyone who disagrees with his opinion a POV-pusher. I would appreciate if he would begin to use the talk pages and not erase everything in sight. This is my 4th attempt at trying to have a civil discussion with him. Hopefully he will respond to this. SAE (talk) 13:31, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Ethiopia paragraph, in Location - Africa

This paragraph is unsourced and has other problems. While it is true important human and pre-human fossils have been found in Ethiopia, the statement that "Paleontologists have excavated six million years of life" seems like an exaggeration or oversimplification. I also don't believe that they have concluded "that Ethiopia is the scientific location of human origin", since australopicine fossils have been found in other areas of eastern and southern Africa, too. This paragraph needs revision. Jbartelt9 (talk) 16:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The Other Gods?

The Biblical Garden of Eden story has close parallels with other Ancient Near East stories, most of which are polytheistic. I'd be interested to see inclusion of arguments for and against the view that the Biblical story retains some polytheistic elements. Is the Serpent another God? Are the Cherubim with flaming swords (Gen 3:24) Gods? When God says (Gen 3:22) "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever" who is he talking to? (clearly not to Adam or Eve). Who else is he referring to when he says "one of us'? --Tediouspedant (talk) 15:15, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Sources "one+of+us"+polytheism&lr=&as_brr=3&ei=dnWSS92qIaD2MNPJ_NUM&cd=11#v=onepage&q=garden%20of%20eden%20%22one%20of%20us%22%20polytheism&f=false, "one+of+us"+polytheism&ei=OXWSS-_jJ4SMNtz0lPsM&cd=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false, "one+of+us"+polytheism&ei=OXWSS-_jJ4SMNtz0lPsM&cd=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false. Dougweller (talk) 15:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

In hebrew you pluralize as a sign of veneration, not actually to imply multiple, translated to english i can see how it appears differetnly then in hebrew though.. As for the cherubim and serpent , there is nothing that suggests they are gods. Seeing as this theory would be WP: fringe, it would be giving undue weight even if you find some source that would actually suggest polytheism in early judaism (espeically given that the early books make polytheism a grave sin, and contradict this notion. Unless you word it very cleverly to simply say that there are some adaptations from other near east stories, without actually suggesting polytheism in judaism itself. I.E. they took a ploytheistic story, dropped the other gods, and baam Judaism! (written less stupidly then i just did and sourced of course) Smitty1337 (talk) 19:46, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

"In hebrew you pluralize as a sign of veneration". No, you don't - there's no "royal plural" in Hebrew or other Semitic languages. The plural ending on elohim is simply a grammatical oddity, not a sign of respect. The seraphim were just snakes (literally "burning ones"), but also, with a different usage, serpent-demons (the seraphs in Isaiah were "burning" in the literal sense, but also probably had snake-bodies in addition to their wings and human heads and hands - there are depictions of them in the archaeological record). PiCo (talk) 07:27, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you can in some cases: cf. not just the data on Elohim you cited, but also things like the fact that the name of the great beast Behemoth is the plural of Hebrew bəhēmâ, "beast". Adam Restling (talk) 12:10, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

The real location of Eden

Dougweller seems to continually delete the suggested location of Kharsag / The Rachaya Basin, Lebanon - and is mistakenly claiming Laurence Gardner's mainstream published book "The Origin of God" by Dash House Publishing is inadmissable on Wikipedia on the basis that this is "self-published". He is wrong, they are a reputable publishing house, please recheck and restore as appropriate.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.111.32.44 (talk • contribs)

Dash House Publishing [4] - its front page clearly says "print on demand enables authors to print from only one book to thousands. You, the author, decide how many. You may wish to publish the family story for relatives and friends, or you may be a bestseller yet to be discovered. POD gives you the freedom to publish your work and reach your chosen readership cost effectively." This is not a mainstream publishing house, this is print on demand. Dougweller (talk) 17:24, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Bah! I'll get you next time Penelope Pitstop!!! Just wait until someone verifiable reviews it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.111.32.44 (talk) 02:18, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Gan 'Edhen or Gan Ba(r) Edhen?

