Talk:George W. Bush

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Vague/unsupported statements

I'm doing a run-through of the article for any statements that look like they need some citation. I've decided that I'll note them here first rather than simply deleting them so that the person(s) who put them in the article have a chance to provide sources for them. (Also a few other statements I have issues with.)

• "Bush was an entrepreneur in the oil industry in Texas..." (Intro) - It's common knowledge by now that he was involved in the oil industry in some way, but the problem here is with the term "entrepreneur." It has very positive connotations in American society, so we should hesitate to apply it to him without some verification that it's valid. Personally, I would only use the term if the person it referred to innovated a new, successful business, which is definitely not the case here.
• "George W. Bush is the first president to have run a marathon. Before running for governor of Texas he completed the 1993 Houston Marathon in 3:44:52 for a pace of about 8:36/mile. He had been running since he was 26 and, before taking office, ran 15 to 30 miles a week." (Early Life) - Need a source for this

See http://www.runnersworld.com/footnotes/gwbush/racingrecord.html for Runners World listing of his races. See also "20 Questions for President George W. Bush: A Running Conversation by Bob Wischnia & Paul Carrozza" at http://www.runnersworld.com/footnotes/gwbush/20questions.html which has the following Q and A with Bush:

Q "I know you ran a marathon in Houston in 1993. What are your recollections from that?

A"I was distraught after my dad was defeated in 1992 so I decided I was going to set a little project for myself. I wanted to run the White Rock Marathon in Dallas so I began training intensely for it. I gave myself a month to train for it and pushed myself incredibly hard as this after-election therapy. But I got sick and it was really a foolish attempt on my part.

Q"It takes a lot longer than a month to get ready for a marathon."

A"Dr. Ken Cooper of the Cooper Clinic told me the same thing. So I set my sights on Houston which gave me some more time to train. I ran it in 3:44. I ran the first mile in 8 _ minutes and the last mile in 8 _ minutes. It was one of the great experiences of my life."Edison 18:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you; that citation has been added. ---DrLeebot 20:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• "Although Bush was criticized for violating the constitutional separation of church and state ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."), his initiative was popular with most people across the state, especially religious and social conservatives." (Governor of Texas) - Fixed up some POV issues in this, but both parts of the statement will still need sourcing. I'm sure there's something out there for the first part, just have to find it. Not so sure about the second part.
• "As one of the most popular governors in the nation..." (2000 Presidential election) - Unless we can source this, it's blatantly POV.
• "While stressing his successful record as governor of Texas, Bush's campaign attacked the Democratic nominee, incumbent Vice President Al Gore, over gun control and taxation. Bush criticized the Kyoto Protocol, championed by Gore, citing the decline of the industries in the midwestern states, such as West Virginia, and resulting economic hardships." (and similar staments) (2000 Presidential election) - Is it NPOV to talk about what his campaign claims were without mentioning his opponents' claims were?
• "On December 9, in the Bush v. Gore case, the U.S. Supreme Court stopped the statewide hand recount. The machine recount showed that Bush had won the Florida vote, giving him 271 electoral votes to Gore's 266; Bush carried 30 of the 50 states." (2000 Presidential election) We should mention the claims or critics here that the court was overstepping its power in doing this. Just need a good source for it.

Isn't that covered in the 2000 Controversy sections? Dubc0724 15:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It's covered in the controversy section of the main article on the election, yes, but it seems to me that this excerpt does an exceedingly poor job at showing just how much controversy there was. All it really says in this regard is, "The vote count, which favored Bush in preliminary tallies, was contested over allegations of irregularities in the voting and tabulation processes." Compare this to the discussion of Hayes' election in his article, where the controversy is discussed in depth. ---DrLeebot 20:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's an entire article for 2000, so one would assume it's covered. (And no, I didn't "need" that many indents - I was simply trying to make sure my edit stood out from your comments, rather than making it appear as if I was editing your comments. Didn't realize it was such a big deal.) Dubc0724 20:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

