Talk:Ukraine

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Maidan = square

As noted here: "The Euromaidan (Ukrainian: Євромайдан, literally "Eurosquare")" "maidan" is Ukrainian for the English "square."

Hence, "Maidan Nezalezhnosti square" later on belongs in the Department of Redundancy Department. It should read "Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Nezalezhnosti square)." I didn't notice if that mistake was made other places, but it should be corrected. Thanks.

Minor: link to Wikipedia Podzol page in soil section.

In the soil section podzolized soil is mentioned. Might it not be reasonable to link podzolized to the Podzol Wikipedia page as it is an obscure reference.

Infobox

Paul Siebert, ([1]), regarding this the statement "was not a state, and not even a puppet state" is true, but careful with the rest, because the so-called "international community" does not equal with the Allies, especially in such conditions when practically one side generally recognize some creations whole or partially, and the other systematically not (or in many cases even parties by one side do not recognize some things). I draw the attention to this just becuase if the latter would be applied in the infobox, then the West UPR or Ukrainan People's Rep could be also removed, because they were unrecognized and partially recognized states, respectively. Cheers(KIENGIR (talk) 19:49, 13 June 2019 (UTC))

Well, the Axis didn't recognise the Reickomissariat as a state either. And, if we do that in the Ukraine article, why don't we do the same for Czech republic, Poland, etc? There were several Reichskomissariates in the Third Reich.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:09, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I also acknowledged it was not a state. As you can see, I did not contest your edit, just precisity lead me to this issue. In other words, I have no problem if "Reichskomissariat" Ukraine of any of such is present in any other articles as well, but any removal should not be based on just "recognition", because then many other's may fall..(KIENGIR (talk) 21:23, 13 June 2019 (UTC))

Foreign relations section

I've just removed the addition of "In the 2011 poll, 49% of Ukrainians said they had relatives living in Russia." to an inappropriate (i.e., WP:UNDUE) addition to the Foreign relations section here, which was quickly followed up by a revert by another editor here. The paragraph has become a hodge-podge of information with the introduced information being gratuitous to more generalized, big picture historical nature of such a section in an article of this scope. Such content may be relevant to other articles specifically dedicated to Russian-Ukrainian relationships, but not in this section (particularly in light of the POINTy source being used). IMHO, it's a perfect example of WP:NOTEVERYTHING when it comes to context.

Are there any editors who'd be kind enough to explain why WP:ITSIMPORTANT and meets with WEIGHT in the manner in which it was placed? Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:20, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy:, I agree with SharabSalam, the information is very brief, relevant (Russia hosts the world's largest Ukrainian diaspora), the poll was conducted by the Research & Branding Group. -- Tobby72 (talk) 19:25, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

SharabSalam hasn't responded here, although he (I'm going by his user page where he identifies as a male, so I'm not using s/he) must be aware of your ping as he fixed a minor error through the submission below long after I started this new thread. If he still believes that it meets with DUE, he's welcome to state his case, but there are two other contributors who agree with my interpretation. Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:03, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, I have said my personal perspective: the paragraph is relevant and brief. I understand your argument but this is a subjective argument there is no objective argument here. I was just waiting for more editors to say their own personal opinion about this.--SharabSalam (talk) 02:26, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

No, you're implying that your argument is not subjective, and by that rationale all content is subjective. Every article is potentially floating in a sea of potential WP:ITSINTERESTING content, but that doesn't mean that it's right for the scope of the article, or for the very context in which it's presented. You don't see that, as has been noted, it doesn't even work in the context (i.e., it simply doesn't fit with the other information). If it were to have some form of relevance or meaning here, it would need to be balanced out by statistics for the number of Ukrainians with relatives living in Poland (also high, although I don't have recent stats to hand)... and other places in Europe. The only common denominator is that Russia was invoked. How does this 2011 poll talking about 49% having relatives in Russia fit into "Ukraine long had close ties with all its neighbours, but Russia–Ukraine relations became difficult in 2014 by the annexation of Crimea, energy dependence and payment disputes. There are also tensions with Poland and Hungary."? Not only is it taken from a (derisive) opinion piece with a point to make, and qualified by "The views expressed in this article are the author's own and do not necessarily reflect Al Jazeera's editorial stance.", have you actually looked at the linked article (in Russian, but you should be able to make sense of it with Google Translate) from whence these responses were elicited? There's a fair amount covered, and it doesn't actually mention how many of these people were Russian residents in Ukraine, or first generation Russians, or how long these relatives were going to be living in Russia: in fact, there simply aren't any details as to how many were in the sample group, which part of Ukraine was predominantly represented, or how participants were chosen. It was also taken in 2011, therefore would include a significant portion of those living in Crimea and separatist held areas. So, please explain to me how this fits into the paragraph, and why it is should be included where it isn't significant and tell me that you're following WP:NPOV and just simple WP:COMMONSENSE, please. Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:50, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Agree with Irina Harpy that this is UNDUE and POINTy and should be removed. --Khajidha (talk) 19:30, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Also agree with Iryna Harpy. It also didn't fit into the paragraph at all.--Ermenrich (talk) 22:06, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

