Talk:Marsha P. Johnson

Birth year

1945 based on sign archived here. Fales Library Guide to the REPOhistory Archive Not the best source, but trans history gets pretty murky back then. Jokestress 06:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

1945 does look to be correct, according to the Social Security database. I searched on Johnson's birth name and place, including date and location of death for additional confirmation, and widening the search to include anyone of that name born within two years to either side of 1944. There is only one Malcolm Michaels, Jr on record for Elizabeth, NJ who fits those parameters (including the known detail that Johnson was also known as "Mike" or "Mikey" by family), with a birth date of 24 Aug 1945. - CorbieV^☊☼ 22:45, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Gender

I think it's a bit disingenuous to refer to him as a she, regardless of his sexual identity. I suggest we refer to him as a she only after that identity was adopted, not before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.114.207 (talk) 06:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The female pronouns are a drag queen thing. Most of Marsha's friends used she/her for Marsha, most of the time, but it was also common to use those as friendly (or catty) referrers to gay men then, as well. It's subcultural. Marsha didn't freak out if someone used male pronouns, either, as long as it wasn't done in a hateful way. If you watch the documentary she says things like, "I'm a man," two days before her death. Marsha didn't have a different personality in and out of drag. She just dressed femme most of the time, but she didn't do anything to change her body (even temporarily, as some queens will use strategic padding for performances). She was more like a radical faery than a high drag performance queen. - CorbieV^☊ 21:04, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Carter goes into Johnson's 'male persona' as well. Looking for the page number now. The only mention I've seen of the "Marshall" name being used, besides hearing it from Johnson and mutual friends, is in a comment in the zagria source. The zagria source is interesting. Though it is hosted on blogspot, it is footnoted. I venture to say it wouldn't be seen as questionable if they had the resources to set up a proper website. I'm for including that page as a source due to the footnotes, much as we accept official sites that happen to use wordpress software as a hosting platform. - CorbieV^☊☼ 17:36, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

OK, in Carter it's the last three pages of chapter three, but it's generally about Johnson's "male persona" than specifics about pronouns. We didn't care so much about pronouns then as some do now, so I'm not surprised it's not spelled out. The online preview doesn't show page numbers. I'll keep my eyes open for sources on the "Marshall" thing. Randy Wicker has an interview with Johnson's sister where she calls him Mikey, and that is one of the names Johnson used when applying for social security (seen in source one). Contrary to online misinformation, Johnson never filed for a legal name change, and seemed to be in 'male persona' more and more often from the 1980s on. - CorbieV^☊☼ 18:14, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

It's not clear that the assertion that Johnson identified herself as a woman is supported by the reference.

> Over the years, Johnson identified as a "drag queen", a "boy in drag", a "girlie", a "gay transvestite", a "homosexual", a "street transvestite", and finally, as a "woman", as indicated in the 1992 video interview with Johnson a few days before she died, in which she stated, "When I became a drag queen, I started to live...my life, as a woman."

"I lived my life as a woman" is not the same as "I am a woman." Transforming "I lived as a woman" to "I am a woman" seems like putting word's in Johnson's mouth, especially given the innumerable instances where Johnson refers to herself as "gay," i.e. a homosexual man, as well as a "transvestite," in this case a man who wears women's clothing. Is there another source that more clearly states that Johnson considered herself to be a woman? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.80.113.72 (talk) 04:25, 2 July 2017 (UTC) (created an account: --Justthefacks (talk) 14:24, 4 July 2017 (UTC))

REGARDING MARSHA P. JOHNSON'S STATUS AS A TRANSGENDER WOMAN

Marsha never referred to herself as a "man", as is frequently misquoted in this section. She tolerated people mis-gendering her by "paying it no mind", and described herself as "gay" "homosexual" etc to indicate her cultural and sexual orientation, not her gender identity. That analysis is not supposition; it is evidenced by her entire life and trajectory. "Living my life as a woman" exactly describes the experience of a transgender woman. please read the wiki page defining 'transgender woman" for contemporary definition. Marsha continually differentiated her lived experience from that of the gay men surrounding her. in one example she states that Stonewall was a bar "just for gay men" (thereby excluding her) and later allowing "women and drag queens" to enter. If she was a "gay man", as one editor continues to suggest, she could have entered a bar for gay men. Yes, Johnson referred to herself elsewhere as "gay" but not as a "gay man". she referred to herself as a "gay transvestite" which intuitively describes both her sexual orientation (as being attracted to men) and her gender identity (as living "as a woman"). The word "transgender" didn't even exist when Marsha was growing up, and people utilized the words that were available then to describe their experience. To use her moments of self identification as "homosexual" or "gay" as evidence that she thought of herself in any way as "man" is misleading and transphobic. During Marsha's formative years, the street meaning of words like "gay" and "homosexual" didnt necessarily denote a gender identity in the way that the words do today. "Gay" could refer to anyone from a man who had sex with other men to a fully-fledged hijra. Critically, all of Johnson's closest friends still living identify her as "transgender", not as a "man". Randy Wickers, Marsha's roommate and patron for years, especially insists on it, as do all those who knew and loved her.

