Talk:27 Club

Changing of picture used besides Jim Morrisons place on the 27 Club graph

Jim Morrison himself is reported to have been disdainful of his appearance near the end of his life, this picture being an example of the said late-era Morrison. Not only was he in-part immortalized for his "Dionysion" good looks but to have this picture used in particular, as opposed to the numerous others flooding the internet is unfair to his legacy and career from a journalistic ethic as well as from the perspective of those attempting to discover, admire, or reminisce about the legendary artist. Its also a very minor edit to the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.7.71 (talk) 01:04 (UTC), 20 August 2011

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2015

Please remove Slađa Guduraš from the list of people who belong to the 27 Club. There is no reference for her inclusion as a member of the club. Thank you. Tika88 (talk) 00:01, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

 Not done Using Google Translate on the last paragraph of the cited reference, an article in Bosnian, gives this text: "Some music icons that have left a trail of tragedy have left this world at the age of 27. Among them are Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain, Brian Jones, Amy Winehouse, but the Macedonian singer Tose Proeski." This is clearly a reference to the 27 Club, and specifically mentions its most famous members. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 04:23, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

is a term that refers to

The 27 Club is a term that refers to a number of popular musicians who died at age 27

The Club is not a term, the Club is a group or list. That there's no formal organization (would we know if there were?) is not enough, imho, to break WP:REFERS. —Tamfang (talk) 18:54, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Dimitar Voev

Please add Dimitar Voev to this article. He was born on 21 May 1965 and died on 5 September 1992 of cancer. 14.200.122.144 (talk) 05:36, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Do you have a source that connects him with the "27 Club"? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 10:14, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

[1] - Воев е българският представител в митологизирания „Клуб 27“ (Voev is the Bulgarian representative of the mythologised "27 Club") 14.200.122.144 (talk) 08:10, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, added. Thanks. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:56, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Valentin Elizalde

PLEASE !! He can´t be here, please, please pretty please, its a Banda Singer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.147.129.48 (talk) 03:52, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Do you have a source that connects him with the "27 Club"? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 10:35, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

He's already in the article. I believe the IP editor is suggesting -- whether seriously or not, I'm not sure -- that he be removed. But since he's a popular musician with a source associating him with the 27 Club, he should stay on the list. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 12:14, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Ah, my mistake. Just another variation on the "they're not good enough to be in the club, in my opinion" argument. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:40, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Katy Perry - By the Grace of God

I posted Katy Perry's song "By the Grace of God" as an example of a song that references the 27 club, although in a subtle way (it does not specifically mention the club, but she does mention that she was 27 at the time). It was deleted, since it needed a source. Do you want a source for the lyrics? Or a source that Katy Perry considered suicide at age 27? Mitsguy2001 (talk) 17:15, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

We need a source that says the lyrics are a reference to "27 Club". Whether Perry considered suicide, and what the lyrics say exactly is of secondary importance. Thanks. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 19:46, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Stuart Baggs

A short time ago Stuart Baggs was added to the list. Should he be left in, or taken out? The cited reference has a quote referring to the 27 Club. But, Mr. Bagg was not a musician, he was an entrepreneur who had appeared on television shows such as The Apprentice. So he doesn't seem to fit the definition, quote notwithstanding. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:27, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

I've removed it. It's a judgement call that I'm happy to discuss. But basically it comes down to him not being a musician, as per the definition in the lead, and the source cited only mentions the club in a quote by a third party. So the source itself doesn't place him in the 27 club. Just some minor celeb in a tweet. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 14:56, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. Thanks. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:28, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Notability

This article is supposed to be regarding a list of popular musicians who died at 27 years of age. Some years ago it was exactly that. It has now turned into a list of nobodies who died at 27 years of age. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.67.173 (talk) 09:30, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

• WP:SOFIXIT UW Dawgs (talk) 18:15, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

This has been discussed, at great length, several times before - see the archives. The last time, the consensus was to keep these "nobodies who died at 27 years of age" as you describe them.
Please see Talk:27 Club/Archive 5#Who should be listed + Talk:27 Club/Archive 5#Who should be included for the last two discussions.
I'd happily join in another discussion, but editors views on this seem remarkably entrenched. - Arjayay (talk) 18:35, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 August 2015

Under references in music, another may be added from "Colors" by Halsey, where there is a lyric saying "I hope you make it to the day you're 28 years old"

82.38.107.97 (talk) 13:01, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —Skyllfully ^(talk | _contribs) 06:05, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Slađa Guduraš

Who is she to be in this list??? OK then, lets add all of the people who died at 27... Cmon — Preceding unsigned comment added by Infibit (talk • contribs) 21:34, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Like it says in the list, she's a pop singer who died at the age of 27. For inclusion in the list there must also be a reference to a source saying that the musician is a member of the 27 Club, or something similar. Why do you ask, is there a problem with including Ms. Guduraš? — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:46, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Where is Shannon Hoon???

