Talk:Skin-walker

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2018 and 18 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MythologyClass (article contribs).

Source of Navajo lore

Never seen a redirected talk page before. Is there any source from which the Navajo lore came from? ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Similarity of terms does not necessarily mean literal equivalence

Simply because two totally dissimilar Norwegian and Navajo terms happen to be able to both be literally translated into English as "skin-walker", doesn't necessarily mean that the two concepts are identical, even if they are similar in the cultural and behavioral attributes assigned to them. I would suggest that this is especially true in this case, where the geographical and historical cultural separation is so great. It pays to be very careful in these sorts of situations, where it's possible to collapse these kinds of distinctly different cultural categories into one another simply for our own ease of conceptualization, or because one category is more amenable to us because of our own cultural biases. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 18:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Especially since the Navajo term literally translates as "by means of it he goes on all fours" (lots of Navajo nouns are actually terpsimbrotoi), and the Old Norse terms translate, respectively, as "bear shirt" (berserker), "wolf-coat" or "wolf-hood" (ulfheðnar), and "shape-journey" (hamfarir). Also skinwalkers are always evil in Navajo thought, while berserkers are one of those "Indo-European Warrior Society" complexes, who don't play by the normal society's rules, but they're definitely seen as somewhat admirable (the Fianna would probably be another example). The Olmec Jaguar-men might have been comparable to berserkers, as might be the West African anioto societies (leopard men), but there's nothing in the New World north of Mexico that's comparable to a berserker. Nagakura shin8 (talk) 21:23, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Article history

Due to quite a bit of moving and back and forth the early history and discussion of this article are over at Skin-walker (disambiguation) (specifically the last version before what seems to have been some copy and editing moving is here. It might be possible to fix this although I'm not sure how after so long so I'll just leave the note here so anyone interested can go back through previous discussion and edits. (Emperor (talk) 02:35, 28 August 2009 (UTC)) I have inserted the following in the References section for it's relevancy on the subject: Colm A. Kelleher and George Knapp, "Hunt for the Skinwalker". (paraview Pocket Books). Acorn897 (talk) 23:07, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

edit january 5

Can editors please reconcile their differences of opinion? I prefer to let you do it (not me). Good luck,Super48paul (talk) 11:59, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Coale citation

In this edit, CorbieVreccan, you removed multiple sources so let's discuss them. Looking over the history, the popular culture section got dumb so I get not giving Hillerman an excessive mention. Nevertheless, Samuel Coale is an academic source who is describing what is the actual accurate portrayal of skinwalkers and of Navajo culture and contrasting that with the misuse by Hillerman (and the film). The fact that it's being discussed in the context of a film doesn't make the discussion about the culture any less accurate. The only use would be for the rooftops and the infant bones and evil spells at this point. Is there any indication that Coale is actually wrong? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:55, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Once this is cleaned up there's not enough for a proper article and it should be merged. I think at that point Coale could be used to cite that Hillerman is inaccurate. I can get another source for that, as well. I think it's useful that he says Hillerman isn't accurate, but I don't think he's WP:RS for Dineh culture itself. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 15:36, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Here's some more on Hillerman. It's the official site of Prof. Deb Reese (Nambe Pueblo). She does host it on blogspot, but her CV makes her reliable on this: "Tony Hillerman" at American Indians in Children's Literature, here quoting postdoctoral fellow, Larry Emerson, Dine (Navajo):

'Tony Hillerman privileged & authorized himself to write about Navajos & in doing so appropriated, re-imagined, and recreated "Hillerman Navajos" at the expense of Diné realities. Hillerman created a new domain [read dominion] of knowledge while cashing in at the same time.'

- CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 16:30, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Expansion

This article is underdeveloped, and is missing a significant portion of information on its subject. It needs to be expanded in more detail with all aspects of Skin-Walkers added to the article with proper citations for its information. Information such as descriptions of Skin-Walkers from different Native American tribes that mention them should be added with proper citations. Also there should be information on the creature's appearances and references in popular culture (although it shouldn't be added in a bullet point and trivial format), and appearances in cryptozoology. This article has potential, but it needs to have work done to it so that it fully covers its subject. Hopefully this happens since this article is very interesting.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:38, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

I got a number of books recommended by the Skinwalker subreddit. I plan to expand this article, so others don't have to buy expensive books to access the same information. I'm not well-versed in Wikipedia organization and citation, but I'll be bold and trust that others can format my contributions. --OGoncho (talk) 02:30, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