Marsha was an impoverished homeless prostitute for much of her life. The governmental and medical establishments of the 70s 80s and 90s were grossly transphobic, not to mention racist. Applying for a government name change would have required a level of bureaucracy that was not on Johnson's radar, especially as someone struggling with mental health issues, homelessness and AIDS. Her willingness to endure misgendering on birth certificates, social security documents or from medical institutions is not evidence of her waning core gender identity. She was struggling to survive and did not have the privilege, resources or mobility to pursue such ends. She picked her battles and expressed her primary sense of self in her daily presence just walking down the street. Randy Wickers' decision to take her in off the streets was contingent upon her wearing male clothes when coming and going from the building, and Randy describes how Johnson would change into women's clothes on the train on her way into the city, so again it is inaccurate to describe Johnson's transgenderism as having waned, especially in light of her final interview, in which she expresses her life as having been lived "as a woman". Furthermore, being misgendered by family members is not evidence of Johnson's maleness; it is evidence of her family's transphobic tendencies, which Johnson vividly recounts at the end of her life.

Today Marsha's gender identity falls under the category of "transgender woman" since her represention of her own womanhood was neither fetishistic (contemporary definition of a "transvestite") or solely performative (contemporary definition of "drag queen".) Her self-identification as a "drag queen" was a colloquialism that would today fall into the category of "transgender woman" because her dressing in women's clothes and referring to herself as "she" was not done solely for the entertainment of others (please see wikipedia definition of "drag queen",) but as a clear representation of her essential self. To this end, I know transsexual women even today who will refer to themselves as "queens" in the right company. The appropriation of terms like "gay" and queen" by some transgender women often reflects someone who was identified as a child as an unusually feminine "gay" and who was downstreamed(!) into the margins of gay society as a young adult, versus the "culturally heterosexual" transgender woman, who endured childhood in the closet, often presenting as a masculine heterosexual man until such time as her frustration compelled them to transition, mostly as an adult. There is still a rarely addressed chasm of difference between the ways that trans women from these two radically different trajectories utilize language, and of course there is a bit of cross over, but not much. However. as children transition younger and younger now, those cultural divides between these different branches of transgender women are breaking down. It often seems that "culturally heterosexual" transgender women have a hard time wrapping their minds around the lives of "culturally homosexual" transgender women, and these kinds of dismissive readings of Johnson's self identification are case in point. Compound this with differences in race, class and access to resources between different kinds of transgender women, and you are faced with subcultures of people using some of the same words in wildly different ways.

The very fact that all these editors are referring to Marsha as "she" while trying to insist that she was "man" is ironic to say the least and speaks volumes about Marsha's enduring core gender identity. To dismiss her female identification and its recognition by others as a "drag queen thing" is not only inaccurate; it diminishes her life, her courage, and her contribution as a frontline activist and pioneer for transgendered rights. There were plenty of actual drag queens around during Johnson's lifetime who lived lives of male privilege by day and then dressed up to entertain other gay men at night. If she was really more like a "radical faerie" than a transgender woman, why was she compelled to suffer for years as a cross-dressed street prostitute? She herself says that a life of street prostitution is a terrible one. If she had the agency of a gay man, why didn't she just get a job as a waiter and enjoy her "radical faerie" gender expressions on the weekends? What man cross-dresses during the course of his entire life just so that he can be a transgender sex worker, risking his life on a daily basis so that he can eat? Such a paradigm simply does not exist.

One editor uses Johnson's lack of use of padding as a further lack of commitment on Johnson's part to perform as female. But in Pay It No Mind, Johnson talks about using her natural hair to be more attractive to men, and her friends refer to her as striving for a "natural look". And the very fact that she "didnt have a different personalilty in and out of drag" is further evidence that she was a transgender woman 24 hours a day, no matter how she was dressed.

Only representing Johnson's gender identity with antiquated language, the meanings of which have since changed and which were colloquially charged to begin with, leads to a misrepresentation of the subject's life and core identity. In my view it is important both to represent her multi-faceted use of language to describe her identity and then to frame her life to the best of our ability with contemporary language in an effort to better understand and represent it to readers. Rebismusic (talk) 11:06, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

If you check Marsha's birth certificate, check the date of when it was sent, probably paid for (1990), she still identified as a "male" and her legal name was still Malcolm Michaels (with just the "Jr" designation removed). If she really had transitioned and "was a woman" as you said (again, she only said "woman" as something she identified with and at the time that wasn't enough to say you were transgender, and we don't know if she only said that because she suffered from depression and had suicidal episodes). A final decree could be a death certificate but remember when she initially considered transitioning, it was in 1972 and eighteen years later (and less than two years before she died), she still was identified as "male". It's true she never said she was a "man" in the final interview but she also said she was gay (or a homosexual) and also said things like "people couldn't believe I wasn't a real woman, I was just a transvestite" and recalled what her mother told her after he came out as gay, saying "being homosexual was lower than a dog [to her], she told me 'you're gay, you're lower than a dog'", which is something written in the same article. So how can she be transgender and still refer to herself as a homosexual in the same interview? You see what I mean? Sylvia did the same thing and she wasn't a trans woman (as far as I know anyway) either. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 21:56, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Dear Timothy, thank you for joining me in talk. Many of your questions are answered in the post prior to yours, but i will try to respond to each of your points for clarity.

If you check Marsha's birth certificate, check the date of when it was sent, probably paid for (1990), she still identified as a "male" and her legal name was still Malcolm Michaels (with just the "Jr" designation removed

In order to change your sex on your birth certificate in those days you had to have completed a full sex change operation or have a very crafty doctor. Marsha was beholden both to welfare services and the lowest rung of medical care, and she without the means to attain legal advice. She had a long criminal record and would have been loath to engage city institutions to endure the humiliation of trying to charge her name legally. Her birth certificate was likely her only piece of ID. Remember that her motto was "Pay it No Mind".

