Talk:Beyoncé/Archive 13

Archive 10

Archive 11

Archive 12

Archive 13

Archive 14

Archive 15

Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2018

Beyonce's net worth is $550 Million. Check Forbes. and Also add performer as one of her occupations. Include Multi-genre artist because she transcends throughout music. Lastly, include links to all her main music platforms such as Spotify, Tidal, apple etc. IsraelNS (talk) 14:43, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: Because your request contains multiple proposals, I am addressing each one individually:

1. "Beyonce's net worth is $550 Million. Check Forbes." Nobody here is obliged to perform research for you on your behalf; the burden to provide reliable sources is on the person making the change (see WP:PROVEIT) or in this case proposing it. You may reopen this request (by changing "answered=yes" back to "answered=no") and, beneath all of the text I have added, supply a reliable source supporting your claim.

2. "and Also add performer as one of her occupations." You have not provided a reliable source supporting this change, and you have also not provided any reason for the change to be made. You are welcome to reopen this request and supply these. However, I believe that the change will not be implemented without consensus being reached, as I do not see any precedent for this; articles for successful artists known for their performances (Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson, Madonna) do not have "performer" listed among the occupations.

3. "Include Multi-genre artist because she transcends throughout music." You have not provided one or more reliable sources demonstrating that Beyoncé is an artist of numerous music genres. You are welcome to reopen this request and do so. However, as with the request above, I do not see any precedent for this; successful artists known for encompassing a wide variety of genres throughout their careers (Michael Jackson, Bruno Mars, the Bee Gees) are never described as "multi-genre" within their respective articles. Furthermore, Beyoncé is not particularly known for a diverse range of music styles; this made evident in her infobox, which lists contemporary R&B and pop as her only genres.

4. "Lastly, include links to all her main music platforms such as Spotify, Tidal, apple etc." The purpose of this article is, as with any Wikipedia article, to provide information about the subject that is objective, verifiable, and encyclopedic; its purpose is not to promote Beyoncé or her music (see WP:PROMO and WP:LINKSPAM).

LifeofTau 02:47, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2018

lgvc davcs hcbndvjh bzccaghb sc zv 27.99.85.18 (talk) 08:01, 21 September 2018 (UTC) ghlj

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Kpgjhpjm 08:30, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Beyonce Knowel was born on September 4 1981,She has a Sister that also makes music — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rittynay lee (talk • contribs) 14:29, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2018

2602:30A:C002:A620:BD35:6465:6746:F2BB (talk) 22:43, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Beyonce 1965,4 September I would like to change Beyonce' s birthday.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DannyS712 (talk) 23:00, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2018

Myaflypiejam (talk) 16:57, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Beyoncé had the privilege to meet the most famous Molly O'Toole at a bar in Portlaoise Co.Laois. Beyoncé said "she is the only woman i can respect other than my mama".

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 17:39, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

New Beyoncé Image

Since a new era is nearly upon us, SKERR SKERR we shuld chnage Bey's profile photo from the FWT to a Coachella one such as: https://www.beyonce.com/uploads/2018/04/cache/-q6Kk458jhUO_1280x1280_KaMXZQjO.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.71.71.236 (talk • contribs) 9:36, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Images on Wikipedia must comply with the image use policy. If there is a more suitable image that is free to use, then you are welcome to suggest it. Nzd (talk) 10:12, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

References

Wow really? Ana jerie (talk) 14:54, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on February 5, 2019

Carmona.kristine (talk) 00:46, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 00:56, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Effect on Women

Beyonce makes her music for people to relate to. The variety in her music conveys the message that there is nothing wrong with the emotions that women often feel and that they are natural. Songs like "***Flawless" and "Run The World (Girls)" tell women that they are strong and powerful. In contrast, songs like "Sandcastles" and "Don't Hurt Yourself" show that even the strongest people deal with sadness and anger like everyone else, and that that's not a bad thing. She also preaches that being in love does not make one less strong. Songs like "Crazy In Love" and "***Flawless" show women how positive being in a relationship can be for someone, and that it does not take away their independence or strength. By preaching these messages to her fans, she has proven to be a good role model for women all around the world who are figuring things out for themselves in a male dominated world. She also speaks the message of body positivity and female empowerment, which helps make people feel that they are accepted just how they are. She is one of the biggest artists in the world, so her message reaches millions of people.Jholben (talk) 02:20, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