I'm from Romania. In highschool, my teacher for "History of Religions" class(he was 1/4 jewish ...grandmother from mother's side) told us that the correct name is Gan Bar Edhen, with a whispered, almost extinct "r". He gave us 2 versions: Gan Ba'Eden and Ba'Gan Eden, but I don't remember what was the difference between them, it was about 15 years ago. Bigshotnews 08:41, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I've heard of Ge Ben Hinnom ("valley of the son of Hinnom") as being the truer name of Ge Hinnom (source of the word Gehenna), but not this "Gan Bar Eden" (which would seem to be "garden of the son of Eden", using Aramaic bar "son"), and a Google search seems to turn up nothing, either. Perhaps the teacher was wrong, or citing some other thing/construction? Adam Restling (talk) 11:59, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

'Bar' can also mean "(having a quality) of". E.g. "bar kayma" - sustainable development. WillNess (talk) 13:45, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

The Garden of Eden is Kashmir Valley

Some good people have been reaserching and found that The Garden of Eden is Kashmir Valley This interesting map based on that research: http://www.jesus-kashmir-tomb.com/sitebuilder/images/Map_to_Graves-691x418.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bocah anon (talk • contribs) 08:57, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Do you have any peer-reviewed material by modern, accredited scientists who actually have kept track of the past century of anthropological and genetic studies, and who have given up on nationalistic biases? Because the material you're presenting doesn't look like that. You have a map from a map from a tourist trap. That doesn't amount to any sort of evidence. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:46, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

David Rohl - no POV

Whoever did the addition of David Rohl and his Eden (edin) theories summarized fairly... right up to the last sentence. They then wrote an opinion. My opinion is that David Rohl's ideas are some of the best I've ever heard (and I've heard a lot) but my opinion does not belong here either.

Please delete the last sentence in the David Rohl/Valley of Tabriz section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joenitwit (talk • contribs) 12:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• I second the motion to remove this POV. Rohl's ideas were great, if a little dated now.Paul Bedson ❉talk❉ 13:05, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Why would we remove something sourced to a well knowna archaeologist? Eric Cline is a reliable source. I did remove the image however citing WP:UNDUE, none of the other fringe ideas have images (which is I think correct). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 13:31, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Pishon and Gihon

Dear "scientists" It's totally known where is Pishon and Gihon. Pishon is ancient name for Danube river and I know minimum two middle-age documents where it is axiom:

1. Pseudo-Caesarius - "Caesarii Dialogi" or "Questiones et responsiones". For us is interesting answer of qusetion 110. where he wrote about Slavic tribes who was migrating to Balkan Pennisula "...How again that on the other land S(k)lavs and Danubians, who named Pishones, too." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarius_of_Nazianzus book - http://www.scribd.com/doc/57783059/S-Caesarii-Dialogi-IV-Didymi-Caeci-De-Spiritua-Sancto-Contra-Manichaeos-S-Phoebadii-Contra-Arianos-De-Fide-orthadoxa-De-fide-1836

2. Constantine the Philosopher - "Biography of Despot Stefan Lazarević", the first humanistic book on the Balkan, where he said that Fishon or Pishon is Danube and Gihon is Nil.

How to understand this? Very easy, Adam is symbol of all men in the world, Eden is symbol of human civilization, place where was the easier place to live. On the Danube River was the first neolithic "civilization" of Lepenski Vir, Vinča and Starčevo, Egypt is the second civilizacion and Messopothamy is the third.

Lepenski vir - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir Vinča - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_culture

Man of the Vinča has maybe the first alphabet in the world, which is prove that this is civilization: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_symbols — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blexandar (talk • contribs) 10:15, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

That may be the problem: you cite "middle-age" documents--for example, Caesarius of Nazianzus apparently lived around 331-368 CE--while the Torah is estimated as having been composed ca. eight centuries earlier (450 BCE), parts from sources even older. So terms like "Gihon" and "Pishon" in Genesis vs. these much-later accounts don't seem prevailing in their connections. The matter-of-fact, didactic claiming of its authenticity, thus, seems faulty. Adam Restling (talk) 11:54, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Etymology

Just wanted to make this note, since without it, the current etymological section seems incomplete to me.

According to John Huehnergard's list of Proto-Semitic roots (as featured in The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language), Eden does mean "delight", deriving from a Central Semitic noun *ġadan, *ġidn "softness, tenderness, verdure" (root ġdn); the phoneme ġ, as usual, became Hebrew /ʿ/ (ʿayin).

The resemblance of the Hebrew form (if not its ancestor) to Sumerian edin is often raised, and interesting, but doesn't prove much: the Bible is full of linguistic and phonetic punning with terms that don't seem to truly be related, such as connecting Hebel ("Abel") to a homophonous word hebel "vaporous, ephemeral", or Qayin ("Cain") to Eve's comment on his birth, "I have gotten (קניתי qānîtî ) a man with the help of the Lord"--despite the likely true, quite different, theorized etymologies of their names. Adam Restling (talk) 11:38, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Islamic Garden of Eden

I have no objection to including the Quranic garden, and in fact it would be a good idea, but so far there are no sources. We'll do it in time. PiCo (talk) 05:58, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

