Talk:Firefly (TV series)

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Production notes

Per WP:Television: Any behind the scenes information is encouraged. This includes things like Running gags and important Trivia, but also Emmy, Golden Globe, and similar nominations and awards. Keep in mind though that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information and that where possible you should use prose instead of creating long lists of trivia.

There are many running gags on Firefly.... It also spawned catch phrases amongst the fans such as "Shiny".

GA passed

Meets all criteria Childzy ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 17:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Peer Review

Well, I've set this article to be peer reviewed, which means that Wikipedia editors from all over will come in and help us to improve this article. It might involve some changes, but it will help to get this article to FA status. Tuvas 19:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Tuvas!plange 20:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Broadcast history

See peer review for the reason I redid that section into prose which just got reverted back into basically a list again, just without bullets. If chronological is better, that's cool, but still think it needs to be written with prose. Each country does not need its own paragraph. -plange 15:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I see. I didn't revert, I added extra references and info for SA, at which point the English paragraph seemed too big; but I guess if the country name is in the 1st few words of the 1st sentence discussing that country, we can have larger paragraphs again. By first airing year? -- Jeandré, 2006-07-16t19:36z

Perfect! plange 20:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Dead or Alive?

ive read on some pages about a script for an unmade episode titles Dead or Alive... does anyone have any links to where i can find this script? -Xornok 02:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I haven't heard of one...Let us know what you find out -plange 02:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

http://www.fireflyfans.net/feature.asp?f=45 script for Dead or alive..... 20:06 21 July 2006

Someone put the script up in the article, but I don't see it anywhere. Why was it removed? Drewboy64 19:39, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Theme/Element missed?

its been a while since i've seen the series, but... doesn't mal get hurt in just about every episode, if not every episode? if so, should this be in the 'theme' or 'elements' section at all? JoeSmack ^Talk 05:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Serenity: shot in the arm in the Patient shootout.

Ttj: bar fight, bleeding knuckles.

Bushw: ?

Shin: stabbed.

Safe: ?

OMR: drugged, falls over.

JT: ?

Oog: shot in the belly.

Ariel: ?

Ws: tortured something nasty.

Trash: bloody nose from Yolanda.

Tm: ?stuff falls on him in flashback?

Hog: ?broken heart?

Ois: gets knocked out by Jubal.

Those left behind: Book punches him, hard.

Serenity movie: Tussles with the operative.

See also gloomy Joe's Firefly injury scorecard ;)

That said, even if he was injured in all the episodes, that would just show that he's putting himself in dangerous situtions, which is pretty common for TV shows. -- Jeandré, 2006-07-18t20:20z

I don't really see it as any kind of thematic thing-- persistent plot device maybe? It's more like trivia, which is not encyclopedic, right? -plange 21:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

re: Kaylee

Thanks Josiah-- that actually is a direct quote from the DVD that I had in there, so perhaps adding your disclaimer in front adds more authority to that. -plange 21:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Peer review

Hey everyone-- I've been begging and pleading on various projects (Television, MOS (Writing Fiction), etc) for peer reviews and we have some more in... wanted to have you guys take a look at the feedback and see what you thought, etc., I've never participated in a peer review so wasn't sure if we're supposed to do all or if they're just suggestions, etc. -plange 20:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone had a chance to look at it yet? I'd like to address these, but wasn't sure if they were just suggestions. Also, does anyone have the "Space hookers" book as perhaps it has some stuff to help flesh out the Themes section.... plange 01:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I have a copy of finding Serenity, but most of it's painful to read - poorly written and lots of mistakes. I've read better essays and criticism on fff. Here's the contents:

1. Introduction
2. The Reward, the Details, the Devils, the Due
3. The Heirs of Sawney Beane
4. Asian Objects in Space
5. The Rise and Fall (and Rise) of Firefly
6. Who Killed Firefly?
7. "The Train Job" Didn't Do the Job
8. Serenity and Bobby McGee
9. Firefly vs. The Tick
10. We're All Just Floating in Space
11. More Than a Marriage of Convenience
12. "Thanks for the reenactment, sir"
13. Whores and Goddesses
14. The Captain May Wear the Tight Pants, but It's the Gals Who Make Serenity Soar
15. I Want Your Sex
16. Just Shove Him in the Engine, or The Role of Chivalry in Joss Whedon's Firefly
17. Mirror/Mirror: A Parody
18. Star Truck
19. Chinese Words in the Verse
20. Listening to Firefly
21. Kaylee Speaks: Jewel Staite on Firefly
22. Unofficial Glossary of Firefly Chinese [1] -- Jeandré, 2006-08-02t20:26z