If she really had transitioned and "was a woman" as you said (again, she only said "woman" as something she identified with and at the time that wasn't enough to say you were transgender, and we don't know if she only said that because she suffered from depression and had suicidal episodes). she also said she was gay (or a homosexual) and also said things like "people couldn't believe I wasn't a real woman, I was just a transvestite"

Marsha grew up in the homosexual street subculture and was attracted to men. In those days transgender women who had grown up as very feminine "boys" and who sought out gay subcultures to find like minded people would often appropriate some language used by gay men to describe their identities. This was before a category of "transgender" was available to them, and many of them used the words "gay" and even "homosexual" to describe their specific type of transgender experience. Imagine that "gay" describes her sexual orientation and "transvestite" describes her gender identity. This makes it easier to understand. The only other newly emerging category in the 70s was "transsexual" and even some transsexuals still identified as "queens" in the right company. It might seem complicated to understand but these words meant different things to different demographics during different periods of history. The word "drag queen" today refer very specifically to gay men who dress in women's clothes in order to entertain others. Marsha does not fit this description. She was a street prostitute who lived most of her life dressed as a woman because that was how she felt most comfortable.

Regarding her mental health, there are plenty of people with more than one thing going on in their lives, and their are plenty of transgender people with mental health issues, but i have never seen evidence or documentation of a person who was only transgender because of their mental health, especially not someone as naturally feminine as Marsha. In fact, one source in the wiki article expresses that her expression of her female transgender identity would falter when she was having mental health issues, not the other way around.

Please look up the definition of "transgender woman" here on wikipedia. You might be surprised to realize that the category is much broader than simply those who have taken steps to transition via medical surgery.

A final decree could be a death certificate but remember when she initially considered transitioning, it was in 1972 and eighteen years later (and less than two years before she died), she still was identified as "male".

A death certificate would not be able to report on Marsha's gender identity but only on the remains of the body that the coroner examined.

Did you know Marsha personally? All of her closest friends here in NYC considered her to be a transgendered woman and refer to her as such today. The only people who might contest it are those gay men who havent accepted transgender as a legitimate status at all, but unfortunately those are not enough grounds to rewrite someone else's lifelong narrative.

Sylvia did the same thing and she wasn't a trans woman (as far as I know anyway) either.

Actually Sylvia very vocally identified as a transgender woman later in her life, and you can find many videos of her on youtube discussing this, starting in the late nineties until she passed away. She would never have suggested that Marsha was anything other than a transgender woman.

I hope this helps to clarify things for you. It is so important, especially now that Marsha P Johnson is becoming a more visible icon in the world, that her Wikipedia entries are accurate and dignified and recognize her work, her courage, her identity and her vulnerabilities. A whole new generation of young people are learning about Marsha now. As someone who was closer to her, it is important to me that she is represented with the respect and accuracy that she deserves. It will make a huge difference to trans kids around the world. Imagine how confused they would be to try and visualize Marsha P. Johnson as one of the drag queens on Rupaul's Drag Race. She was not as they are, in fact she was barely a performer, and she was always 100 percent herself.Rebismusic (talk) 23:59, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Rebismusic: do you have a source that says Johnson identified as transgender or as a women, i.e. "I am a woman" or equivalent? If not, the most generous way to describe that assertion here (that Johnson was transgender) is "original research." As far as I know this is not allowed on Wikipedia. If there's no source for the claim that Johnson identified herself as transgender this claim should be removed.

Above is my "technical" complaint. Some additional editorial thoughts follow: In gender/trans theory, how a person self identifies is considered paramount. Telling someone who never explicitly identified as trans "you're trans" is no less misgendering than telling someone who identifies as trans "you're not trans." Johnson was a person with her own identity who lived when she lived, not in 2017. Whether she would identify as "trans" today, we'll never know, and it's not responsible or respectful to assume we know the answer to that. All we can say about Johnson's identity (at least here on Wikipedia) is what she herself said, and she did not say she was trans.

In the source you quoted, Johnson says "When I became a drag queen, I started to live...my life, as a woman" (emphasis added). If you really want to draw a conclusion about Johnson's "ultimate identity" from this quote, it would make more sense to say she ultimately identified as a drag queen (which she "became"), not a woman (which she "lived as"). To repeat: can you please provide a source stating clearly in Johnson's own words that she identified as trans or considered herself "to be" a women? So far there's little more than conjecture here. Justthefacks (talk) 14:24, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. I can see your point.My goal is to remove the presumption that the word "drag queen" in Johnsons vernacular means the same thing as it does to people today. I have proposed a new soultion in the opening statement that is very specific in this regard. Let me know what you think.Rebismusic (talk) 16:57, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Dear "Just The Facts" Thinking more about your statement, of course you are correct that how a person self-identifies is paramount. And of course telling someone what gender they are is a fool's game. But that is not the situation we are faced with here. In this case, we are trying to best understand how to represent a person who has been dead for 25 years who used a panoply of words to describe herself, including "drag queen", long before the word "transgender" was being significantly circulated, but whose life in no way conformed to the contemporary accepted definition of "drag queen". (see link to Bob Kohler's statement "in those days we didnt have transgender") This is a person who never explicitly identified as a "man" but is on record as "living as a woman". And this is a person whose narrative is being contexualized right out of the gates within the modern definition of 'drag queen', a classification which refers overwhelmingly to gay men who dress in exaggerated female costumes to entertain others (while marsha was a homeless sex worker, noted for wearing her own hair and for having a "natural look" because she felt it made her more attractive to men.) There are obvious issues here of era, race, class, sexual orientation, privilege, and transphobia that are erased by simply stating that Marsha P Johnson was a drag queen and linking to the wiki page on drag queens for further information. Furthermore, in response to your statement that Johnson cannot be identified here as trans because she never explicitly stated she was trans, the definition on wikipedia of "transgender" says that the term extends to include cross-dressers, and she certainly identified as a "transvestite", and if transvestites are indeed a subset of transgender people then by Wikepedia's own standard, Marsha qualifies at the very least as a transgender person who was "living her life as a woman". Randy Wicker, Johnson's best friend and roommate for the last ten years of her life, refers to Johnson exclusively as transgender. In any case, as someone who knew and admired Marsha P. Johnson, I represent those who find this approach of reducing Johnson's experience to that of a drag queen without any qualification on the matter to be offensive, disrespectful, and an unjust misrepresentation of her life.[User:Rebismusic|Rebismusic]] (talk) 00:20, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