@Tobby72: You've probably noticed, as I know the article would be on your watch list, but just to let you know that SharabSalam has added this content to the Ukrainians article where it is actually appropriate. I'm still a little dubious about the use of the Al Jazeera source. My preference would be for using the Russian language article (here) referenced for the figure, but I know that English language sources are preferred on English Wikipedia. I know this is a little off topic for this page but, as there's a new thread here and no discussion on the the article for ages, it might be useful to have interested editors opine as to the source here. If it's preferred that that article's talk page be used, I'm happy to bring it up there. Just thought I'd save myself - and other contributors - a bit of time on having to waffle on through this again. Cheers, all. Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:22, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

I've found another secondary source, but it's from the same author.[2] -- Tobby72 (talk) 19:22, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Hmm. It's still an incidental in another highly politically charged article, except that this time it targets Putin. I'd prefer to stay away from what is sort of WP:CHERRY, but not (if if you know what I mean). I'm really tempted to use the Lenta source despite its not being in English. We use non-English sources for demographics regularly, so I think that'd be a better way of handling it. Iryna Harpy (talk) 07:44, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Maybe you're right. Personally, I have no objections. -- Tobby72 (talk) 06:49, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

To be honest, on reflection, I don't think it's that big a deal for that article. I'm good with leaving it with your original reference, but I might get around to changing it. I'm certainly not that concerned that I think it's worth bending over backwards to change. Cheers, Tobby72. Iryna Harpy (talk) 07:34, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

World War II section

I'm not going to try to detract from the murky waters of massacres of Polish people by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, but the WWII section only covers the most cursory details of the massive number of events that took place on (and off) Ukrainian territory. The loss of Ukrainian, Jewish and other Soviet lives are quickly enumerated. In contrast to these salient details, we have a contributor wishing to elaborate even further on details here and here. Not only is it a complex issue, it involved a tiny volunteer army of 100,000 or so Ukrainians. It is certainly a political football still looming (fairly) large in Polish-Ukrainian relations, but it's already skimming being over-stretched in the incarnation it currently appears in. Any more detail is certainly out of scope per WP:WEIGHT. This is a broad-scope article on Ukraine, not Poland and Poles. If Holodomor can be skimmed over in the between the wars section, and the details of the ensuing war barely touched on in general in the section in question, there is no justification for this elaboration outside of coat-racking. Details, including contemporary political issues, are dealt with in appropriate articles. Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:31, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't really have any objections to E-960's put in the estimate of how many Poles were estimated to have been killed by the UPA (ergo I self-reverted after asking him to discuss it further here as was originally requested), but I still think that the section is awkwardly written. Any thoughts from other editors who are actually familiar with this area of Eastern European history as pertains to what is relevant to that section, and as opposed to current day political repercussions and ramifications? Iryna Harpy (talk) 07:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2019

Change "annexed by Russia (light green) --> "Annexed by Russia (light green)" in info box. Tanner^{message me} 22:05, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

 Done--SharabSalam (talk) 22:15, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Demographics

Here's my suggestion for how to improve the article.[3] Thoughts? -- Tobby72 (talk) 14:05, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

I can see what you are getting at with a better date order. But the 2nd para (ethnic groups) sits awkwardly in the date flow. As an experiment I'll bring that out into its own (tiny) section, and also try to reduce the image crunch on the right (though my solution is a bit awkward). What do you think? Rwendland (talk) 17:16, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. Thanks. -- Tobby72 (talk) 20:48, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Ukraine is located in Central Europe partially

The Wikipedia article about Ukraine in Ukrainian language claims that Ukraine is located in Central Europe partially. Probably it means the Westernmost part of Ukraine. I don't see why not to include the same mention in the English version, especially as Wikipedia doesn't provide strict definition of Central Europe and some variants of the definitions they propose include the Westernmost part of Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Grossgliederung_Europas-en.svg— Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.222.146.79 (talk) 07:18, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Absolute rubbish. Only the western region which constitutes about 10% of the entire area of Ukraine can be classified as Central Europe. Ukrainian Wikipedia is highly biased with own interpretations by Ukrainian users who desire to be more Central than Eastern. Oliszydlowski (talk) 11:41, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