Wookie, Barnas, and the rest of the crew-- can you guys take a look at the comments we got back from the peer review? plange 00:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure. I'm just busy getting back from holiday at the moment, should be able to in the next day or so. Barnas 01:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Being released in HD

Just ran across this, but gotta run out. Would make a great addition to the article http://www.tvweek.com/page.cms?pageId=212 plange 21:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

• It already is. :) The Wookieepedian 23:31, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Cool! plange 19:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

What is "UHD"? "UHD" gets me "University of Houston–Downtown". — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 15:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

• Universal HD. The Wookieepedian 16:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
• Great that the information is in there, but it is misplaced. Shouldn't it be under, say, the broadcast section, or something else? Information about a rebroadcast in HDTV does not belong under the DVD header. --Jmccorm 01:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Brief The Onion mention

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/50902 where it'll be for a month until the archive page goes pay-only.

Since Firefly is capitalised and italicised, I think they're referring to the spunky TV show and not the insect. I'd mention it at the top of the talk page with one of those websitemention boxes, but I don't know if an appropriate one exists. It wasn't linked directly by a high-traffic website. Nor is The Onion a news source in this dimension. TransUtopian 16:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you're right about the meaning of "Firefly" here, but this really isn't something worth posting a note about at the top of the talk page. The primary purpose for this page is to discuss article content, and the Onion reference, even if it were verified as a reference to the Whedon show, is not worth adding to the article. (Thanks for the notice about the amusing article, though.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 19:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Point of interest, Jeandre notified us about this last week on our project talk page :-) plange 19:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point, and cool. I've been shying away from any project because I edit teensy things on anything I happen to land upon, but I might stop by and get sucked in. :) TransUtopian 22:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Some little things that might need attention?

The show explores what happens to people who fought on the losing side of a civil war, as well as the pioneer/frontier culture that exists on the fringes of their solar system.

The fandom seems entirely mixed on the issue of whether or not the 'verse is one system or mulitiple, mostly thanks to the fact that the canon is thoroughly confusing on the matter. The introduction by the teacher in Serenity (the movie, of course, not the episode) is usually cited as evidence for the 'verse all being one system - but technically, it says almost nothing about it, because of course, it's a history lesson, not an astronomy or geography lesson. It says they moved to a system with multiple planets and moons and what have you, but what it doesn't say is whether or not they stayed in that system or expanded into neighboring systems. The fact that Joss never did seem able to publicly decide whether or not ships in the 'verse could reach light speed (they just move, as one person put it, "at the Speed of Plot") does nothing to help matters (if he had chosen one, it would make it relatively easy - thanks to a handful of noted travel times - to determine if the planets were more likely in the same system. Unfortunately, though, we don't have that luxury). The map shown on the com screen in Serenity does not, as a point of fact, help either, because (having talked to a few folks who actually know a thing or two about physics and astronomy) either it's a.) the most beautifully stylized map EVER, e.g. not accurate unless you interact with it (as River does when she points out a certain planet *ahem*) and/or with distances that are more than a little "off" as far as scale, and/or with more star-like objects than there are actual stars, b.) depicting a system that will probably collapse under its own gravity within a few thousand years (one guy I talked to - whose scientific judgment I very truly do not doubt - said "5,000 years, tops"), or c.) "it's a really pretty picture" (same guy who said 5,000 years), and is almost completely meaningless - artistic, more than scientific in nature. Of course, exact distances between planets are never mentioned, even when travel times or arrival times are. And, of course, the characters never refer to where they live and work as "the solar system" or, IIRC, "the system"(though I could swear that somewhere, there's a mention of "galaxy", though that could have been hyperbole in the dialogue, and can't be trusted either). Furthermore, I have a copy of the Serenity Visual Companion. The SVC says absolutely nothing concrete about whether or not the current setting of the 'verse is or is not one system.

In short, from what I can tell, it simply hasn't been proven, nor is it even at this point proveable one way or the other that it's still only one solar system. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I may have missed something, but I don't think I have.

