Talk:Gay agenda

Please Require Sources when the Opinions of a Minority Interest Group are being presented as Facts

There are no SOURCES to prove that the homosexual agenda is a pejorative term, and in fact, it has been proven to exist. REQUIRE A SOURCE IF YOU EXPECT TO BE CONSIDERED CREDIBLE. TruthSeeker365 (talk) 21:29, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

ironically, no source provided for the claim. Jytdog (talk) 21:38, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

This is an EXTREMELY biased viewpoint

It was written:

"Homosexual agenda (or gay agenda) is a term introduced by sectors of the Christian religious right (primarily in the United States) as a disparaging way to describe the advocacy of cultural acceptance and normalization of non-heterosexual orientations and relationships."

Meanwhile, the truth is that this is a subjective opinion and is in no way grounded in facts, nor is it backed by a credible source. If Wikipedia expects to be an accurate beacon of information, rather than a forum for the advancement of the ideals held by a minority group of homosexuals, then they need to present information in a non-biased manner, without showing favoritism to interest-groups like the LGBTQ movement.

Please indicate that the original post (quoted above) is indeed an opinion; and that it has no factual basis; it is merely conjecture. Please indicate that the above post is not a proven fact, nor is it a commonly accepted claim among the majority of human-beings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthSeeker365 (talk • contribs) 21:45, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Again, no source provided. (btw, with regard to your posts and your username, see WP:The Truth) Jytdog (talk) 21:58, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

For the record, there are 14 archived talk pages associated with this article. The topic the OP raises has been discussed extensively, and there is strong consensus for the current wording. That is unlikely to change, and further SHOUTING and unsubstantiated accusations from WP:SPAs are likely to be removed as trolling. Wikipedia is not a forum. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 22:59, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

What part(s) of that statement do you claim have no factual basis?

(1) that it is a term introduced by sectors of the Christian religious right

(2) primarily in the United States

(3) as a disparaging way to describe

(4) the advocacy of

(5) cultural acceptance and normalization of non-heterosexual orientations and relationships

Isn’t it clear that the user of the term “homosexual agenda (or gay agenda)” is disapproving of some activity, and that the activity disapproved of is “advocacy”? This term is used both by (a) people who oppose gay relationships and by (b) people who do not oppose those relationships but only oppose certain tactics that can be used in bringing about the “cultural acceptance and normalization” of such relations, right? (In this I disagree with other parts of the article that seem to assume it is only used by those in group (a).) I have heard the group (b) view expressed many times by people (often libertarians) who assert quite strongly that everyone has a right not to be discriminated against because of his sexual orientation, but who at the same time disapprove of “search and destroy” tactics that they believe are sometimes used by those working to establish a wider acceptance of different sexual orientations. We certainly wouldn’t expect to hear this term from somebody who is not complaining about something, right? What exactly is the bias that you see? Swood100 (talk) 20:35, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

If you are suggesting an edit, please be succinct and support it with references. Wikipedia is WP:NOTAFORUM for discussing the article subject.- MrX 🖋 21:26, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

If I ask someone to clarify his criticism, and give him an example demonstrating why he appears to be mistaken, is that inappropriate for a talk page? Why isn’t that an example of “Refutation,” described on the pyramid in WP:TPNO as an encouraged form of exchange (“quotes a point of the argument and explains why it’s mistaken”)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swood100 (talk • contribs) 21:54, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

We welcome neutral contributions that look to improve the quality of articles on Wikipedia - if that's what you're here to do then great. If, however, you're here with a particular political/ religious axe to grind then please take it elsewhere. Contaldo80 (talk) 03:20, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

What part of my comment suggests a political/religious axe to grind? I was just disputing the assertion that the quoted sentence is not grounded in facts. The term “gay agenda” unquestionably is a disparaging term, even when it is used by people (the libertarian types) who are disparaging political tactics and not lifestyle. I was asking what part the person disagreed with. Just that it was introduced by the Christian right? If so, I don’t have enough knowledge to say that this is or isn’t grounded in fact. That as used currently it is not disparaging? That’s the part I was disputing. Swood100 (talk) 15:34, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

