Talk:International Art Museum of America

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Why H.H. Dorje Chang Buddha III doesn't have a wiki page?

He is quite talented, owns two museums. Isn't he notable enough to have a wiki page? Yurivict (talk) 06:31, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

What kind of encyclopedia would this be if we gave every small time personality cult leader their own page? MrEricSir (talk) 03:58, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

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H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III is not a self-claimed Buddha

According to H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III, A Treasury of True Buddha-Dharm, [1] the publishers (World Buddhism Publishing LLC and World Dharma Voice, Inc.) distributed some of the initial manuscripts of the book in 2006. After reading the initial manuscript, great dharma kings and rinpoches in the world practiced dharma and recognized Master Wan Ko Yee (the name of H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III prior to recognition) as the third reincarnation of Dorje Chang Buddha. On 7 September 2007, during the 110th Congress, the late chairman of the House Committee on International Relations Thomas Lantos invited his colleagues to pay tribute to Master Wan Ko Yee who had been recognized by world-renowned Buddhist masters as Dorje Chang Buddha III. [2] This is the earliest public record (that I can find) which mentions the title Dorje Chang Buddha III.

Copies of the book were presented to the Library of Congress by the International Buddhism Sangha Association in April 2008. [3] It was after this event that the public started to know that the incarnation of Dorje Chang Buddha had been recognized. The U.S. Congress formally addressed Dorje Chang Buddha III as H.H. Dorje Chang Buddha III in Senate Resolution No. 614. [4] Meanwhile, "Dorje Chang Buddha III" is a statutory name, according to the Office of H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III. [5]

The above evidence shows that H.H. Dorje Chang Buddha III is a recognized Buddha. By contrast, the LAist article [6] just said "a Pasadena man who claims to be the reincarnation of Buddha" without giving further details about when, where, under which circumstances H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III claimed to be a Buddha before the recognition. I welcome any challenge to the evidence that I presented as well as any evidence that supports the LAist article. Sleepy Beauty (talk) 13:04, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia prefers secondary sources that are independent of the subject - i.e. not by Yi or his followers. This book (reputable academic book) says that he "claims to be" Vajradhara. https://books.google.com/books?id=F0XNX3N1a2AC&pg=PA571 NPalgan2 (talk) 14:00, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

• I checked out the book you mentioned. It is a collection of about 80 articles on Esoteric Buddhism. Only in the last paragraph of the article No. 55 (authored by David Gray) has a mention of H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III. David Gray says H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III "claims to be" Vajradhara and the claim is made in the book H.H. Dorje Chang Buddha III: A Treasury of True Buddha Dharma (abbreviated as Buddha Dharma in the following).
• However, according to the Congressional Record dated 29 September 2008, "Buddha Dharma is a book that contains testimonies and affirmations through written proclamations." [7] The recognitions and corroborations [part of testimonies and affirmations] are made by dharma kings and rinpoches from various Buddhist sects, who are independent of H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III and his followers. These recognition and corroboration letters are primary sources. Publishers made these letters public in the book Buddha Dharma [8] (recognitions start from page 42). Thus, the "Category 1 Recognitions and Congratulations" of the book Buddha Dharma is a secondary source.
• In the Congressional Record dated 7 September 2007, congressman Thomas Lantos made the remark that Master Wan Ko Yee had been recognized by "world-renowned Buddhist masters as Dorje Chang Buddha III"; [9] this remark is another testimony to the recognition of H.H. Dorje Chang Buddha III. Please note: this remark was made before the book Buddha Dharma was published in 2008.
• I saw you modified the article International Art Museum of America recently [10], changing "an artist who claims to be a reincarnation of Buddha" to "an artist who is considered to be a reincarnation of Buddha by his followers". Following your logic, do you consider congressman Thomas Lantos as a follower of H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III as well? Sleepy Beauty (talk) 23:28, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

The Congressional Record is a record of things put into the Congressional Record by members of Congress, sometimes because of speeches made on the the floor of their house, but more often just by getting permission to put the material in the Record. It is not reliable source for anything except for the content of the Congressional Record. It is not even a reliable source for the opinions of the members of Congress who put the information in the Record, because they frequently do so at the request of their constituents. Thus, we cannot use the Congressional Record as a reliable source for this issue.