However, barring my being mistaken and there being truly concrete information on it, this is easily remedied by changing solar system to "'verse". After all, that's the word the creator and characters actually use, and putting it in quotation makes that clear and avoids OR issues of any kind completely. :)

If I find any other things that bug me, I'll bring 'em up here. :) Runa27 17:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I was never ever under the impression it was only one system. I'm not sure I know anyone who is. But if you try to apply any kind of logic to it, no system could have enough planets in the right temperature range to support life, terraforming or not. I'm pretty sure that the Serenity RPG also explicitly mentions systems. If only I had the energy to scan the DVDs, the Comic and the RPG book to look for exact evidence. :P - BalthCat 00:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, I was never, ever under the impression that it was more than one system. It's something that's simply never adressed solidly in canon- the brief mentions and map in the movie seem to imply one system, but really. Who knows? Barnas 01:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Editors attempting to apply logic to theorize details not explicitly given by reliable sources are engaging in original research. But if you insist, here is the most relevant logical argument about the number of systems:

• Joss Whedon is on record as refusing to let technical details get in the way of telling his stories.
• The canonical material in Firefly/Serenity is at best ambiguous on this subject.
• Astrophysicists have repeatedly had to acknowledge that that there is much about the universe that they still don't know, so Wikipedia editors attempting to argue that something "must be" or "is impossible" is patently absurd.

Must we be hit in the head with a hammer to get past this debate? In short, as Mystery Science Theater 3000 likes to point out, "repeat to yourself, 'it's just a show, I should really just relax'", and not reach beyond the sources. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

According to the Serenity RPG, all of the inhabited planets and moons are in a single system, and there is no FTL. UncreativeNameMaker 01:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, well... colour me stupid. - BalthCat 03:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to point out, as an aside, that there is only one "Solar System" in the universe. That is the star system with the star Sol, which has the planets Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and Neptune. All other systems are "star system". "Solar" is a proper name, like saying "Lunar" in reference to the moon's other name "Luna". And, by the way, there is only one Moon in the universe too. All others are "natural satellites". The name of our natural satellite is "Moon" or "Luna" if using the other name. Earth's other name is "Terra", and so on. There aren't "other moons" or "other solar systems" - unless a New Yorker could tell me that my town is "another New York". --Daniel 20:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

You're right about the Solar System, but "moon" can refer to any natural satellite orbiting a planet. UncreativeNameMaker 08:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Moving Film to Own Section

Prompted by one of the comments from the peer review, I was thinking that the discussion of Serenity should be relocated it's own section, in front of the general spin-off section. In the Alternative, the film could be given a subsection in the spin-off section. The film is unique in its importance as a spin-off and should get at least a header setting it off from other spin-offs. I would appreciate any input or commentary on this proposal.-- danntm ^T _C 00:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought that suggestion from the peer review made sense too... plange 01:14, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Those left behind is really a spin-off of the movie - while taking place before the events in the movie, and published before the movie was released, it was specifically written to bridge the gap from the series, and written after the movie script. Same with the R. Tam sessions, the RPG (tho Out in the black was published after), and KRAD's novelization. Maybe all these spin-offs should go to the movie article.

The only series spin-offs are Finding Serenity, the 2 Firefly companions (not yet published), the original novels (not yet announced with any real info), and the "Critical Studies in Television" book (not yet announced with any real info). -- Jeandré, 2006-08-16t19:40z

• Jeandré, that is a most interesting point. I might be getting too technical, but should not the spin-offs the pure spin-offs of the film be handled in Serenity (film) article. I, however, favor mentioning the R. Tam Sessions and comics in this article because they were released before the film, occur in the fictional chronologically before the film, and I believe they are considered canon. But I think something can be written in the article in the article to the effect of what you said, to note that the comics and R. Tam Sessions were designed to bridge between the series and the film.-- danntm ^T _C 01:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Book's name

ok, i was just watching Serenity's extra features and it does say his name is Meria. its on Re-lighting the Firefly on the extra Features... pause the movie and youll see it DOES say Meria... -Xornok 01:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Pause the movie and his tombstone says DERRIA. I think evidence in the actuall movie is to be counted over special features, especially since the special features have been know to be wrong (Calling the Millenium Falcon the Millenium Vulcan is one of the more well-known mistakes). JBK405 01:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

actually, the most you can 100% make out is ERRIA... the D does not even match the D in Shepherd as it does not fully close at the bottom... not to mention there is another line that could make it an M... granted, it wouldnt look like N or W from Hoban Washburne, but it could still be an M nonetheless.... I say we just call him Shepherd Book and make a note on his page that there is a debate about his first name citing different sources for Derrial, Meria, and/or Derria.... -Xornok 15:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

As noted on the Book talk page, Meria was an early version of his name and changed prior to the final version of the film, just as an early version of Zoë's name was Warrren. By the time the film came out, Whedon had changed both and in all official published sources (the novel, the RPG, the Serenity Companion and Firefly Companion (both written by Whedon), the name is given as Derrial.Shsilver 15:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Uncited statement removed

"Whedon himself maintains that the series' trademark splash (featuring Reynolds' ship Serenity soaring over a corral of unshod horses) was intended to serve as a readily digested five-second condensation or representative summary of the show."