There are variations in the narative sure, but that doesn't mean that the translation isn't still valid.Smitty1337 (talk) 06:20, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand - what translation, and what variations in what narrative? PiCo (talk) 07:51, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I mean that there are differences between Eden story from the bible to the Quran. But that shouldn't exclude the arabic translation of the name Garden of Eden. It is relevent in that language. Smitty1337 (talk) 10:47, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I see. When we get to dealing with the Quranic garden we can add it - but is it going to help anyone who can't read Arabic? PiCo (talk) 11:29, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

It's the same garden. As for who it will help, how does any translation help anyone who doesnt speak that language? Generally wiki seems to put translations in the lede that are relevent to the topic, arabic and hebrew are both relevent. Even if the article is lacking in a description of islamic interpretation, it is still a relevent language to the subject. (though I'm really arguing as a devil's advocate: in reality i think you make an interesting point, i think that translations really dont serve much purpose aside from trivia)Smitty1337 (talk) 09:14, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear that you're playing Devil's advocate :). We'll just take it slowly - I'll go slowly through the references I've gathered and make edits as they become obvious.

There are at least two articles in Wiki already on the Islamic Eden/Paradise - they look pretty complete. We shouldn't go too far here to simply duplicate what's available there. That's my view, anyway. PiCo (talk) 07:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

There should be some mention of the Arabic tradition of the location of Eden being the site that still goes under that place name (Aden, or Ad'n in Arabic). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.232.226.167 (talk) 02:13, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Uner the Persian Gulf

Isn't this a bit long? Why should it be given so much space? Dougweller (talk) 12:34, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Definitely too long, and the sources look rather non-reliable to me. The best basic source is Tsumura's "I Studied...", which is a collection of important articles on the subject. Tsmumura's introduction is an excellent summary of the way scholarly thinking had evolved to that point. PiCo (talk) 22:56, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Then can you fix it, as I don't have the book. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 07:17, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

The Garden of Eden

Is the Garden of Eden mention in the bible, Is it the land of Paradise that Jesus said to one of the two robbers that got crucified with Jesus on mount Calvary? and secondly, is that garden of Eden which some of us said that it to be Paradise, does it exist on earth or is it in Heaven?.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.62.121.67 (talk) 21:35, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Banishment from Eden to prevent eating the Tree of Life.

21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Editor2020 (talk) 02:35, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

tree of life

hi my question is that in bible there is no menstion about tree of life could you explian to me ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.82.74.166 (talk) 06:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

GARDEN OF EDEN

If you read the book of EZEKIEL with understanding in some verses EDEN is used as a comparison to both SATAN and cities names in the verses, as a form of destruction to both. It is not implying that Eden is located in Lebenon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.126.210.61 (talk) 19:29, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Not sure

what you meant by your edit summary Pass a Method talk

Quran in the lead

I heave reverted the addition of the Quran into the lead sentence. It read "most notably in the Quran and the Book of Genesis but the most notable appearance would be in Genesis. StAnselm (talk) 22:17, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

What makes you say that? Pass a Method talk 08:21, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Isn't it reasonable to say that of all the religious texts that describe the Garden of Eden, the Quran and the Book of Genesis are the [two] most notable? You could add "two" and this dispute would be resolved, although I think it's unnecessary since readers can probably just count. You could also drop "most notably".- MrX 13:19, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

It is particularly the "most notable" phrase that was the problem, since the Quranic occurrence is secondary and derivative. Doing a Google search, "Garden of Eden" Bible -Quran -Koran gives 2.94 million hits, while "Garden of Eden" Quran -Bible gives 70,800 hits. That's a significant difference. StAnselm (talk) 18:16, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

I have moved the mention of the Quran to a separate sentence - it flows better that way. StAnselm (talk) 18:18, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

The reason for that is because the Quran has dozens of transliterations including quran, koran, qur'an, alkoran, coran, alquran, qoran, Qur'ân, Qur'ān, Qurʾān, Ḳurʾān, etc. With so many transliteraions a google return count is not indicative of notability. Pass a Method talk 20:32, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, do you have any other suggestions for determining notability then? Is there any particular reason you think the Quranic usage is as significant or notable as the biblical usage? StAnselm (talk) 20:39, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

It is as notable since polls show Muslims are more religious than Christians, which is further reflected on the page religious states. is there any reason you think the Quran is not as notable as the Bible? Pass a Method talk 21:11, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with the notability of the Quran - what it concerns is whether the Garden of Eden is referred to in a Quranic rather than a biblical context in reliable sources. StAnselm (talk) 07:41, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Göbekli Tepe

