Talk:Operation Vistula

200 000?

140 000 ?Xx236 (talk) 07:12, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Sources? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:40, 24 March 2015 (UTC) http://www.naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news,29004,akcja-wisla---kontrowersje-trwaja-do-dzis.html 140 575.Xx236 (talk) 08:20, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

removed from lede

During Operation Vistula conditions of the United Nations Charter of June 26, 1945 on the right of self-determination and international laws have been respected. The deported farmers received financial help from the Polish government, and took over homes and farms left behind by the Germans, in most cases improving their living conditions due to increased size of newly acquired properties, brick buildings, and running water.

I don't think this is representative of general historians' opinions to be in the lede. While in some cases this was true, many of the deported did not wish to leave, they did not get compensation and obviously violence had to be used to move'em (that's why this was a military operation).Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

• I have no reason to doubt the value of assessment by Dr. Dr Łukasz Kamiński from central office of IPN supported by historical data in the article “Wygnańcy” published by IPN in 2008. I'm also aware of the massive criticism of the operation from the Ukrainian side, but these are the facts, and need to be included in our article from the neutral point of view. I hope you understand, thanks. Poeticbent talk 17:48, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Państwo polskie udzieliło także pomocy finansowej i rzeczowej przesiedlonym Ukraińcom. Uzyskali oni kredyty i zapomogi, kartki żywnościowe, żywność i zboże. Remontom poddano wiele zdewastowanych zabudowań, np. w województwie olsztyńskim wyremontowano 2427 budynków, a w szczecińskim – 717. Potrzeby były oczywiście dużo większe (np. w województwie olsztyńskim remontu wymagało około 10 000 budynków zasiedlonych przez Ukraińców), ale natychmiastowe ich zaspokojenie przerastało ówczesne możliwości państwa. W latach 1956-1958 władze udzieliły przesiedleńcom kredytów na łączną kwotę 170 mln zł, co na owe czasy było sumą olbrzymią. Znaczna część tych kredytów była bezzwrotna lub została częściowo umorzona w latach następnych. Nie wolno twierdzić, że przesiedlenia w ramach operacji „Wisła” były dobrodziejstwem. Przymus opuszczenia stron rodzinnych to tragedia dla tysięcy rodzin ukraińskich. Niemniej jednak podjęcie w ramach operacji zdecydowanych, radykalnych i niewątpliwie bolesnych działań przyczyniło się do zahamowania przelewu krwi po obu stronach i dało szansę na rozpoczęcie normalnego życia. — Dr. Łukasz Kamiński, IPN

January 20, 2016 edits

I would really like to ask editors to please stop pushing an extreme Polish POV in this article. Operation Vistula is clearly a case of ethnic cleansing, with an entire population being removed without considering who actively took part in the UPA and who did not. What is most shocking is that the Polish Wikipedia article on Operation Vistula is much more balanced. I could translate that article if noone will edit it back to reflect their radical Polish nationalist POV (unlikely unfortunately) as it would be a massive improvement over the sad piece of text that we have now.

The Problems:

1. No Ukrainian sources cited. Only Polish sources, quite extreme ones at that. The Polish parliament has condemned Operation Vistula and none of the country's leaders have defended it. Most of the article rests on material from some Zbigniew Palski

2. Completely irrelevant comparison with the NKVD's anti-UPA operations. Information on these belongs in another article.

3. Internment of Ukrainian intelligencia in the Jaworzno camp completely ignored

4. Polish killings of Ukrainians post-1945 completely ignored. If the UPA conducted "terror actions", then the massacres at Pavlokoma etc can only be considered government-sponsored terrorism. This should be explained in the "Background" section

5. Very much focus on how "good" the Polish government was to those deported. No mention of dispersion of Ukrainian deportees to facilitate assimilation, discrimination of Ukrainians in communist Poland

I would be very happy if a Polish editor would like to work with me on improving this article, making it neutral, including more informaion and sources (not along the lines of all Ukrainian are murderers/the Poles are always right). Right now I'm going to revert it to the (very lacking) version that I wrote because this misinformation shouldn't be allowed to remain on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.228.135.71 (talk) 21:30, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

• Please do not log in and out User Yaro94 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) in order to post your rants in here. Removal of content based on separate articles written in Polish scientific journal by two professional historians from IPN: Dr Zbigniew Palski and Dr. Łukasz Kamiński is not acceptable. Poeticbent talk 00:26, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

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Category:Crimes of the Communist regime in Ukraine against Ukrainians

So Poland is Ukraine?Xx236 (talk) 06:28, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Edit request: UN Charter on the right of self-determination

During Operation Vistula conditions of the United Nations Charter of June 26, 1945 on the right of self-determination and international laws have been respected.

UN Charter[1] contains zero "conditions" on the right of "self-determination". "Self-determination" is mentionted in Charter only once - in Article 1 of Chapter I Purposes and Principles - among the list of The Purposes of the United Nations. Thus assesment of 'conditions ... respected' is logically void. Please feel free to correct me.

Abundant similarly constructed statements on historical subject in Russian gave me no doubt about their intentions. That's rhethoric of history whitewashing meaned to manipulate nations in order to obtain political points. Could not help but project Russian experience here. Let me assure you that rhethoric originate complains - not the following passage on compensations from Polish government.

My request is either deletion of aforementioned sentence or rephrasing it. Maybe "international laws have been respected" and it's just UN Charter which has nothing to do with that. Maybe that's typo and Atlantic Charter was meant. I'd like feedback from Poeticbent who seems to perform keeper duties at this article before editing it myself. 93.73.62.38 (talk) 14:27, 28 December 2016 (UTC)