Talk:Isaaq genocide: Difference between revisions
m Cordless Larry moved page Talk:Siad Barre's anti-Isaaq campaign to Talk:Isaaq genocide over redirect: Bold page move has been contested and now requires discussion |
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Since this article is about all of northwestern Somalia, rather than [[Hargeisa]], "hargeisa" within the lede sentence would violate [[MOS:LEADSENTENCE]]. [[User:Thylacoop5|Thylacoop5]] ([[User talk:Thylacoop5|talk]]) 12:51, 26 May 2018 (UTC) |
Since this article is about all of northwestern Somalia, rather than [[Hargeisa]], "hargeisa" within the lede sentence would violate [[MOS:LEADSENTENCE]]. [[User:Thylacoop5|Thylacoop5]] ([[User talk:Thylacoop5|talk]]) 12:51, 26 May 2018 (UTC) |
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== RfC about article title == |
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{{rfc|hist}} |
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There have been several suggestions for a change of title for this article that have proved inconclusive. Therefore I have the following suggestions: |
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* (a) "Anti-Isaaq campaign" / "anti-Isaaq campaign (1988-1991)" |
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* (b) "Isaaq genocide" (current title) |
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* (c) "Mass killings of the Isaaq (1988-1991)" |
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* (d) "Massacre of Isaaq (1988-1991)" |
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* (e) "Isaaq massacres of 1988-1991"/"Isaaq massacres (1988-1991)" |
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* (f) Another title |
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Please indicate (with a rationale) whether you support or oppose a title. [[User:Thylacoop5|Thylacoop5]] ([[User talk:Thylacoop5|talk]]) 17:02, 26 May 2018 (UTC) |
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===Option A: "Anti-Isaaq campaign" / "anti-Isaaq campaign (1988-1991)"=== |
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===Option B: "Isaaq genocide" (current title)=== |
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===Option C: "Mass killings of the Isaaq (1988-1991)"=== |
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===Option D: "Massacre of Isaaq (1988-1991)"=== |
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===Option E: "Isaaq massacres of 1988-1991"/"Isaaq massacres (1988-1991)"=== |
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===Option F: Another title=== |
Revision as of 17:02, 26 May 2018
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AfD discussion
- Note that the following discussion was moved here from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaaq Genocide, which was not listed properly. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:41, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
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SUPPORT - As shown in this quote, the Isaaq weren't the only clan involved: "Government atrocities inflicted on the Hawiye were considered comparable in scale to those against the Majeerteen and Isaaq". In addition, very few individuals classify these events as a whole as a genocide, let alone the Isaaq clan solely. Nor is there any cultural, national, racial, religious, etc. differences between them and other clans as they are all ethnic Somalis. [1]. Those differences are what legally defines a genocide.[2]. In addition, the majority of the events already mentioned and those of other clans are current present on the Somali Rebellion article. After reviewing this users past edits, such as: continuously removing its territorial dispute with neighboring region Puntland in favor of Somaliland (see here, here, here, here, here, and here), changing the map of Somaliland to present it as separate nation (see here, here, and here), removing the disputed Khatumo State (see here), and changing Somalia's map to present its dispute with its Somaliland region as if it had some form of international recognition (see here, here, and here), this article seems to be further WP:PROPAGANDA. Due to the reasons mentioned this article should be deleted. AcidSnow (talk) 05:40, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
Keep - Note: I am the author of the Wiki article. The article describes the systematic, state sponsored campaign conducted by Siad Barre and the Somali state against the Isaaq. It was a specific campaign against a specific target, in this case against Isaaq civillians. The article meets all of Wikipedia's guidelines on notability, I was frankly surprised not to find a stand alone article for the subject, given its widespread discussion both academically, officially (by various international organisations) and in international media. To that point please allow me to quote from various official and academic sources to illustrate my point and prove the article is notable, neutral WP:NPOV, verifiable WP:V and indeed not WP:NOR and thus abides by the principal core content policies of Wikipedia. I hope this will comprehensively clear the issue. (Please note, emphasis mine): Selection of references of the Isaaq Genocide in official reports:1- Report commissioned by the United Nations, comprised of the findings of a human rights investigator recruited by the United Nations to find out if crimes of international jurisdiction (i.e. war crimes, crimes against humanity or genocide had been perpetrated in Somaliland.
2- Report by the Africa Watch Committee, a branch of Human Rights Watch:
3- World Bank:
Selection of references of the Isaaq Genocide in academic works:
Further academic sources below, I understand I have quoted at length above so I will try to keep the rest as brief as possible, full citation and links where possible are added: 5-6-
7- Furthermore, in the Encyclopedia of Genocide, edited by genocide scholar Israel Charny (executive director of the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem ), the only named group from Somalia in two published tables in that book are the Isaaq. First table is titled "Minorities Victimized by Discrimination, Ethnic Warfare, Repression, and Genocide 1980-1997" only lists the Isaaqs from Somalia. In fact, they are one of only three named groups from Africa that are designated 'Geno/Pol' in that table. The other two groups designated 'Geno/Pol' in that table are the Tutsi of Rwanda for the period of 1993-1994 (you can read on Rwandan genocide here, and from the Sudan (now South Sudan) the Dinka, Nuba and Shilluk. The description of Geno/Pol at the bottom of the table states (emphasis mine): Geno/Pol: The group was the target of deliberate, sustained policies aimed at its collective destruction. (p.270)
Selection of references of the Isaaq Genocide in reputable international mediaBelow I am presenting coverage by international media as close to the dates of the Isaaq Genocide as possible, this is to confirm that it was a notable incident and discussed widely in the international media at the time as it was taking place. 8- This issue of Reporting by Survival International News, dated 1988 is especially valuable because it records the reporting on the genocide, by international media, in doing so it gives an idea of how the genocide was reported at the time, early on the campaign against the Isaaq:
10- The Washington Post (1990): In Somalia, the Isaaq clan is the target of government genocide. The Isaaq-based Somali National Movement (SNM), an insurgency group headquartered in Ethiopia for years, invaded Somalia in mid-1988 and now controls a large part of the north. The government's response has been brutal. An aerial bombing campaign devastated large sections of the cities and productive areas in the north. Wells have been poisoned, villages have been burned and Isaaq civilians have been rounded up and executed by government troops. President Barre has also supplied weapons to Ethiopian refugees inside Somalia and to opposition Ethiopian groups to attack Isaaq civilians. Africa Watch estimates that 50,000 Somali citizens have been killed during the past year and a half, the majority being Isaaq civilians. Link
Investigating genocide in Somaliland
People and Power meets a community coming to terms with the horrors of the past and joins forces with a group of forensic investigators and human rights activists attempting to bring an alleged war criminal, Yusuf Abdi Ali, also known as Colonel Tukeh, to account. Link to video.