"From the Deutsches Archaeologisches Institut: [5]: On February 28th the Daily Mail published an article by Tom Cox, in which Prof. Dr. Klaus Schmidt, leader of the Göbekli Tepe excavations, is cited as follows: "Göbekli Tepe is a temple in Eden". On the basis of this, the author formulates several conclusions about the biblical paradise, Adam and Eve and other events connected to the Book of Genesis in the Old Testament. Several German- and Turkish-language newspapers and radio stations of german and turkish language have picked up on the contents of the article since its publication.
"Tom Cox" or "Tom Knox" is a pseudonym of the British journalist Sean Thomas, who used the article to get publicity for his thriller "Genesis Secret", which is due to appear in March in English and simultaneously in German. Since Sean Thomas is using a falsified version of an interview with Klaus Schmidt made in fall 2006, he presents a distortion of the scientific work of the German Archaeological Institute.
The German Archaeological Institute (DAI) distances itself from these statements and reserves the right to take legal action against further dissemination of the story in connection with the work of the DAI at Göbekli Tepe. Klaus Schmidt neither in an interview nor on any other occasion made the above mentioned statements."
Dougweller (talk) 15:22, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

You added some political rubbish connecting Jerusalem with the garden of Eden, obviously some political religious rationale from pro Israel sentiments of some sort or another. Really it is a very lame ridiculous thing you restored. Just because there is some citation about it does not mean it could be included. Nearly any lame brained idea has followers and a citation can be mustered. Its obvious pov from someone. Also the above thing about Göbekli Tepe being some kind of scam seems far fetched. Its a famous site that happened in a time and place. You deny the significance and connection to the Garden of Eden concept, well that seems really out of line also. If this article is so controlled with pov, I will not touch it again. Right now it is not good. Earl King Jr. (talk) 16:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I'd say it's following our policy and guideline at WP:VERIFY and WP:RS. Everyone has a pov - you clearly do as your objection to Professor Terje Stordalen's book seems to be that it doesn't fit your pov. Dougweller (talk) 21:53, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I am taking this article off my watch list and will not touch it with a ten foot pole as it appears to be the playground of pov pushers. Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:17, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. You clearly don't understand WP:NPOV or WP:RS, so it's a good idea for you not to edit this. Dougweller (talk) 08:32, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Zarins view inadequately portrayed

According to Edward L. Ochsenschlager: Iraq's Marsh Arabs in the Garden of Eden (University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, 2004)[6] "One of the most prominent theorists on this topic, Juris Zarins, believes the Garden of Eden lies some 200 miles south of Sumer under the waters of the Persian Gulf, and he thinks that the story of Adam and Eve, both in and out of the Garden, is a highly condensed and evocative account of the shift from hunting /gathering to agriculture.*" Dougweller (talk) 13:33, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Proposed locations

How correct is it to say that "the Garden of Eden is considered by most scholars to be mythical"? The Garden figures in the Bible. To state that it is mythical based on works of just a couple of scholars is to indirectly imply that the Holy Scripture is a compilation of myths. Whereas many geographical places and events mentioned in the Bible are confirmed by scholars to be geographically and historically correct. Other scholars believe that Garden of Eden is not only not mythical, but it had actually existed on Earth, since the Bible mentions the names of rivers that up to this day exist.71.191.12.221 (talk) 23:41, 11 August 2015 (UTC)Davidian71.191.12.221 (talk) 23:41, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

So you'd disagree with a statement that said "Most scholars consider Adam and Eve to be mythical"? Sorry, but unless you define 'scholars' very narrowly, you're wrong. All Creationists obviously do, but how many historians and archaeologists do? And it's a lot more than a couple of religious scholars that view it as myth. Doug Weller (talk) 09:32, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Have I uttered a word about Adam and Eve? I commented on the possible physical location of the Garden of Eden and that it is wrong to outrightly state that “most scholars consider it to be mythical”, because many scholars, i.e. specialists in a particular branch of study, distinguished academics (definition by Oxford English Dictionary), suggest the opposite. One of them is John Morris, a creationist according to his convictions, but with a doctorate in geological engineering and with solid experience of teaching and research as professor of geology. Another one is Eric Cline, professor of classics and anthropology with degrees from Dartmouth, Yale, and the University of Pennsylvania, who in his book “From Eden to Exile: Unraveling Mysteries of the Bible” examines the possibility of the Garden’s physical, not mythical, location. There are many other distinguished scholars who do the same. But I fear that for Wikipedia their credentials will always pale in comparison to those who consider the locations and events described in the Bible as mythical…71.191.9.3 (talk) 13:56, 21 October 2015 (UTC)Davidian

