Talk:World Financial Group: Difference between revisions
Line 38: | Line 38: | ||
:Wikipedia goes by reliable sources, with a strong preference for third-party sources. Per the New York Times: {{tq|As a pyramidlike, multilevel sales organization, World Financial produces the big compensation for its agents not from their sales of products so much as their recruitment of new agents, according to the company's marketing materials.}}[https://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/28/business/worldbusiness/28iht-regs.4.13285329.html] This is much more persuasive than [[WP:OR|original research]] based on the BBB's routine profile. You are free to continue this discussion, but do not reopen the request until consensus has been formed. [[User:Grayfell|Grayfell]] ([[User talk:Grayfell|talk]]) 21:32, 20 June 2018 (UTC) |
:Wikipedia goes by reliable sources, with a strong preference for third-party sources. Per the New York Times: {{tq|As a pyramidlike, multilevel sales organization, World Financial produces the big compensation for its agents not from their sales of products so much as their recruitment of new agents, according to the company's marketing materials.}}[https://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/28/business/worldbusiness/28iht-regs.4.13285329.html] This is much more persuasive than [[WP:OR|original research]] based on the BBB's routine profile. You are free to continue this discussion, but do not reopen the request until consensus has been formed. [[User:Grayfell|Grayfell]] ([[User talk:Grayfell|talk]]) 21:32, 20 June 2018 (UTC) |
||
::What Wikipedia goes by is actually irrelevant. Here's the FTC's commentary on what an MLM is, and is not, including specific commentary on Wiki's own MLM pages. [https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/documents/public_comments/trade-regulation-rule-disclosure-requirements-and-prohibitions-concerning-business-opportunities-ftc.r511993-00014%C2%A0/00014-57319.pdf FTC MLM Legal definitions]. Here is what the FTC document comments on Wiki's own MLM page: "MLM spokesmen clearly crafted this definition, which Wikopedia [sic] uncritically accepted in lieu of definitions of consumer advocates that would highlight the inherent flaws in MLM. For example, no mention is made of the endless chain of recruitment and a pay plan that is recruitment-driven, top-weighted, and financed primarily by incentivized purchases of the participants themselves. These critical features will be explained later in this chapter." Worth noting in all this is that the Wiki MLM page [[Multi-level_marketing|MLMs]] specifically calls MLMs "pyramid selling" based on 2 references that are actually dead sources. There's already been discussion on this issue on the MLM page, and it's acknowledged that the sources are not valid, and therefore would be candidates for removal. Note here from the FTC's 2008 rule, that MLMs and pyramid schemes are _legally_ defined as different things. "Multi-level marketing is one form of |
::What Wikipedia goes by is actually irrelevant. Here's the FTC's commentary on what an MLM is, and is not, including specific commentary on Wiki's own MLM pages. [https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/documents/public_comments/trade-regulation-rule-disclosure-requirements-and-prohibitions-concerning-business-opportunities-ftc.r511993-00014%C2%A0/00014-57319.pdf FTC MLM Legal definitions]. Here is what the FTC document comments on Wiki's own MLM page: "MLM spokesmen clearly crafted this definition, which Wikopedia [sic] uncritically accepted in lieu of definitions of consumer advocates that would highlight the inherent flaws in MLM. For example, no mention is made of the endless chain of recruitment and a pay plan that is recruitment-driven, top-weighted, and financed primarily by incentivized purchases of the participants themselves. These critical features will be explained later in this chapter." Worth noting in all this is that the Wiki MLM page [[Multi-level_marketing|MLMs]] specifically calls MLMs "pyramid selling" based on 2 references that are actually dead sources. There's already been discussion on this issue on the MLM page, and it's acknowledged that the sources are not valid, and therefore would be candidates for removal. Note here from the FTC's 2008 rule, that MLMs and pyramid schemes are _legally_ defined as different things. "Multi-level marketing is one form of direct selling, and refers to a business model in which a company distributes products through a network of distributors who earn income from their own retail sales of the product and from retail sales made by the distributors‘ direct and indirect recruits. Because they earn a commission from the sales their recruits make, each member in the MLM network has an incentive to continue recruiting additional sales representatives into their ―down lines.― - Peter J. Vander Nat and William W. Keep, “Marketing Fraud: An Approach to Differentiating Multilevel Marketing from Pyramid Schemes,” Wiki has a distinct obligation to get this correct, and _not_ protect bad terminology (the current case) because "oh, but it's sourced". The sources are bad, and the conformance with legal definitions is horrendous. --[[User:Cprael|Cprael]] ([[User talk:Cprael|talk]]) 19:24, 13 August 2019 (UTC) |
||