12- Genocide Watch:
For the purposes of this Mass Atrocities Alert, Genocide Watch sees the following warning signs of genocide and atrocities being committed against the civilian population of Somalia: Prior unpunished genocidal massacres, such as those perpetrated by the Barre regime, primarily against the Isaaq clan, in the late 1980s. Source
The plethora of discussions on the subject attest to its notability. This is an important subject that features prominently in the scholarship about the civil war in the former Somali state and specifically pertaining to the period between 1988-1990. There are many more reports and academic works and documentaries that deal with the subject of Isaaq genocide, the list above is a small sample. I hope one can now clearly see the claim by the initiator of this deletion request that very few individuals classify these events as whole as genocide is incorrect. I cite the specific use of the word genocide in the United Nations' commissioned report (above, point 1), also used academically by Bloxham and Dirk Moses (The Oxford Handbook of Genocide Studies, point 4, above), by Barrington (point 6, if loosely), in the Encyclopedia of Genocide, notably as the single case from Somalia included and one of three from all of Africa (see point 7 please), and in reputable international media, like Survival International (point 8), by both The Guardian (point 9), and The Washington Post (point 10) as well as the title of an Aljazeera article (point 11a) as well as a documentary (point 11b) and finally on Genocide Watch (point 12). Thus I conclude that the use of the word genocide is appropriate for the page. The above demonstrates that the topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, and I hope, like me, you see that it is suitable for a stand-alone article WP:GNG. I also hope the use of 'people' in relation to Isaaq is fair. Similar usage of 'Isaaq People' is found in both the UN report (point 1) and in 'Comprehending and Mastering African Conflicts: The Search for Sustainable Peace and Good Governance' (point 9), I can provide further academic examples if needed. Please note that the initiator of this deletion request has been waging an ongoing edit war both on the subject article of this request and other pages too. They have been the one causing vandalism in their deletion of this article (via redirection) see here. This is very disruptive and I have mentioned that much to them in the notes of my edits. The article is well sourced, notable and neutral, there is absolutely no merit to blanking it by putting a redirection on. That is vandalism. This request for deletion does not make sense. It seems to me, and this is unfortunate, that the initiator of the deletion request harbors negative sentiment against Isaaqs. There is no other reason to request deletion of a well sourced article that deals with such an important subject. So important in fact that the air-bombardment and use of military force against civilians in Hargeisa it is the subject of a war monument erected in the middle of the capital city of Somaliland, Hargeisa, the same city that was levelled by the Somali army and airforce. The arial bombardment of Hargeisa by the Somali Airforce is a very painful and recent memory to many survivors of the genocide and their families. I hope the quotes above conveys the sheer scale of this atrocity. As for what has been said about my other edits, I am very happy to discuss my edits in the specific articles' talk pages. On their claims of my editing of the dispute page of Somaliland and Puntland. I have updated the article to reflect the realities on the ground as of end of 2016 and beginning of 2017. The page was outdated. The facts are that Somaliland controls every single capital of all the regions it claims. I will be more than happy to provide evidece for this, the editor is relying on non-Somalis' ignorance of the situation on the ground, or perhaps a better way to phrase it is the lack of English language reputable sources the report on the issue. It is true that there are opposing organisations under names like SSC (now defunct) and Khaatumo (very little support from locals, almost no resources), but these organisation exist in name only and are far from being governments and/or real actors on the ground. In fact, Khatumo itself acknowledges that Somaliland controls the capital of Sool region, I can provide video recordings of the president of this organisation, mr. Ali Galaydh himself admitting that they have no control over these territories. Furthermore, Somaliland is currently in talks with Khaatumo, again, in these talks the leaders of Khaatumo admit Somaliland's control of the capital of Sool region (Laascanood). Puntland's claim is in name only too, this may not have been the case prior to 2007, but it is now. I am happy to provide extensive evidence in the talk page of that article. As for the changing of Somalia map. That too is to reflect the realities on the ground, and it is in line with precedent set by other Wikipedia articles. Please see the landing maps of Morocco, India, Pakistan and many other countries where the landing map clearly indicates parts that the country claims but does not control. I tried to keep it to the same neutral colours used in the maps of aforementioned countries, light green and dark green. I am happy to discuss this in detail in that article's talk page. Due to the above reasons, I hope you can see that the article is notable, neutral WP:NPOV,verifiable WP:V and not WP:NOR and thus abides by the principal core content policies of Wikipedia. I do not understand why it is marked for deletion, that is wrong and disrespectful to the victims of the genocide. I have noticed that much of the content the editor initiating this request works on, or is involved in edit wars over, are slanted against certain Somali groups namely the Isaaq, as is the case for this bizarre delete request, that much is clear. Kzl55 (talk) 02:36, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
SUPPORT - I'm sorry but I'm going to have to agree with Acidsnow and Soupforone for the following reasons: (1) The page might give off the impression that the Isaaq clan was somehow "special" during this period in Somalia's recent history which is not the case:
Other clans suffered atrocities, were targeted by the government and there were even "extermination" measures of sorts enacted against them, the Isaaq clan was not unique in all this. Barre and his regime were simply acting like a dictatorial regime normally does when there is insurrection in their midst rather than despising Isaaqs simply for being Isaaqs and seeking to annihilate every last one of them as a result. Instead, Barre and his regime were simply reacting cruelly to the formation of the "Somali National Movement" (SNM) which,like other Somali rebel militias of the civil-war period, had its "base" in a particular clan (in this case; the Isaaq clan) whom Barre associated with the militia and ordered attacks against as a result. Unless this page is edited to be about "genocide" among several clans (i.e. with a title such as "Genocide of Somali clans" or something along those lines); it should not be kept, in my opinion. Again, because the Isaaq are not truly unique in this. However, a page with the edited title I mentioned would be totally redundant (as is this "Isaaq Genocide" page) for reasons Acidsnow mentioned since pages like the "Somali Rebellion" page (see here) do mention the atrocities suffered by various Somali clans during this period in recent Somali history. The creator of this page would be better served simply adding text and sources to pages such as the "Somali rebellion" page and leaving it at that (in fact, I welcome adding text to those pages that argues what the Isaaq suffered was a "genocide"). I see no reason why the Isaaq clan in particular deserves some sort of page