It never occurred to me that we weren't considering scholars in a relevant field. So let me add that caveat. Morris isn't a scholar in this area. Cline discusses speculations on its location but actually says at the end of the chapter that "It is hard to put the Garden...into historical context, for it belongs to the realm of prehistory, if not myth or legend." In his next sentence he says that most of Genesis 1-11 seems "to be more literary than historical." He does say that there may be a "historical kernel of truth" in that the relevant region saw the beginnings of agriculture, and that both "the Mesooptamiam myths and the stories in the Hebrew Bible have their origins in the simple fact that it was this region that first saw the flowering of agriculture...." He speculates where it might have been if it existed, and concludes the chapter with a quote from Victor Horowitz: "I doubt we'll ever find Eden outside the pages of the Bible." Doug Weller (talk) 14:39, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Which area? Biblical Archeology? Except for William Foxwell Albright, none of the authors that you have as “most” scholars who consider the Garden of Eden to be mythological, is a Biblical archeologist. Again, Cline looks into the topic from the position of locating the Garden’s physical, not mythical, site. Cline also refers to many scholars and authors, such as Juris Zarins, James Sauer, David Rohl, Michael Sanders, Gary Greenberg, Joseph Smith, etc. who consider the Garden of Eden to be physical. Yet, this Wikipedia article only cites those authors who consider it mythological. As you can see, the list of their opponents is no smaller or less impressive.71.191.9.3 (talk) 15:07, 21 October 2015 (UTC)Davidian

I suggest that the phrase "by most scholars" in "[...]the Garden of Eden is considered by most scholars to be mythological" be removed. References to the garden's mythological location found in the article do not outnumber those whose authors advocate for the garden's physical location.71.191.12.193 (talk) 20:48, 6 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian

Many editors are more familiar with Wikipedia policies than I am. Still, I note from WP:DUE that neutrality requires articles "fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources". My interpretation of this is that we don't weigh content in direct proportion to the number of sources citing a certain view. Instead, reliable sources are given the greatest weight (or maybe all the weight). Isambard Kingdom (talk) 20:56, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

References 21 to 27 are all significant viewpoints by non-fringe scholars, published by reliable sources. If WP:DUE advocates neutrality, as it does, then the phrase "by most scholars" should be changed to a more neutral "by some scholars", given the fact that several other scholars hold opposing views both in terms of their content and their number.71.191.12.193 (talk) 21:10, 6 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian

Those sources might not be as reliable or as supportive as you seem to think. [21] Paradise Lust (yes, that is the title) is a summary of the culture of wanting to find Eden. [25] is an incomplete citation, which should be removed. At least one of the others is a conference paper of content I do not know. Note that these are citations to "speculation". Isambard Kingdom (talk) 21:34, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Agree with removing [21]. Actually this reference existed in the text before my edit.71.191.12.193 (talk) 21:53, 6 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian

Why remove [21]? That is actually rather scholarly as these things go! I've suggested that [25] be removed. Looks like [22] is self-published. Several others look odd and/or are just conference papers. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 22:08, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, that the garden is mythological is also a “speculation”. Not to say that except for William Albright, none of the authors that Wikipedia cites as “most” scholars who “consider the Garden of Eden to be mythological”, is an—Biblical—archaeologist. Whereas Juris Zarins is an archaeologist, James Sauer was an archaeologist, David Rohl is an archaeologist (Egyptologist), Gary Greenberg is an archaeologist specializing in ancient history and Biblical studies, and Ephraim Speiser was an archaeologist (Assyriologist). I don’t see how the list of scholars who consider the garden mythological outnumbers or outweighs in terms of content those who consider it physical.71.191.0.159 (talk) 22:11, 6 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian

[25] needs to be removed, yes, although the author figures in Eric Cline's accounts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.0.159 (talk) 22:26, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

We are using Hamblin's article twice, 22 and 27 - and she is only reporting Zarins, not saying she agrees. The fact that someone is claiming Greenberg is a scholar and an archaeologist is very worrying, he's a lawyer writing fringe booksw.[7]. Doug Weller (talk) 08:25, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Brook Wilensky-Lanford isn't a scholar, she's a writer, probably a good one, but not a scholar, archaeologist, etc. Again she needs to be removed from any list of scholars. Doug Weller (talk) 10:43, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I removed what seem to be either dubious citations or incomplete citations, changed the sentence to accommodate the "popular" aspect of "Paradise Lust" and, more generally, speculations represented in the press. Hopefully this is a step forward, but, as always, reliable sources are welcome. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 15:05, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

In addition to Gary Greenberg being a lawyer, he is also a scholar. He serves as president of the Biblical Archaeology Society of New York, is a member of The Society of Biblical Literature, The Egypt Exploration Society, The American Research Center in Egypt, and The Archaeological Institute of America, and has written extensively on ancient history, mythology, and biblical studies. What is so “worrying” about someone holding two or more specializations and how a membership in serious organizations makes an author “fringe”, only Wikipedia editors would know. As one example, Russian composer Alexander Borodin was also a chemist…71.191.0.159 (talk) 19:03, 7 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian

All references to scholars, who were added as advocates of a hypothesis that the garden had physically existed on Earth, are effectively removed. Juris Zarins, James Sauer, David Rohl, Ephraim Speiser, and, yes, Gary Greenberg as biblical studies expert—all are (some were) scholars in archaeology. It looks like the neutrality, according to WP:DUE, is upset.71.191.0.159 (talk) 19:15, 7 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian

No, Greenberg isn't a scholar. None of that makes him a scholar. By scholar we normally mean an academic. He's an amateur historian. The organisations he belongs to are irrelevant. And it's his publications that are fringe. Eg Moses was Pharoah Akhnaten's High Priest, etc. He's not an expert by any means. And the others you mention do not all (if any of them do) argue that there was a literal Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve were created. Doug Weller (talk) 19:29, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

In "From Eden to Exile: Unraveling Mysteries of the Bible", scholar Eric Cline (academic, right?) cites all of them as scholars who "have suggested the original Garden of Eden might have been located in or near [Mesopotamia]". Every one of them has suggested its possible physical location: in Persian Gulf, Arabian Peninsula, Iran, Egypt, etc., respectively. Bringing Adam and Eve to the talk on the possible physical location of the Garden is irrelevant.71.191.0.159 (talk) 19:49, 7 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian

If we assume that Greenberg is an amateur historian, let’s then take a look at the backgrounds of “scholars”, whom the article has cited as references to the following clause: “Although the Garden of Eden is considered to be mythological by most scholars”. Okay, let’s see who the “most scholars” in [16,17,18,19,20] are background-wise: [16] Howard Schwartz is a folklorist and a poet, [17] Arthur George is a mythologist, [18] Jean Delumeau is a Catholic Church researcher, [19] Robert Graves was a poet, classical novelist, and critic, and Raphael Patai was an anthropologist and Jewish folklorist, [20] W.F. Albright was an archaeologist and a biblical scholar.

Thus, out of six (including joint authorship) authors only one, W.F. Albright, is a scholar (i.e. academic) with experience in archaeology. How does this make the rest of them “scholars” and “most” is being left to the discretion of the editors and Wikipedia policies and regulations.71.191.0.159 (talk) 16:07, 9 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian

• "in China; at the North Pole; at Jerusalem; in Sri Lanka; at Berlin; under the Mediterranean Sea; in the Seychelles; and at various locations in Africa and the Americas." Why is this change kept in the article? Two out of four rivers flowing out of Eden are firmly known to the historians. Hiddekel is identified as the Tigris River and Perat is associated with the Euphrates. These two rivers are nowhere near China, Sri Lanka, the Seychelles or Africa/Americas. Please remove the above insertion from the aricle.71.191.0.18 (talk) 23:03, 12 February 2016 (UTC)Davidian

 Done Isambard Kingdom (talk) 23:35, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Suggested location does not mean 'not mythical'

It seems to me that we are talking about two perspectives on the Garden of Eden. One is that of those who believe that God created man there. The other is that of those who don't believe that. As I've pointed out several sections above, with a source, Zarins is one of the latter. If you read Hamblin, she makes this clear, as does Edward L. Ochsenschlager whom I cite above. Although Rohl thinks he has found historical evidence for the stories in the Bible, he doesn't claim that there was a Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve were created. Doug Weller (talk) 11:13, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

No. This discussion has nothing to do with the belief or disbelief in Genesis. This discussion is about an incorrect assertion in the article that “most” scholars consider the Garden to be mythological, and that at the same time there is “some" popular speculation about its possible location. Several scholars (biblical archaeologists) have suggested its physical location.71.191.0.159 (talk) 19:37, 7 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian

Of course it does. There's a huge difference between believing that there was an actual Garden of Eden and suggesting that a location for the place that later became the basis for the story of the Garden of Eden. Doug Weller (talk) 21:50, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

As Cline says, "It is conceivable, however, that there is a historical kernel of truth at the base of the Garden of Eden story, because, as Speiser notes, “To the writer of the account in Gen. 2:8 . . . the Garden of Eden was obviously a geographic reality.” If there is some historical truth to the account, it would seem to be the fact that the region of Mesopotamia was home to the Fertile Crescent, which stretched in an arc from the Persian Gulf to southern Turkey and saw the origins of agriculture and the first domestication of animals from approximately 10,000 b.c. onward. It may well be that both the various Mesopotamian myths and the stories in the Hebrew Bible have their origins in the simple fact that it was this region that first saw the flowering of agriculture, both back during the original neolithic revolution around 10,000 b.c. and then again during the introduction of irrigation during the fourth millennium b.c." and "As Victor Hurowitz, professor of Bible and ancient Near Eastern studies at Ben-Gurion University, once said: “I doubt we’ll ever find Eden outside the pages of the Bible.” Doug Weller (talk) 21:56, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