If you are trying to suggest an edit, please indicate what change you are proposing and support it with references. Wikipedia is WP:NOTAFORUM for discussing the article subject, or other extraneous subjects.- MrX 🖋 15:59, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

I am opposing the edit suggested by TruthSeeker365, as well as his or her assertion that the quoted sentence is not grounded in fact, giving my reasons for this. Why isn't this an encouraged type of comment on a talk page? There is a pyramid at WP:TPNO under which is written “Stay in the top three sections of this pyramid,” which is what I am doing. What part am I misunderstanding? Why all this objection? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swood100 (talk • contribs) 16:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I'm struggling to follow the point you are making. Contaldo80 (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

The point I was making in my post (that you removed) was that there are many people who object to some parts of the gay agenda but not to other parts. There are many people who don’t even call themselves libertarian who wish to simply live and let live, and who support equal rights for gays in general, but who oppose that part of the agenda that they see as attempts to use government as a bludgeon to go after private behavior. The distinction I am making is that not everyone who disparages parts of the gay agenda disparages all of it. Not relevant to the topic? Swood100 (talk) 15:00, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

What agenda?! As a gay man I don't have a list of things that I secretly plot with other gay men to push upon the world. Stop with the conspiracy. Contaldo80 (talk) 03:06, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Look, an "Agenda" is literally “the things that must be done,” and some people with a libertarian approach disparage this aspect of what the gay rights movement, as they see it, believes must be done, without disparaging or opposing equal rights for gays in general. An agenda is not necessarily something that is plotted in secret. You’re the one who introduced the conspiracy thinking. Every interest group has an agenda, which is quite simply the list of things they want to accomplish, along with the best ways of accomplishing them. I agree that the list of things that the gay rights groups want to accomplish is disparaged by some people, but for different reasons. It is those different reasons that should be a part of this story. Swood100 (talk) 16:52, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

What's on the agenda then mate? This "agenda" that everyone gay person around the world seems to want to accomplish.Contaldo80 (talk) 21:26, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Equal rights for gays and the best ways of achieving that. Swood100 (talk) 23:31, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Given that “gay agenda” is used disparagingly, are all people who use it disparaging the same thing?