This was removed for being uncited. (I didn't add it.) I thought having it here might prompt someone to remember where it might've been said or written down. TransUtopian 20:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I feel like that's from the DVD commentary on the pilot episode? I'd be willing to give it a look-see and find out. (Oh, an excuse to rewatch Firefly!) -- Merope 20:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that would be great-- I remember it from somewhere too, but I removed the statement so that we can encourage contributors to provide sources first instead of leaving it all up to us in one big mammoth search for sources like we had to do to get our GA nom. --plange 21:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the back of my mind says that this is a Joss comment from the pilot. EVula 21:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Changed logo

I thought that the logo looked somewhat unclear, so I changed it to a scanned copy of the DVD cover. Is this okay with everyone? ChunkySoup 19:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 18:26, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

My change was reverted with the following comment: "rv back to opening titles logo as is standard on Wikipedia."

Although it's generally standard to use the logo from the title sequence, I don't feel as though the animated logo translates very well into a still image. The image from the DVD cover seems as though it would be what Whedon would have used had the logo been a still shot.

• Opening sequence: Image:Fireflyopeninglogo.JPG
• DVD cover: Image:Firefly_logo.jpg

ChunkySoup 19:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I prefer your change, I say you change it back unless some one explains why (or where it is said) that the opening credits logo is standard (?) - BalthCat 22:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the opening logo looks better as the main image. The Wookieepedian 22:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Shall we have a vote then? Here's one for the DVD cover ChunkySoup 23:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

you dont know thats what Whedon wouldve wanted, but if we're voting, i say the opening logo stays... -Xornok 23:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I said that it might be what Whedon used, had it been a stationary logo, as it is on this page. I've never seen any site use a screenshot of the opening for promos. [2] [3] Note that the Fox site uses the same as the DVD cover, just slightly different saturation.ChunkySoup 00:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm with the DVD cover, designed as a still image. The other logo is designed to be animated, and doesn't look quite right as a still. Barnas 01:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm all in favor of the DVD cover logo, it's clear and easy to read. Kingpin1055 01:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to agree that the DVD cover logo, which is crisper then the TV screenshot, is the better image. Thus, absent any guideline to the contrary, I favor that image on the page.-- danntm ^T _C 01:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, one could argue that WP:IAR is relevant here if there is a guideline. ;) EVula 22:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

As long as we're trying to establish consensus... I like the DVD logo better. -- Merope ^{Talk to me}/_{Review me} 21:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

DVD cover, totally. EVula 22:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair use implications of changed logo

I doubt the DVD cover crop would even pass fair use, it is a set in stone standard to use a cap from the television show intro, few people would recognise that unless they actually owned the dvd. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 19:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

In looking over WP:FAIR, I don't see anything that outright states we can't use a scan of the DVD cover. The DVD cover is clearer than the screen capture, which is why we're using it instead (which fits into fair use). You'll have to cite the policy about the "set in stone" rule about intro captures before I can actually address it. EVula 19:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Thatsthe proble,. it's not the dvd cover it's self it is a cropped bit of the DVD cover, a DVD cover would likely constitute fair use. Also being better quality then the previous does not constiute fair use. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 19:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

DVD covers really only used to illustrate the DVD. ed g2s • talk 20:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

This is tough. It is unestablished territory whether a DVD cover is acceptable fair use on Wikipedia to illustrate a television show, although it is accepted to use screenshots. Therefore, to play it safe, I am reversing my self and now recommending to switch back to the TV screenshot logo, albeit of inferior quality.-- danntm ^T _C 20:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

If someone could retake it from a HDTV source then that would be peachy (or a DVD source) thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 20:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

An HDTV screencap won't make a difference. For starters, if the source isn't "HD", the resulting screencap won't be "HD". Secondly, it is an animated image; that's part of the problem. There just isn't a clear image of it... aside from the DVD case (and is the reason that a DVD scan could work under Fair Use). EVula 22:06, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I took my DVD and went frame by frame in the entire opening sequence and could not find a better image. Even if someone broke the encryption on the DVD and exported the VOB as frame by frame stills, what you have there is as good as it gets. - Trysha ^(talk) 22:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Genre introduction