The fact that there is a host of authors who consider the Garden of Eden mythical and that there is a host of authors who consider it physical has nothing to do whatsoever with any of those authors’ belief or disbelief in that biblical story. Why? Because none of the scholars representing both camps is basing his or her speculations on their religious beliefs or atheist convictions. The prevailing majority of authors who proposed actual locations of the Garden are scholars trained and experienced in the scientific field of Biblical Archaeology, and not in the field of Theology. Cline is just one of them, and his opinion is one of many, but the fact remains that Wikipedia removed an edit that would tell its readers that there are other scholars who suggested actual locations of the Garden. Neutrality, according to WP:DUE, has been effectively upset.71.191.0.159 (talk) 15:42, 9 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian

You still don't get it. There are scholars who think that the story of the Garden of Eden and other myths originated from things that happened in a particular location, eg agriculture - often a very large location, larger than the Bible suggests. Not a real Garden of Eden. Maybe some of these are atheists, maybe not, I don't know. There are others, who are definitely religious, who think that there was a real Garden of Eden as described in the Bible and propose locations for it. There's a big difference. Doug Weller (talk) 18:00, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I get that there's no need to lead this talk astray. It is not about whether the Garden of Eden is a myth or where, as such, it has originated from (by the way, agriculture is not a location). Nor is it about whether the Garden was real or whether authors who suggested its actual locations were religious. This talk is about the Proposed Locations section, which states that “most scholars" consider the Garden mythological, but fails to mention that there are scholars, such as Juris Zarins, James Sauer, David Rohl, Gary Greenberg, and Ephraim Speiser, who proposed the Garden’s physical locations. You chose to remove this edit. Again, neutrality, according to WP:DUE, has been effectively upset.71.191.0.159 (talk) 15:10, 10 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian

Um, agriculture is a thing:"There are scholars who think that the story of the Garden of Eden and other myths originated from things that happened in a particular location, eg agriculture - often a very large location, " I thought that was pretty clear especially as I've added sources for it above. And no, I didn't remove "this edit", I haven't edited the article for a month and that was something entirely different. And Zarins seems pretty clear - he is talking about the origin of the myth:""The whole Garden of Eden story, however, when finally written, could be seen to represent the point of view of the hunter gatherers,". He's saying the myth originated there, not that that was the Garden of Eden. Huge difference. But you aren't listening, as you still think Greenberger is a scholar. If you think he is, go over to Akhenaten and edit that article to show that Moses was Akhenaten's high priest. Doug Weller (talk) 15:47, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Since by "scholars" Wikipedia editors normally mean "academics", as is stated above, please confirm if folklorist and poet Howard Schwartz, mythologist Arthur George, Catholic Church researcher Jean Delumeau, poet and classical novelist Robert Graves, and Jewish folklorist Raphael Patai, are scholars by the same Wikipedia definition. Thank you.71.191.0.159 (talk) 15:19, 10 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian

You're actually getting into another area here. Graves was as you say a poet and novelist, Arthur George is an attorney, Schwartz "a collector and re-teller of Jewish stories and midrash." according to his article, Delumeau is a specialist in Catholic Church history. He's the only academic among the lot. His History of Paradise: The Garden of Eden in Myth and Tradition talks of others who try to locate it, what does he say himself about it? Doug Weller (talk) 16:48, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

No, Sir. Zarins has actually argued that the Garden was situated at the head of the Persian Gulf, at the spot where Tigris and Euphrates run into the Persian Gulf. This is confirmed by Eric Cline in his work “From Eden to Exile: Unraveling Mysteries of the Bible”. This is what Cline wrote: “Juris Zarins, professor of anthropology at Southwest Missouri State University, has suggested that the original location of the Garden of Eden is now underwater, at the head of the Persian Gulf, near Bahrain.”

Myth or no myth, agriculture or metallurgy, religion or atheism—these are not the subjects of this discussion. This discussion is about Wikipedia’s statement about “most scholars” who “consider the Garden to be mythological” and the failure to admit that several other scholars in the true sense of the word have proposed actual locations. Actual—not mythological—geographical locations on Planet Earth.