There's also an entire article on the 1876 election, and yet the controversy is still discussed in Hayes' article. (And on the indenting, a single indent more that the previous is preferred, as any more makes the comments run into the side of the page quite quickly. An alternative style is for each new person to use one more indent than the last, and for each to keep their own number of indents in each category. I tend not to do this, as it seems to break up the flow of conversation.) ---DrLeebot 21:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• "President George W. Bush was regarded by his political opponents and many in the media as lacking a popular mandate, having lost the popular vote." (First term) - Needs source
• "Bush's domestic agenda carried forward themes of increased responsibility for performance from his days as Texas governor, and he worked hard to lobby the adoption of the No Child Left Behind Act, with Democratic Senator Ted Kennedy as chief sponsor. The legislation aims to close the achievement gap, measures student performance, provides options to parents with students in low-performing schools, and targets more federal funding to low-income schools." (First term) - Needs cite, plus we should mention the extreme criticism of NCLB (basically, that it absolutely fails to accomplish its stated goals).
• "Bush is a supporter of stem cell research..." (First term) - Needs a cite if we're going to keep it saying that he supports the research. Some critics have claimed that his actions in banning research from stem-cells taken from embryos are (or will be) almost completely curbing research ability.

Don't have time to look any more at the moment; I'll finish this off a bit later. ---DrLeebot 14:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, continuing now:

• "Arguably, cuts were distributed disproportionately to higher income taxpayers through a decrease in marginal rates, but the change in marginal rates was greater for those of lower income, resulting in an income tax structure that was more progressive overall." (First Term) - Will definitely need a good cite if you want to leave it saying this made the tax more progressive. The whole thing the cut did was actually quite complicated, and this was a trick to make it look like it was more progressive. In the end, people at the low end ended up paying just as much (or close to) as before, but it was in different types of taxes plus they lost a lot of benefits.
• "Bush's imposition of a tariff on imported steel and on Canadian softwood lumber was controversial in light of his advocacy of free market policies in other areas; this attracted criticism both from his fellow conservatives and from nations affected. The steel tariff was later rescinded under pressure from the World Trade Organization. A negotiated settlement to the softwood lumber dispute was reached in April 2006, and the historic seven-year deal was finalized on July 1, 2006." (First term) - Probably true, but still needs a cite.
• "Public perceptions of Bush were reputedly of lacking interest in foreign affairs. However, the Bush Administration implemented major changes in U.S. foreign policy by withdrawing its participation in the 1998 Kyoto Protocol (although in 1998 the Senate vote to participate in the treaty was 0 for and 95 against) and the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty with Russia, in order to pursue national missile defense." (First term) - Blatantly POV, but I can't think of a good way to rework it right now that retains the information.

Okay, I'm not done going through this, but I think that's enough for us to work on for the time being. ---DrLeebot 20:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Good work, DrLeebot. Articles can only become better when attention to detail is paid as it pertains to NPOV. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

AIDS

Should the article mention Bush's call to renew the Ryan White Act, as he did in his 2005 2005 State of the Union address: [1] What about public or political opinion on AIDS? Perhaps the mention would be under domestic agenda and the opinion under criticism and public perception? Bill Clinton has supported Bush on AIDS, for one: [2] Bush's stance on AIDS separates him from Ronald Reagan in that Bush embraces the compassionate conservative mantle, while for Reagan I support it was simply patriotic conservatism. Both have been criticized for economically neglecting the downtrodden (well, except fiscal conservatives have attacked Bush for his massive [[public works spending following Hurricane Katrina, but perhaps there is a bridge on addressing social issues. Minutiaman 21:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