I think we should just leave it as "Science fiction", since the other genres the show could be called are in the infobox right next to the discussion anyway. I certainly don't think it should be introduced as a comedy-drama, because it's -in my mind- not. It's got a few gags in it, but it's a pretty fair hop away from being a comedy of any sort, to me. Barnas 10:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I've gone one step further — I've removed the comedy-drama tag from the infobox, too. Firefly does not belong to the comedy-drama genre. Is it dramatic? Of course. Is it funny? It's quite witty and often hilarious. But that doesn't make it a comedy-drama series. IMDb backs this up by failing to include "comedy-drama" in its genre list for the show. (Although I'm not sure I would trust it too far, anyway, as it lists Firefly as "fantasy" — where the hell does that come from?) M*A*S*H is a comedy-drama. Firefly is science fiction, adventure, action, space western, etc. — it is not comedy-drama. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Psychic River = fantasy. -- Jeandré, 2006-09-28t19:47z

Psychic abilities are considered legitimate elements of science fiction, too. Fantasy usually involves magic and/or supernatural beings, without the Clarkian advanced-science POV, which would appear to be where psychic abilities come from in the Firefly universe, as opposed to the Buffy universe. (Contrast Spider and Jeanne Robinsons's Stardance SF novels, Katherine Kurtz's Deryni fantasy novels, and Julian May's deliberate mixing of the two genres in her Pliocene Exile saga, which is still considered SF.) There is nothing in Firefly that suggests the traditional aspects of the fantasy genre. In fact, Whedon seems to have deliberately cast this world as an easily recognizable combination of the Old West and the Space/Technology Age, without any trace of spells, Hobbits, or vampires. I suspect the "fantasy" label comes largely from a misapprehension by someone at IMDb that anything the creator of Buffy does must have a fantasy element to it. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 20:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, there are no fantasy aspects to Firefly... --plange 21:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Plange and Jeffq insofar as it will not be wise not to call Firefly as "Fantasy" show. IMDb, albeit comprehensive, often includes a lot of questionable information.-- danntm ^T _C 14:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Psychic abilities are, to people who use the scientific method, supernatural; and until there are reasonable and falsifiable theories for FTL and psychic ability it'll be fantasy to them.

Most people (you woudn't find consensus including it here for instance) think soft SF is still SF. Some people see any fiction with elements indistinguishable from the supernatural in it as fantasy - such a person probably OKed the fantasy classification on the IMDb page. -- Jeandré, 2006-09-29t18:31z

Until Wash is brought back by a level 8 wizard, Firefly isn't Fantasy. EVula 19:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Jeandré, "science fiction" includes both hard and soft SF, and those divisions are hardly concrete, as Hard science fiction makes clear. Would you consider FTL travel "fantasy" just because we have no clear path to it? One cannot read our Fantasy article and reasonably include Firefly in that genre. I happen to agree that psychic powers, at least in the real world thus far, are solidly in the realm of the supernatural (i.e., not scientifically demonstrated — let alone proven — in nature), but neither your nor my beliefs are relevant. We're talking about fiction genres, not application to the real world. Firefly's approach to psychic powers is not magical, and is thus not "fantasy", even though it is every bit as fantastical as FTL, mind-melding, or intelligent energy beings, from today's perspective. Of course, we're arguing about angels dancing on the head of a pin anyway, as "fantasy" isn't and hasn't been included in this article's genres. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 19:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

unproduced episodes

should we add stuff about the 8 unproduced episodes in the episode section? the scripts will be released next year with the firefly visual companion part 2... -Xornok 19:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

oooh, didn't know there were any! drool-da-rule! Anyway, back to WP, I guess it depends on the source we use before we get our hands on part 2. It needs to be a RS as I'd hate to think we'd accidentally posted fanfiction --plange 19:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

well, the very last page of the OVC (official visual companion) volume 1 says that in volume two, it will have the 8 unproduced scripts, so im pretty sure its a reliable source...

no doubting the existence of the 8, but I want to make sure that if we link to any that we say are the 8, that they are indeed the 8 that will be in part 2 --plange 20:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

or are you just asking that we mention that there are 8? If so, yes, and source the OVC:1 --plange 20:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

eh, sourcing gives me a headache. i just didnt want to mention the other 8 and have someone revert it like what happened when someone added the link to the Dead Or Alive script... -Xornok 20:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

If you are okay with copy and paste, I've already ref'ed OVC in the Malcolm Reynolds article which you can grab... --plange 20:15, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

ok, cool... -Xornok 20:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, just looked at back page and it doesn't say there will be scripts to unproduced episodes, rather that there will be the uncut shooting scripts of the 8 remaining shows, meaning the last ones not included in vol 1 (which ends at Our Mrs. Reynolds), so, unfortunately, no new scripts :-( --plange 15:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

guess i read wrong... oh well... -Xornok 19:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I was all excited-- I sure wish you had been right! --plange 20:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

yeah, me too... -Xornok 20:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Removing unsourced comparisons (again)