of its own unless other clans are also to be given a similar page which is unnecessary for reasons mentioned prior. (2) Acidsnow and Soupforone have a point about the somewhat hyperbolic nature of the article's subject and the fact that the creator's editing history (as pointed out by Acidsnow) seems to point to a bias toward pro-"Somaliland" politics (which often requires fostering & nurturing grievances toward "Somalia") and this thus presents a possible case of WP:PROPAGANDA. There are sources which ultimately do not entertain the idea that what happened to the Isaaq clan (or even the Majeerteen clan) was truly classifiable as "genocide" (see here, for instance) and just adopting this title outright because some sources imply or lean towards the opposite makes this article, in my opinion, act against WP:NEUTRAL-POINT-OF-VIEW as it outright picks a side. A better set-up for it not to seem like a propaganda page would've been for it to be titled "Atrocities enacted against the Isaaq during the Somali Civil-War" and then have a section where both "pro-genocide labeling" and "anti-genocide labeling" sources are shared whilst, if possible, sharing why both sides are for or against the labeling. But this is totally pointless as stated earlier as this can just be more shortly done in pages like the "Somali Rebellion" page. (3) This does, partly, smell like a WP:NO-ORIGINAL-RESEARCH breach as well. The page creator's sources look as though they're just being used to weave a narrative that Isaaqs were perhaps specially gencodided when many (not all) of the page creator's sources do is point out the obvious which is that Isaaqs were targeted, the government was at war with them and that they (the Isaaqs) suffered greatly-:
-and yes; other Somali clans, like the Majeerteen, were targeted, the government was at war with them and they suffered greatly. And, as even one of my own sources points out, it can possibly be argued that a "genocide" of sorts was enacted against other clans such as the Majeerteen as well. None of this, however, outright proves a "genocide" but really just that a dictatorial regime was enacting extreme violence against people it believed were rising up against it. Only sources that outright claim genocide are relevant, frankly. The ones that merely highlight atrocities are just being used to push the genocide viewpoint when they don't explicitly claim this was genocide, so this does partly look like Original-Research meant to support a certain viewpoint the page creator holds. Though this point among my 3 points, in my humble opinion, is the least pressing and relevant. _______ At any rate, another source even points out that things like "genocide", perhaps more appropriately termed "clan cleansing" as per the source, were arguably enacted against several clans by both state and non-state actors. So why are Isaaq clan members getting a page and not the others? Why is there not a page on the "clan cleansing" enacted against Darods in Mogadishu by militias during this same period in recent history? I say simply because such pages would be redundant (as well as misleading in acting as though one clan's suffering was of unique importance within this trouble period) and would only help serve the political agendas of "clanist" types within the Somali Peninsula. The atrocities suffered by various clans can be outlined in the "Somali Rebellion" or even "Somali Civil-War" page (or both) but anything more than that, in my humble opinion, is unnecessary. So yes, I support deleting this article. --Awale-Abdi (talk) 15:15, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
Note to admins. I was surprised by the quick succession of posts that support editor AcidSnow in his request to delete this article. I know (from just reading the articles, and by the lack of participation in other discussions) that the population of editors of Somali origin or interested in Somali subjects is not large on Wikipedia, so I checked the activities of editor AcidSnow and found that they have solicited the responses from both editor AlaskaLava [here] and editor Soupforone [here]. As I am new to Wikipedia, and assuming in WP:AGF that this was a normal practice, I went ahead and left a couple of messages for users that have edited Somali pages in the past. I have just read that this practice is forbidden WP:NOSOLICIT on Wikipedia:
This is particularly surprising as the editor AcidSnow has been active on Wikipedia since 2013! Would this be considered Meatpuppetry? Genuine question. With view of this passage:
And in light of the soliciting of views mentioned above, I hope the admin looks at the policy related points, I believe I satisfy all of them in the article and in my arguments for keeping the page, rather than simply the number of votes in support of deletion and the assumed consensus based on the three posts above. I shall delete the messages I left in talk pages now Kzl55 (talk) 08:23, 17 January 2017 (UTC) Note for Admins- Firstly, I'd like to address KzI55's accusations here which are truly deplorable. Neither I, nor Soupforone are "friends" of Acidsnow. In fact, Acidsnow and Soupforone have a history of disagreeing on various topics and arguing back and forth until a consensus was reached for days on end. I've had similar experiences with Soupforone and don't even know who AlaskaLava is, whilst Acidsnow in particular is nothing more than an acquaintance to me. Nevertheless, I do consider Soupforone and Acidsnow to be rather productive editors (despite disagreeing with them at times) but think little else of them beyond that. As for the accusation, I'd like to point out that I, in particular, quietly keep track of the goings-on of Somali-related topics and Kzl55 and this page's creation have been on my radar as a result, hence why I hastily interjected. You can check my talk page and you will notice that no one notified me of this page. It's also important to note that Acidsnow did not seemingly direct AlaskaLava or Soupforone toward any particular viewpoint but merely asked for their opinion on this topic. There was no puppetry here and both of the other editors shared valid reasons for why they support a deletion rather than merely posting something along the lines of "Yeah, I agree with Acidsnow!". At any rate, I agree with Acidsnow, Soupforone and Alaska simply because I do believe, for the reasons I've shared and they've shared, that this page should be deleted. If Kz does not like that more than one editor is disagreeing with him; this is a truly deplorable way of reacting to that. You seem to have a habit of conducting WP:PERSONAL-ATTACKS (i.e. trying to discredit other editors due to their affiliations or perceived affiliations), Kzl55. Stick to the topic (and things relevant to it) and little else would be my advice. --Awale-Abdi (talk) 15:06, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Now, I have no interest in some long and drawn out argument and will just re-iterate my points from before and partly, where I feel it is adequate, indirectly point to why I think Kzl55 has not sufficiently convinced me that they're invalid: (1) This page will mislead people into thinking what the Isaaq went through was somehow "special" among what other Somalis went through. Which is not remotely true. Ethnic Somali civilians of the Isaaq clan were mainly targeted because the violent dictatorial regime of the time associated them with the "Somali National Movement" (SNM) rebel militia which did, like all other Civil-War era rebel militias, have its "base" in a particular clan (in this case; the Isaaq clan) (see here). This is no different from how Majeerteens were brutalized because one of them lead a coup against Siad Barre or how Hawiyes were also brutalized by the state for various reasons like the formation of rebel militias among them. And the Isaaq are not at all the only groups who suffered what some may call a "genocide", "verging on genocide" or "genocide-like" under both state and non-state actors:
It is truly unnecessary to keep this page as a result because of the way it will mislead readers and because it will lead to more of such clanistic pages popping up ("Darod Genocide", "Rahanweyn Genocide" et al.) which is indeed totally unnecessary as all of these atrocities Somali subgroups suffered at the hands of their state and each other (AlaskaLava is quite correct, by the way, that the Isaaq clan led SNM attacked innocent Somali civilians of other clans) can simply be mentioned HERE where they were originally designated spots to begin with. This page will mislead, fuel clan politics among Somalis and waste space. (2) There is seemingly a bias on Kzl55's part here based on his editing history (shared by Acidsnow at the start of this page) where he displays obvious "Pro-Somaliland" views and an important component of many pro-Somaliland individuals' agenda is sowing discontent between Isaaq clan members and other Somalis by 1. Treating the Isaaq as a unique people within the Somali ethnic group 2. Focusing greatly on how they in particular suffered during times such as the heights of the civil war. This also serves in making the Isaaq in particular look like unique victims of the regime (and perhaps also other Somalis) which aids in discourse with foreigners when speaking on behalf of why "Somaliland" should be globally recognized as an independent state. This page, in my humble opinion, will most certainly serve as a piece of propaganda to such ends and, for those reasons as well as reasons the other editors have shared, will be a WP:PROPAGANDA breach as far as I'm concerned. (3) Going back to the WP:NO-ORIGINAL-RESEARCH & WP:NEUTRAL-POINT-OF-VIEW breach accusations I made... It is indeed quite troubling that many of Kzl55's/the page creator's earlier sources don't even call this a genocide but instead; them stating the obvious which is that Isaaq clan members were attacked is being used to support the few sources (1, 7, 10 and 12) that do actually seem to consider this a "genocide" whilst sources that do not consider this a genocide (i.e. the US State Department) or that refrain from referring to it as such (many of the page creator's own sources) are ignored or this fact is not mentioned about them. Why on Earth would this be done in any case that was not WP:ORIGINAL-RESEARCH or actually enjoyed WP:NEUTRAL-POINT-OF-VIEW? The author of the article would have simply shared the few sources that support the view and left it at that rather than, in an original research manner, try to back up the view of those few sources with other sources that merely state the Isaaq clan suffered atrocities, was targeted by the state and so on. This clearly points to an author who supports the "genocide" view rather than any opposing views or arguments (such as ones Soupforone and Acidsnow shared) that this was not in fact a "genocide" but was merely the work of a violent dictatorial regime assaulting a subset of its own people (the Somali people) the way it did with various other clans, regardless of the scope of the casualties, because it was reacting to what it saw as "rebellion". The page is also picking a side on whether or not this was some sort of "special genocide" within Somalia (compared to what other clans suffered) rather than neutrally being about the disgusting atrocities Somalis of the Isaaq clan suffered whilst stating that this could be considered a genocide and is seen as such by certain sources but that it is not recognized as such by various sources for so and so reasons. But such a neutrally worded page wouldn't even be necessary (as I've stated before) as we already have a place for mentioning the atrocities individual Somali clans suffered under the regime during the rebellion. ___ So yes, for the reasons above and the various reasons shared by the other 3 editors; I am supporting the deletion of this page. We're also just going to go in circles by turning this into an argument against each other's points... My advice for Kzl55 would be to simply list why he thinks this page should remain (he's already done this enough, I'd say) and leave it at that. There's no point in flustering the staff with miles upon miles of text. Thank you, --Awale-Abdi (talk) 15:06, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
AGAINST - This page should be kept , because it has all the criteria of a good valid wikipedia page see [8] and what a bout the Mohammad Ali Samatar lawsuit which was before his death and which is a big source for this page ,and should be used in this page [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] and to the Cordless Larry talk if you thought that acidsnow by calling for the helps of other editors like AlaskaLava [14] and that resulting in somehow 3 editors against 1 then you are wrong because a valid sourced page should not be deleted by the number of editors against it but by if it doesn't have the criteria or the source material .Bysomalilander (talk) 19:20, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
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The case to keep the article
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This article describes a very important subject to the region, what the users above have attempted was obfuscation the subject with references to other atrocities that the Siad Barre regime may have committed, making the baseless assumption that the perpetrator of human rights violations such as massacres and genocide would only target a single group, (the Nazis for instance persecuted both the Jews, and Roma people, one does not negate the other or make it less important) or that I ever made the claim that only a single group, namely the Isaaq, suffered under that regime. Or that somehow the suffering of Isaaq negates possible crimes committed against other groups. That is all false. What I have stated however, and this is backed up by multitude of distinguished authorities on African history and the vast majority of scholarship consensus in addition to official reports by the United Nations, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the World Bank among others that the Isaaq suffered a targeted, sustained, state-sponsered operation with the aim of total obliteration and genocide. To that end I have supported my argument with neutral sources and included some examples of international coverage. The article is thus notable, verifiable and neutral. I will answer one of the most recurring points of contention, I believe this is the base for the case the above users are making. That Isaaq were not especially targeted and/or that: "In addition, very few individuals classify these events as a whole as a genocide, let alone the Isaaq clan solely." This is absolutely false. The classification of this particular campaign against the Isaaq in both official reports and scholarship is very clear. Allow me to share a limited sample of the explicit use of the word genocide in reference to the Isaaq from reputable neutral and verifiable sources including the United Nations' report:
And also:
Collective clan-based violence against civilians always represents a violation of human rights. However, when its goal is to exterminate and expel large numbers of people based on their group identity alone, it becomes clan cleansing. '''No one''' has suggested this term for the collective brutalization of the people of Mudug [read Majerteen]. However, for the Northwest [read Isaaq], '''this and even stronger terms (such as genocide) are regularly used'''. The scale and character of the collective clan-based violence committed against Isaaq civilians - who, although they were not the only civilians brutalized by the government, '''were especially targeted''' - suggest that this dimension of state-violence in the Northwest indeed amounts to clan cleansing.