References

First solo song

The following sentence (Beyoncé's first solo recording was a feature on Jay-Z's "'03 Bonnie & Clyde" that was released in October 2002, peaking at number four on the U.S. Billboard Hot 100 chart.) is incorrect because she released "Work It Out" earlier in 2002 and featured on "I Got That" in 2000. Aoba47 (talk) 20:09, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2019

May I please edit this page. Some of it has false information and I would to like to correct Ellamalfan123 (talk) 19:55, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. NiciVampireHeart 19:57, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Updated net worth 2019

<httpsp://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/singers/beyonce-knowles-net-worth/> reference Purocaribe (talk) 11:59, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2019

Makavelio (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

hi wiki,

I’m a big fan of your site! I found broken links the other day and wanted to let you know about it.

The page where the link appears is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyonc%C3%A9

The broken URL is "Beyoncé Knowles settles with gaming company". Retrieved May 15, 2013.[dead link] , "Rihanna advises Idols to work like they have a hit". CablePulse 24.[dead link], Classen, Stephanie (March 28, 2009). "Beyoncé no ordinary performer". The StarPhoenix. Retrieved March 31, 2009.[dead link]

I found a similar page, even better that even has a link from Wikipedia. Do you want to update the links?

https://spinninnews.com/beyonce-lands-adidas-deal/#.XNHKO_kzaM8, https://spinninnews.com/beyonce-fans-rejoice-as-lemonade-is-finally-available-on-all-streaming-platforms/#.XNHLQ_kzaM8,

https://spinninnews.com/beyonces-lemonade-returns-to-billboard-top-10-homecoming-jumps-up/#.XNHLY_kzaM8

Keep up the excellent work! Thanks!

Marko

 Not done: None of the 3 "spinninnews" links you provide verify the information in the article currently sourced by the dead links. NiciVampireHeart 08:07, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Homecoming

There's a stub for the upcoming Netflix documentary at Homecoming (2019 film). ---Another Believer _(Talk) 00:08, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

What kind of stub exactly?? Tshepiso Matlaba (talk) 20:36, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Stub. The article on Homecoming is no longer a stub, but it was when Another Believer posted here. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:39, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Crazy in Love is not Beyoncé's first solo recording

The article claims "Beyoncé's first solo recording was a feature on Jay-Z's "'03 Bonnie & Clyde" that was released in October 2002" - but the discography notes "Work It Out" is her first solo recording (released June 11, 2002). The artikel Crazy in Love notes: "By July 2002, Beyoncé had already recorded several songs which would appear on Dangerously in Love", so Crazy in Love can not be the first solo recording. --2A0A:A541:48E2:0:5C65:187:FB99:1233 (talk) 10:18, 4 September 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:9009:D02:3E00:310A:25E5:6EE0:5223 (talk) 20:33, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Beyonce is a Singer-Dancer

MODERATOR: There are countless singers, but there is another category of singer-dancer. She is also a model. Therefore, the opening sentence should be tweaked to: Beyoncé Giselle Knowles-Carter (/biːˈjɒnseɪ/ bee-YON-say; born September 4, 1981)[4] is an American singer-dancer, songwriter, actress, and model. 2601:580:A:7031:B41A:E77F:5125:4347 (talk) 11:30, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Can you point us to a well-respected publication that calls her a singer-dancer or model? Because that's what will give you leverage here. Binksternet (talk) 14:50, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes...and therefore moderator is right about the the opening sentence according to Knowles Allexandra Senòrita Belcalis (talk) 18:49, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

update

"Beyonce Surprise Drops Live Coachella Album, Netflix Doc Now Streaming". NPR.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bashimule (talk • contribs) 08:51, 9 January 2020 (UTC) 

Pleasure on you....cause we don't have any guarantee that the album was glorious Allexandra Senòrita Belcalis (talk) 18:52, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Destiny's child appreciation