Off topic
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Why isn’t it relevant to point out that some people oppose only the parts of the "gay agenda" that they believe seek to limit the rights of others? Some readers may not realize that some of the goals of the gay rights movement are objected to by those who hold no animus for gays or their lifestyle. Wickedterrier says “This article is about the term "homosexual agenda", it's not actually about the struggle for LGBTQ rights. You might want to propose adding this content to LGBT social movements.” But why isn’t it relevant that, though the term is used disparagingly, not everyone is disparaging the same thing? Some are disparaging the attempts to normalize the gay lifestyle but some are disparaging only the efforts to limit the freedom of others. Swood100 (talk) 21:06, 14 February 2019 (UTC) Limiting someone's freedom to punch me in the face for being gay you mean? Interesting take. Contaldo80 (talk) 03:07, 15 February 2019 (UTC) But the group under discussion is not supporting anybody’s freedom to punch you in the face. They are supporting a person’s right to free speech, or the freedom not to be forced by government to violate their religious beliefs. There are two distinct issues: what people are disparaging when they use the term “gay agenda,” and whether we agree with their point of view. Our answer to the second question shouldn’t determine whether we point out differences in what various groups are disparaging. Let’s look at the first question in a simplified way, and say that two different motivations animate people who use the term. There are (a) those who think you are despicable and want to punch you in the face and (b) those who oppose efforts to use the government to violate personal liberty, which they believe includes the right to be left alone and to refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding. You appear to be insisting that if we conclude that these two groups are both to be condemned then it is inappropriate to distinguish between their motivations. But it is clearly false. Suppose, for example, that in Hitler’s Germany there was one group that wanted to exterminate the Jews for ethnic reasons and another that wanted to exterminate them for economic reasons. Pointing this out would improve the reader’s understanding of the history. Frankly, you seem to be objecting to any differentiation that could cause the reader to view one motivation in a more sympathetic light, since in your view they should both be condemned. But this story is a descriptive one. It simply describes what people mean by “gay agenda” and does not refuse to describe one meaning because that meaning is particularly abhorrent or because it may (in the judgment of majority of Wikipedia editors) show its users in a more sympathetic light than they deserve. Furthermore it is not a universally recognized truth that these two groups are both to be condemned. Those with a libertarian disposition don’t think so and it is not appropriate for this article to exclude information in order to foreclose the reader from reaching an unfavored conclusion on a question that is the subject of legitimate and current debate in society. That question is not whether innocent people should be subject to assault, but whether civil rights for one group should trump individual freedom for another group. Quite simply, if we are elucidating what people mean by the term “gay agenda” then we should not insist on the fiction that all people mean the same thing or have the same motivation, or that they all want to punch you in the face. Swood100 (talk) 16:35, 15 February 2019 (UTC)Swood100 (talk) 17:20, 15 February 2019 (UTC) Look I think you think this is some sort of discussion forum. It's not. I'm not interested in a debate. If you want to make edits to this article then make sure they are in line with its aim and are sourced. You have yet to demonstrate that. Thanks. Contaldo80 (talk) 21:25, 17 February 2019 (UTC) I think most people will agree that different groups mean different things when they say that they are opposed to some or all of the “gay agenda” (which is just another way of referring to the goal of equal rights for gays and/or the best method of achieving that) in that one group is opposed to the normalization of the gay lifestyle while the other group is not at all opposed to that but is opposed to what they see as the use of government force to interfere with another person’s private life. I then lay out my reasons why it is appropriate to distinguish between these two motivations in an article about opposition to the "gay agenda," and you reply that it is not necessary for you to explain why I am wrong (since you are not interested in a debate) but rather it is sufficient for you simply to say that my reasons are inadequate? My proposed paragraph is not in line with the “aim” of the article but it is not necessary for you to explain why not? What is the aim of this article? Swood100 (talk) 00:09, 18 February 2019 (UTC) Under the WP:BRD guidelines you have been reverted by another editor (with who I agree). It is up to you to make a case why your material should be included and try to build consensus. I am not interested in a debate beyond this. Contaldo80 (talk) 02:40, 18 February 2019 (UTC) Or in even explaining your reasons. “BRD doesn't work well in all situations. It is ideally suited to disputes that involve only a small number of people, all of whom are interested in making progress.” A refusal to discuss makes progress or consensus difficult to achieve. Well, I'll try again then. Swood100 (talk) 04:10, 18 February 2019 (UTC) So every reference to the libertarian angle gets removed but nobody is willing to explain what the objection is? Swood100 (talk) 12:00, 18 February 2019 (UTC) You might have better results if you use reliable sources and cite at least a few that make the same point to demonstrate that the material meets WP:DUEWEIGHT. It is certainly not obvious that this libertarian viewpoint is worthy of mention in this article. - MrX 🖋 12:17, 18 February 2019 (UTC) I cited these three articles from reason.com, a libertarian site, that all say the same thing: https://reason.com/blog/2015/07/01/is-this-where-libertarians-and-the-gay-c https://reason.com/archives/2015/10/13/a-libertarian-gay-divorce https://reason.com/archives/2014/08/19/libertarians-gay-marriage-and-freedom I cited (though not in my most recent version) the following article from another libertarian site to the effect that 7 – 22% of the population have libertarian leanings: https://www.cato.org/blog/how-many-libertarians-are-there-answer-depends-method Is it that libertarian sites are not reliable sources for libertarian beliefs? Is it that the estimates of cato.org can’t be trusted to show what percentage of the population is involved? Is 7 – 22% insufficient to be worthy of mention? Did I inadequately demonstrate that a strong belief in individual liberty is the hallmark of libertarians, together with a belief in as little government as possible, and that the attitudes described in the cited articles are entirely consistent with that? What exactly is the deficiency? Swood100 (talk) 13:08, 18 February 2019 (UTC) "Is it that libertarian sites are not reliable sources for libertarian beliefs?" That's not the problem here. The problem is a) that we can't tell if this argument is a notable one without seeing it covered in a reliable source. And b) that you're adding this to the wrong article as I've told you before. This is about the disparaging term, not about the substantiveness of the disparaging claims being made. --Wickedterrier (talk) 13:18, 18 February 2019 (UTC) LGBT rights opposition might be the most appropriate place to put this, once you've found an appropriate source. --Wickedterrier (talk) 13:48, 18 February 2019 (UTC) I don’t think that LGBT rights opposition would be appropriate since I am talking about a group that says it does not not oppose LGBT rights. If it could be shown that the notion of a gay agenda has a significantly different meaning for two substantial groups in society (even though for both groups the term is a disparaging one) would an explanation of the difference be relevant to this article? Otherwise, the reader is left with the impression that everyone means the same thing, or that all users of the term oppose civil rights for gays, when this is not the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swood100 (talk • contribs) 15:16, 18 February 2019 (UTC) I agree with Wickedterrier this is not the right place for your material. This article covers a disparaging term which suggests that there is a conspiracy by gay people to enforce some sort of agreed "agenda". A broader discussion about how different political beliefs interact with LGBT rights is for a different page. Good luck with your search. Contaldo80 (talk) 22:44, 18 February 2019 (UTC) You use the term “a conspiracy by gay people to enforce some sort of agreed "agenda".” A conspiracy is a secret agreement to do an unlawful or wrongful act. This is what libertarians think is going on. Those who hold such beliefs claim that it is wrongful and should be unlawful to use government force to require the Masterpiece Cakeshop to create a cake to celebrate a gay wedding. They claim that gay rights advocates meet in secret to plan how to target such businesses – to decide what specific cake request to make in order to establish the strongest court case – the goal being to force the targets to capitulate or to drive them out of business. The distinguishing feature is that for the libertarians the wrongful acts do not include homosexuality. Swood100 (talk) 14:51, 19 February 2019 (UTC) Cool story bro. I'm hiding this section now because if this material belongs anywhere then it needs to go somewhere else, and it needs to have reliable sources. --Wickedterrier (talk) 15:10, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Lack of a neutral point of view