And:
And:
Note that as the author also discussed the Majerteen, they never used language as strong (as genocide) as they did in the case of Isaaq:
And about Siad Barre as a genocidal perpetrator:
Edited by genocide scholar Israel Charny (executive director of the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem ), the only named group from Somalia in two published tables in that book are the Isaaq. First table is titled "Minorities Victimized by Discrimination, Ethnic Warfare, Repression, and Genocide 1980-1997" only lists the Isaaqs from Somalia. In fact, they are one of only three named groups from Africa that are designated 'Geno/Pol' in that table. The other two groups designated 'Geno/Pol' in that table are the Tutsi of Rwanda for the period of 1993-1994 (you can read on Rwandan genocide here, and from the Sudan (now South Sudan) the Dinka, Nuba and Shilluk. The description of Geno/Pol at the bottom of the table states (emphasis mine): Geno/Pol: The group was the target of deliberate, sustained policies aimed at its collective destruction. (p.270) The second table which covers earlier genocides than 1980 (that the previous table covered), under the heading "Indigenous Populations, Genocide of" and is titled "Some Cases of Genocides of indigenous Peoples", again has only one group mentioned from Somalia, the Isaaq. (p.350)
For the purposes of this Mass Atrocities Alert, Genocide Watch sees the following warning signs of genocide and atrocities being committed against the civilian population of Somalia: Prior unpunished genocidal massacres, such as those perpetrated by the Barre regime, primarily against the Isaaq clan, in the late 1980s. Source
And also:
In the table 3.1 titled: Genocides of Indigenous Peoples in the Twentieth Century, the only group to be named from Somalia are the Isaaq with the dates 1988-1989. [38] Also in discussing Isaaq genocide among other well known incidents of genocide like Herero and Namaqua genocide and Guatemalan genocide :
[In reference to British-made Hawker Hunter fighter aircraft Siad Barre obtained from Kuwait]: Under the heading 'The destruction of the North' [read Isaaq], and in discussing the situation pertaining to Isaaq: Further elaboration on strafing of Isaaq refugees mentioned:
The only case of a targeted collective punishment of a named group from Somalia recorded in 'Counter-guerrilla Mass Killings in the Twentieth Century' table, under the 'ethnic motives' column is the case of Isaaq, no other group is named from Somalia. [43]
And: And: The Observer of Sunday 3 July 1988, wrote: Also: And:
And:
And with reference to US court precedent against the prime minister of Siad Barre:
In Somalia, the Isaaq clan is the target of government genocide. The Isaaq-based Somali National Movement (SNM), an insurgency group headquartered in Ethiopia for years, invaded Somalia in mid-1988 and now controls a large part of the north. [49]
Please also read:
Below are some examples of neutral, non-Somali eye-witness accounts and reports, they are all very reputable, including the venerable I. M. Lewis the premier professor of Somali studies:
I will stop here. As you can see the list is exhaustive, the scholarly consensus is clear. There are so many more sources that deal with the subject with such clarity, I am happy to add more. I hope the above clarifies that the bizarre claim that "very few individuals classify these events as a whole as a genocide" or that 'what happened to the Isaaq is not unique enough to warrant a page' or "this is original research" or any of the, frankly absurd, claims we saw in this discussion are well and truly false. The deletion process clearly states:
This article describes Isaaq genocide an event that is:
And thus abides by the principal core content policies of Wikipedia. Further to this, the case against the article has employed highly inappropriate practices including vandalism in their deletion of this article (via redirection) see here and WP:CANVAS as highlighted By initiator of the request soliciting of both editor AlaskaLava [here] and editor Soupforone [here], with editor Awale Abdi self-identifying as an acquaintance. All of the users that were solicited, just happened to support editor AcidSnow. I hope this will comprehensively clear the issue.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kzl55 (talk • contribs) 14:18, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
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- The article is not currently nominated for deletion, Kzl55. I have collapsed your wall of text. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:40, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- I see, my post was in defence of the article with reputable scholarly sourcing. Many thanks for your help.Kzl55 (talk) 18:15, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- Speaking of which, Kzl55, could you complete the citations, such as Møller, which are incomplete? Cordless Larry (talk) 19:09, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- Will do, I am sorry about that, it was my first use of the platform so did not know how to insert citation fully on Wikipedia. If there is one positive thing to have come out of this discussion, I now know how to fully cite to specific page-links on Wikipedia. I plan on replacing all the text citations with links for easier viewing. If you have any other input pease share it would be appreciated. Kzl55 (talk) 19:31, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- Speaking of which, Kzl55, could you complete the citations, such as Møller, which are incomplete? Cordless Larry (talk) 19:09, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- I see, my post was in defence of the article with reputable scholarly sourcing. Many thanks for your help.Kzl55 (talk) 18:15, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
@Kzl55:, @Cordless Larry:, others: I have not reviewed the wall of text above. For now, I suggest the following to the editors active on this article...