When did Knowles realize to build new group of girls singer's called Destiny's child? or they just came in a bottom of an space to being a part of group. Give a guarantee then Allexandra Senòrita Belcalis (talk) 19:07, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Overdetails

I just read this article and some sections seems "overdetailed", in excess. For example, "Legacy" and "Achievements" and that's difficult to read. Also has verbiage, for example several lists of Forbes and Time in "Public image" or others sections that can be summarized and simplify in a few words, same with comments of her linked-group Destiny's child. This is a encyclopedia, not a fan magazine of accomplishments. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 17:14, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Beyonce's career tour gross

Pollstar has released an article on the highest grossing female acts in history and Beyonce is ranked 3rd with over 1 billion dollars. She is one of three women to pass the billion dollar threshold and one of only 11 acts to do so. She also extends her lead as the highest grossing Black artist in music history. Please add this information to her Legacy and Achievement categories. The individual that has been tampering with her awards also needs to be banned

Here is the pollstar article link: https://www.pollstar.com/article/ladies-might-box-office-triumph-by-top-female-earners-144117 (190.80.50.59 (talk) 13:43, 16 May 2020 (UTC))

Beyoncé’s mother’s maiden name

Was Beyonce Knowles’s mother born ‘Celestine Ann Beyincé’ or ‘Celestine Ann Beyoncé’? According to all of the biographies about Beyoncé, her mother was born with the surname “Beyincé”.--EsotericJoe (talk) 00:19, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Beyoncé, of course, is derived from Tina's maiden name, Beyincé. Because only one of her brothers had a son, Tina had feared that her family name would die out. “I said, ‘Oh God, we’ll run out of Beyincés,’” she told the journalist Touré for Rolling Stone—thus her idea of naming her daughter in a variant of Beyincé. Her father Lumis Beyincé, didn’t much like the idea though. “My family was not happy,” Tina confirmed. “My dad said, ‘She’s gonna to be mad at you, because that’s a last name.’ And I’m like, ‘It’s not a last name to anybody but you guys!’”

— J. Randy Taraborrelli, Becoming Beyoncé: The Untold Story, pages 27-28

--EsotericJoe (talk) 00:40, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

And then we have an instagram message dated April 25, 2020 written by Tina Knowles at https://www.instagram.com/p/B_aqEJ7jMHc/ where she stated "Guys Beyince’ And Beyonce are pronounced the exact same way. It is five Beyoncé children that my daddy had. Only the first three had the same spelling Beyince’ me and my youngest brother had Beyonce’ on our birth certificates . So however they spelled it on our birth certificate is how we spelled it also. But it is all pronounced the same please do not try to correct me on Pronunciation on my own last name". Seems fairly clear what she means and what she states about herself should be considered authoritative. The other sources got it wrong. Geraldo Perez (talk) 00:56, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

It’s odd. One moment she’s telling people her maiden is spelt ‘Beyincé’ and then the next moment she is telling people it is spelt ‘Beyoncé’.--EsotericJoe (talk) 04:28, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

She pronounces them the same which adds to the confusion and the transcription from an interview may have assumed what she stated matched was her father's name spelling. It is strange but she wrote the message on Instagram herself so there should be no transcription issues there. Geraldo Perez (talk) 04:40, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Birth name

@AshMusique: Naming laws in Texas do not allow accents in birth names. Her birth name is Beyonce, not Beyoncé. I agree with your point about it being confusing. When I originally edited this information into her article, I added "known as Beyoncé" to the lead for clarification, but another user removed it, citing repetition and then that it was the article name. I can somewhat understand not including it in the lead and even the Early life section, but it absolutely should be included in the infobox. The birth name parameter is for the birth name, not current name or name one is best known by. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 03:44, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Beyoncé 2019.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:07, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2020

Change {{short description|American singer, songwriter, producer, and actress}}

to {{short description|American singer, songwriter, producer, actress and MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER}} ImxKy (talk) 19:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Doesn't appear to have been a major aspect of her career. – Thjarkur (talk) 20:51, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Other Names Edit Request

Queen Bey and Queen B should be added to the Other Names section in her stats. She refers to herself by this name in her songs and is widely referred to by this moniker in the media, in internet culture, and by her fans, as well as in casual conversation. ConnorD88 (talk) 11:33, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Birth name

Please change the birth name information in the Infobox from this:

Beyonce Giselle Knowles

to the following:

Beyoncé Giselle Knowles

Someone changed the last e on her first name & no one has fixed it, so please fix Beyoncé's birth name.

