Talk:Timurid Empire: Difference between revisions
→lede is missing something ...: new section |
|||
Line 44: | Line 44: | ||
Agreeing with Lingveno, there is absolutely no historical sources to my knowledge, that would support the flag shown on this wikipedia page. All sources who argue on behalf of this black/red flag, cite the catalan atlas, eventhough first of all, that doesn't fit in any way chronologically in a time when it would be believable to assume Timur had his own flag representing his rule (instead of for example, a chagatayid bairaq, since claimed to be an amir on behalf of a chagatay pretender) , secondly, there is no black flag with red dots in the whole catalan atlas, at least where Timur would have been. We see the ilkhanid golden sign, with a red square, and we see the golden horde flag up in cumania / pontic steppe, and we see assumed chagatay flag, white with a yellow square, around eastern transoxania and moghulistan. The flag people mistakenly have assumed as a flag of Timur (for some reason) seems to be the white flag with three red crescents pointing up, which can be seen east of the golden horde, all the way to china, that is to say, the ulus of the great khan, which would make it the flag of the greath khans heart lands, maybe Yuan remnants? The coloring is an obvious mistake. There are cleaned versions of the Catalan Atlas to be found, and even if you look at the original scans of the map, you can clearly see the white color of the golden horde flag, for example, to have dimmed in the same way as the aforementioned three-crescent flag to the east. |
Agreeing with Lingveno, there is absolutely no historical sources to my knowledge, that would support the flag shown on this wikipedia page. All sources who argue on behalf of this black/red flag, cite the catalan atlas, eventhough first of all, that doesn't fit in any way chronologically in a time when it would be believable to assume Timur had his own flag representing his rule (instead of for example, a chagatayid bairaq, since claimed to be an amir on behalf of a chagatay pretender) , secondly, there is no black flag with red dots in the whole catalan atlas, at least where Timur would have been. We see the ilkhanid golden sign, with a red square, and we see the golden horde flag up in cumania / pontic steppe, and we see assumed chagatay flag, white with a yellow square, around eastern transoxania and moghulistan. The flag people mistakenly have assumed as a flag of Timur (for some reason) seems to be the white flag with three red crescents pointing up, which can be seen east of the golden horde, all the way to china, that is to say, the ulus of the great khan, which would make it the flag of the greath khans heart lands, maybe Yuan remnants? The coloring is an obvious mistake. There are cleaned versions of the Catalan Atlas to be found, and even if you look at the original scans of the map, you can clearly see the white color of the golden horde flag, for example, to have dimmed in the same way as the aforementioned three-crescent flag to the east. |
||
Whether Timur deliberately used the flag of the great khan to bolster his ambitions (at least on his own behalf), is questionable since he never even later took the title of khan.[[User:Hegaton|Hegaton]] ([[User talk:Hegaton|talk]]) 11:34, 10 October 2018 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hegaton|Hegaton]] ([[User talk:Hegaton#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hegaton|contribs]]) 11:31, 10 October 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
Whether Timur deliberately used the flag of the great khan to bolster his ambitions (at least on his own behalf), is questionable since he never even later took the title of khan.[[User:Hegaton|Hegaton]] ([[User talk:Hegaton|talk]]) 11:34, 10 October 2018 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hegaton|Hegaton]] ([[User talk:Hegaton#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hegaton|contribs]]) 11:31, 10 October 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
||
== lede is missing something ... == |
|||
Reading it, I would think this was some average period in history. Nothing about the utter destruction and brutality Timur inflicting on civilization. [[Special:Contributions/50.111.19.21|50.111.19.21]] ([[User talk:50.111.19.21|talk]]) 00:03, 22 May 2020 (UTC) |
Revision as of 00:03, 22 May 2020
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Timurid Empire article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
|
Name in Chagatai language
As I remember, previous revisions of this article had name of empire in Chagatai, just like Timur. Also, that language mentioned as an official language in infobox. So should we add Chagatai name too? --Zyma (talk) 08:14, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- Chagatai language was not an official language in the empire yet had a widespread use, but all the official documentation was done in Persian. Including Chagatai everywhere where possible is due to the fact that modern version of Chagatai is Uzbek which is the official language of Uzbekistan comprising most of the empire's heart. --Lingveno (talk) 20:30, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Timurid Religion
Sufism is not a "branch" of Islam like that of Sunni and Shi'ite, it can't constitute the state religion. Timur and the Timurids were Sunni rulers with Sufi tendencies. What does the cited Russian source actually say about this? Chamboz (talk) 20:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
- It says that Sufism and Sufi people held great power in Central Asia during the Timurid dynasty rule and Sufism was widespread. If Sufism is not really a branch of Islam and cannot be an official religion, I propose getting it back to Islam or to Sunni Islam. --Lingveno (talk) 20:26, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, Sufism isn't really a branch, I'd say it should get changed back to Sunni Islam. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:41, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
- Do we have sources for Sunni Islam? --Lingveno (talk) 22:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
- Do you have the ability to research information?