But this is exactly point. The Wikipedia article about Ukraine in Ukrainian states that Ukraine is a country "which is located in Eastern and partially in Central Europe". I don't see why not to make exactly the same definition in English, as at least 10% of the country is located in Central Europe. So, what is the problem here?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.222.146.79 (talk) 13:23, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Given the ambiguity of the definitions of "Central Europe", we can't even say for certain that ANY of Ukraine is in Central Europe. Or even that Central Europe, as a separate region actually exists. In English language sources, Ukraine is characterized as Eastern Europe. --Khajidha (talk) 13:34, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Also, countries are generally not split between regions in English sources. Notice that France is not described in its article as "partially in Southern Europe" even though that map supports that position as much as it supports your position that "Ukraine is in Central Europe". --Khajidha (talk) 13:37, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Khajidha, are you Wikipedia appointed official moderator of this article about Ukraine? If yes, with all the respect to you, could I know what is you background? Does it have to do something with Europe? Where is your interest in Ukraine come from??? According to general Wikipedia policies everyone can modify pages. I want to modify it, and if I'm not permitted to, then my opponents suppose to provide very sound arguments. For now I don't see it. Only some "fortune telling". Wikipedia defines Germany as a country in "Central and Western Europe" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany; Switzerland as a country in "Western, Central and Southern Europe" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland; Romania as a country "located at the crossroads of Central, Eastern, and Southeastern Europe" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania; Chroatia - is a country "at the crossroads of Central and Southeast Europe" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia. So, Ukraine perfectly fits in the same row.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.222.146.79 (talk) 14:37, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Khajidha is absolutely correct. English language sources overwhelmingly place Ukraine in Eastern Europe. He is also correct that these definitions of "Central" and "Eastern" Europe are not actual entities, but general designations by geographers that vary from one geographer to the next. There is no such thing as "Eastern Europe" or "Central Europe" in an absolute, objective sense. They are all abstract constructs and have no fixed size or shape. --Taivo (talk) 16:12, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

I suspect there's been some WP:BAIT-taking from the same IP responsible for this malarkey whereby they declare their intention to ... to change the statement that Russia is located in Eastern Europe and Northern Asia to the more correct statement it is located in Central Europe, Eastern Europe and Asia, because Kaliningrad region (which is part of Russia) is located in Central Europe. There's been some jumping the gun regarding this being a nationalist agenda. The IP has done nothing to make any actual changes, but seems more interested in trying to get a rise out of someone/anyone. I suggest following WP:DENY should they return (unless, of course, they actually try to make changes to the content of the articles. Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:16, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Ukrainian traditional clothing

I think there should be a section for traditional costume of Ukrainian people as part of the culture portion of the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Berehinia (talk • contribs) 03:17, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 August 2019

Hello I saw that this article has dead links and I have actual links for users!DianaMakov (talk) 12:42, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

DianaMakov Which links are you referring to? And what are the actual links? Thanks.--SharabSalam (talk) 13:44, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

linguistic and official name controversy

Could you please replace the phrase "sometimes called the Ukraine" with "previously called the Ukraine" to emphasise the fact that, according to grammar rules of contemporary English, "Ukraine" is used without THE (like many other countries' names of that kind), except for the term referring to its certain past periods. It is also used with NO article because modern Ukraine with its OFFICIAL name UKRAINE is now an independant country, unitary republic - it is NOT part of something anymore and NOT a federation as well. Millions of people read Wikipedia everyday, so it should offer true, grammatically correct information. As a linguist, English teacher and Ukrainian citizen, I have to say that it is a very important issue and there should be NO ambiguous points of view concerning the official name of my country. The phrase "sometimes called the Ukraine" says that people can use it as well BUT it is incorrect from historical and linguisctic perspectives. Thus, the phrase "previously called the Ukraine" would show that it is already in the past and now the only name, which is UKRAINE, is possible. I would be very grateful for these changes made as soon as possible. Kind regards, 217.77.212.60 (talk) 19:05, 28 September 2019 (UTC)Tetiana

But people still do say "the Ukraine" and, while it does not follow the usual rules, it is still grammatically correct because "the Ukraine" version is an established exception to that rule. --Khajidha (talk) 19:56, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

