User talk:Pvmoutside

Stonechats

I had the following message via email:

Hi Jim - someone has redirected the Stejneger's Stonechat page on en-wiki to Siberian Stonechat in contradiction to its acceptance as a separate species by IOC; could you revert this edit, please?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stejneger%27s_stonechat&type=revision&diff=738537870&oldid=729222782

Might also be worth dropping a note to the editor concerned that en-wiki policy is to follow IOC taxonomy ;-)

Any comment? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:12, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

IOC comment: Split (IOC 2.4) based on Zink et al. 2009 mtDNA analysis, but may be premature; further resolution of this stonechat complex is needed......also Clements or IUCN has not accepted. We do not follow IOC taxonomy, we do follow for English names only. Because of doubt in IOC, and non acceptance at Clements and IUCN, I decided to redirect......I'd be happy to discuss further, but Stejneger's stonechat should still be a redirect in my opinion.........Pvmoutside (talk) 22:14, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

IUCN updates

I noticed you've been updating the assessment status taxobox parameter in a large number of species. However, could you please also update the citation when you do that? For example, in Squalius anatolicus, the citation still states "Crivelli, A.J. 2005" with an IUCN assessment date of 2006, while the current LC assessment actually is "Freyhof, J. 2014", assessed 2014. I think that may become rather confusing, particularly if it happens over a wide range of articles. Cheers! -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 07:38, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

sorry......will do....Pvmoutside (talk) 18:55, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Similarly for your status update of Dacrydium pectinatum, I updated the IUCN reference. I try to use the Taxobox:status_ref parameter for placing this reference. Thanks Declangi (talk) 04:33, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Archive

Hi. Per H:ARC, we usually start archiving talk pages after it reaches 75k in size. You've been editing for ten years, never archived, and yours is approaching 200k. I see this was brought to your attention three and a half years ago and you have yet to get started. I can help you set it up but the link I provided gives instructions. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:26, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Chris.....done....Pvmoutside (talk) 18:47, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Congress photos

(from your message on Commons) - it seems that the Commons deletion process for copyright violations is more straightforward in that if someone labels an image as such, there's a good chance it'll be deleted even though that judgement might be incorrect. For those Congressional photos you uploaded, some were and some weren't copyvios. It's harder to distinguish on Facebook profiles, but the general rule of thumb is that if they are campaign photos or any other preexisting professional headshot or photos without any explicit release, those aren't considered US Government work and thus are not public domain (off the top of my head, the Arrington, Johnson, Tenney, Demings ones can fall under this description). The ones with the blue backgrounds and flag backgrounds, however, appear to be official US House photos, which seems to have been overlooked by whoever deleted all of the images. Usually "official" photos will have some consistent type of style, as I described. I tried to prevent some of the others from deletion but it seems that was overlooked. Also, generally if the source is from the official website of the congressperson (with a .gov URL) those are in the clear as well but it's quite early in the terms of the new Congress so not many of the websites contain official photos yet. I'm sure someone else might reupload them anyways in the near future, though. If you have any more questions don't hesitate to contact me. Connormah (talk) 13:57, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

List of birds of New Zealand

Can you explain what you are doing? You have taken off some species, e.g. Auckland Islands Merganser, which according to the list criteria should be included as it was extirpated after human settlement of the island.(talk)Quetzal1964 16:49, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

sure......the New Zealand list I think should incorporate only those species seen on "mainland" New Zealand.....species on any of the offshore islands (i.e. Auckland, Chatham, Kermadec, etc. should have their own lists and are redlinked on the regional birds page...)....Pvmoutside (talk) 16:56, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Erm? There is no mainland New Zealand, it's an archipelago, the two largest islands are North Island and South Island. It's also a nation state to which the other islands belong. I don't agree with what you are doing because you are using your own definition of New Zealand, what about Stewart Island is that part of the "mainland". If we applied that logic then a list of birds of Great Britain would not include birds which have occurred on the Scilly Islands, Shetland or the Outer Hebrides but not on the island of Great Britain. I see you have chosen to insert your own definition of what the list covers, I think that at least you should have put something on the Talk page first as a point of discussion.(talk)Quetzal1964 19:42, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

that is why I put "mainland" in quotations.......the offshore islands I am deleting out are more than 200 miles off the coast. Those islands will eventually have their own pages. Do we add all the Birds of the British Virgin Islands or Bermuda to the Britsh page? Do we add the birds of Christmas Island, Norfolk, or Lord Howe Islands to Australia?.....Pvmoutside (talk) 21:05, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

I see your point but these islands are all linked biogeographically whereas the British Virgin Islands and Bermuda are in the Neotropics and not the Palearctic and, yes, I could see some value in adding Christmas Island, Norfolk, or Lord Howe Islands to an Australian list. I have added a comment to the talk page so hopefully we can see what other editors think. Anyway, I'm in a good mood as Scotland squeezed a win past the Irish at Rugby today and tomorrow I go birding. (talk) Quetzal1964 21:16, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

go get 'em!....Pvmoutside (talk) 21:28, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Common Kingfisher always well worth seeing, Fieldfares too. (talk) Quetzal1964 20:11, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• It's an article I started working on in my sandbox - take a look and see if you think it helps. User:Sabine's Sunbird/newzealandbird. I'd use the OSNZ list as a guide of what to include in the article. Sabine's Sunbird talk 22:21, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

• Also, as I said in the talk page, serious disagree with removing offshore islands. They are politically and biogeographically New Zealand proper. Removing them would not be like not including the British Virgin Islands from the British list, it would be like taking Shetland and Orkney out. Sabine's Sunbird talk 22:57, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