I have twice removed a new section called "Shows with similar themes" that is yet another attempt to draw original, unsourced comparisons between Firefly and other shows like Cowboy Bebop. This has been discussed extensively in the following talk page topics:

• Talk:Firefly (TV series)/Archive 1#Outlaw Star
• Talk:Firefly (TV series)/Archive 1#Outlaw Star Reverts
• Talk:Firefly (TV series)/Archive 1#Firefly and Outlaw Star
• Talk:Firefly (TV series)/Archive 2#A suggestion about the "See also" section
• Talk:Firefly (TV series)/Archive 2#Outlaw Star redux

Note that, as this article moved toward good-article status, we've managed to lose these comparisons and even the "See also" section. I see no reason to risk de-listing from GA just because someone simply must make these comparisons. Magic Pickle made the argument, in restoring the section, that "Intro claims the show is 'atypical' - this is OR as well." This is not a justification for adding more original research. If we really feel "atypical" is OR, it should be removed, too. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 05:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

• Fair enough, I will try to dig out some references for the comparisons, and will not add it back until I do. In the meantime can we do something about - " It presents an atypical science fiction narrative" - this is POV. The comparisons show that Firefly is not necessarily 'atypical'. This type of POV is surely a problem in GA terms as well. Magic Pickle 19:44, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks for understanding. Feel free to remove the word atypical if you feel it's OR. --plange 23:03, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Not exactly true...

"The show also features slang not used in contemporary culture (e.g. "shiny" as a synonym of "cool")." I'm probably being really pedantic, but shiny has been commonly used that way in my area for about as long as i can remember, back at least to early 80s i think.. 81.153.253.32 02:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC) Elmo

• I'm curious - where are you? I've never heard "shiny" used that way, and was struck by it on Firefly. Not throwing down a gauntlet or anything, but I'd be interested to hear where it's in use. - Corporal Tunnel 15:08, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I was a teenager in the UK in the 80's and it was never used here. I'd never heard it before Firefly so I too am curious to know where "here" is. Sophia 16:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I've been state-side for my entire life (Tennessee and 23, respectively), and I'd never heard shiny used in the same manner before. It did of course exist as a word, but not as an alternative to "cool" EVula 17:09, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

shiny was used mid to late-80's and 90's or so in reference to the idea the some people are attracted to shiny objects, much like racoons. it's been around a long time. i wouldn't say it means cool as much as 'wow' or 'bling'. it was started on a television show, maybe on fox, perhaps married with children, but certainly one that dimunized certain human's intelligence. here for me at the time would have been northern p.a. then washington d.c.--Buridan 17:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

• I know "shiny" as a joke about distraction: "I have no attention span to speak of, and -- ooo, shiny!" (In fact, I'm pretty sure Oz says something like this in Buffy, since we're in the Whedonverse.) That's very different from the use in Firefly, though. And I've never heard it used as in Firefly in my stints in New York, Boston, and Dallas. - Corporal Tunnel 17:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I've heard the "ooh, shiny!" bit too. Firefly's use of the word is totally different. EVula 19:16, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm with EVula, Corporal Tunnel, etc. here. I've never hears "shiny" used as a synonym of cool. If you could provide verification to the contrary, that would be great.-- danntm ^T _C 19:57, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm clearly in the minority here so i guess it must just be a local or subculture thing then. I'm (UK) but it could just be a local surfer thing maybe. Best forget about it :S heh like i said just being really pedantic :P viva la coincidence! 81.153.253.32 02:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC) Elmo

It's been used in Phoenix, Arizona since at least the 80's as well. Rihk 05:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

DVD Release section

Should the DVD Release section be moved to List of Firefly episodes? Most other shows have the DVD info on the episode page, so I'm wondering if the whole section should be moved, or just add the basics of the DVD release to the episodes page. JQF 15:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Getting ready for WP:FAC

I think we're close! I wanted to see if we could put our shoulders to the wheel and get the article ready for WP:FAC, what do you guys think? Here's some things I thought of, what else needs doing?

