Talk:African Americans

Previous discussions concerning the infobox in the top right corner of the article can be found at Talk:African Americans/summary.

Resident non-citizens

The definition nor the references support calling non-Citizens African Americans. Eodcarl (talk) 21:16, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? Look at footnote 5: "African Americans are citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa. In the United States, the terms are generally used for Americans with at least partial Sub-Saharan African ancestry."[1] (emphasis added) — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:22, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

That website is not a trustworthy source. To believe that dubious site is to believe that a Kenyan international student in the US is an African-American. One clearly would not be in that circumstance. Get a valid source (which does not exist), or make the article precise, as I already did. Eodcarl (talk) 21:32, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

(e/c) The cite ([5]) says "Americans are citizens or residents of the United States who have origins..." Residents. Now I´m guessing, but I don´t think it refer to tourists, but people living there longer. And apparently, sometimes they can be referred to as AA. Those who don´t want to, don´t have to. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:26, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

The key word is Americans, which is defined only by citizenship, so it doesn't matter how long they reside. It might be news to a Kenyan citizen living in the US that he is an African American. Some might even be offended, but that is not necessary for the fact one has to actually be an American to be an African-American. Eodcarl (talk) 21:42, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

• Regardless, non-citizens are not Americans, whether they be African, British, Chinese, or whatever. They may be visitors, expatriates, resident aliens, foreign embassy staff or whatever. Hmains (talk) 21:32, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I've removed the parenthetical because, despite what the source says about who African Americans are, the sentence as written was defining who Americans are, and that wasn't right. If necessary, we should rewrite the sentence to reflect what the sources say about who African Americans are.

Also note that footnote 4 doesn't say "citizen", it says "a person". — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:35, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Thus cannot be African Americans. Eodcarl (talk) 21:34, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Wrong. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:35, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Oh, in that case. Eodcarl (talk) 21:42, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

I do like your recent rewrite, for what it's worth. Eodcarl (talk) 22:03, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

BTW. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/african-american By actual definition one does have to be an American to be an African American. Eodcarl (talk) 21:55, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

The RS call them African Americans. The "citizenship" argument is OR and is false--it is not supported by the reliable sources such as Encyclopedia of African American History (2010) and Landmarks of African American History (2005). Note by the way that some counties--such as Great Britain, did not have ANY "citizens" in the 19th century (they were all "subjects.") There were no American citizens anywhere before 1776, but there were lots of African Americans as well as German Americans, Irish Americans etc. Rjensen (talk) 00:27, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

No person or persons black, white etc. should be called American if they are not a citizen. This is a falsehood and this should not even be a discussion. If you are not a citizen, you are not American, therefore it is impossible to call a resident (presumingly with a greencard) an American of any kind. I have yet to meet a credible source that stated otherwise. Savvyjack23 (talk) 01:08, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Residents can be deported, while American citizens cannot. People that become American citizens pledge a loyality to the United States, while residents are not obliged to. I can't believe we are having a discussion about this right now. Savvyjack23 (talk) 01:16, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

The RS? The dictionary says it refers to actual Americans. It is only the political correct need to not use the term black or other terms that result in the tortured argument that slaves were African Americans. It is an intellectually lazy term on its face, but if we are forced to use it, we will not use it to describe people who are not Americans. Eodcarl (talk) 01:33, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Use of the term African American to describe non-Americans

I have been in multiple discussions on several articles that use the term African American to describe slaves who were never Americans as African American. I understand the inclination to avoid the term black or other language, but Dred Scott, Nat Turner, among others were not Africa Americans, so they should not be described as such. Precision is the most important thing. Eodcarl (talk) 23:47, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

The reliable secondary sources call people like Dred Scott and Nat Turner "African Americans" For example, Landmarks of African American History (2005) by James Oliver Horton on Scott and Nat Turner: A Slave Rebellion in History and Memory (2004) - Page xv by Kenneth S. Greenberg. Rjensen (talk) 00:16, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

It is clear Dred Scott and others are part of the history of people called African Americans, but since Dred Scott was not an American he cannot be an African American. It doesn't matter that people have erroneously called him and other African Americans. The definition only applies to Americans. Eodcarl (talk) 01:10, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