I didn't recall Randy mention Marsha being transgender in that documentary you cited. Neither did Agosto Machado, another androgynous gender non conforming gay activist that you quoted as saying she was transgender. The only one who said so was Michael Musto when he mentioned her being in Andy Warhol's Ladies & Gentlemen series, describing her as a "transgender version of Campbell's Soup, but a prettier one"; Musto was the only one to mention "transgender" among those interviewed; but neither he nor anyone else interviewed ever uttered that she was transgender or even transitioned (if she did, I think it would've been brought up, no?); I did hear "drag queen" from Randy and Agosto though when they described her (as did most of the people interviewed in the documentary, most of them mentioned her being a drag queen way more so than a transgender woman; in fact one person even used he/him pronouns for Marsha. Otherwise, whenever Marsha was discussed, it was as a gay person. Not necessarily a gay man, but a gay person nonetheless; the "saint of gay life", "homophobic gay men" in response to the backlash she got from other gay men about her presence at Christopher Street and in Greenwich Village entirely. Also, a transgender person profiled on HBO years ago described the difference between a transgender woman (who she was) and a transvestite saying transvestites "wore women's clothes and lived as women". Which is what Marsha basically said; again, Marsha's description that when she became a drag queen, she lived her life as a woman, that can explain most drag queens who don't transition though some drag queens eventually do transition; like I said, if Marsha was serious enough to have surgery, she'd save enough money so she could get it done but she never did and seemed to be satisfied on being a gay person. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 01:01, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Dear Timothy, Thankyou for your response. sorry, you are right, i was thinking of a different interview from Randy, and from my own conversations over the years with Agosto, and to Bob Kohlers general statement that people called themselves drag queens because "we didnt have transgender back then" which i linked to a while ago but which you subsequently erased. I have posted the link to a different video that includes Randy's statement that Marsha was transgender. Also, please understand that transgender people do not have to undergo surgery in order to be transgender, or to be "serious" about being transgender. In fact, they dont have to transition in any recognizable way at all. The word transgender is an umbrella term that potentially embraces a wide cross section of gender variant people, according to the wiki definition of transgender, and can include people who also identify as "gay". i think you are confusing the word transgender with transsexual. you rightly note that she doesnt call herself a gay "man" but just "gay" and that is the crucial distinction. she was not another gay "man" according to her own self ID, but she did share aspects of gay culture with gay men.

Well back in those days, "transgender" was hard to define. If you wanted to transition, they didn't use "transgender", they used "transsexual", if one was to transition, whereas transgender wasn't even around at the time. It's kinda vague to put every drag queen in the column of transgender though a good portion of drag queens did transitioned, Marsha herself never did. Even Sylvia Rivera eventually got on hormonal treatment and started growing breasts and she and Marsha were in that same boat together. So if Sylvia managed to transitioned, why didn't her best friend in the world join her? You see what I'm saying? Both of them were dead broke and homeless and had to hustle in the streets but Sylvia still got around to transition while Marsha, for some reason, decided not to (from what I can gather). And as I understood, no, you have to have surgery to transition. I think when we talk about Marsha, we have to respect what she herself said. YES she said she "began living as a woman" when she became a drag queen, but it's still not the same thing as "being a woman", you know? For her, acquiring another gender meant to see if "she could get away with it" (her words) and despite all those scrapes and being shot at and thrown in the river, she was proud she survived it up until that fateful day when she disappeared on June 30, 1992 before she was found in the Hudson River six days later. I mean I understand what you're trying to say but in Marsha's own mouth in the final interview she did, she still say she was gay. That's just a fact. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 17:37, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Picture

According to Stephan L. Cohen's book "The Gay Liberation Youth Movement in New York: 'An Army of Lovers Cannot Fail'" the picture used for this entry is not Marsha P. Johnson. Photographer Diane Davies, who took the picture, mis-labeled the photo as Marsha when in actuality it is a portrait of Nova, a member of the the New York-based gay liberation organization Gay Youth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.67.167 (talk) 02:43, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Then the New York Public Library has it wrong. Was it just the one photograph that was mislabeled? Davies also had some other photos of Johnson. Gobōnobō ^{+ c} 07:14, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

It looks as if it was just the one photo that was mislabeled. Cohen (p. 48) notes that ze was identified by Bob Kohler July 21, 2003 and Perry Brass, January 7, 2007. Gobōnobō ^{+ c} 21:51, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Transgender