- Quote: This article theorizes both the causes and the consequences of the state-sponsored genocidal campaigns leveled at the Isaaq clan-group, which can be considered as a case of a “forgotten genocide.”[1]
- Quote: Barre shrewdly channeled the subsequent frustration and anger into an internal quasi-genocide directed against scapegoat clans such as the Isaaq.[2]
- Quote: "...escalated into genocidal onslaught against the Isaaq clan family"[3]
- Quote: "It may be possible to translate the subjective identification of groups from the context of genocide to our discussion of national self-determination for peoples. The inhabitants of Somaliland, ethnic Somalis overwhelmingly of the Isaaq clan, were singled out by the former regime for persecution because of their clan affiliation.".[4]
- Etc.
References
- ^ Ingiriis, Mohamed Haji (2016). ""We Swallowed the State as the State Swallowed Us": The Genesis, Genealogies, and Geographies of Genocides in Somalia". African Security. 9 (3). Taylor & Francis: 237–258. doi:10.1080/19392206.2016.1208475.
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(help) - ^ Lindner, Evelin Gerda (2001). "Humiliation and human rights: Mapping a minefield". Human Rights Review. 2 (2). Springer Nature: 46–63. doi:10.1007/s12142-001-1023-5.
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(help) - ^ De Waal, Alex, Jens Meierhenrich, and Bridget Conley-Zilkic (2012). "How mass atrocities end: An evidence-based counter-narrative." Fletcher F. World Affairs, Vol 36, Number 1 (Winter), pp. 15-21
- ^ Roethke, Peter (2006), "The right to secede under international law: the case of Somaliland", Journal of Modern African Studies, Cambridge University Press, Vol. 44, pp. 408-409
Please consider the above scholarly sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:45, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- Good finds, Ms Sarah Welch. I think all of that should be incorporated into the article in some form or another. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:00, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- Ms Sarah Welch Thank you very much for your good finds. I appreciate you taking the time to find these, and they will certainly be added to the source list. I have summarised some of the quotes I have used in my most recent post below for you and Cordless Larry (and all others interested without time to read the longer post) to look at, all in all there are around 35 reputable sources that all explicitly use the word genocide, I will only post 7 quotes from various sections of the earlier post below for sake of brevity (note that the number in brackets at the end corresponds to their order in the post for further reading):
- Quote: "Based on the totality of evidence collected [...] the [United Nations] consultant firmly believes that the crime of genocide was conceived, planned and perpetrated by the Somali Government against the Isaaq people." (1) [1]
- Quote: "Although the barre government had also targeted other resistance groups and their followers during the period of insurgency, 'no other Somali community faced such sustained and intense state-sponsored violence' as the people of former British Somaliland [read Isaaq]." (3b) [2]
- Quote: "The trained refugees took part in the military dictator's policies of extermination and genocide of the northern population [read Isaaq]." (4) [3]
- Quote: "In Somalia, the Isaaq clan is the target of government genocide." (27) [4]
- Quote: "Siad Barre's response was genocidal: days of aerial and ground bombardment of both towns by the Somali Armed forces, backed up by South African mercenary pilots..." (15) [5]
- Quote: "By 1988, the Siad Barre regime waged a war against the Isaaq, which acquired genocidal proportions." (16) [6]
- Quote: "Survivors of genocide, that is, people belonging to the group targeted for genocide. In Somalia this was the Issaq tribe, in Rwanda the Tutsi, in Burundi also the Hutu." (19) [7]
References
- ^ Mburu, Chris; Rights, United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human; Office, United Nations Development Programme Somalia Country (2002-01-01). Past human rights abuses in Somalia: report of a preliminary study conducted for the United Nations (OHCHR/UNDP-Somalia). s.n.
- ^ Geldenhuys, D. (2009-04-22). Contested States in World Politics. Springer. ISBN 9780230234185.
- ^ Salih, Mohamed Abdel Rahim Mohamed; Wohlgemuth, Lennart (1994-01-01). Crisis Management and the Politics of Reconciliation in Somalia: Statements from the Uppsala Forum, 17-19 January 1994. Nordic Africa Institute. ISBN 9789171063564.
- ^ Cyllah, Almami; Prendergast, John; Cyllah, Almami; Prendergast, John (1990-07-01). "GENOCIDE IN THE HORN OF AFRICA". The Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2017-01-21.
- ^ Gardner, Judith; Bushra, Judy El (2004-01-01). Somalia - The Untold Story: The War Through the Eyes of Somali Women. CIIR. ISBN 9780745322087.
- ^ Albrecht, Hans-Jörg (2006-05-12). Conflicts and conflict resolution in Middle Eastern societies--between tradition and modernity. Duncker & Humblot. ISBN 9783428122202.
- ^ Jones, Adam (2004-01-01). Gendercide and genocide. Vanderbilt University Press. ISBN 9780826514448.