I have placed a WP:POV notice on this article and I’d like to make clear my reason for doing so.

It appears that this page is controlled by editors holding the WP:POV that the term “gay agenda” is only used by those who are “anti-gay” or “homophobic.” These editors wish to leave the reader with the impression that everyone who opposes any part of the gay agenda opposes all of it. I have explained some of my opposition to this above in a section that has been closed, apparently by consensus, on the ground that it is off topic. However, the WP:POV rules cannot be superseded by consensus. Nor should the content of pages be controlled by political correctness.

There are a great many people who support gay rights and disparage only that part of the gay agenda that they see as attempting to use the power of government to infringe on privacy rights, free speech and freedom of association. Here are some examples of this viewpoint:

However, since the Supreme Court of Obergefell v. Hodges, which ended government prohibition on same-sex marriage, the gay rights movement has been perceived by some libertarians as having started using government as a bludgeon to go after private behavior. https://reason.com/archives/2015/10/13/a-libertarian-gay-divorce

The gay-rights movement is turning from same-sex marriage to the next item on its agenda: outlawing discrimination based on sexual orientation. That is where many libertarians who strongly supported same-sex marriage step back for a more measured approach. http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Cato_Institute_Civil_Rights.htm

Last but not least, I am tired of the homosexual agenda. I have no problem with anyone being gay. If I were a baker, I would probably agree to bake a cake for a gay couple’s wedding, even without the threat of force. But I think it is despicable that a bakery is essentially forced to bake a cake for a gay couple. It is the baker’s time and property and he should be able to do whatever he wants. It is called freedom of association. https://libertarianinvestments.com/2015/08/04/political-correctness-gone-wild/

A substantial proportion (approximately one-half) of same-sex marriage advocates also supports service refusal by the self-employed photographer. http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/12/eaao5834

“We at Cato have long supported both religious liberty and gay rights, insofar as the agenda of each is consistent with the liberty of unlimited constitutional government,” Roger Pilon, founding director of the Cato Center for Constitutional Studies, said. “But we draw the line when same-sex couples turn around and use government to force venues against their religious beliefs to participate in same-sex ceremonies, as happens too often today.” http://thefederalist.com/2016/06/15/how-can-gay-rights-and-religious-liberty-coexist-with-free-association/

The bottom line is that there are many people who disparage the “gay agenda” only insofar as it attempts to use government as a bludgeon to go after private behavior, and the insistence on this page that only homophobes and haters disparage any part of the approach used by gay rights activists is simply WP:POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swood100 (talk • contribs) 21:50, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

If that is the reason you placed the POV tag, I will feel free to remove it. You have no idea what editor's motivations are and you should not speculate about such. What matters is the relevance of the content in the article and whether it reflects the preponderance of reliable sources about the subject. The subject is the disparaging political term, not the actual struggle for LGBT rights. I repeat, this article is not about LGBT rights. "Gay agenda" is not synonymous with "gay rights".

Also, please learn what a reliable source is for Wikipedia's purpose. You should not be relying on sources like libertarianinvestments.com and reason.blog. They do not meet our standard for reliable sources. Neither Science nor The Federalist discuss the subject of this article at all. I will wait to hear from other editors before removing the POV tag.- MrX 🖋 22:48, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Observation?

Logical inconsistency and conflict of interests ?

It is claimed that Judy Rebick, a famous well known feminist has stated that 'lesbians were at the heart of the feminist movement evne though they did not pursue their issues, pursuing violence against women, and violence against women" with the focus on men who are violence against women.

These statements should be examined as being logically inconsistent.

The observation is made that violence against women by lesbian women is totally missing from postings, and a conflict of interest of feminists of lesbian background.

I think you may be on the wrong page 24.79.147.13. I don't find anything about "Logical inconsistency and conflict of interests" or "Judy Rebick" in this article.- MrX 🖋 12:10, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Recent edits

Sanation, see WP:Editorializing. Stop engaging in editorializing. Something like "conspiracy theory" needs a WP:Reliable source. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:50, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

• I did find several sources specifically talking about the "gay agenda" being a rightwing conspiracy theory, and both of them are factual and have been rated "High" by Media Bias Fact Check and have never failed a IFCN factchecker, although they do have a certain level of bias:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/01/a-peek-at-conservatisms-anti-gay-conspiracy-theorist-fringe/250959/ https://www.advocate.com/year-review/2014/12/23/years-craziest-right-wing-conspiracy-theories-about-lgbt-people Would these be considered a reliable source to cite the "conspiracy theory" segment? Or should they be off-limits when it comes to proper references? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanation (talk • contribs) 02:26, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

No, those sources do not define "gay agenda" as a conspiracy theory. - MrX 🖋 11:44, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

A direct citation from the Atlantic article itself:

"Here's what the magazine's ad folks (to their discredit) sent out (or excerpts thereof):

Dear Pro-family American, The Radical Homosexuals infiltrating the United States Congress have a plan: Indoctrinate an entire generation of American children with pro-homosexual propaganda and eliminate traditional values from American society. Their ultimate dream is to create a new America based on sexual promiscuity in which the values you and I cherish are long forgotten. I hate to admit it, but if they pass the deceptively named "Student Non-Discrimination Act," (H.R. 998 & S. 555) that's exactly what they'll do. Better named the "Homosexual Classrooms Act," its chief advocate in Congress is Rep. Jared Polis, himself an open homosexual and radical activist. And it's dangerously close to becoming the law of the land....