Some contributions I made to the article were reverted. One reversion that was mystifying and unexplained was taking down a reference to Johnson as a transgender rights activist; she is labeled as such by many of the sources already in the article and in the infobox in the article. Another reversion took down references to Marsha herself as transgender. This is referenced in two academic texts that I added as citation. There is also an interview, can be found here, with Marsha P. Johnson where the interviewer asks if she's a pre-op transsexual and planning to have gender reassignment surgery, which she says she plans on having in a year. This question is on p. 29 of the Rapping With a Street Transvestite interview. I believe these sources are strong enough to refer to Marsha as transgender or transsexual in the article, but let me know if there is any issue I'm missing or an opinion on how this information should be added. Rab V (talk) 12:00, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rab, on WP we go with the person's last stated identification rather than things they might have said once when much younger. There is no year on that interview, but given the discussion, terminology and financial amounts stated, I think it was very early (probably early 1970s). Johnson never followed through, and over and over in that same piece Johnson self-identifies as a "gay transvestite." That interview was the only instance I've seen or heard of Johnson saying that s/he was considering surgery, and it is overwhelmed by all the times Johnson identified differently, especially near the end of her life where s/he said, two days before s/he was murdered, "I'm a man." As I commented above, near the end of Johnson's life, Johnson was increasingly presenting in the Malcolm, Marshall or Mikey persona. If we can find corroborating evidence, I think we could use it as a source for, as in the Rivera article, a brief bit under the identity section about having considered transition when younger but ultimately rejecting it. I think the interview in "Pay it no Mind" supersedes that one statement, even if we decide to mention in the gender section that s/he considered it.

I did a text search on both of Stryker books and re-read the chapters where Johnson is mentioned and there is nothing to support Johnson identifying as either transsexual or transgender. If you think I missed something, please post an exact quote with page numbers here so we can discuss it. Stryker's choice to include a few lines on STAR in a chapter on trans activism is not a statement of self-identification by Johnson. As I went into over at Talk:Sylvia Rivera[1], the word "transgender" had not yet come into popular usage while Johnson was alive. The small number of us who were using it in the early '90s were doing so to describe all gender-nonconforming (gnc) people. It was also used specifically to distinguish gnc people from transsexuals who were taking a medical/surgical route. In Rivera and Feinberg's early usage, they meant all gnc people, and from everything I can find that they wrote and said, as well as personal memories of community discussions they were in, that is the meaning they continued to use for the rest of their lives. When you swapped in "transgender" you also removed citations where Johnson and Rivera refer to themselves and each other, over and over, as queens.

Despite this (but I do think it's fudging in a bit), due to Rivera's later renaming of STAR I think it's acceptable to have "transgender activist" in the body of the article, just not the lede as that was not Johnson's main focus. Rivera founded and later renamed STAR, not Johnson. It's in the infobox up top already.

While the Untorelli compilation is very useful, there are also issues with it. It's self-published, isn't it? There's a lot of opinion in there by the editor that does not line up with what the subjects had to say for themselves, and it's seriously lacking in context for many of the pieces. There are some statements in there by Johnson and Rivera that make no sense, that contradict themselves mid-paragraph. I would really, really like to see more about the original documents, and basic documentation like what years the interviews were done. For instance, did Rivera type this up herself? Write it by hand? Dictate it? Obviously some of it, like the 1973 Liberation Day speech is transcribed. And.... we have to ask, what state of mind was Rivera in? These pieces were written or transcribed over a wide range of time, and only compiled after Johnson and Rivera were both dead. Rivera struggled with heroin and alcohol addiction, and Johnson had severe mental illness. Given this, contradictory statements are no surprise. So while I feel it's useful for some sourcing, I really feel we need to confirm some of the things in there with additional sources.

Again, some of these words have changed in meaning over the years since they died. In some cases, the change in definition has been radical, and to apply them retrospectively would misrepresent the subjects. Not all writers in the field seem to know this. As on other historical articles, it's not our place as Wikipedians to speculate on what dead people would have called themselves now. It's our place to document how they self-identified, and then if footnotes are needed to explain how meanings have changed, as is done on other historical gay/LGBT articles, that's what we do. Best, - CorbieV^☊☼ 15:59, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I just removed two citations used to show they identified as queens since I didn't see that information in the references. I am not arguing they had never identified as such, and didn't change the content of the article in that regard, just changed the citations. It sounds like I missed the relevant info in the sources though I haven't checked back again. The untorelli compilation was linked since it is available online in it's entirety, but the interview appeared beforehand in the book Out of the Closets edited by Karla Jay and Allen Young and was first published in the 70s. The interviewer is cited as Bob Kohler of the Gay Liberation Front. Rab V (talk) 20:59, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I have changed the citation from Untorelli to the original "Out of the closets" published and copyrighted by Allen Young who was the interviewer. Untorelli as an anarchist group apparently doesn't respect copyright law and doesn't bother itself with attribution. Pjefts (talk) 05:59, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Marsha P. Johnson's documentary and her gender

I find it interesting that one editor seemingly keeps editing information about Johnson. At no point in the interview did she mention being a transgender woman. Most drag queens like Johnson often talked of "living life as a woman" without actually going through with transitioning, which was a new process at the time (Christine Jourgensen was among the first to talk about transitioning and that was in the fifties). But unlike, say Crystal Labeija and Felicia Elizondo, who lived similar lives to Johnson (often homeless and working as sex workers; while Labeija basically was a drag queen and later created one of the first drag balls in NYC), Marsha never went ahead with transitioning while Labeija, Elizondo and other trans icons such as Jackie Curtis and Holly Woodlawn went through with it. Both Johnson and her best friend/partner in the STAR organization, Sylvia Rivera, still identified as drag queens until the end of her life. And as mentioned in the article I edited, Johnson DID mention being homosexual/gay. I just don't get how editing out while not adding much information about her being transgender works for the article. Wikipedia is supposed to be about research. From now, I'm just gonna use quotes and put them as references. Again, if you wanna dispute that, you might need to watch the entire documentary again. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 21:50, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Most drag queens like Johnson often talked of "living life as a woman" without actually going through with transitioning, which was a new process at the time

Could you support that statement with some evidence in an official definition of "drag queen"?

other trans icons such as Jackie Curtis and Holly Woodlawn went through with it.