 Not done We can’t, because the state in which she was born doesn’t allow accented letters on birth certificates. Trillfendi (talk) 12:39, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Ann Marie Lastrassi

I'd like to know the source that shows Beyonce's real name as Ann Marie Lastrassi, or are you all just going to leave that info in there like it's fact, only furthering the cause for white misinformation and supremacy? Valhalla1207 (talk) 22:47, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Seems like that name was added earlier today without a source. I removed it as a BLP policy violation and possible vandalism. Thank you for pointing that out. Aoi (青い) (talk) 22:52, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Spillover from some Instagram / Twitter conspiracy nonsense which states that Beyoncé is actually a “dark Italian” (whatever that means) named Ann Marie Lastrassi who pretends to be Black for the sake of “greater audience appeal”. Not sure if the edits were made by believers or to troll / mock them. DES (talk) 14:37, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Tra l'altro Lastrassi non è un cognome, it isn't an italian surname.. --2.226.12.134 (talk) 12:46, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2020

Include filmmaker in her list of titles (singer, songwriter, etc). She has produced 4 films up to this point (Life is but a dream, Lemonade, Homecoming and Black is King) and it only makes sense for it to be acknowledged 41.57.208.27 (talk) 14:05, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 19:38, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

associated artists

should chloe x halle be under the associated artist list.......... Thedivinebey (talk) 22:04, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Only if they meet Template:Infobox_musical_artist#associated_acts' criteria. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 22:12, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Should she be defined as a songwriter in the lead?

Should Beyoncé be defined as a songwriter in the lead of her article? isento (talk) 04:51, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm converting this thread into an RfC, for the reasons that were stated below. Given the subject's ubiquitous cultural presence, I think it's better to get a consensus on this. isento (talk) 11:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Votes

• No - Per MOS:LEADSENTENCE, the lead should define the subject for nonspecialist readers, and "songwriter" is not a defining characteristic; it will likely give readers a misleading impression of her actual role in making songs. isento (talk) 11:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - Per WP:DEFINING, a defining characteristic is one that has been commonly and consistently attributed to the subject in reliable sources, which songwriting certainly has been in this case. Bgkc4444 (talk) 18:06, 24 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

  Certainly not the case. isento (talk) 17:45, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

• No, unless I'm missing something, she is barely a singer-songwriter (if you stretch the term), but not a songwriter. © Tbhotch^™ 18:54, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• No, unless there are independent sources that define her as a "songwriter". Idealigic (talk) 21:07, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• No — I saw more sources calling her as a singer rather than singer-songwriter even. But we've independent sources defining her as a singer-songwriter. I guess "songwriter" should be very unpopular or almost inexistent in case if we have sources. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 21:46, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: MOS:ROLEBIO would apply here. Are "record producer, dancer, actress and filmmaker" "noteworthy position(s) or role(s)" too? Some1 (talk) 23:06, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Actress, yes, the rest, no. © Tbhotch^™ 23:08, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes they are. Beyonce has produced records throughout her career (including some independently), is well-known as a dancer, and has made several films (including one which received a Peabody Award and another which received 6 Emmy nominations). These are all attested to in reliable sources and are certainly "integral to the person's notability" as per MOS:ROLEBIO. Bgkc4444 (talk) 19:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

Dancer? Dancing on her tours doesn't make her a dancer, and which records has she produced (other than her own)? © Tbhotch^™ 19:36, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

These activities can be discussed further down in the lead, but not in the defining first sentence. isento (talk) 17:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

