Talk:Siobhan

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What is the pronunciation of Siobhan?--Gregalton 23:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC) Yes indeed i was wondering for very long how to pronounce that name. Maybe someone from Ireland would upload audio example of pronounciation of 'Siobhan'. --Doxent 18:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is that it is pronounced Shivon or Shivawn, but I'm not at all certain. Would be useful to have on the article page.--Gregalton 21:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Siobhán is pronounced Shi-vaun.
It's not Irish for Joan [as it says on the wiki page], it's Irish for Hannah. My mother's name is Hannah and she went to school in the 1930s when they only spoke Irish in school and she was always called Siobhán

Lobelia Overhill 13:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification on pronunciation, much appreciated. While I don't know for certain, I think that Hannah is another variation on Joan (which is a variation on John, in the neutral sense that names that are now "gendered" often were used for both males and females). So the text may be accurate and still correspond to your mother's experience.--Gregalton 14:09, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

pronounced [ʃɪˈvɔːn] in English? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.173.119.57 (talk • contribs) 06:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe the first vowel sound is a schwa (/ə/) rather than /ɪ/, but I welcome correction from experts. --Muchness 20:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The Longman Pronunciation Dictionary by J.C. Wells lists both the ə and ɪ pronunciations as correct. Ausir (talk) 19:47, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Why on earth would an Irish name have the stress accent placed on the second syllable? Yes it might be pronounced with the second syllable stressed in ENGLISH. But I am sure this is not its original pronunciation in Irish. One thing I am not so clear: according to many Gaelic instructions, a "bh" bounded by non-front vowel letters should be pronounced "w". Only "bh" bounded by front vowel letters are pronounced as "v". But in real life, many people claiming to know Gaelic tell me there is no difference whether or not it is bounded by front letters or not. It should be invariably "v". How ever to me, ['ʃo-wəːn] makes the most sense, next to ['ʃi-wəːn]. ['ʃo-wəːn] does sound like a modern Gaelic approximation of the English name "Joan".

Stress is regularly shifted to the second (or even third) syllable in Munster Irish if it is long, as in this case, and the first is short. Also, both pre- and intervocalic broad "bh/mh" (flanked by non-front vowels) may be pronounced "v", particularly in Munster. So the most widespread pronunciation is basically that of Munster Irish.

Munster: /ʃə'vɑːn/
Connacht: /'ʃowɑːn/
Ulster: /'ʃuːwan/ Murchadh (talk) 03:15, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Murchadh is right about the stress, though the bh / mh elided sounds vary from dialect to dialect. For instance, In Irish, mh is often "W" while in Scotland, it is usually "V" (as in the name Mary - the vocative form is "Mhaire" pron. roughly "Wire-reh" in Ireland, while in Scotland it is usually pron. "Var-ree."

But the name Siobhan is neither "Joan" nor "Hannah" in fact (though often used for the former) but actually means "Fair (or White) Fairy" - being a native Irish Gaelic name, and NOT introduced by the Normans or anyone else, as I am sure Murchadh knows. See my current revision for the facts. This is one of the greatest problems with Wikipedia and things like it - copying of egregious errata, the blind leading the blind, and no proper vetting or peer review by anyone who actually knows what they are talking about, as in this case. To make matters even worse, I have rectified articles like this only to come back later and see the whole thing turned back by one of the Wiki mavens or just some random user who thinks they know better - or who have an agenda, as in the case of the Christian vid games article. (For the record, I am a Gaelic (Irish and Scottish) speaker, and hold a BA in Celtic Studies. (My M. Sc.is in Ed.) I have lived and studied extensively in Ireland and Scotland.) Mise le meas, Seamus —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seamus45 (talk • contribs) 02:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, your edits are an example of one of the problems of Wikipedia. People 'knowing the truth' but not citing any sources for the 'truth'. Do you realise you are the "random user who thinks they know better - or who have an agenda" you mentioned? It is easy to find reliable sources that give the derivation form the Anglo-Norman name. That's why the article should give that etymology. Please do not remove these sources, or add unsourced information. If you've got sources that give the derivation you think is the 'truth', use them; but do not remove the other information. The more information the better, but unsourced stuff needs to be removed.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 05:58, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

And Lies need to be removed. Its an Irish name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.122.98.90 (talk) 01:42, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

The article makes that clear. It's an Irish form of an Anglo-Norman name.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 05:18, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that the name which is usually found translated as "Fair/White Phantom/Fairy" or something similar is really Modern Irish Fionnabhair < Old Irish Findabair < Proto-Celtic *windā seibarī or something like that. Seamus seems to have confused both in his mind. Lesson: never trust your memory too much, check the sources. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:57, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see now that Seamus actually gave a pseudoetymology for Siobhán, namely siodhe bhan (really (bean-)shídhe bhán), and even claimed that Seán was really sean, namely "(the) old (one)", without accounting for the fada (seems he doesn't care much for such inconvenient details). Nice spinning of the facts, obviously out of Celtophilia and nationalistic fervour. (BA in Celtic Studies? More like Spin-PhD, hehe. A man on a mission indeed, trying to deflect criticism by accusing the opposite side of having an anti-Gaelic agenda.) I'm curious what his Gaelic derivation of Séamus is. ;-) --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

So will this article be changed to reflect both so-called meanings: White Fairy and God is Gracious? I'm thinking of using this name when I have a daughter. Clarification would be appreciated. Beautiful1749 (talk) 16:43, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I think it's a great name, but the 'white fairy' stuff is bogus.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:46, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I was always taught that Sidhe means “fairy” and Bhan means “white" so Siobhan = white fairy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.191.109 (talk) 03:26, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 28 February 2016