- Timurids in Transition: Turko-Persian Politics and Acculturation, Volume 7, by Maria Subtelny, page 201;"Traditions that constituted the basis of the Timurid-sponsored revival of Sunni Islam."
- Medieval Heresies: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, by Christine Caldwell Ames, page 269;"Timur the Lame came to rule this polity and then to expand it westwards, finally creating a Sunni Muslim "Timurid" empire..."--Kansas Bear (talk) 22:25, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
- Do we have sources for Sunni Islam? --Lingveno (talk) 22:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, Sufism isn't really a branch, I'd say it should get changed back to Sunni Islam. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:41, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Timurid Empire. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061205073939/http://bartleby.com/65/ti/Timurids.html to http://www.bartleby.com/65/ti/Timurids.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070929125948/http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&file=80201010&ct=0 to http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&file=80201010&ct=0
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070929132016/http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp to http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
- If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
- If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:06, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Flag
Wanted to raise a concern about the flag. The one which is presented in the article looks more like a fan-art rather than a historical flag. In any source you will find that the flag was light-blue with the silver circles, and not black with red. The same blue flag you will find in the Timur museum in his hometown of Shahrisabz. --Lingveno (talk) 19:26, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
Agreeing with Lingveno, there is absolutely no historical sources to my knowledge, that would support the flag shown on this wikipedia page. All sources who argue on behalf of this black/red flag, cite the catalan atlas, eventhough first of all, that doesn't fit in any way chronologically in a time when it would be believable to assume Timur had his own flag representing his rule (instead of for example, a chagatayid bairaq, since claimed to be an amir on behalf of a chagatay pretender) , secondly, there is no black flag with red dots in the whole catalan atlas, at least where Timur would have been. We see the ilkhanid golden sign, with a red square, and we see the golden horde flag up in cumania / pontic steppe, and we see assumed chagatay flag, white with a yellow square, around eastern transoxania and moghulistan. The flag people mistakenly have assumed as a flag of Timur (for some reason) seems to be the white flag with three red crescents pointing up, which can be seen east of the golden horde, all the way to china, that is to say, the ulus of the great khan, which would make it the flag of the greath khans heart lands, maybe Yuan remnants? The coloring is an obvious mistake. There are cleaned versions of the Catalan Atlas to be found, and even if you look at the original scans of the map, you can clearly see the white color of the golden horde flag, for example, to have dimmed in the same way as the aforementioned three-crescent flag to the east. Whether Timur deliberately used the flag of the great khan to bolster his ambitions (at least on his own behalf), is questionable since he never even later took the title of khan.Hegaton (talk) 11:34, 10 October 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hegaton (talk • contribs) 11:31, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
lede is missing something ...
Reading it, I would think this was some average period in history. Nothing about the utter destruction and brutality Timur inflicting on civilization. 50.111.19.21 (talk) 00:03, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Start-Class Central Asia articles
- Mid-importance Central Asia articles
- WikiProject Central Asia articles
- Start-Class Iran articles
- Mid-importance Iran articles
- WikiProject Iran articles
- Start-Class Afghanistan articles
- Mid-importance Afghanistan articles
- WikiProject Afghanistan articles
- Start-Class former country articles
- WikiProject Former countries articles
- Start-Class Middle Ages articles
- Low-importance Middle Ages articles
- Start-Class history articles
- All WikiProject Middle Ages pages