I believe the consensus is that people born within the borders of the United States are termed Americans even if not citizens (think of them as nationals if you prefer, it is a broader term than citizen) except in a few rare cases (e.g., children of foreign diplomats). To do otherwise is to mean most historic Native Americans aren't Native American and no one was American until the United States was created. If nothing else slaves were considered American property (as opposed to Jamaican slaves who were British property [Jamaica being a British colony]); note as property they weren't deportable and were effectively American as soon as they were sold to an American owner or put to work on American soil. The grey area would be what to call not yet naturalized immigrants or visitors. --Erp (talk) 03:06, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

No, that is not the consensus, at least not for antebellum slaves. Today, according to law, yes. Even freed slaves were not necessarily American. This is just political correct nonsense, not fact. Eodcarl (talk) 03:08, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

I see a fair number of sources supporting the use listed above. Have you some good sources stating otherwise? I must admit I would have considered Cotton Mather American. He is certainly considered an American writer. I would guess that none of those killed in the Boston Massacre were Americans either since the US hadn't declared independence then. I think your reasoning leads to more problems than it solves. Keep distinct the terms US citizen and American. The latter is broader. --Erp (talk) 03:45, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Eodcarl has failed to find any RS (reliable secondary sources) that support his personal POV. There are many studies of African Americans and they all include the slaves (who were not legal citizens). Take a look at the new National Museum of African American History and Culture in Washington that just opened to wide acclaim. Rjensen (talk) 03:47, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Enjoy your alternate reality that uses the fake term African American to refer even to people who were never Americans. I prefer accuracy and precision, neither of which have ever been important on Wikipedia. Enjoy your alternate reality supported by academic elitists who have never done anything. Eodcarl (talk) 03:52, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Eodcarl expresses his contempt for scholarship, for expertise and for historical research. Reliance on personal uniformed prejudices can flourish on Twitter, but please not here. Anyone who wants to ridicule Wikipedia and flout its established procedures is not being helpful in the editorial process. Rjensen (talk) 08:41, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

"Negroes" in the lead

As seen here (followup edit here), I reverted this edit by Rjensen because this matter was previously discussed and settled. As seen at Talk:African Americans/Archive 19#"Negro-American", a discussion which included me, DD2K (Dave Dial) and Soupforone, there was agreement to leave "negro" out of the lead because it's no longer a significant alternative term for a black person and runs afoul the WP:Offensive material guideline. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:05, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

In the terms of the WP:Offensive material guideline, I don't see how the omission of "negro" or "negroes" from the lead is detrimental to the article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:13, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

POV-pushing socks.

I would ask everyone who has this page on their watchlist to please take a look at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/HipHopVisionary. To me, it feels like these socks have been appearing at an increasing rate. Also, not every sockpuppet is as obvious as Illuminati89 was just now. WP:BEANS and all, but these socks most often push their POV in the form of drive-by tagging and adding negative statistics, and outside of this page there also seems to be an interest in hip hop musicians (Drake in particular). It's important to remember to WP:AGF, but just be wary when it comes to new accounts who match that description making suspicious edits to this article. Sro23 (talk) 21:19, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

African Americans vs Black Americans

Is there a reason why both terms don't have their own pages? I only ask because there are two different pages for White Americans and European Americans and maybe we should also do the same to refer to native Black Americans from the U.S. and African Americans who migrate from Africa. I'm just curious and wanted to know if we should separate the two terms or if on the contrary, we should merge both the White Americans and European Americans pages into one. AquilaXIII (talk) 09:21, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

According to the U.S. Census, white Americans include people of Middle Eastern and North African descent, so I can see the point of having two articles. On the other hand, black Americans and African Americans are synonymous. See Race and ethnicity in the United States Census. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 12:33, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Many Black Americans of Caribbean descent reject the term African Americans for themselves and do see a similar distinction as between White and European Americans, with all African Americans being also Black Americans but not all Black Americans being African Americans.81.65.169.250 (talk) 23:53, 10 January 2017 (UTC)