@217.77.212.60: Instead of your proposed "sometimes called the Ukraine" the phrase should actually state sometimes incorrectly called "the Ukraine": every single respectable large English-language news organization in the world explicitly states in their Stylebooks that it is only correct to write "Ukraine" and that "the Ukraine" is grammatically incorrect. Please see the list of all major US/British media Styleguides on this:

US Media:

• NPR Styleguide: "Ukraine, not "the Ukraine"" (online html version)
• AP Stylebook: "Ukraine (no the)" (online html version)
• The New York Times Style Guide: "Ukraine, Ukrainian (not "the Ukraine")." (Amazon kindle version)
• The Wall Street Journal Stylebook: " Always write Ukraine. Don't use the article the" (Amazon kindle version)

UK Media:

• The Guardian and Observer Style guide: "Ukraine no “the”; adjective Ukrainian"" (online html version)
• The BBC News Styleguide "Ukraine. And not "The Ukraine"" (online html version)
• The Economist Style guide "Do not use the definite article before: [...] Ukraine"" (Amazon kindle version)
• Reuters Style guide "Ukraine not "the Ukraine"" (online html version)
• The Telegraph Style book "Ukraine - (not the Ukraine)"" (online html version)
• Financial Times Style guide Always "Ukraine" never "the Ukraine"" (Amazon printed version)

Also asking for comment from @Roman Spinner:, who is one of the very few English WP editors who is academically knowledgeable in Ukraine-related topics.--Piznajko (talk) 00:12, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Nope, sorry. It is correct because for literal centuries it was how it was said. That it is no longer the preferred version, doesn't make it incorrect. --Khajidha (talk) 00:15, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Also, the links above that I could access did not say that "the Ukraine" was grammatically incorrect, just that it is not to be used. You are making the assumption that grammar was their motivation, while it could just be "political correctness". --Khajidha (talk) 00:24, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Any news media Styleguide is an English grammar style and usage guide created by journalists. There's no political agenda or correctness in news media Styleguides --Piznajko (talk) 00:27, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

The entry for Palestinian in the NPR link above disproves your assertion that these guides are just grammar guides and totally apolitical. There is nothing in that entry that is about grammar. --Khajidha (talk) 00:34, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

It would actually be incorrect to state that it is sometimes incorrectly called "the Ukraine". As noted by Khajidha, it was certainly grammatically correct, and remains grammatically correct. Accepted practice in guidelines used by various institutions since independence drops/dropped 'the' from the name of the nation-state, and use of the definite article has become anachronistic, but this is certainly not the same thing as its use as being incorrect. I've never seen an English language (Anglophone) grammar book asserting that the use of the definite article is wrong. At some point in the future, it may not be used at all. When/if that happens it would be appropriate to note that it was called 'the Ukraine', but that such usage has become anachronistic. That will only be correct and noteworthy when the Anglophone world demonstrably no longer refers to Ukraine as 'the Ukraine' any longer. Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:00, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Numerous outdated terms referring to geographical locations and ethnicity are still in common use, but those terms, when referenced in Wikipedia articles, already are or need to be qualified as being outdated. "The Ukraine" is one such outdated term and, unlike the unresolved, as of this writing, conflict among key media stylebooks over the spelling of "Kyiv", there is no such stylebook conflict, as detailed above by @Piznajko: regarding "the Ukraine", which is considered outdated by all stylebooks and should be unequivocally specified within the article's lead sentence as a historical form which is now outdated. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:14, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with @Roman Spinner:. Also, upon further examination of article's introductory paragraphs, it became apparent that the phrase "sometimes called the Ukraine" should simply be removed from the Lead section, since this is an incorrect archaic spelling that does not warrant space in the Lead Section per MOS:LEAD. Including information about the incorrect and archaic "the Ukraine" spelling int the Lead section is WP:UNDUE. The article already has a section "Etymology and orthography" (which I now renamed [4] from "Etymology" to "Etymology and orthography" given that more that half of that section talks about "Ukraine" vs. "the Ukraine" spelling) which talks in detail about "Ukraine" vs. "the Ukraine" spelling. Furthermore, I do think that the section "Etymology and orthography" right now suffers heavily from WP:NPOV and WP:Grammar issues and it incorrectly states that it is still grammatically correct to write "the Ukraine" (quote, the Ukraine has become less common in the English-speaking world - this should be changed and it should be stated clearly that there is complete consensus among major English language Stylebooks regarding the fact that the only gramatically correct spelling is simply "Ukraine".--Piznajko (talk) 02:19, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Again, these are stylebooks NOT grammar texts. "The Ukraine" is out of style, but these books are not written to make pronouncements about grammar. --Khajidha (talk) 03:57, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, this is getting plain silly. We seem to have contributors conflating the function of grammar and style manuals, consequently creating protracted arguments based on a this misunderstanding. What the issue seems to be here is a consistency of style across nation-state articles with regards to this change in usage of the definite article, and whether 'the Ukraine' is still being used commonly enough to justify such a prominent note in the lead. Given that this article is being used to support the use of the definite article, I can honestly say that I'm currently on the fence on this content issue. Having checked the corresponding articles for Sudan, Netherlands, Lebanon et al., some carry a prominent mention of the use of the definite article, others do not. The fact is that the BBC article does not claim that this usage is still common, but that it did exist (and is sometimes still used: certainly in the case of the Netherlands, yet this is an instance in which it is omitted from the inception, possibly due to moving straight into the usage of 'Holland' in the English language). In a nutshell, if it's deemed to be immportant, I think it's an RfC issue which needs to be properly constructed and put to editors. The current objections are mistaken as we're not here to teach the reader anything, nor to attempt to redress perceived wrongs. Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:48, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