The book the NPalgan2 cited is, however, a reliable secondary source, and is pretty usable for this article. Books which are collections of primary sources, on the other hand, are not secondary sources, they are simply collections of primary sources. What makes a secondary source is the interpretation and analysis of primary sources by independednt subject experts.

In short, your attempt to whitewash this article, which I assume is being made on behalf of H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III, is not going to fly, anymore than the previous WP:COI and WP:POV editing on this article did. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:53, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

My friend, a secondary source does not need to be independent (WP:NOR). Also, could you please point me to the Wikipedia policies that require secondary sources be produced by experts?

"[A secondary source] contains an author's analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources." However, in the book cited by NPalgan2, David Gray made a subjective conclusion on what he thought the book Buddha Dharma was about in a few sentences, without any decent analysis or evaluation that supported his conclusion.

On the other hand, primary sources can be used to "make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary sources." Have you read any of those recognition letters (starting from page 42) in the book Buddha Dharma? Sleepy Beauty (talk) 06:07, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

I am not "your friend", and your changes are not going into the article, so you may as well stop. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:05, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

• Mr. Ken, You had reverted my initial edit; I came to this talk page to discuss my sources base on your request. But now you are asking me to stop? This is the article talk page, not your user talk page.
• Let me redraw attention to the points that I have made earlier. First, which analysis in this book do you think that David Gray had made to support his conclusion that H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III is self-claimed? Second, which primary source in the book Buddha Dharma do you think shows that H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III is self-claimed instead of being recognized? Sleepy Beauty (talk) 23:47, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
• Any edits you make not supported by reliable secondary sources will be deleted. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:24, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree that edits not supported by reliable sources shall be deleted. I want to emphasize that secondary sources are built upon facts, evidence, concepts and ideas taken from primary sources.

However, I do not agree that the Congressional Record is only a reliable source for the content of the Congressional Record. There have been several Wikipedia articles that use Congressional Record as their sources. In addition, Resolutions can be used as reliable references for straightforward, descriptive statements about what Resolutions say. But thank you very much for your opinions. Sleepy Beauty (talk) 00:46, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

And I want to emphasize that I've been here for 13 years and have made 250,000 edits, so I actually do know what a secondary source is, and your arguments are not going to prevail. That collection of primary sources is still a primary source, it is not a secondary source.

@NPalgan2: you have changed the content of this article while the discussion was going on, without presenting a secondary source that supports the statement "... considered to be a reincarnation of Buddha by his followers". Even before you changed it, the LAist article lacked primary sources supporting that H. H. Dorje Chang Buddha III was a self-claimed Buddha. Sleepy Beauty (talk) 00:46, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

So it turns out that you have no real idea what kinds of sources are usable on Wikipedia. You're just rolling around, pushing your POV any way you can. Ain't gonna work. Give it a try. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:23, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

This is not a Tower Defense game. The purpose of discussion is to communicate different opinions and find common ground. My intention was not to add certain content or promote certain ideas; but rather, non-evidence-based statements in sources shall not be stated as facts. As I have said before, the statement about "self-claimed Buddha" is not evidence-based, while the statement about "considered as a Buddha by followers" is not supported by sources.

Now that you cannot answer my questions about the verifiability of a particular statement in the sources and that we do not have a consensus, I suggest the article be restored to this version where there was no disputed content. What do you think? Sleepy Beauty (talk) 03:25, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Mostly, I think that "talking" with you is worthless, and that I will delete anything you add to the article based on your mistaken understanding of what sources are acceptable on Wikipedia. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:54, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Commentary regarding the supposed reincarnation of 'the primordial Buddha' is off-topic for this article, regardless of its sourcing.

This is (or purports to be) an article about an art museum. As such, claims regarding the supposed reincarnation of one of the artists who's works are included in the museum are entirely off-topic. And this will remain true regardless of how such claims are sourced. I suggest that those advocating the inclusion of this material read Wikipedia:Coatrack articles, and forget about trying to misuse this article as a platform for material which doesn't belong here. It might be wise instead to find further third-party sources to demonstrate the the museum itself meets Wikipedia notability guidelines, because frankly that appears somewhat questionable. I have my doubts as to whether the article as it stands (minus the irrelevances) would survive a Wikipedia:Articles for deletion discussion. 2A00:23C1:8250:6F01:403A:2FB7:2915:8DBB (talk) 06:23, 21 May 2018 (UTC)