Shannon Hoon has to be one of the bigger names associated to the so called "27 Club". He was the lead singer of Blind Melon who died at the age of 27 on October 21, 1994 from an apparent overdose of cocaine. I do not know how to edit articles, so could somebody please be so kind as to confirm my facts and insert his name onto this list. Some may consider this list as a sort of morbid curiosity, however I think it should be considered in a more rememberance-like sense, and Shannon Hoon was an outstanding talent who deserves no less than to be remembered. Thank you. NON MVTATA (talk) 19:02, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

References

He was 28 when he died. Our article on him did briefly say 27, but it was vandalism which has since been reverted. AllMusic confirms he was 28. Buttons to Push Buttons (talk | contribs) 06:56, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

The article also said he died in 1994 before it was corrected. Nice to see there are people with nothing better to do than cause mayhem. Thanks for the correction. NON MVTATA (talk) 22:51, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 December 2015

Please add Zenon de Fleur (born Zenon Hierowski) to this list. Born September 9, 1951. Died March 17, 1979 of a heart attack due to complications suffered in a car accident. Guitarist for the Count Bishops.

Source used: 27: A History of the 27 Club "The Long List" https://books.google.com/books?id=NWT9CAAAQBAJ&pg=PA304&lpg=PA304&dq=zenon+de+fleur+27+club&source=bl&ots=rJXweQAPAr&sig=jDrmjwDElzaPy6e3ozc8wLhXhzI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj77IikyurJAhXCJx4KHXFeBR4Q6AEIJjAD#v=onepage&q=zenon%20de%20fleur%2027%20club&f=false

This source mentions other musicians not on this entry. You may be interested in adding them as well. They are also included in the above source. Last names are: Khumalo, Leonard, Morris, Niec, Rudetsky, Shari and Smith.

162.119.128.142 (talk) 13:40, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Not done; the guitarist does not have a Wikipedia article, and is outside the article's scope of " popular musicians who died at age 27, often as a result of drug and alcohol abuse, or violent means such as homicide or suicide". — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 17:49, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Gee, I dunno. By prior consensus, someone doesn't have to have their own Wikipedia article to be included in the list, they just have to be a popular musician who is mentioned by one or more reliable sources as a member of the 27 Club. Nor do they have to have died by misadventure, natural causes are okay too. This has been discussed more than once, but I think the main discussion is at Talk:27 Club/Archive 4#RfC: Should there be two lists of musicians or one, and who should be included?. So, maybe Zenon de Fleur should be included. P.S. The Count Bishops do have a Wikipedia article. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:03, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

 Done Accordingly, I have added Mr. De Fleur to the table, with appropriate references of course. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:06, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

In references in music...

I would like to request the song "27" by Vanlis be added. Natasha Negovanlis, the co-writer and singer, makes multiple references to the 27 Club and was the inspiration for writing the song, except for mentioning Freddie Mercury. In was in a interview with After Ellen host that she states it is a reference to the 27 Club. 16mjs915 (talk) 08:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)Sylar

References

More references in music

I would like to suggest some additions to the "References in Music" section of this page.

• The song "Colors," by Halsey, contains the lines "You're only happy when your sorry head is filled with dope, I hope you make it to the day you're 28 years old," which seem to be a reference to the 27 Club and wishing that the subject would not find themselves joining it.
• The song "Hooray for Hollywood," by Neon Trees, includes a list of names of celebrities who died young, most from drug overdoses. Several of the names in this list reference members of the 27 Club, including Amy (Winehouse), Janis (Joplin), Jimi (Hendrix), and the Lizard King (Jim Morrison). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lyrael58 (talk • contribs) 07:13, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 January 2016

I would like to edit this page because the cause of death for Kurt Cobain is incorrect. He did not commit suicide, his wife Courtney Love hired someone to kill him. All of this is explained in detail in the "Soaked in Bleach" documentary on Netflix. I encourage you to change his cause of death to the correct thing. It would be greatly appreciated.

Hannahgibby5 (talk) 14:14, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

 Not done That's a fringe theory -- a hypothesis that is not widely accepted, and lacks actual evidence -- and potentially defames a living person. Other editors are welcome to add their opinions. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 14:24, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Jim Morrison's Cause of Death