Jackie Curtis never transitioned. Further more, todays definition of a transgender woman does require that she undergo medical intervention.

Both Johnson and her best friend/partner in the STAR organization, Sylvia Rivera, still identified as drag queens until the end of her life

Sylvia vigorous identified as a transgender woman later in her life.

Again, if you wanna dispute that, you might need to watch the entire documentary again.

I actually helped to edit the documentary.Rebismusic (talk) 00:13, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

So you edited that documentary, yet except for a quote from Michael Musto, none of the people interviewed ever said she was a transgender woman? BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 02:18, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

we are talking little in circles here. Johnson is not recorded using the word "transgender" to describe herself, but by stating she is a "transvestite" she is included under the umbrella of transgenderism, at least according to wikipedia. she stated in the interview that she lived as a woman. it feels a tiny bit tragic that there are people still unwilling to acknowledge what is so painfully obvious to those who knew her or who had any compassion for her at least and it is a sad state of affairs when the leading trans activists of this country still cant be called trans because of some kind of perversely transphobic word policing. there is barely any documentation about marsha there are a few scraps of video and a few dubious ancient interviews. And believe it or not, Pay it No Mind wasnt edited to include "proof" that she was trans. it didnt even occur to us that we would need to defend a legacy that seemed do obvious. it is only now that we ee it, in the face of this antagonistic obsession on the part of some whose intent it seems to be to thwart the most glaringly obvious part of Johnsons' narrative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebismusic (talk • contribs) 06:10, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Article in need of some serious improvement.

I've been trying to make sure this article is well researched but one editor keeps making a mess of the article. Plus that California section is not well researched either. Instead of just adding information and untruths, let's fully researched what we can so we can come to an agreement. Especially as far as Marsha's gender identity goes. Oddly enough, no one has touched Sylvia Rivera's article but people are heavily editing this one? BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 00:58, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Well, we all see that only one person is heavily editing this article to suit their own narrative, despite many different editors call this person out on it. Mileyboo3 (talk) 03:01, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Their claim is they helped produce the documentary but it's funny in that documentary, none of the stuff the editor claims hasn't been corroborated at all. Thing is if Marsha herself had she WAS a woman as opposed to living life as one, then that'd be one thing but she also claimed being gay and a transvestite until she died. And for some reason, the editor wants to constantly erase that despite Marsha's own words not fitting with the narrative. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 04:06, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

its funny that you say the article is full of untruths, when virtually every sentence in it is referenced or a direct quote.

The article is filled with references to Johnson being a transvestite, a drag queen, homosexual etc. There have been alot of interesting compromises made in the last few days. We have gotten to a point where nowhere does it state that she was a woman, it only states that she lived as a woman. This is also important information, and the word "woman" comes after gay, transvestite and drag queen, so it seems like a strong compromise to me.

some of the quotes you have added are really useful, such as the one describing Johnson's struggles and threats faced upon being discovered while working as a prostitute. so many trans women die this way as you know. marsha expresses great sadness in the documentary about how hard life is as a "transvestite" sex worker, mostly because so many have lost their lives this way.. anyway i agree that the california section needs some citation. i put a note saying citation needed as it is obviously coming from a person with direct experience, and there are honestly so few real sources of info on marshas life. that is why we made the documentary to begin with, from the scraps of video that people had collected in the early 90s. but in the end the california section will need to be corroborated.Rebismusic (talk) 07:00, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

The California section won't be corroborated until someone writes a book simply on Marsha. It took years before someone wrote about what Marsha actually did during the Stonewall uprising and that wasn't throwing a brick or a shot glass but a heavy object into a cop car. As far as I know, the California information could be a violation of Wikipedia's rules of original research. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 00:01, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Stonewall contributions

Okay, somebody please stop erasing important information of what Marsha did at Stonewall that June night. Also, erasing the part where Johnson herself disputes the urban myths surrounding her contribution (saying she arrived at 2:00 in the morning, this is from an actual interview she took five years before her death) is not respecting what she did. To just write it as just "being one of the first to start clashing with the cops" without adding the information of what she did is not respecting her legacy. Please, stop erasing it. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 02:34, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. This person should be reported for repeatedly trying to delete this important and relevant information.Mileyboo3 (talk) 03:42, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Somebody please report the person who keeps imposing their own narrative on this page

There is this particular user who insists on erasing Johnson's gay identity, and impose the label "transgender" on Johnson despite Johnson never identified as such. That user keeps ignoring Johnson's own original words, takes Johnson's words out of context and impose their own interpretations. The user also keeps deleting paragraphs with well-cited sources. The user has been called out by many different editors (See edit history), yet keeps doing edit wars and revert the article back to their own version. I am new here so I do not know how to report this user. More experienced members, please report this user to keep the wikipedia page unbiased. Mileyboo3 (talk) 03:02, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

unfortunately that is not what is occurring. the page is full of references to Johnson as "gay". the opening line declares that she herself identified as a drag queen. the problem is your own resentment that she was also documented saying that she lived as a woman, which complicates her identity and requires a more complex representation of her life, one that shows Johnson in all her multifacetedness.Rebismusic (talk) 06:31, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately this is what's happening. Your long history deleting other editors' well cited paragraphs in Marsha's wiki page is the proof of this. Stop vandalising the page. You also falsely accused me of not engaging in talks while I did. Please refrain from making up lies. Thank you.Mileyboo3 (talk) 06:48, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