If the above were to be included, it would also then be fair to include the criticisms of Bush's AIDS policies, e.g, funding abstinence-only programs that lack the scientific acceptance of other prevention strategies; funding religious groups through PEPFAR; purchasing only brand name pharmaceuticals for its treatment programs, instead of cheaper generic drugs. These are pretty standard and well-publicized and documented critiques of the policy, more than just griping from political opponents. In a represenationally accurate rendering of a particular policy, they seem to deserve inclusion. --Thes entinel 23:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Hurricane Katrina disaster relief acts

Should any of the acts Bush signed into law in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina be included in the major legislation signed section? These include the Flexibility for Displaced Workers Act, Katrina Emergency Tax Relief Act of 2005, [3] QI, TMA, and Abstinence Programs Extension and Hurricane Katrina Unemployment Relief Act of 2005[4], Second Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act to Meet Immediate Needs Arising From the Consequences of Hurricane Katrina, 2005 [5], Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act to Meet Immediate Needs Arising From the Consequences of Hurricane Katrina, 2005 [6], and the Gulf Opportunity Zone Act of 2005 [7]. Minutiaman 22:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Websites Critical Of Bush

I'm wondering why most other polticans who have articles about them in Wikipedia have links to websites critical of them and this article does not. Is it simply because they are being removed or that no one has found a noteable source of criticism on Bush? Davidpdx 06:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the articles of other recent presidents, I'm not seeing any links to critical websites. This does still raise the question of whether we should have critical sites here. And if we do, should we balance it out with positive sites? Or is it better to keep it to strictly neutral sites? ---DrLeebot 12:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[HUMOR}Interesting dilemma. One person sees negative websites in the other politicians entries and thinks they should be here, too. But, another person looks and does not see this at all. My philosophy teacher was right - reality is malleable.[/HUMOR] ;-) Xaa 13:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

(Yes, I know it was intended to be humorous, but I'll still respond.) I think the difference is that Davidpdx is talking about politicians in general, while I'm looking at a more select group of politicians: American presidents. There probably are many politicians whose articles link to critical sites, like, say, Fidel Castro (and what do you know, it does?).

But that fact does raise an NPOV concern. We link to sites critical of the Cuban president, but not the American president (who is also controversial). Since there are sites who use Verifiable sources and are critical of Bush (and other past presidents), we have an obligation to link to them in order to comply with WP:NPOV. ---DrLeebot 14:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the article links its pro-, neutral, and anti-Bush sources, and also its page to books and films about him, categorized by their slant.[8] Minutiaman 17:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC) (I am terrible at remembering the tildes)

Let me clarify that although the sub-article categorizes the books and films, the main article does not categorize its sources by their leanings. But with sources on everything from Bush being a war criminal to impartial statistics, there is diversity and the names tend to reveal where they come from, so to speak. An added list of categorized Bush Web sites should be added to the books and films sub-article, in which case the name should be lengthened to reflect the expansion. Minutiaman 17:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC) (apparently I got signed out - does Wikipedia do this to anyone else?)

I'm going to chime back in here. My intention was to start a conversation about this and hope someone will come up with some sites critical of Bush. While there are some critisms of Bush, in the external links section there are none. Certainly that's doesn't mean these sites don't exsist, because they do. Linking books and films that are critical of Bush is not the same. They are a diffrent kind of published work.

The problem is finding a creditable site (preferably not a blog) that is represenative of some of the major criticisms of Bush. A blog would be ok as long it is not origonal research. I think it should be something that is well sourced though. As I said at the start of this message I don't intend on posting anything, but I think it's worth mentioning that the article should be more balanced. Davidpdx 00:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Is bush an idiot?