• Yes - Beyoncé has been called a songwriter by both reliable third-party sources and those who have worked with her, therefore it is definitely a defining characteristic. Timeheist (talk) 18:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
• Tending towards 'no'. By omitting it in the first sentence, we wouldn't be saying she's NOT a songwriter. If there's controversy among reliable sources whether this is a legitimate characteristic or attribute then why post it this prominently in the lede? (especially when there are characteristics and attributes far more dominant in terms of how they are reported in the media). But I won't care if it remains either. Weak no. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:43, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
• Tending towards no, per Sluzzelin. If we decided to keep the "songwriter" role, then we had to address the controversy on the lead section. Something like "Beyoncé has been credited as a co-writer in majority of her songs, but her songwriting contributions were often disputed. Bluesatellite (talk) 21:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

Fair question, given her songwriting track record is controversial, and her contributions seem to be often marginal ([1]), unless an independent source can confirm otherwise? Given the definitions of songwriter available here and elsewhere, she seems to fit it only if we use the term loosely. Which begs the question, is that really helpful to readers understanding this article's subject? isento (talk) 04:51, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

If this helps, there have been interviews with producers who have witnessed Beyonce writing entire lyrics to songs and observations regarding her production and musicianship abilities. The source is a book called "House of Hits: The Story of Houston's Gold Star/Sugarhill Recording Studios"- p.239-240 Cleopatra5595 (talk) 05:42, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

A bit, yeah, but all I see is an interview with Workman (not really an independent source) detailing her having written lyrics for one song while in her old group twenty years ago. In any case, I've added a footnote alongside "songwriter" in the lead with qualifying info about her writing credits, although I would like to see more comments here. "Songwriter" still does not appear to be a defining characteristic for this person, which is what the lead should define in its opening (WP:LEAD). isento (talk) 05:52, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

The most reliable source for songwriting is actually the people who involved in the writing process itself. Dan Workman is only the audio engineer of the record, he has nothing to do with producing, let alone songwriting. Rob Fusari who did actually write and produce "Bootylicous" said to Billboard that Beyonce was lying that she was the one who came up with the song's idea.[2]. And that's not the only time such things happened. Bluesatellite (talk) 06:12, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I've included that in the article. isento (talk) 06:25, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

The fact that a significant portion of her recognition and awards is for her songwriting necessitates the inclusion of this role in the lead, as it is a defining characteristic of her and her career. According to WP:DEFINING, "A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having", which is certainly true in this case. It also brings the following example: "a film actor who holds a law degree should be categorized as a film actor, but not as a lawyer unless his or her legal career was notable in its own right or relevant to his acting career". Beyonce as a songwriter is certainly relevant to her career as an artist. Nothing about using the word "songwriter" for Beyonce contradicts the songwriter article or any Wikipedia guideline. Bgkc4444 (talk) 18:06, 24 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

A Google search for Beyonce and songwriter appears to lead with reliable sources profiling a few of the songwriters who've written for her and a Vanity Fair piece comparing Beyonce to Meryl Streep, Frank Sinatra, and Billie Holiday as artists who are "celebrated [not] because [they] write such good parts, but because [they] create them out of the words that are given". isento (talk) 21:31, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

The ASCAP is a performer's organization, not an independent awards body. isento (talk) 21:38, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

:: Please look further. From this year, this article calls her a songwriter, this one does so twice, and so on. Bgkc4444 (talk) 21:56, 24 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

One of those sources calls her a "singer-songwriter", which she clearly isn't. Maybe you'd notice that if you were as discriminatory with sources that favor your position as you were with sources that don't. isento (talk) 22:26, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I've now cited several more sources/controversies to the article surrounding her songwriting credits/claims. Perhaps you should take that into consideration. isento (talk) 23:03, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Nothing you have said means that Beyoncé is not a songwriter. The fact that she has had co-writers and a source called her a singer-songwriter does not negate the fact that she is a songwriter in any way. You source your contentious claims about living persons to unreliable sources, and therefore this material does not belong in the article (see WP:BLPRS). Your material also violates WP:NPOV and you have given undue weight to minority views. Your assertions in this discussion similarly violate these rules. Timeheist (talk) 18:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