For the person who insists that transvestites fall into the transgender category according to Wikipedia standard

NO IT DOES NOT. Here are the sentences cited from the transgender Wikipedia page (the one you often direct people to when they argue that transvestite is not transgender), word by word (unless you edit that page to suit your own narrative again):

"Although some references define transgender very broadly to include transvestites / cross-dressers,[8] they are usually excluded, as are transvestic fetishists (because they are considered to be expressing a paraphilia rather than a gender identification) and drag kings and drag queens (who are performers and cross-dress for the purpose of entertaining)."

Wikipedia also does not include transvestites/drag queens/kings in "Transgender topics" categories. Stop using Wikipedia transgender page to support your argument. Your own argument is self-defeating: according to Wikipedia standard, you are wrong.Mileyboo3 (talk) 04:18, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

For the person who insists that transvestites do not fall into the transgender category according to Wikipedia standard

YES IT DOES! dear Mileyboo3. thankyou for your passionate response. the complete entry reads as follows

Transgender people are people who have a gender identity or gender expression that differs from their assigned sex.[1][2][3] Transgender people are sometimes called transsexual if they desire medical assistance to transition from one sex to another. Transgender is also an umbrella term: in addition to including people whose gender identity is the opposite of their assigned sex (trans men and trans women), it may include people who are not exclusively masculine or feminine (people who are genderqueer, e.g. bigender, pangender, genderfluid, or agender).[2][4][5] Other definitions of transgender also include people who belong to a third gender, or conceptualize transgender people as a third gender.[6][7] Infrequently, the term transgender is defined very broadly to include cross-dressers,[8] regardless of their gender identity.

Funnily enough, the part of the definition that you are relying on is the only part that has no reference and should be excluded, ie: "they are usually excluded, as are transvestic fetishists (because they are considered to be expressing a paraphilia rather than a gender identification) and drag kings and drag queens (who are performers and cross-dress for the purpose of entertaining)". Rebismusic (talk) 06:26, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Funny how you cite the wikipedia page yourself but fail to read the keyword:

Infrequently, the term transgender is defined very broadly to include cross-dressers,[8] regardless of their gender identity.

Thanks for proving my point that it's not professional to include drag queens in transgender category. Now if you can just stop the name calling and stop referring to everyone who wishes to maintain Wikipedia's unbiasedness a transphobe. How would you feel if I call you a homophobe since you keep deleting Johnson's gay identity, which she consistently refer to himself in her own words, in the summary paragraph?Mileyboo3 (talk) 06:44, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Infrequently does not mean the same thing as never. Johnson infrequently conforms to contemporary definitions of drag queen, transvestite, and homosexual, if ever.Rebismusic (talk) 07:08, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Marsha P. Johnson saw herself as gay. That was one of the final things she mentioned prior to her death. The definition of transgender when it comes to Marsha didn't mean transitioning (though she did consider such at one time, which can't be disputed). For her, it meant she can transitioned from one gender to another without changing anything. So technically Marsha would be considered androgynous or gender non conforming. In the transgender article, many transgender people would describe themselves as gay or bisexual or straight. In Marsha's case, she never stopped identifying as gay. And to say she did would take away from her words. Yeah, Randy Wicker might've called her transgender (and he's probably one of the reasons many in the media insist on calling her transgender) but Marsha herself never really change her identity or her orientation. She always was consistent in referring to herself as a gay transvestite and drag queen. And in some circles, "transgender" can be considered an umbrella term to describe any person who deviates from the gender norm. If Marsha had transitioned for real, she would either be a transsexual, which many don't use anymore. That was the word used in those days. I can't compare her to Christine Jourgensen, who was actually a transgender woman. And about Sylvia, it can be argued she can be confirmed as a trans woman. It's not so clear with Marsha though since she never said she wasn't gay anymore, she always insisted she was. So technically, she wouldn't fall into the transgender definition. How can Marsha identify as gay and yet folks still misgender her as transgender? It's not respecting what she was as a person. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 17:22, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Vandalism warning

Rebismusic, please refraining from deleting other people's well cited paragraphs. Your contribution history has a long history of deleting other people's contributions and revert it back to your favourite version. This is considered edit warring or sometimes vandalism.

You also tend to use your own original theory to justify your deletions of other people's contribution. You have refuted professional historian's account and you have refuted documented reports' validity, and instead impose your person interpretation on the topic. Some of your reasoning for edits are plain homophobic. For instance, you call the paragraphs cited from David Carter, renowned Stonewall historian and an authority on this topic, "the opinion of one gay man". In another revision history by you, you devalued another editor's contribution, citing the following reasons, "you are most likely a gay man. its ironic that you probably think you are her ally." It is unprofessional, and borderline discriminatory and harassing for you to judge other people's validity by your assumed sexual orientation of them.

You also fabricated lies. In the reasons you wrote in one revision history, you accused me of "won't engage in talk pages", while I already posted two subjects on this talk page prior to that comment. You added "girlie" as Johnson's gender identity, but the word "girlie" is nowhere to be found from the source you cited. I deleted the word, but you immediately restored it back without giving any evidence.