Its a valid question, according to this. How come this is not expresed in the article? Or did i just miss it? --Striver 18:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Not the best source, and asking the mental capacity of a living person isn't encyclopedic...regardless of your own personal theories. Hell, I could write on my blog that Bush is the greatest preisdent, but it isn't a valid source, as it is an opinion. Squiggyfm 19:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

NO, it is not an opinion. It is a fact of common consensus (much like the point Colbert was making). Hitler was a 'megalomaniac'; to not state it would not reflect true reality, rather it would distort it. I can cite PLENTY of evidence to PROVE this allegation. As in medical science, everything is an OPINION, an idea, backed up with evidence. This situation is no different. Everything said is backed up. A DOB is backed up by his birth certificate. Similarly, I categorise and compile facts to conclusively prove, beyond any reasonable doubt, that this man is the greatest idiot that walked the face of the world. The facts speak for themselves.

I really have to say, when attempting to point out that someone else is an idiot, proper grammar and spellchecking go a long way. On the other hand, the irony is always good for a laugh. ---DrLeebot 19:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Was that to me, or someone else? Squiggyfm 20:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I think he was referring to the web-page referenced by Striver, the original poster. Xaa 00:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

To Striver: It depends on how you define "idiot." If you are defining "idiot" in the archaic, non-PC medical sense (which is "a person of profound mental retardation having a mental age below three years and generally being unable to learn connected speech or guard against common dangers"), then no, obviously he is not an idiot. He's a college graduate, successful businessman, yadda yadda. If you define "idiot" as "stupid or foolish person", then this becomes opinion, and POV. And we could argue various opinions until the universe comes to an end. Either way, the question of Bush's intelligence should not be placed into an encyclopedia article until he decides to submit to a standard battery of mental testing. Which, of course, he's not going to do. Xaa 00:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the funniest thing I've read in a LONG time. College graduate and successful businessman? First, if Bush were not a legacy, he NEVER would have been accepted on merit. By his own admission, he was a subpar student more intent on secret societies than on studying. Furthermore, as a businessman, he is an abject failure. Every company he has touched has turned to crapola (even the USA, which is circling the drain as we speak). Sure, this is only my POV, but I just had to laugh. I also had to laugh at "...unable to learn connected speech." Have you SEEN Bush without a teleprompter? There is verb-subject disagreement, mispronunciation, making up words to fill the gaps, and other grammatical faux pas that show anyone with a REAL education that the man is at best a bumpkin (if we give him the benefit of the doubt on the topic of idiot).

TheKurgan 10:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

As a linguistics major in college, I got an opportunity to experience what "connected speech" really is. If people don't acquire connected speech, they speak only in single words or make meaningless, absolutely incomprehensible utterances, like "Applesauce buy store". Bush just makes speech errors here and there, like everyone does. Now please stop treating this talk page like a discussion forum. Bush's intelligence is not an appropriate topic for this article. Claims like "Bush is an idiot" are nothing but personal opinion. End of discussion. szyslak (t, c, e) 17:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

As a linguistics major, I'm sure you also realize that there are languages where "applesauce buy store" is an acceptable construction (Cyrillic languages without the verb "to be" come to mind). I also find your assertion that Bush's intelligence is not an appropriate topic for the article to be incorrect. In fact, one might argue his lack of said intelligence is a big reason we're in such a lousy predicament as a country. Of course, in order to include discussions of Bush's intelligence as sourced footnotes, we'd have to secure copies of his school and business records (most of which have been sealed by Gubenatorial order in Texas). The point is, the topic is relevant, despite your proclamation to the contrary. One last point: Bush doesn't simply make "speech errors here and there." My God, there are entire BOOKS written about the subject of his poor public speaking ability ("Bushisms" comes to mind)

TheKurgan 03:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC) (corrected spelling error 22 August 2006)