- I thank you again for taking the time to add scholarly sources and hope you can take a look at the above sources at a convenient time. They contain both official reports from the UN and scholarly sources as well as an example of international coverage.Kzl55 (talk) 21:58, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- @Kzl55: Good, but the article doesn't cite most of the sources you just mentioned (I am taking they are fine, AGF). It should. Rewrite or expand this article, with these and the sources I suggested above. Include isbn, doi etc info in your cites for easier WP:V. Consider embedding quotes with each cite. One more thing.... do mention "although the Barre government had also targeted other resistance groups and their followers during the period of insurgency" or something equivalent for NPOV. A balanced article would mention at least once, citing source such as Geldenhuys you mention, that clans/groups other than Isaaq were also victims. I have still not read the wall of text in "extended content" above: WP:TLDR. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:14, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
- @Ms Sarah Welch: great points. Will do. Could you please elaborate (or link) what you mean by embedding quotes? If that is possible I feel it would eliminate the 'wall of text' aspect to such posts. Also with regards to previous extended content I mentioned do let me know if you would like a summary like I posted above of the rest of the points, I would be happy to provide one. Many thanks again Kzl55 (talk) 15:59, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
- @Kzl55: Good, but the article doesn't cite most of the sources you just mentioned (I am taking they are fine, AGF). It should. Rewrite or expand this article, with these and the sources I suggested above. Include isbn, doi etc info in your cites for easier WP:V. Consider embedding quotes with each cite. One more thing.... do mention "although the Barre government had also targeted other resistance groups and their followers during the period of insurgency" or something equivalent for NPOV. A balanced article would mention at least once, citing source such as Geldenhuys you mention, that clans/groups other than Isaaq were also victims. I have still not read the wall of text in "extended content" above: WP:TLDR. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:14, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
@Kzl55: Here is an example summary sentence for the article and a cite with embedded quote,
- Not only Isaaq clan, but other groups were also targeted by the Barre government for harsh repression.[1]
References
- ^ Geldenhuys, D. (2009). Contested States in World Politics. Springer. p. 133. ISBN 978-0230234185., Quote: "Northerners were morever targeted for harsh repression by government forces, in particular the politically influential Isaaq clan from whose ranks the SNM rebel movement drew most of its recruits. Although the Barre government had also targeted other resistance groups and their followers during the period of insurgency, 'no other Somali community faced such sustained and intense state-sponsored violence' as the people of former British Somaliland."
- cite fmt (for cut and paste)..... <ref>{{Cite book| url= https://books.google.com/books?id=Sa2HDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA133 |title= Contested States in World Politics |last= Geldenhuys|first= D.|year= 2009 |publisher= Springer|isbn= 978-0230234185| page= 133}}, Quote: "Northerners were morever targeted for harsh repression by government forces, in particular the politically influential Isaaq clan from whose ranks the SNM rebel movement drew most of its recruits. Although the Barre government had also targeted other resistance groups and their followers during the period of insurgency, 'no other Somali community faced such sustained and intense state-sponsored violence' as the people of former British Somaliland."</ref>
More info and alternate ways for doing these: WP:CITE. On rest, please focus on improving the article and citing scholarly sources properly to this article, with embedded quotes as above. No need to post walls of text. No need to inappropriately convert this talk page into WP:FORUM. Right now, in this article too many cited sources are incomplete, weak, or with "full citation needed" tag. That makes the article look weak. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:11, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
- Noted, will update the article, really appreciate your input! Kzl55 (talk) 17:19, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Visual Aids/Photographs
Cant seem to find any public domain photographs/visual aids to include in the article. Anyone with ideas for where to search/personal photographs they are willing to donate? Of interest to this article would be any photographs/visual aids of the conflict in 1988 whether be it in Hargeisa, Burao, Sheikh, Erigavo..etc, refugees at HartaSheikh and other camps in Ethiopia, examples of government atrocities, the aftermath of the genocide, both in terms of civilian loss and fabric of cities/towns/villages.Kzl55 (talk) 20:57, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Kzl55: I've just reverted your addition of an image to the infobox here. While I can empathise with the frustration in being unable to find quality images in the public domain, the image you chose doesn't meet with WP:PERTINENCE for the infobox. Unfortunately, it just looks like a generic photo of an exhumed skeleton on a slab that presents no identifiable features to provide a visual context for the reader, and could have come from an archaeological dig. It's just clinical. If it were, for example, a photo of the actual exhumation with landmarks and other features that would go towards informing the reader, that would be a good use of the image parameter in an infobox. Please compare it with images used in other genocide articles (if the editors have chosen to use an image at all). Images used give a sense of the time and place; methods: circumstances and events that bring home the context. Such distinguishing features are lacking in the photo you've introduced. I can see it as being potentially usable in the body of the article (again, taking PERTINENCE into account as per the caption you provided), but not as an infobox image. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:03, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Iryna Harpy. Kzl55: please be careful with images, and image copyvio issues as well. This is a sensitive topic, where extra care is prudent and needed. It is better to have no image, or wait a while for a pertinent image, than add something sensational/generic with little information value. This applies not only to this article, but to other Somalia / Horn of Africa space articles. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 05:40, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Iryna Harpy: Now that you've explained it I do see your point. I was not aware of WP:PERTINENCE with regards to infobox insertions so thanks for pointing that out. The insertion was partly due to the lack of any PD photographs/visual aids, I have gone through WP:PDIR with no success so when I saw that photograph and confirmed it was PD I jumped at the opportunity. I will try to find a suitable use for it in the body of the article, failing that it might be better to leave it until a suitable section is added.