direct selling, and refers to a business model in which a company distributes products through a network of distributors who earn income from their own retail sales of the product and from retail sales made by the distributors‘ direct and indirect recruits. Because they earn a commission from the sales their recruits make, each member in the MLM network has an incentive to continue recruiting additional sales representatives into their ―down lines.― - Peter J. Vander Nat and William W. Keep, “Marketing Fraud: An Approach to Differentiating Multilevel Marketing from Pyramid Schemes,” Wiki has a distinct obligation to get this correct, and _not_ protect bad terminology (the current case) because "oh, but it's sourced". The sources are bad, and the conformance with legal definitions is horrendous. --[[User:Cprael|Cprael]] ([[User talk:Cprael|talk]]) 19:24, 13 August 2019 (UTC) |
|||
== Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2018 == |
== Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2018 == |
Revision as of 19:25, 13 August 2019
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the World Financial Group article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1Auto-archiving period: 1095.5 days ![]() |
![]() | This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
|
![]() Archives (Index) |
This page is archived by ClueBot III.
|
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 4 external links on World Financial Group. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140323113251/http://www.cc.state.az.us:80/divisions/securities/news_releases/1998/nov25-98.pdf to http://www.cc.state.az.us/divisions/securities/news_releases/1998/nov25-98.pdf
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120623163334/http://world-financial-group.wfhdirectory.com:80/info/world-financial-group to http://world-financial-group.wfhdirectory.com/info/world-financial-group/
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120614154918/http://www.worldfinancialgroup.com:80/industry-partners/ to http://www.worldfinancialgroup.com/industry-partners/
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110727135712/http://www.securities.state.ut.us/press/worldgroup.pdf to http://www.securities.state.ut.us/press/worldgroup.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
- If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
- If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 20:20, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Too many SPAs here. Started sockpuppet investigation.
See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/FactFinder1000. John Nagle (talk) 23:50, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2018
![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This needs to be revised please change "World Financial Group (WFG) is a multi-level marketing company" to "World Financial Group (WFG) is a It's a financial brokerage."
This is not an MLM. It's a financial brokerage and is proven to be by the BBB. The company is structured as such. Whoever last edited this don't understand the structure of a brokerage. WikFeatured (talk) 21:24, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- Wikipedia goes by reliable sources, with a strong preference for third-party sources. Per the New York Times:
As a pyramidlike, multilevel sales organization, World Financial produces the big compensation for its agents not from their sales of products so much as their recruitment of new agents, according to the company's marketing materials.
[1] This is much more persuasive than original research based on the BBB's routine profile. You are free to continue this discussion, but do not reopen the request until consensus has been formed. Grayfell (talk) 21:32, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- What Wikipedia goes by is actually irrelevant. Here's the FTC's commentary on what an MLM is, and is not, including specific commentary on Wiki's own MLM pages. FTC MLM Legal definitions. Here is what the FTC document comments on Wiki's own MLM page: "MLM spokesmen clearly crafted this definition, which Wikopedia [sic] uncritically accepted in lieu of definitions of consumer advocates that would highlight the inherent flaws in MLM. For example, no mention is made of the endless chain of recruitment and a pay plan that is recruitment-driven, top-weighted, and financed primarily by incentivized purchases of the participants themselves. These critical features will be explained later in this chapter." Worth noting in all this is that the Wiki MLM page MLMs specifically calls MLMs "pyramid selling" based on 2 references that are actually dead sources. There's already been discussion on this issue on the MLM page, and it's acknowledged that the sources are not valid, and therefore would be candidates for removal. Note here from the FTC's 2008 rule, that MLMs and pyramid schemes are _legally_ defined as different things. "Multi-level marketing is one form of direct selling, and refers to a business model in which a company distributes products through a network of distributors who earn income from their own retail sales of the product and from retail sales made by the distributors‘ direct and indirect recruits. Because they earn a commission from the sales their recruits make, each member in the MLM network has an incentive to continue recruiting additional sales representatives into their ―down lines.― - Peter J. Vander Nat and William W. Keep, “Marketing Fraud: An Approach to Differentiating Multilevel Marketing from Pyramid Schemes,” Wiki has a distinct obligation to get this correct, and _not_ protect bad terminology (the current case) because "oh, but it's sourced". The sources are bad, and the conformance with legal definitions is horrendous. --Cprael (talk) 19:24, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2018
![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This needs to be revised please change "World Financial Group (WFG) is a multi-level marketing company" to "World Financial Group (WFG) is a It's a financial brokerage."