Heart attack isn't correct. Nobody ever did an autopsy so it could've been anything from drug OD to drowning — Preceding unsigned comment added by New-americana02 (talk • contribs) 02:09, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Looking around on the internet, it sounds like a doctor certified Jim Morrison's cause of death as heart failure (not heart attack), but an autopsy wasn't performed. It also sounds like a lot of people think that he died of a heroin overdose, but there's not any direct evidence of that. I think the best approach would be to say something like "certified as heart failure, but no autopsy was performed", and leave it at that, preferably with a better reference than the one that's there now. What does anyone else think? — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:41, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Generally speaking it is not a good idea to include mentions of things that didn't happen, because it can be read as a suggestion that they should have happened. Also, lots of things didn't happen, why mention just this one thing unless it is to express an opinion about events? It is possible to mention things that didn't happen, if they are notable and sources can be found discussing what didn't happen. But, really, this article is not the place for discussing this tangential topic. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 18:25, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Though it took many years to come out (statute of limitations, anyone?) there is quite a bit of testimony now that it was an accidental heroin overdose. Read the sources on the death section of the Morrison article. The reason there was no autopsy (the usual procedure when a young person dies) was because the coroner and medical examiner were bribed. Again, see the sourcing. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 21:03, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

@CorbieVreccan: That sounds reasonable to me. Can you provide links here in this talk section, to what you think would be the best references to use for that, here on this article? The top two or three should do it, I think. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:16, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

P.S. If you're feeling ambitious, I'd say go ahead and update the table entry in the article, as long as you include a few good references. Perhaps it should say something like, "Heart failure listed as official cause of death, but later sources suggest accidental heroin overdose." — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:28, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

My concern about this would be that what should be a concise table column will change from "Official cause of death" to "Official cause of death, plus any other theories raised by some people afterwards". And there a number of deaths in the list that have plenty of them. But this article shouldn't be drawn into that territory, the place for notable theories is the personal article where they can get appropriate coverage and due weight. That's the very reason why the column was deliberately titled Official cause of death. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:48, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

That's a good point. So according to that, the table should be left as it is, right? I guess that makes sense. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:32, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2016

Under the references in music section, I think the following reference should be added.

From the song Colors, by artist Halsey she says: "I hope you make it to the day you’re 28 years old". She is specifically talking about Matty Healy, from the band 'The 1975's". He is a drug user and she is saying she hopes he makes it past the 27 club. For confirmation see http://genius.com/5089587

AcBush08 (talk) 08:11, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Your cite doesn't mention the article's topic. There is nothing to say that the lyric is a reference to "27 Club". --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 15:45, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2016

Tomas Lowe of the band Viola Beach died in a Road Accident at the age of 27 years and 261 days. His birthday was the 12/05/1988.

Here is an article to support: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/14/five-british-men-die-in-car-crash-in-stockholm-sweden

Could this please be added?

Kind regards. Kenster364 (talk) 13:52, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Your cite doesn't mention the article's topic, or make any reference to his age. This isn't a list of musicians who died aged 27, it is about those who have been attributed (by reliable sources) membership of "27 Club". --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 15:45, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Tomas Lowe of the band Viola Beach was 27, and one can find references for that: [2] [3] [4]. But as Escape Orbit said, what we need is a reference referring to him as a member of the 27 Club. This is by a prior consensus of editors. See the archived talk pages, but the main discussion is at Talk:27 Club/Archive 4#RfC: Should there be two lists of musicians or one, and who should be included?. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 16:30, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Here is an article referencing his age and the "27 club"

http://miamistudent.net/?p=17015223

Kind regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kenster364 (talk • contribs) 17:39, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

@Kenster364:  Done. Thanks for the reference. ("... bassist Tomas Lowe joins Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain and an eerie amount of other musicians in the "27 Club", the unofficial name for the phenomenon that sees many famous musicians never make it past 27 years old.") — Mudwater ^(Talk) 17:56, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Dimitar Voev again

@Ohnoitsjamie: You have removed Dimitar Voev from the article twice today, here and here, on the basis that he is not notable. There have been several discussions about the criteria for being included in the table of 27 Club "members" in this article, of which the most comprehensive is at Talk:27 Club/Archive 4#RfC: Should there be two lists of musicians or one, and who should be included?. The consensus of that discussion is that the musician does not have to be notable to be included. But they do have to be (1) a popular musician who died at the age of 27 and (2) be mentioned in relation to the 27 Club (or a similar name like "the Forever 27 Club") by a secondary source. And as far as notability goes, there's also WP:NNC, which says that Wikipedia notability guidelines do not apply to content within an article, they apply to whether or not the subject should have its own article. So, I'm going to put Mr. Voev back in the article again. Feel free to discuss this further here, and other editors are also encouraged to join in the fun. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:39, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Edit Request 03/05/2016

Ed Sheeran references the club in his song 'The Man' from the 2014 album 'X' upon saying "and I'll be writing my will before I'm 27, I'll die from the thrill, go down in history as just a waste of talent". Emilyrhiannon (talk) 23:34, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Where does the lyric mentions a 'club' or similar? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:01, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Thomas Fekete

Unfortunately, two days ago, Thomas Fekete (of Surfer Blood) died of complications with cancer. Shouldn't you add him?