• Sabine's Sunbird...I agree with your argument to keep the offshore island birds on the main New Zealand list (you make a great point about Alaska, and the Australia list is inclusive of their offshore islands), so I'll return the birds to the current list as time allows. Sorry about my unfamiliarity with the islands. As another thought I had, for example, Puerto Rico is not included on the US list, and I thought them territories rather than a true part of New Zealand....Feel free to return them (or anyone else for that matter) since I've updated the index and format somewhat on the current list. I also really like your sandbox New Zealand list, but it looks like it's been inactive for a bit until you picked it up again a few days ago. Can I help or are you OK and would rather finish on your own?....Pvmoutside (talk) 19:07, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

• the books I need to finish my plan are packed away for a few months, but it would be good to finish. Sabine's Sunbird talk 20:21, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

on your own or with help?.....Pvmoutside (talk) 20:23, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Oh, help would definitely be better. As you can see from the edit history I haven't touched it in a long time. Sabine's Sunbird talk 20:38, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

so i'd like to start by moving over bird families that are essentially done. One question I have before getting started is a listing for Stewart Island which I see you've left off. Isn't Stewart a major enough island to have it's own listing box on the NZ page? My guess is Codfish and other minor islands can be included there?.....Pvmoutside (talk) 21:25, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

It is large, but it isn't sufficiently distinct biogeographically. I can only really think of one species found there that you wouldn't find on South Island (introduced Subantarctic Snipe). Sabine's Sunbird talk 22:15, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm more concerned what species aren't there, than what species are.....also, don't some of the procellarids nest there that don't on South Island? Seems like a hole if it's not listed........Pvmoutside (talk) 15:58, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Also worth noting that some species, such as Auckland Islands Merganser (better referred to as Southern Merganser, never called Auckland Merganser despite what IOC says) were formerly abundant on the mainland – yes, New Zealand has a mainland – but were wiped off the main islands by humans. So they should absolutely be included in a list of NZ birds. Knowing what to include in that list requires either checking the appropriate articles for historical info, or being familiar with NZ bird biogeography such as Worthy and Holdaway (2002) The Lost World of the Moa. Unfortunately many articles don't have this information included, and need work. Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 19:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Grey duck

Pacific Black Ducks or Grey Ducks - apart from the Chathams, I suspect your source is out of date. The species is almost effectively extinct here. Sabine's Sunbird talk 18:32, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up.....I used the Te Papa reference, and didn't realize the extent of the Mallard gene swamping. Same thing to a slightly lesser extent going on with American Black Duck.....I changed most of the subantarctic island to extirpated....let me know what you think now.....Pvmoutside (talk) 16:02, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I fixed the Campbell and Auckland teals which were showing in Auckland and Snares respectively - you may want to check the other ducks. Sabine's Sunbird talk 18:22, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

IOC names

I notice you're changing some of the link names to NZ bird articles to conform to the IOC list. Wikipedia has different naming conventions, based on what's used in the main reliable sources. So for example the name Bushwren is wrong, and should be moved to New Zealand bush wren, as you can see I did with New Zealand rock wren. There are quite a few birds in that category – Auckland merganser, Chatham snipe – and it might be best to move articles based on the current NZ checklist, the standard current field guide (Heather and Robertson) and NZbirdsonline. Otherwise those links you're fixing will have to be changed back. Cheers, Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 19:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

so I'm a little confused by your statements. New Zealand rock wren is a proper IOC English name, but Bush wren is also proper IOC and that is how I'll leave it. I did change Stephens Island wren to Lyall's wren because the IOC made a case that the bird historically was not confined to Stephens Island, (was found on North Island as well). Stephens Island was it's last stronghold. Same with Auckland merganser, which the IOC states was also historically found on South and Stewart Islands, and should be called New Zealand merganser, which I'm also thinking of changing. There have been cases where the project has left a local name in place (Australian wood duck instead of the IOC name of maned duck for example), but a discussion should take place regarding a specific species before the non IOC name is used......Pvmoutside (talk) 20:40, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

On the IOC list for Acanthisittidae the official IOC names are "New Zealand rockwren" and "Bushwren", neither of which are commonly used by New Zealanders, the NZ checklist, field guides, or the scientific literature. Wikipedia does not necessarily use the IOC list when deciding what to title articles: "Wikipedia article titles may diverge from the IOC list when the most common name in reliable sources is different from the IOC name." (from WP:BIRDS). New Zealand birds have for some reason been badly served by the IOC! Personally I wouldn't even put the alternative IOC name in bold unless there's evidence it's in wide use, which most are not (yet). Good on you for moving Lyall's wren and the NZ merganser (the latter it's also commonly known as the southern merganser BTW). A suggestion: before moving an article I'd probably post a request for comment on the Talk page for a while to see if anyone has objections. Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 20:15, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Rock wren is also used as the primary species name for Salpinctes obsoletus from North America. Unfortunately in Wikipedia there is no way to use the same name on a species page title (see American/Pacific black duck, American/Australian white ibis, American/African yellow warbler). A case can be made to change the American bird's name to American rock wren based on the naming standards of the other species, but would need to be discussed. I see your point about Bushwren/Bush wren. My guess is it was changed by the IOC to separate from the New World wrens. Since there are no bush wrens except for the New Zealand birds, a discussion can be put forward for Wikipedia to call them that.......There are ways to reflect names on regional pages (see List of birds of New Zealand....Let me know what you think and if you have other conflicts......Would love to have you get more involved in Wikiproject Birds....Pvmoutside (talk) 21:29, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

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