• finish incorporating any valid suggestions from our peer review. I think I got most, but here are some open issues:
  • Did we decide what to do here about Serenity film having its own section? I think the original point from the peer review is still valid. Here's what the reviewer said: "I cannot wrap my head around having the movie, which is clearly the most important spin-off, relegated after the books and comics. I'm not even sure the movie deserves to be called a spin-off - it seems rather more than that, and it seems to me like an expansion of the movie section would be reasonable - things like how it did and what plot threads it picked up on"
  • Whether or not it's really needed to get into where it aired everywhere and in what order. Perhaps this could go on the new List of episodes page instead?
  • Mentioning unique dialog in Signature show elements. I think we can find sourced info on this in Finding Serenity. I left my copy at work, so can't add until tomorrow.
• Since we moved the list of episodes to an article, we need to have a summary section here I think. I took a stab, but I think it still needs work.

What else? --plange 06:22, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• I'll support Serenity having its own section, before the spin-offs. I also think that the airing order could go into the List of episodes page. And I'll take a look at list of episodes summary and see what I can do.-- danntm ^T _C 15:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I everyone okay with the change Wookiepedian just made which is different than what was suggested in the peer review (having film outside of spin-off?) --plange 16:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

International section

Can we please remove / drastically rewrite the International section? Seems to me it's dull as dishwater and supplies information of little interest (what's the point listing every country in the world and when it first aired, and in what order?) --Oscarthecat 17:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree, so did a reviewer (see my note in section just above this). I think it should either be moved to the List of episodes or deleted. I know someone went to a lot of work, but am wondering if it's encyclopedic? --plange 18:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it might have some use, but it only has any context in List of episodes, and thus I support moving it there.-- danntm ^T _C 18:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I, too, think it would be better served on List of Firefly episodes. EVula 18:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, am moving it now... --plange 18:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Done, this had the added benefit of helping to flesh out the Episodes section... What about the suggestion above about moving the DVD release to the Episode page? If we do that, we should just make a short mention of the DVD release in the Episodes and broadcast history section. --plange 19:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Asian characters

The theme of a merging of east and west in human culture, with Chinese being spoken along with English, and some of the core worlds apparently being based on eastern asian culture, why then are none of the main characters in Firefly asian, and, indeed none of the supporting characters are asian? I think this might be grounds for a brief mention in the article. It was always something that bothered me. What do others think? Magic Pickle 12:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

We can't mention our own commentary, though you could if you could source it to a source that meets WP:V. I remember reading somewhere that it was that there were two core planets, with Asia controlling one, and the US the other and so presumably we're following the folks spread out from that one. Kaylee was supposed to be Asian I think, but they cast Jewel instead. Presumably Simon and River have Asian ancestry (last name of Tam). In the end, we're speculating, and speculation cannot go into the article. See WP:OR. --plange 15:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I think I remember hearing something about the whole China/America thing in the Train Job commentary (my DVDs are still loaned out, though, so I can't verify if the episode even has a commentary track or not). I also remember Joss saying something about the melding of the two worlds in the Serenity commentary (dunno the chapter, but its when they land on the planet where they are going to leave the Tams). EVula 16:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes I listened to the commentary on the DVDs. Personally I find it strange that you would have, in the far future, an 'asian planet' and a 'Western' planet - there would surely be a melding of the two cultures (and more) whenever you find humanity. Instead of people talking English and then oddly switching to Chinese, the language would also meld, with Anglicised versions of Chinese words entering the language and vice versa. We would probably find it hard to understand at all. The idea that the characters we follow in the show are from the 'western' planets seems a bit silly - has multiculturalism stopped happening? So, as Evula mentions, the two worlds have melded later on, why are we not seeing any asian characters? This is a problem I have with the idea that Firefly is a believable version of the future. It may have benefits as a theme for drama, but isn't very believable. But obviously this is my lowly opinion only. If I can find a source for Kayleigh's character originally being asian, that might be worth adding? Magic Pickle 19:30, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it comes down to, unfortunately, the fact that it had to air to American audiences. You'll have to ask Joss. Maybe FOX nixed having Asian characters? Who knows. You do see the melding and fusion when they land on planets (Asian characters are all over), it's just not the main ones. There's several essays in Finding Serenity about this very topic, one a criticism, and the other an explanation... --plange 22:50, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

{{quotation}}

I missed that the quotation template I'd inserted had been removed when I added more later. Sorry!; as such, I reverted myself. However, where in the MoS does it say we aren't allowed to use wiki quotation templates, but we can use html (basically just indention)? — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 17:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Direct quotations is what you're looking for. EVula 17:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep, the only time you should use that style (or some of the others that place them in boxes and colors them) are when doing "pull quotes" like magazines do: the quote isn't part of the flow of the article, but is instead used as a highlight outside of the flow of the prose to highlight that section. Sort of like how images illustrate that section, but are not part of the flow of the prose. For a good example, see Demosthenes (they use blue ones). --plange 18:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Variety cite