I was not suggestign that the page states or debates that wether bush is an idiot, rather, that the article should mention the notable phenomena of asking or claiming he is an idiot. I provided the video as a mainstream and serious source of that phenomena. --Striver 19:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Striver. Scarborough, a former Republican Congressman for God's sake, seriously advances, and discusses with his guests, the thesis that Bush is extraordinarily intellectually incurious and lacking in intellectual depth for someone who is President of the United States. That discussion is an important subject worthy of mention in Wikipedia. And it's not just a matter of POV: the guy's speeches (see the "Bushisms" article for examples) show that he at a minimum has great difficulty expressing himself, and lead one to wonder whether he is in fact just not a bright person. Whatever one thinks of Bill Clinton (I'd take him over Bush in a nanosecond, myself), no one could seriously contend that he was stupid. That Bush is stupid is a very serious contention. Scarborough and his two guests (one of whom, John Fund, is a dyed-in-the-wool right-winger) all agreed in significant part: even Fund admitted that Bush has great difficulties expressing himself coherently, and that his intellectual curiosity is less than one would like. There is no legitimate reason not to include this. Krakatoa 04:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

"Intellectual curiosity" must be a talking point. I hear that term all the time. It's like "gravitas". "Bush is an idiot" is still nothing more than an opinion. Dubc0724 12:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This is slightly off topic, but funny nonetheless. Al Franken once said the following about Rush in "Big Fat Idiot." It applies equally to Bush...

I call it being a f***** moron.

All of or PC arguments boil down to this one statement concerning our esteemed prez. Slice it any way you like, you still come up with "Bush is an idiot." POV or not, sealed school records or not, everyone with any sense at all knows it. Unfortunately, we cannot present it in the article because he sealed all the records that could prove he's stupid (probably at Daddy's urging since he is obviously not smart enough to include it).

TheKurgan 21:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=bush&mode=related&v=pw4Bhmm22xo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqLvBUSJucg

Nice rant. Find yourself a blog, moonbat.

So calling someone a name and not signing your comment make you superior? This entire section is really not worthy of even being on this talk page. The correct solution is to (civilly) request that the digression cease, not lower oneself to the same level. Kasreyn 01:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe you think this should seriously be considered as an encyclopedia topic. This ignoring the fact that, yes, as much as you don't like to think so, many people in this country do not think Bush is an idiot. You don't belong here if you think your opinions (or anyone else's) are suitable encyclopedia content. Dpaanlka 05:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Joe Scarborough has featured the "Is Bush an Idiot?" issue on his program. Scarborough never actually declared the POTUS to be an idiot, but conceded that it's something that has been pondered by those on both the right and the left. It appears that the failures of his policies from Iraq to Social Security combined with the lack of professionalism in his demeanor, as evidenced by his behavior at the G8 summit and his reported fondness for flatulence humor, have contributed greatly to widespread doubt concerning the competence of this leader.Smiloid 22:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

In many countries of the world, Bush is perceived and satirised as someone of low intelligence, prone to mangling sentences and, above all, being ignorant of the geography and politics of the world outside America. This perception is heightened by the use of film clips such as one, shown quite often, in which he was unable to name the leaders of various countries. This perception of him and portrayal of him is not related in any obvious way to American party politics. It is surprising that there is no hint of this perception of him in an encyclopedic article. Bluewave 12:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Aren't most politicians seen as somewhat dumb in a half-serious kind of way? 71.31.154.56 20:45, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The reason why Bush is seen by an idiot or stupid by those who dislike him is due to his controversial political decisions or actions (the war on Iraq, the video of Bush clowing around before an important speech). Whether you see Bush as an idiot or not depends on what you think of his decisions (For the record, I think he is an idiot but I'm not the president, am I?). James Cracknell 18:45 27 August 2006

Well, IMO Bush is very much an idiot, mediocre at best. Idiot is a vague term, but in his case he fits the psychological, social, and physical aspects of the word idiot (let's not bring up the bicycle incident!). I find that some of the aforementioned statements to be fairly entertaining. In any event, Dubya just seems to come off as an ignorant person, that's all. Now if there were credible facts that proved that he is in fact an idiot, we may be able to add it to the article... Wikichange 21:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It's a far cry from "ignorant" to "idiot". Again, the collective opinion of Wikipedia "experts" has no bearing on reality. Dubc0724 21:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe that if you could provide an ample amount of sources, this comment might possibly be worthy of being put up under a 'contraversy' subsection, telling how many people are of this view. You could never come out and just say that Bush is an idiot, but it would be relavant to say that Bush has been considered an idiot by many significant people. Stop Me Now! 01:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Stem Cell Issue