As well as the arguments being based on unreliable sources, Isento also brings a claim by one collaborator who later recounted it. Yet there are many more collaborators who have spoken about Beyonce's writing, such as producer Dre, who said here "She was 100 percent involved. She put her mind to the music and did her thing. If she had a melody idea, she came up with the words. If we had the words, she came up with the melody. She’s a beast." The article continued, "When pressed further about assumptions that Bey's songwriting contributions are minimal, Dre said, "Haters, that’s their job: to do everything to discredit brilliant people." No doubt, Beyoncé has been discredited by many over the years—and held to standards that don't exist for many of her white peers, in a racist fashion—but a number of her collaborators have always come to her defense." This includes Ryan Tedder, who said "The whole melody, she wrote it spontaneously in the studio". Similarly, Carla Marie Williams said here that Beyonce "got to work on how she wanted to say the words properly. She's a visionary herself, so she started helping us find the direction of the song. She wanted it to be a female anthem, and we wanted to address certain issues. [Months later] we were still working on the second verse, trying to refine it. It wasn't just like, "Yeah, take the song." We really crafted it all together." Similar statements have been made by various additional collaborators, such as here, here and here. These are all stories published only since her last album, and there are many more reaching back over the past couple decades. It is impossible to say, without bias, that Beyonce is not considered a songwriter. Bgkc4444 (talk) 19:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

Bogus argument. They're not unreliable - The Daily Beast's chronicle of factual events is echoed in the Vulture, the Sunday Independent, Billboard, The Boombox, even Daryl Easlea's biography on Beyonce. The collaborator didn't recount the claim - as I stated in my edit summary, and had you actually read the source(s), you'd see one interview is referring to the producer's musical idea, the other to the titular concept. Tedder is cited in the Sunday Independent source as "muddying the waters" about her songwriting credits. To deny there isn't a controversy is to be blinded by one's fandom, as Kritselis suggests in the Sunday Independent. isento (talk) 20:42, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Timeheist, nothing anyone has cited here demonstrates she is consistently and reliably defined as a songwriter, which is the threshold here: "A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently" (WP:DEFINING) Hired guns close to the event which is Beyonce's purported songwriting are primary sources. isento (talk) 20:49, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Use common sense. A songwriter writes a song. She has exclusively written parts of songs, or a part of a song. She is a part-song-writer. A co-writer. There. I've broken it down in plain English. isento (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

The Daily Beast is a reliable source for news, not for the opinion of a writer spreading contentious claims about a living person. The Sunday Independent and The Boombox are unreliable sources for this also. Fusari did recount his claim and Tedder never said that. You're doing original research. The former told Billboard "she told Barbara about how she came up with the idea for the track" and later told EW "she had the ‘Bootylicious’ concept in her head. That was totally her." The latter told the Guardian that Beyonce rewrote the bridge and therefore she is a songwriter. He didn't suggest at all the Beyonce steals credits, he just said that he doesn't know about other songs. As always Isento, we shouldn't be cherry-picking negative points and misrepresenting sources just because we don't like the person who the article is about, and then give these points undue weight.

As you agreed before, "The most reliable source for songwriting is actually the people who involved in the writing process itself". You base your arguments on unreliable sources (including a comment by a random musician, which of course is not relevant when you're trying to find reliable sources for contentious claims about living persons) and the only source you have from a person who actually was involved in the writing process later recounted the claim. I brought half a dozen statements from those involved in the writing process, but of course you deny them. As the source I brought earlier said, Beyonce's detractors are holding her "to standards that don't exist for many of her white peers, in a racist fashion". She is a songwriter. Period. Her co-writing songs doesn't make her not a songwriter. No-one claims that so I don't understand how that's forming the base of your argument. Your arguments seems to be changing and you seem to be giving a few at once because none are strong on their own. Is she not a songwriter because she has co-writers? Because you claim she steals songs? Because you claim she makes marginal contributions? Because you claim it isn't a notable role of hers? Please choose one. Bgkc4444 (talk) 17:56, 28 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