This is not an MLM. It's a financial brokerage and is proven to be by the BBB. The company is structured as such. Whoever last edited this don't understand the structure of a brokerage. WikFeatured (talk) 21:24, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- Wikipedia goes by reliable sources, with a strong preference for third-party sources. Per the New York Times:
As a pyramidlike, multilevel sales organization, World Financial produces the big compensation for its agents not from their sales of products so much as their recruitment of new agents, according to the company's marketing materials.
[2] This is much more persuasive than original research based on the BBB's routine profile. You are free to continue this discussion, but do not reopen the request until consensus has been formed. Grayfell (talk) 21:32, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- What Wikipedia goes by is actually irrelevant. Here's the FTC's commentary on what an MLM is, and is not, including specific commentary on Wiki's own MLM pages. FTC MLM Legal definitions. Here is what the FTC document comments on Wiki's own MLM page: "MLM spokesmen clearly crafted this definition, which Wikopedia [sic] uncritically accepted in lieu of definitions of consumer advocates that would highlight the inherent flaws in MLM. For example, no mention is made of the endless chain of recruitment and a pay plan that is recruitment-driven, top-weighted, and financed primarily by incentivized purchases of the participants themselves. These critical features will be explained later in this chapter." Worth noting in all this is that the Wiki MLM page MLMs specifically calls MLMs "pyramid selling" based on 2 references that are actually dead sources. There's already been discussion on this issue on the MLM page, and it's acknowledged that the sources are not valid, and therefore would be candidates for removal. Note here from the FTC's 2008 rule, that MLMs and pyramid schemes are _legally_ defined as different things. "Multi-level marketing is one form of
direct selling, and refers to a business model in which a company distributes products through a network of distributors who earn income from their own retail sales of the product and from retail sales made by the distributors‘ direct and indirect recruits. Because they earn a commission from the sales their recruits make, each member in the MLM network has an incentive to continue recruiting additional sales representatives into their ―down lines.― - Peter J. Vander Nat and William W. Keep, “Marketing Fraud: An Approach to Differentiating Multilevel Marketing from Pyramid Schemes,” Wiki has a distinct obligation to get this correct, and _not_ protect bad terminology (the current case) because "oh, but it's sourced". The sources are bad, and the conformance with legal definitions is horrendous. --Cprael (talk) 19:24, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 5 January 2019
![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change...
"World Financial Group (WFG) is a multi-level marketing company based in Johns Creek, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta, which sells investment, insurance, and various other financial products through a network of distributors in the United States, Canada, and Puerto Rico.[1][2][3] It is wholly owned by Transamerica, a subsidiary of Aegon.[4]"
To ...
"World Financial Group (WFG) is a financial services marketing company based in Johns Creek, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta, which sells investment, insurance, and various other financial products through a network of distributors in the United States, Canada, and Puerto Rico.[1][2][3] It is wholly owned by Transamerica, a subsidiary of Aegon.[4]
Because ...
World Financial Group is not a multi-level marketing company but rather a financial services marketing company. Below I will strategically break down the three references that have been highlighted & how they are flawed. Once I break down the flawed references, I will make a recommendation to use new references from much more reputable websites.
According to current Reference #1: Lubove, Seth (May 28, 2008). "Dutch Insurer's U.S. unit draws scrutiny from regulators" ...
We do not know who Seth Lubove is or, what his credentials are in reporting on World Financial Group. We do not know the sources of his article either and thus have found many false statements within the article itself. Although the New York Times is a reputable newspaper & website, we are not so sure about Seth Lubove.