Since you once used Wikipedia "transgender" page to support your reasoning of inclusion of transvestites into the transgender category, I posted on this talk page the exact sentences from Wikipedia "transgender" page to refute your claim. As a result, you immediately deleted the sentences I cited, from the Wikipedia "transgender" page. This is completely unprofessional, biased, and intentionally disruptive. It's fortunate that the contents you deleted on the "transgender" wiki page was restored by Kaldari, an self-described employee of Wikimedia Foundation and a regular Wikipedia editor.

Please refrain from imposing your own theory on this Wiki page. Please refrain from constantly deleting other contributors' well cited sentences. Thank you. Mileyboo3 (talk) 19:41, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't know what's behind Rebis' motivation to constantly edit. One excuse they gave was they were editor of the Marsha documentary and when I called out that no one except for columnist Michael Musto mentioned that she was transgender, she had to bring up another video to prove her point. Also, you're absolutely right about her not saying "girlie" in the documentary despite Rebis' assumption she did. Only time she mentioned "woman" in relation to her was when she mentioned that she lived as one (as opposed to being one) when she became a drag queen, which would definitely fit the definition of the now oft-controversial word transvestite, which describes a guy dressing in woman's clothes to live as a woman. That's it. That's why STAR was originally named Street Transvestites Action Revolutionaries. Only later and much later after Marsha's death did the word "transgender" become a popular term and even then it doesn't describe Marsha. She was not a transgender woman, she said clearly she was a boy and that she was gay. I just wish they get the message that editing and deleting researched sources doesn't help their cause. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 20:11, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Vandalism warning

Mileyboo, please refraining from deleting other people's well cited paragraphs. Your contribution history and BrothaTimothy's also has a long history of deleting other people's contributions and reverting it back to your favourite version. This is considered edit warring or sometimes vandalism.

You also tend to use your own original theory to justify your deletions of other people's contributions. You cite sources that pathologize transgenderism and represent it as a mental illness, claiming that because it was once written in print, it is a source of fact, despite the words being are plainly transphobic. It is unprofessional, and borderline discriminatory and harassing for you to refute so many people in the trans community who knew and celebrated Johnson, and recognize her as transgender. You refuse to acknowledge that there is a long history of discrimination against trans people within the gay community and recklessly quote transphobic sources even when they directly contradict the opinions of people who actually knew Johnson. You claim that you know better on the basis of your research than Johnson's best friends, claiming that even Randy WIcker is misguided in their perception of people that their shared homes with for a decade.

You frame quote with words to prove an agenda that Marsha was not transgender, filling the article with views that deny Marsha's complexity and true cltural identity.

Please refrain from imposing these censorial impulses on this Wiki page. Please refrain from constantly deleting other contributors' well cited sentences. Thank you. Rebismusic (talk) 22:05, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Please indicate the timestamp in the documentary where Johnson describes her gender as a "girlie". Otherwise, it is defamation that you accuse me of fabricating lies.Mileyboo3 (talk) 22:25, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Forgive me, You are correct that I was mistakenly including the world "girlie". it was not in that documentary. it is from another source, a video, that was not included in Pay it No Mind that hasnt yet been published on youtube. I assisted one of Johnson's friends in the transfer of these videos before we began the process of making the documentary.Rebismusic (talk) 23:32, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Marsha P. Johnson's gay activism and sexual orientation

I've noticed that whenever someone edits the article, they always make sure to make it seem like Marsha was only a transgender rights activist, when that wasn't the case at all. When she started her activism, she was advocating for gay rights and gay liberation. She joined the Gay Liberation Front and the Gay Activists Alliance. It was only later did her trans activism come to light, with the formation of Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries, which was actually a subset of the Gay Liberation Front, rather than its own organization. The house supported gay runaways, street drag queens and transgender women (not sure about trans men). But in that interview she took in 1992, Marsha talked about gay rights. She shouted "I want my gay rights" at a rally in the early '70s. And also to bring it up, why edits keep referring to her as transgender, if she was transgender, that wouldn't have made her a gay person anymore, it would've made her a straight woman. And that takes away from her contributions as a gay activist (not just a gay rights activist, which can include straight people, but as a gay activist, meaning an activist who is gay), she was fighting for people who were like her and even those who wanted to appear more masculine. She was what you call a radical gay rights activist. Even when mentioning STAR in the same interview, she always said "drag queens" and when mentioning Rivera, she called her a transvestite, not a trans woman. I'm sorry but this revisionism is driving me (and a few other people) crazy. Taking away quotes from actual cited sources is not helping the matter. Wikipedia always stresses that claims should be sourced and constantly erasing them to add original research goes against the rules. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 20:31, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Not sure what you are you talking about. the first line of the bio states that she was a gay liberation activist. you seem oblivious to the fact that you have already deleted every direct reference to Marsha as transgender out of the article. We are only using first person quotes now.. You say her activism as a trans person only surfaced "later", but Johnson fought alongside trans people at Stonewall and founded STAR within 2 years of those uprisings. Yes she said she was gay. In those days, Trans people considered themselves a part of the gay community. They were the front line of it, the first ones to be raped and killed. But within a couple of years they were blocked from walking in the parade by gay men and lesbians who were offended by Johnson's presence. Transphobia has been a sickening thread through the last 45 years of the LGBT civil rights movement Please allow for Marsha's gender diversity to be discussed as a part of the gay community. The definitions of transsexuals and transitioning that you mention are misinformed, as are the assertions that transvestites or gender nonconforming people aren't transgender. Please reconsider. Rebismusic (talk) 22:13, 8 July 2017 (UTC)