They're not contentious claims. The source is used to verify that she's been criticized by journalists and musicians for songwriting credits, which is an undeniable observation. The only opinion cited from the Daily Beast's Kevin Fallon is the trend has redefined popular conceptions of songwriting, with Fallon saying, "the village of authors and composers that populate Lemonade, [Kanye West']s Life of Pablo, [Rihanna's] Anti, or [Drake's] Views—all of which are still reflective of an artist’s voice and vision ... speaks to the truth of the way the industry’s top artists create their music today: by committee." (Which is actually an argument in favor of your position...) The Boombox source cited in the article clarifies Fusari's controversy concerned credit for the musical idea (the riff, the sample), not the lyrical concept. Should I repeat that for the nth time to you? isento (talk) 18:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Your hypocritical, too-long-to-read accusations only serve to alienate me from talking to you and to isolate yourself in this discussion. The majority of editors here agree "songwriter" is not definitive. Are they also "cherry-picking negative points and misrepresenting sources because [they] don't like the person who the article is about"? Maybe they're just too stupid to recognize her almighty talents? isento (talk) 18:09, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

For the record, in case you thought otherwise, I don't know Beyonce personally. And I actually happen to like the music she sings and puts her name to. isento (talk) 18:12, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

You should ascribe the first two sentences of the paragraph to the authors of the sources, provide more reliable sources than ones which quote a Fox News article full of racist dogwhistles, and properly represent all views. The Boombox made their own interpretation of the interview. When making contentious claims about living persons, it is best to quote directly from an interview if there is a dispute on its meaning, therefore "he told Barbara about how she came up with the idea for the track" and the converse "she had the ‘Bootylicious’ concept in her head" is what should be used in this article.

Focusing on what your original argument was, that Beyonce should be considered a songwriter if this role has been commonly and consistently attributed to her in reliable sources, you cannot deny that this is true here. It was the case during the Destiny's Child era, the Dangerously In Love era, the B'Day era, the I Am... Sasha Fierce era, the 4 era, the BEYONCE era, the Lemonade era, until today. One cannot say that Beyonce has not been commonly and consistently described as a songwriter, without bias. Bgkc4444 (talk) 18:04, 3 September 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

Dude, the producer literally said, "she knew what she wanted to say". How do you get musical idea (as opposed to lyrical concept) from this? isento (talk) 01:24, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, that first source you cited is describing a relative status within the group, calling her "the group's primary songwriter"; of the three members she appears to have more credits for co-writing, looking at the extensive writing lists at those Destiny's Child album articles. The BBC and Redeye sources are before the exact nature of her "writing" contributions came to light (say, for instance, getting a writing credit simply for making an off-the-cuff vocal alteration during a song's bridge, as reported here), and the ABC News source is another that misuses the singer-songwriter title, which I suspect you still don't grasp either... isento (talk) 01:32, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

So, in conclusion, she does not appear to be reliably (and not much consistently) defined as a songwriter. isento (talk) 03:32, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

(side note) isento, could you try harder posting something definite the first time around rather than tweaking n times thereafter? (full disclosure, I'm guilty of the same syndrome, but its potential nuisance has been explained to me) ---Sluzzelin talk 18:36, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Haha, sure. I'll do my best. isento (talk) 18:49, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Name

The opening lines of the Early life section need reworking: it's left me thoroughly confused. It states that "Beyonce Giselle Knowles was born in Houston", that her mother's maiden name was Beyonce, and that "Beyoncé's name is a tribute to her mother's maiden name". So is the implication that her first name was originally Beyonce (without an accent on the final e), but that she added an accent to form her stage name? Or was her mother's name Beyonce, but when the baby was born her parents added the accent and named her Beyoncé? Or, alternatively, was her mother's maiden name actually Beyoncé? It doesn't help that the source at n18 is an ancient Fox News bio from 2008 via the Internet Archive that doesn't appear to do accents at all. Clarity please. GrindtXX (talk) 15:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Great questions,the name "Beyonce" is Tina Knowles' last name ,"Beyoncé" and "Beyonce" are different ,Beyoncé's parents pronounced her name differently. Nocles (talk) 23:43, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Beyonce

Nocles NoclesI just wanted to let you know that the edit you made in Beyonce is not a contribution of you need to experiment please use the sand box and if you need to ask questions go to the Beyonce talk I am Mhiz Destiny Mhiz Destiny (talk) 14:01, 27 October 2020 (UTC)