For example: "One thing about the unit, based in Duluth, Georgia, that sets it apart from traditional sales forces is structure. As a pyramidlike, multilevel sales organization, World Financial produces the big compensation for its agents not from their sales of products so much as their recruitment of new agents, according to the company's marketing materials."
False statement #1: World Financial produces the big compensation for its agents not from their sales of products so much as their recruitment of new agents, according to the company's marketing materials.
Agents of World Financial Group do not get compensated by the recruitment of new agents. No where in the company's marketing materials does it state that. By law, compensation for recruitment is illegal in the United States.
According to current Reference #2: "Petition to Revoke License" (PDF). Securities.utah.gov. Archived from the original.
A petition to revoke license filed by Mr. Wayne Klein on October 12 2006 indicates in section 6 that "WFG is a multi-level marketing company." By which authority does Mr. Klein assert that World Financial Group is a multi-level marketing company? Multi-level marketing is a marketing strategy, not a company definition.
Reference #3 "Aegon in Missouri Provokes Regulators Finding Sales Deceptions". Bloomberg. May 28, 2008.
This reference is a dead link and can be removed.
My suggested change to the heading of World Financial Group's wikipedia page can be substantiated by the following references:
Bloomberg https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=6549822
Baltimore Business Journal https://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/prnewswire/press_releases/Maryland/2018/12/19/PH08053
According to these references, here is what it says about World Financial Group:
"World Financial Group, Inc., a financial services marketing company, provides life insurance, and financial products and services to individuals and families. The company offers insurance products, such as term and permanent life insurance; annuities, including fixed, variable, and equity indexed; and mutual funds. The company also provides college planning services, such as prepaid college tuition and college savings plans, education savings accounts, custodial accounts, and savings bonds; retirement strategies; and business client solutions. The Company offers its services through independent business associates in the United States and Canada." 47.28.116.80 (talk) 07:52, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- “We do not know who Seth Lubove is or, what his credentials are in reporting on World Financial Group. We do not know the sources of his article either…”
- That’s not germane to WPs sourcing policy. The article was published in the NYT, which fully meets all WP requirements for source reliability, and that’s all we need to know (and FYI Lubove is a business/financial journalist).
- “By which authority does Mr. Klein assert that World Financial Group is a multi-level marketing company?”
- Um, by virtue of the fact that he is Director of the Division of Securities for the Utah Department of Commerce. Authoritative and, again, fully meets WP sourcing policy.
- "Reference #3 'Aegon in Missouri Provokes Regulators Finding Sales Deceptions'. Bloomberg. May 28, 2008. This reference is a dead link and can be removed."
- That’s not how WP handles dead links. The publication does not cease to exist, or be relevant, simply because it’s no longer available at the old link. Dead links are simply marked with a dead link tag, or in this case, updated with an archived link, which didn’t take much effort to find.[3]
- That’s 3 swings and 3 whiffs. Given the apparent attempt at whitewashing, it seems pretty likely that you have a WP:COI with respect to the subject of this article, so I suggest you read over and comply with the dictates of that policy, and perhaps work on some other articles, or in the sandbox for a while, until you get a better grasp of how things work here on WP. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:30, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- Just to put an exclamation point on things, the company’s own SEC filings describe WFG as an MLM:
- “ACI’s...key channels of distribution are...World Financial Group/AEGON USA-owned or operated multi-level marketing group” (p. 36).[4]
- They do so again here[5] as does the SEC.[6] It's always amazing when the minions for these MLM companies scurry around editing articles by trying to whitewash the fact that they are in fact MLMs. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Own it for crying out loud. And stop wasting time and resources with these lame protestations. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:23, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- Marking as
Not done per the above. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 19:22, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
- C-Class Brands articles
- Low-importance Brands articles
- WikiProject Brands articles
- C-Class company articles
- Low-importance company articles
- WikiProject Companies articles
- C-Class Georgia (U.S. state) articles
- Low-importance Georgia (U.S. state) articles
- C-Class Atlanta articles
- Low-importance Atlanta articles
- Atlanta task force articles
- WikiProject Georgia (U.S. state) articles
- C-Class Finance & Investment articles
- Low-importance Finance & Investment articles
- WikiProject Finance & Investment articles
- C-Class Marketing & Advertising articles
- Low-importance Marketing & Advertising articles
- WikiProject Marketing & Advertising articles