With regard to the source thing, I can understand why people would be reluctant to take Teller/Blackwater as an accurate resource. When sourcing the book, I was trying to only reference things it seemed like the authors already knew about the legend prior to their spiritual exploration that they insist changes the rules. I think Kluckhohn and Brady are good resources because they were writing down actual stories actual Navajos shared and then found the commonalities and made sociological analysis. As for the news article stuff, I get that they don't hold much weight. --OGoncho (talk) 20:00, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Tone

I think there's a tonal issue in the handling of the description of Navajo culture. It might be a little too "woo-woo, mysterious other". Like, the thing about Natives not wanting to share details of Native spirituality with Anglo authors who are not motivated to frame it respectfully isn't described as a note about those of a spiritual belief system and practice so much as an inscrutable other. I think it reads like a D&D book's description of a fantasy culture. --OGoncho (talk) 10:46, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Read Adrienne Keene's explanation. This article should have been deleted. It was about to be, and then came the censorship argument from people who don't know anything about the cultural perspective on this and it stayed. This topic is not something meant for public discussion, and it's already covered better in the Witchcraft article, and better contextualized in the other articles on cultures. But people who think this is just some fantasy-fiction thing, or something everyone gets to learn about, wanted a standalone article. So we wind up with trivia and speculation, some of it downright racist fabrications, written by people who don't know what they're talking about, used as sources. Or we cite the few RS sources that say it's not anyone else's business. I know this might sound "woo-woo" or othering to people who don't know anything about the communities in question. But what people outside the cultures think about this is not something we can really do anything about. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 21:09, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

(I have autism and this seems to impact my ability to communicate. It's difficult to understand when to use careful wording and when to use implication from inexact concepts. By "woo-woo", etc., I was trying to indicate that the framing of the concept is a racist, colonialist exaggeration. The gist of the framing issue is otherwise understood.) I reviewed the debate about deletion. It seems like the argument to delete wasn't framed in such a way that the other members of the discussion understood. If you want to reopen that and say to merge it with the Navajo witchcraft article, I can offer support based on having read books on the subject that it's better understood as one part of the greater witchcraft subject and that trying to separate it out as one thing on its own is a silly irrelevance popularized by werewolf fiction and UFOlogy, making most sources claiming it as significant on its own utter nonsense unbefitting of Wikipedia. If you go in like that and use the bit about reliable sources just stonewalling the issue as part of that argument, I think you'd have a better shot at getting a merge accepted. --OGoncho (talk) 10:52, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Or maybe the problem is that when you come with "you should not talk about this because that is our culture" argument, then you could apply this to other topics as well. You should not not discuss gay people in some cultures, because there it is taboo to do so. You should not write about the devil, because some cultures don't want to talk about it. Not to mention that the article is contradictory within itself and the Navajo picked that belief up from the Meso-Americans, so it is not exclusively theirs. Furthermore you "do not talk" about skinwalkers because you don't want to piss them off and not because they are sacred or anything. What you are basically demanding is that we should cow to someone's superstition. So I say this article has to stay.Inugami-bargho (talk) 10:03, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't know if this is helpful, but when I lived in Jemez Springs I had some friends from Walatowa, a Pueblo town and rez. Once I was hanging out with some guys and the subject or word "skinwalker" was mentioned by someone, and the three guys got really serious and kind of agitated looking and pretty much said "drop it" and changed the subject. So, I don't claim to be an anthropologist, and these young dudes weren't even Navajo, but two facts emerged: 1. The subject made them visibly uneasy and 2. They did not want to discuss it. So, for whatever it's worth, that's my anecdote. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adkins (talk • contribs) 15:08, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-Protected against IP vandals

The IP vandalism is endless, so I've semi-ed the page. As I also edit the page occasionally, if anyone wants to review this action, feel free to go to WP:RPP. But if you want it unprotected, please commit to page patrol as the vandalism is perennial and relentless. I predict indef in the future. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:52, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Every edit since the protection has expired has been IP vandalism or reversion thereof. Extending protection. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:42, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Song

A song about the legend, also titled “Skinwalker”, appeared on rock musician Robbie Robertson’s successful soundtrack album Music for The Native Americans. Robertson actually is Native (albeit being of Mohawk ancestry rather than Navajo). Not sure if it would be worth mentioning here in a “cultural references” section or not. 63.231.141.132 (talk) 16:30, 5 March 2020 (UTC)