A little while ago I added a tag to the section on how the ratings suffered due to episodes being shown out of order. That tag's gone and the section now reads: "Variety magazine cited several actions by the FOX network that contributed to the low ratings, most notably the fact that FOX aired the episodes out of chronological order" Only... the Variety piece doesn't actually mention that at all. It talks of sporting pre-emption, but nothing on reordering or delaying of the pilot. S'why I added the citation tag.--Nalvage 16:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, you're right-- confusion ensued when the original sentence was changed from saying Browncoats/fans attributed it to... to the one that took out saying it was fans, see [4], from someone reviewing for FAC. Will look up cites; I'm just coming off a week-long wikibreak... --plange 16:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

And I managed to add to the confusion by accidentally removing the Variety ref when reverting the removal of my cite tag. Somehow it'll all work itself out...--Nalvage 17:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that this is a featured article...

should we request it to be a "Today's featured article"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JQF (talk • contribs)

Hell yeah. :) EVula // talk // ☯ // 15:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm good with that.-- danntm ^T _C 18:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Me three! Who wants to take a stab at writing the condensed lead? --plange 22:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

A very, very brief and basic attempt to hash together and shortern the lead into one paragraph:

"Firefly is an American science fiction cult television series that premiered in the United States and Canada on September 20, 2002. Its naturalistic future setting, modeled after traditional Western movie motifs and featuring a fusion of western and Chinese culture, presents an atypical science fiction backdrop for the narrative. It was conceived by writer and director Joss Whedon, creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel, under his production tag, Mutant Enemy. The series is set in 2517 AD and follows the adventures of the renegade crew of Serenity, a Firefly-class spaceship. The show explores the vicissitudes of people who fought on the losing side of a civil war, as well as the pioneer culture that exists on the fringes of their star system. Firefly was originally broadcast on the FOX network but was cancelled after only eleven of the fourteen produced episodes were aired. Strong fan support and DVD sales convinced Universal Pictures to create a film based on the series, titled Serenity after the fictional spaceship featured in the show."

Feel free to pick apart and the like. It's basically just what we have already in the text, with my really cursory edits and shortenings. Barnas 23:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

How about this more concise version, with formatting and links, that should fit into a main-page summary box:

Firefly is a science fiction TV series that premiered in the U.S. and Canada in 2002. Its naturalistic future setting is modeled after Western movies and features a fusion of western and Chinese cultures. It was conceived by writer and director Joss Whedon, creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel. Firefly follows the adventures of the renegades of spaceship Serenity, exploring the vicissitudes of people who fought on the losing side of a civil war, as well as the pioneer culture on the fringes of their star system. Firefly aired on the FOX network but was cancelled after only 11 of 14 episodes. Strong fan support led to a film based on the series.

It says pretty much the same things, but without unnecessary detail and verbiage for a tight, attention-grabbing paragraph. (Or so I hope. ☺) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Shiny! The only part I'd like to tweak is how it makes the spaceship sound like it's exploring people a la Fantastic Voyage (I also change US to United States per MoS)... How about:

Firefly is a science fiction TV series that premiered in the United States and Canada in 2002. Set 500 years in the future, it blends a naturalistic future with the Western genre, as well as a fusion of Occidental and Chinese cultures. It was conceived by writer and director Joss Whedon, creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel. Firefly follows the adventures of the renegades of spaceship Serenity, and explores the vicissitudes of people who fought on the losing side of a civil war, as well as the pioneer culture on the fringes of their star system. Firefly aired on the FOX network but was cancelled after only 11 of 14 episodes. Strong fan support led to a film based on the series.

--plange 03:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Serenity may be a character, but I guess she's not quite that interpersonal. ☺ Seriously, this sounds fine. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:25, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Just a quick change, adding a definate article to "spaceship Serenity"

Firefly is a science fiction TV series that premiered in the United States and Canada in 2002. Set 500 years in the future, it blends a naturalistic future with the Western genre, as well as a fusion of Occidental and Chinese cultures. It was conceived by writer and director Joss Whedon, creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel. Firefly follows the adventures of the renegades of the spaceship Serenity, and explores the vicissitudes of people who fought on the losing side of a civil war, as well as the pioneer culture on the fringes of their star system. Firefly aired on the FOX network but was cancelled after only 11 of 14 episodes. Strong fan support led to a film based on the series.

--Barnas 17:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)