Siobhán → Siobhan – Usage of the spelling of this name without an accent is much larger than usage with the accent, in reliable sources. See ngram for evidence: [1]. Furthermore, of the 30 Siobhans listed at Siobhán#People, only two apparently used the á in their Wikipedia article title.  — Amakuru (talk) 19:22, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

• Actually, that's an incomplete list (and also completely beside the point). Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:47, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support Common spelling (although three listed, not two, use it) Randy Kryn 23:29, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support as common English spelling.  ONR  (talk)  00:35, 29 February 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Old Naval Rooftops (talk • contribs)

• Oppose. If the article is to be about the Irish name, then it should be called Siobhán (with the fada). If not, it should be moved to List of people named Siobhan. —  AjaxSmack  03:44, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support if this is about the Irish name on English Wikipedia, it should use the common English language spelling, since English Wikipedia is not Gaelic Wikipedia. -- 70.51.46.39 (talk) 06:34, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose this is an English encyclopedia, English articles about Irish names include full Irish spelling. "Common spelling" above seems to have been read as "lazy spelling in non reliable sources" - which of course outnumber reliable sources.

Patrick Hanks, ‎Kate Hardcastle, ‎Flavia Hodges A Dictionary of First Names 2006 0198610602 "The Irish name Siobhán (Scottish Gaelic Siubhan), related to English Jane, has in recent years been Anglicized as Shevaun and Chevonne; its cognate Síne is found in the Anglicized form Sheena. "

Gerry Coughlan, ‎Martin Hughes Irish Language & Culture 1740595777- 2007 Page 23 "Many Irish words are incorporated into Irish English and their pronunciation may well be baffling to anyone unfamiliar with the idiosyncracies of Irish spelling. The name Siobhán (pronounced shiv·awn) is a well-known illustration."

In ictu oculi (talk) 16:23, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi: yes, this is an Irish name, but it has since become a commonly used given name for many people who speak English as their main language, (perhaps with no knowledge of Gaelic at all), both in Ireland and across the rest of the English speaking world. And in the clear majority of people with that name, as attested by reliable sources, the accent on the a is omitted. It's not inaccurate, or, as you say, "lazy spelling in non reliable sources", because that is the proper given name for those people, in their passports and elsewhere. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 11:53, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

That's not how WP:RS works: please read WP:RS about sources fit for purposes, and also please surf through the entire Wikipedia anthroponymy corpus. If we move this on the basis of technically limited junk sources like passport machines we'd have to remove accents from every article. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:31, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Passport machines are well capable of reading accented letters, but you're missing my point. I wasn't saying that a passport is a reliable source, that was just an example to emphasise my point that the majority of people with this name style it Siobhan, not Siobhán. That's not an inaccuracy or laziness, it's simply how they and others style their own name. Now this article is about a name; a name which is Gaelic in origin, and was presumably originally styled Siobhán in Gaelic, but is now held by thousands of people around the world, and is predominantly styled in English as Siobhan. And reliable sources of all hues predominantly use that form because it's the predominant form out there in the real world.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:12, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support. Siobhan is the most common form, so there is no reason why Siobhán can't be a redirect with the Irish origin listed in the lede of Siobhan. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:27, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support - I never had any idea Siobhan was spelled with the "á".... Anyway none of the people listed at Siobhán#People have it so we should probably ditch it as well, If the Gaelic encyclopedia wants to use it then they can knock themselves out but IMHO we're not the Gaelic encyclopedia so we should use actual English words .... If that makes any sense at all!. –Davey2010^Talk 00:06, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

@Davey2010, "we should use actual English words" is not support by WP:COMMONNAME that supports this one and others (Bréhain for example) as it is used in Engish, is you just check over that list you linked, and linking to Scottish wiki, where the usage would be Siubhan isn't really a point for keeping it or changing it here. Murry1975 (talk) 11:23, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

No I know but as most of the people listed don't really use it it kinda supports my point in that no one really ever uses it, Yeah my bad I for some reason thought it was gaelic so I've struck that part, If most people in the world spell it without the a then so should we. –Davey2010^Talk 16:02, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

LOL, yeah different types of Gaelic bud. It Could be considered WP:ENGVAR, yogurt and yoghurt, but as an Irish language name, I don't know about that. Still undecided meself. Will read more. Thanks User:Davey2010. Murry1975 (talk) 09:10, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

True, Weeeellll it looks like consensus is going towards oppose so you might aswell jump on that bandwagon lol, Anyway thanks Thanks Murry1975 :) –Davey2010^Talk 14:50, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. The ngrams for names like François and Ramón also show the name without the accent mark strongly outdoing the name with it, but the articles on those names do have the accent marks. Most of the people on the list of Siobháns appear to not be from Ireland, so would be a less than perfect indicator of the correct spelling of an Irish name. Egsan Bacon (talk) 02:07, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per AjaxSmack Egsan Bacon and In ictu oculi. This is an English-language, English Wikipedia article about the Irish-language name, Siobhán, not a List of people name Siobhán, Siobhan, Shevaun or some other variant thereof. It would therefore seem obtuse to name the article incorrectly. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:54, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

  Actually it's not about the *Irish-language* name Siobhán. It's simply about the name Siobhan, as held by thousands of non-Irish English speaking people around the world, which is Irish in origin. Now we could have separate articles on the English name and the Irish name, but that would be probably overkill, given that they share a common history and etymology. So given that the accentless name and the name with the accent are sharing a page, it makes sense to go with WP:COMMONNAME, which shows it without an accent.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:21, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose, the article is about the name, which has the accent. Irrelevant of whether people can be bothered to use it or not. --Midas02 (talk) 03:31, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support - Siobhan is more common in English. Genealogizer (talk)