If we discount Greenberger as a scholar for the sake of compromise, still, most authors whom the article cites as “scholars” who consider “the Garden to be mythological”—except for W.F. Albright—are not scholars in the sense that Wikipedia seems to admit, that is, they are NOT academics. How does this fact make these authors “scholars” and, more so, “most scholars”, only Wikipedia editors would know…71.191.0.159 (talk) 01:08, 20 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian

Fringe writers

I've just removed one. There are of course a number of fringe writers making various claims, eg Florida. Do we want fringe views? Doug Weller talk 10:08, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• The views of scholars, such as Juris Zarins, James Sauer, David Rohl, Gary Greenberg, John Morris, and Ephraim Speiser—all proposing physical locations of the Garden of Eden cannot be considered “fringe” by our all-knowing Wikipedia editors. Yet, no reference to the works of these authors was allowed by them in order to support an important edit testifying to the fact that scholars, who consider the Garden of Eden to be mythological are NOT in the majority, and that there is an equal number of other scholars who propose its physical location. Yet, in the article we read that there is only “some popular speculation” about the Garden’s physical location. In other Wikipedia article, an editor wrote this funny line: “Wikipedia is a place for “reliable academia”. Ugh… Then, following the logic of this editor, scholars Juris Zarins, James Sauer, David Rohl, Gary Greenberg, John Morris, and Ephraim Speiser are not reliable academia. They are just next-door neighbors, working in used car sales business.71.191.0.18 (talk) 18:04, 15 February 2016 (UTC)Davidian

David Rohl is the creator of the New Chronology (Rohl), which is generally regarded as anything but reliable by academia. His views definitely fall under WP:FRINGE. That you include him indicates that you don't know what is fringe or not and rather discredits your argument.

The issue is that the majority of academics don't think there was a physical location, and the figures you list disagree with the majority of that minority that do believe there was a physical location. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:46, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

• David Rohl is a famous Egyptologist, with a degree in Ancient History and Egyptology from the University of London. The fact that he holds a so-called “unconventional” view on one issue: the chronology of ancient Egypt, in no way undermines his overall professional qualifications and expertise as compared to the absolute irrelevance of the individuals, whom Wikipedia editors cite as references to this nonsensical statement found in the article: “The Garden of Eden is considered to be mythological by most scholars.” These “most” "scholars", as we get to know in references [17][18][19][20][21], are folklorist and poet Howard Schwartz; mythologist Arthur George; Catholic church chronicler Jean Delumeau; poet and novelist Robert Graves; and Jewish folklorist Raphael Patai. Since when folklorists, mythologists, poets, chroniclers, and novelists have become “reliable academia” for Wikipedia editors as compared to scholars in Ancient History and Egyptology?71.191.0.18 (talk) 15:00, 16 February 2016 (UTC)Davidian

They are scholars who interpret the story of the Garden of Eden as a myth. Also note that William F. Albright is cited as well. Thank you. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 15:12, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

→* No, Sir. They are not scholars, by definition. Scholar is a specialist in a particular branch of knowledge. Folklorists, mythologists, poets, chroniclers, and novelists cannot be specialists in Biblical Archaeology or Ancient History. Wikipedia policies require that editors cite ALL sources to the debatable issue. Why THE scholars, such as Juris Zarins, James Sauer, David Rohl, John Morris, and Ephraim Speiser are not being cited as references to support suggestions for the Garden's physical locations? Because if you cite them, it will invalidate your statement that "most" scholars consider the Garden to be mythological, right? Yes, only one, William F. Albright, is a scholar. Thank you, too.71.191.0.18 (talk) 15:38, 16 February 2016 (UTC)Davidian

An edit with references to non-fringe scholars is being removed

Previously, in the Proposed Locations section, there for a long time peacefully existed a reference-supported clause suggesting the Armenian Highland or Armenian Plateau as one of the physical locations of the Garden of Eden. All of a sudden, the view of an author cited in the reference displeased some editor and was defined as "fringe" and the clause was removed. Okay... I now attempt to insert the same clause providing three (there are more) reliable references to support this suggested location, namely: 1. Duncan, Joseph E. Milton’s Earthly Paradise: A Historical Study of Eden. 1972. University Of Minnesota Press; Minnesota Archive Editions edition (July 6, 1972), pp. 96, 212. 2. Scafi, Alessandro. Return to the Sources: Paradise in Armenia, in: Mapping Paradise: A History of Heaven on Earth. 2006. London-Chicago: British Library-University of Chicago Press, pp. 317-322, and 3. Willcocks, Sir William, Hormuzd Rassam. Mesopotamian Trade. Noah’s Flood: The Garden of Eden, in: The Geographical Journal 35, No. 4 (April 1910), pp. 459-460. All three are non-fringe authors expressing non-fringe views. Yet, some whimsy Wikipedia editor keeps removing this edit together with the cited references. Please attend.71.191.0.18 (talk) 15:59, 16 February 2016 (UTC)Davidian