- @Ms Sarah Welch: Noted, and I agree. I have been looking for PD images/visual aids for a while and so far this was the only one I could find. And although the image is of exhumed remains dug up by forensic investigators it does not show much beyond the bones and does look generic. Having read both Iryna Harpy and your posts I see why it is not suitable. Will definitely keep that in mind. Many thanks to both of you --Kzl55 (talk) 17:29, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Iryna Harpy. Kzl55: please be careful with images, and image copyvio issues as well. This is a sensitive topic, where extra care is prudent and needed. It is better to have no image, or wait a while for a pertinent image, than add something sensational/generic with little information value. This applies not only to this article, but to other Somalia / Horn of Africa space articles. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 05:40, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
After quite a bit of looking (it's been 3 months already!) and some correspondence, I found a photograph from an actual exhumation that I think could be used for the infobox [39]. The photograph was kindly released by the author (Alison Baskerville) as a contribution to this article so has no copyvio issues. Would like to get some opinions before adding it to the article specifically in terms of WP:PERTINENCE as raised by @Iryna Harpy:. Any thoughts @Ms Sarah Welch:, @Koodbuur:, @Cordless Larry:, @Ciiseciise007:? Regards--Kzl55 (talk) 17:06, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
- Kzl55: What are your thoughts about using this image in the main article somewhere instead of infobox? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:35, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
- Ms Sarah Welch: Well, I was thinking of using this one for the infobox and then use the two other photographs donated by the same author in the body of the article [40], [41]. --Kzl55 (talk) 13:31, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- Kzl55: Aren't the other two repetitive? Is there a map of the Horn of Africa that shows affected Isaaq populations/locations where this occurred? Such a map may be informative. Lets wait a week for additional comments. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:52, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that using all three images would be excessive, but I think any one of them would be suitable for the infobox. Thanks for your work to secure the release of these, Kzl55. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:14, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- I believe the first picture would be suitable for the infobox. I don't think there would be any issues with this photo as it is a high quality photo that indicates that these are exhumed remains of victims from the Isaaq genocide as mentioned by the photographer [42]. The other photos are also great, perhaps it would be better to put them together as a collage for the infobox. @Cordless Larry: & @Ms Sarah Welch:, what do you guys think about that? Koodbuur (talk) 16:24, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that using all three images would be excessive, but I think any one of them would be suitable for the infobox. Thanks for your work to secure the release of these, Kzl55. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:14, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- Kzl55: Aren't the other two repetitive? Is there a map of the Horn of Africa that shows affected Isaaq populations/locations where this occurred? Such a map may be informative. Lets wait a week for additional comments. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:52, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- We should avoid repetition, both separately and in the form of a collage. I concur with Cordless Larry. The caption should acknowledge the credits and the photographer. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:38, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- Ms Sarah Welch: Point taken, I can see how that would be excessive. Perhaps the other photographs could be used on other articles/sections discussing the subject, like Somali Rebellion#Against the Isaaq?
- Great point on the map, I have not seen one in any source, but plenty of the sources, including the HRW report, list affected Isaaq populations/locations so perhaps using one of the PD maps of the Horn of Africa we can mark the locations (and provide sources for all inclusions)? How does that sound? Ms Sarah Welch, Cordless_Larry & Koodbuur. Regards --Kzl55 (talk) 16:56, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- The article is pretty long, so perhaps there is room to use one of the photos in the infobox and one later in the article. I'm on the fence about that though, given the similarity between the three images. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:11, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- I'd agree with the use of the first photo for the infobox as the clothing on the remains of the exhumed people does give context. As for using one of the other photos later in the article, I believe it to be excessive as it is evident (by the clothing) that this is the same exhumation from different angles. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:31, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, having different photographs/visual aids in the article is definitely preferable, I am hoping we get more releases, I've been in touch with a number of rights holders of photographs, only one to actually get back was Alison Baskerville who kindly released these three photographs.
- I've started working on the map as suggested by Ms Sarah Welch and hoping to be done by the weekend. --Kzl55 (talk) 10:27, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Here is the map, killing sites information taken from Human Rights Watch's Somalia: A Government at War with its Own People [43], Isaaq territory information taken from CIA map [44]. I did not include all the killing sites as some of the towns and villages I could not find, will try to update it in the future. --Kzl55 (talk) 15:11, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- I'd agree with the use of the first photo for the infobox as the clothing on the remains of the exhumed people does give context. As for using one of the other photos later in the article, I believe it to be excessive as it is evident (by the clothing) that this is the same exhumation from different angles. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:31, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- The article is pretty long, so perhaps there is room to use one of the photos in the infobox and one later in the article. I'm on the fence about that though, given the similarity between the three images. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:11, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- We should avoid repetition, both separately and in the form of a collage. I concur with Cordless Larry. The caption should acknowledge the credits and the photographer. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:38, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Just updated the article with the photograph in info box and map. Many thanks for the map idea and please if anyone has any other ideas for appropriate visual aids do share. Regards--Kzl55 (talk) 16:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
I did a google search for "isaaq genocide" and found zero returns. Therefore, per wp:commonname I have renamed it to "anti-isaaq campaign" which at least is attested by a reliable source. Thylacoop5 (talk) 11:00, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- In addition to all the reliable sources included in the article, an official UN investigation concluded it was a genocide: "Based on the totality of evidence collected in Somaliland and elsewhere both during and after his mission, the consultant firmly believes that the crime of genocide was conceived, planned and perpetrated by the Somali government against the Isaaq people of northern Somalia between 1987 and 1989" [45]. I have restored the original name. --Kzl55 (talk) 11:51, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
- I never claimed this wasn't a genocide. My argument is for implementing wp:commonname. Since "anti-isaaq campaign" is more common than "isaaq genocide", the former should be the article title. Thylacoop5 (talk) 12:05, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Since this article is about all of northwestern Somalia, rather than Hargeisa, "hargeisa" within the lede sentence would violate MOS:LEADSENTENCE. Thylacoop5 (talk) 12:51, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
RfC about article title
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There have been several suggestions for a change of title for this article that have proved inconclusive. Therefore I have the following suggestions:
- (a) "Anti-Isaaq campaign" / "anti-Isaaq campaign (1988-1991)"
- (b) "Isaaq genocide" (current title)
- (c) "Mass killings of the Isaaq (1988-1991)"
- (d) "Massacre of Isaaq (1988-1991)"
- (e) "Isaaq massacres of 1988-1991"/"Isaaq massacres (1988-1991)"
- (f) Another title
Please indicate (with a rationale) whether you support or oppose a title. Thylacoop5 (talk) 17:02, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Option A: "Anti-Isaaq campaign" / "anti-Isaaq campaign (1988-1991)"
Option B: "Isaaq genocide" (current title)
Option C: "Mass killings of the Isaaq (1988-1991)"
Option D: "Massacre of Isaaq (1988-1991)"
Option E: "Isaaq massacres of 1988-1991"/"Isaaq massacres (1988-1991)"
Option F: Another title
- Unassessed Crime-related articles
- Low-importance Crime-related articles
- WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography articles
- B-Class Death articles
- Mid-importance Death articles
- Unassessed WikiProject Somalia articles
- Low-importance WikiProject Somalia articles
- WikiProject Somalia articles
- Wikipedia pages with to-do lists
- Wikipedia requests for comment