In the domestic policies section, it is mentioned that using existing stem cell lines is "obviating the need to destroy embryos." This wording should be changed, because it implies something that is false. Existing stem cells lines are outdated and are very limited in their potential for research. Thus, they only "obviate" the need to destroy embryos in a legal sense. In practical science, new stem cells are created and destroyed without federal support because new cells are needed for sufficient progress to be made. 70.105.49.78 01:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)Ian Burnet, 8/16/0670.105.49.78 01:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• I don't think either of use are qualified to make that call, inserting your own POV is called origional research, it is frowned up[on here, until then, let's just leave it to the experts. And the experts in this case, would rather not destroy embryos for no reason.--RCT 01:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Sitcom

There was a sitcom featuring and making fun of Bush.Does anyone know what's it's name? New Babylon

That's My Bush! ---DrLeebot 13:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Israel Palestine

"Bush emphasized a "hands-off" approach to the conflict between Israel and Palestine in wake of rising violence and the alleged failure of the Clinton Administration's efforts to negotiate. Bush specifically disowned Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat for his support of the violence and militant groups, but following urgings from European leaders, he became the first American President to embrace a two-state solution envisaging"

I read this as a European, but I finThe implcation of 'Hands off' is that Bush was neutral rather than being backing the Israelis. Surely this should be altered.

Introduction

The introduction is completely too long...much of the information is unreferenced and needs to be repositioned in other sections.--MONGO 08:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

• Agreed, this section could use some work--RCT 01:57, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The entire article needs work. Between the article and this talk page, I have over 1,000 edits and now, after coming back to see it having not edited much here for some time, I see that the entire article is simply too long and much needs to be spun off into daughter articles.--MONGO 10:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

• Please be careful not to selectively remove only material you disagree with in your quest to correct the problem of the intro being "too long." Thanks. Edison 15:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Google Phenomenon

An interesting fact about Google search is that if one types "failure" in the search bar, and then clicks the "I'm Feeling Lucky" button, then a page contaning an autobiography of George W Bush appears — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.183.165.228 (talk • contribs)

See Google bomb. There's nothing notable about what you describe. — Impi 14:14, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Weasel Words

I tried to change the last section about experts allegations of war crimes so that it reads more as a point of view held by some people. If no one objects, I think it should be okay to remove the weasel words warning, as now I don't think the section reads as an opinion. If there are no objections, I will remove the warning in a day or two, in order to give people time to post against this action. If there is any contraversy, I will not remove the label, of course. Stop Me Now! 16:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• No objections here. Sounds like a good change to me. AuburnPilot 17:14, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Might be good to re-word it to specifically address who is alleging the war crimes, as the "some experts" is what prompted the original weasel tag. ThanksDubc0724 01:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to do that and then remove the weasel words warnings. If anyone disagrees, put it back up and talk about it here. I'm not trying to cause contraversy over this.Stop Me Now! 01:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Deletion of 'Inappropriate Statements'

At 15:28, August 28, 2006 Kalsermar deleted two sections for being 'inappropriate' ... what is inappropriate about mentioning Bush's age when he received a DUI? When a man is 30 years old he cannot be called youthful by himself or anybody else. I think it is entirely appropriate to point out this behavior by an adult; it is even a part of the public records in the state where the incident took place. Indiscretions by actual youthful offenders is often sealed from public access; the state doesn't agree with Bush about his status at the time of this incident.--Duke 53 User_talk:Duke53 02:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The facts are stated, there's nothing encyclopaedic about the mention of whether it can or cannot be regarded as whatever. Reader can judge themselves.--Kalsermar 15:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)