In addition to depending upon its own WP:Manual of Style, Wikipedia rarely if ever contradicts unanimous guidelines specified within other stylebooks. Thus, if all media stylebooks in the English-speaking world are in unison regarding deprecated use of "the Ukraine", the text in the lead sentence of Wikipedia's entry for Ukraine, "sometimes called the Ukraine" should be either deleted, moved under section header "Etymology and orthography" or revised so that the text makes it unequivocally clear (for example, sometimes called / occasionally referenced by its outdated name the Ukraine) that "the Ukraine" is no longer a professionally acceptable alternative form for Ukraine. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:59, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

I have no objection to removing it from the intro on grounds of undue weight. The only change I would make to the etymology section is to put the attribution to Taylor before his quote. --Khajidha (talk) 19:39, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

I do wonder exactly which part of "also known as" or "sometimes called" you are interpreting as making any sort of statement about whether it should be used. It reads to me as a simple statement of fact letting people know that they may encounter such usage. --Khajidha (talk) 15:53, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

@Khajidha: I am sorry but "also known as" or "sometimes called" in the introduction have no relation to the current official name of the country. Also, the term "The Ukraine" with such a note just gives some unnecessary reasons to call the country with the wrong name again and again in modern context, which is not quite right. It can be only used as a historical term regarding some specific periods and it should not confuse the reader. I suggest putting "used in very specific historical context: limited use" or something like that just in order to show that there is such a term but it is definitely a very specific one. 217.77.212.60 (talk) 21:24, 30 September 2019 (UTC)217.77.212.60 (talk) 21:31, 30 September 2019 (UTC) Tetiana

Capital name

Can you please correct the spelling of Ukraine's capital to "Kyiv", not Kiev.

Kiev is the Russian transliteration, while Kyiv is the Ukrainian one. Using the Russian spelling affirms this “condescending view that Russians have” of the country. ChrisRaz16 (talk) 01:01, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

The discussion concerning that very subject was still receiving comments as of today at Talk:Kiev/naming#Thousands of US newspapers use AP style guide, so.... —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:38, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

As has been said before, it is not a transliteration at all. It is the accepted English exonym. --Khajidha (talk) 03:44, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

@Roman Spinner:, @Khajidha: You know, history makes changes. There are famous archaic English exonyms such as Byzantium and Constantinople. And here, in Wikipedia you write "Istanbul, formerly known as Byzantium and Constantinople, ..." Speaking of "Kyiv", our country brought back the ancient pronunciation of its capital Kyiv that's why the spelling was changed more presicely. We currently write "Kyiv", our schoolchildren learn it as the only correct spelling because in all international official documents it is "Kyiv", not "Kiev". Again, firstly, yes, Wikipedia carries an informative function but it cannot be opposite to the educational function. If a lot of US newspapers are still not aware of some changes, then something should be done about it - and I am sure it will happen one day. Secondly, if you refuse to omit "Kiev", could you please at least put it in the second place after "Kyiv" with the note "Kyiv" is currently used in all intenational official/state documents", "Kiev is just another English exonym which is yet used by some media and still historically well known all over the world"? btw. On Google Maps you will only find "Kyiv" not "Kiev". Thank you for your thorough work and discussion. 217.77.212.60 (talk) 22:19, 30 September 2019 (UTC) 217.77.212.60 (talk) 22:22, 30 September 2019 (UTC)Tetiana