....You see, the Homosexual Classrooms Act contains a laundry list of anti-family provisions that will: Require schools to teach appalling homosexual acts so "homosexual students" don't feel "singled out" during already explicit sex-ed classes; Spin impressionable students in a whirlwind of sexual confusion and misinformation, even peer pressure to "experiment" with the homosexual "lifestyle;" Exempt homosexual students from punishment for propositioning, harassing, or even sexually assaulting their classmates, as part of their specially-protected right to "freedom of self-expression;" Force private and even religious schools to teach a pro-homosexual curriculum and purge any reference to religion if a student claims it creates a "hostile learning environment" for homosexual students. And that's just the beginning of the Homosexual Lobby's radical agenda....

....other countries like Britain are already experimenting with this kind of legislation, such as mandating public schools inject pro-homosexual content into every aspect of education. Word problems in math classes are now to include homosexual characters. History classes will document the "civil rights" struggle against the "oppressive" pro-family establishment. And it's even started to infiltrate our state governments. In California, lawmakers want to "require schools to portray lesbians, homosexuals, transsexuals ... as positive role models to children in all public schools." Sexual deviants being held up as models of virtue?" And they already have clearly and explicitly described the above text sent from said anti-gay mailing list as part of the "conspiracy theorist fringe" of the religious right, which, unless there is some coded language here that I know nothing of, does amount to an description as an conspiracy theory.

Next, we have another quote from the Advocate article that I've cited which matches up with one of the "key goals of the gay agenda" as the lead section of this article presents it to be:

"We’re recruiting and molesting children. Oh, and we’re basically rapists. Actually, Jody Hice (above), a Georgia minister and talk-show host, vilified gay people in a 2012 book, but he got a wider audience this year with his run for Congress (and unfortunately, he won). Hice’s book It’s Now or Never: A Call to Reclaim America quoted this passage from a 1987 essay by a gay writer: “We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, of your shallow dreams and vulgar lies. We shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker rooms, in your sports arenas, in your seminaries, in your youth groups, in your movie theater bathrooms, in your army bunkhouses, in your truck stops, in your all male clubs, in your houses of Congress, wherever men are with men together. Your sons shall become our minions and do our bidding. They will be recast in our image. They will come to crave and adore us.” One problem: Hice didn’t realize the entire essay was satire. Steven Anderson, pastor of Faithful Word Baptist Church in Tempe, Ariz., has offered a similar characterization of LGBT people. He marked World AIDS Day by posting video to Facebook of a sermon in which he said, “If you executed the homos like God recommends, you wouldn’t have all this AIDS running rampant,” then followed that up by posting a video of him saying gay people are “disgusting,” “vile,” “reprobate,” “haters of the Lord,” “filled with murder,” and “basically rapists.” One of his protégés, Texas minister Donnie Romero, preached a sermon in December saying, “I’m not going to let any of these dirty f*ggots inside my church. They are all pedophiles. ... They’re always trying to rape and hurt other people. They’re relentless. They are relentless. They are predators, and given an opportunity to snatch one of your children, they would do it in a heartbeat.”

Undid move to 'Homosexual agenda conspiracy theory'

A unilateral move of Homosexual agenda to Homosexual agenda conspiracy theory has been undone. Please see instructions at WP:RM#Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves. The sources in your edit summary will be useful to add to a Requested move discussion, but you can't just execute a move like this unilaterally, without any discussion. Mathglot (talk) 11:14, 8 June 2019 (UTC)