Talk:Second ladies and gentlemen of the United States

Style

The style for the Second Lady or Wife of the Vice President of the united states is NOT Mrs. Second Lady or Madame Second Lady!! It is simply " Dr. Biden " or " Mrs. Cheney " Irviding11 (talk) 20:28, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

And for goodness sake aka crying out loud, it's not an "office" with an "incumbent" and a "successor". --209.16.182.132 (talk) 03:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[Haruo]

Tipper Gore

Shouldn't it read Tipper Gore Ex-wife of Al Gore? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianearlhaines (talk • contribs) 16:41, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

They are not divorced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.134.84.84 (talk) 23:19, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

First use of title?

Ought to say when the phrase 'Second Lady' was first used. 86.181.213.189 (talk) 02:03, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's an actual title. It's just an informal styling people sometimes use when they don't feel like saying "wife of the Vice President." Also Wikipedians love using it for some strange reason. This article name really needs to be reverted to "Wife of the Vice President of the United States." It's silly using a fake title. --SchutteGod (talk) 23:32, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Confusion

This article needs to differentiate between a "Second Lady Of The United States" who was merely someone who can be CALLED that because she was/is married to a Vice President, vs. someone who held the GOVERNMENT OFFICE with the title "Second Lady Of The United States", with office space in a government building, government-salaried staff, rules to follow concerning travel expenses on personal matters vs. travel expenses pursuant to the job, etc.. I came here to see when "Second Lady" as a government office (not just a term bandied about in common parlance) was originated, and I didn't find ANYTHING of help. The article on "First Lady" does provide some guidance there, noting that TR's 2nd wife Edith Roosevelt may have been (the article could be clearer) the first "First Lady" in the sense of having a government position (i.e. staff paid for by government) with that title. My sense is (but I could be wrong) that Martha Washington and Abigail Adams did NOT have government positions.2604:2000:C682:2D00:948F:6864:E9B6:9D2B (talk) 19:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

This article should just be deleted. This position and title do not exist. Neutron (talk) 04:22, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

List table: Vacancy dates, in wrong column.

Not sure how to do it. But the vacancy dates should be in the tenure column, not the death column. GoodDay (talk) 15:11, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I changed 'colspan' values for the affected rows and think this is fixed now. —ADavidB 13:17, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Gender titles

I suppose we'll cross that bridge if/when we get to it. But, there's a strong possibility that the next Vice President of the United States will be a 'married' heterosexual woman. Will be interested in how we handle this article's title, on & after January 20, 2021. GoodDay (talk) 15:08, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Indeed I was just wondering about this. We could hardly call Douglas Emhoff the second gentleman of the United States, right? But the first also sounds wrong... KarlFrei (talk) 10:14, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

It will likely be Second Gentleman of the United States or Second Spouse of the United States. GoodDay (talk) 18:21, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

The Emhoff article does say "...would become the first second gentleman of the United States" and links to here. | MK17b | (talk) 04:32, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Would the title of this page change (especially if we get a call shortly)? | MK17b | (talk) 05:55, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

In the event of a Female VP

In the event of a Biden win in the presidential race, what would be the appropriate title for this page given that the role may also be "Second Gentleman of the US"? A second page? | MK17b | (talk) 18:37, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

• This is jumping the gun; if Biden/Harris wins, there will be coverage of the exact title to be used, but the article won't need to be updated until inauguration. Assuming that "Second Gentleman" is the title, there's plenty of Wikipedia precedent for having a combined Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States, per Second ladies and gentlemen of India, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Texas, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Puerto Rico, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Pakistan, etc. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:51, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

• I think the combined title is the best option since they will be holding the same position. Lsw2472 (talk) 03:56, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - Bad title for this section/discussion. A "Female VP" does not necessarily mean there is not a "First Lady of the United States." Suggest changing it to something that focuses on the person in this position. -- Fuzheado | Talk 17:57, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

• Spouse is more future proof since it deals with the issue of an NB second spouse. On the other hand if Second Ladies and Gentlemen is what we've gone with before perhaps we should stick with that.©Geni (talk) 17:59, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support "Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States". I can see the argument for "spouse", but that should be made at a wider forum so that the pages can be renamed in sync. For now, let's stick with precedent. I do think that "ladies and gentlemen" communicates something about the formality of the position that would be lost by just "spouse". {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:47, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
• Wait We need to see what will be adopted as a WP:COMMONNAME; Harris will probably make a choice and the media will follow suite.--Jasper Deng (talk) 20:14, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Agreed, I see a real risk here that whatever is in this article will influence what title is used (rather than the other way around), so I would argue for at the very least staying non-committal and possibly not listing any kind of gender-neutral or male term until the debate is settled. TJollans (talk) 10:44, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• I support title "Second Spouse of the United States, it maintains gender neutrality and will be inclusive to both the incoming Second Gentleman and the previous Second Ladies AvRand (talk) 00:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support per Sdkb. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 02:08, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Comment We also need to consider the case of Category:Second Ladies of the United States. SYSS Mouse (talk) 03:49, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Consider Second Lord of the United States. As Lady and Lord are equivalent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haveanimpact (talk • contribs) 07:45, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Image update timing

When should the image at the top of the article change from Karen Pence to Douglas Emhoff? Inaguration day (when the change is official)? User:Heyoostorm^_talk! 21:10, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Inauguration day, since VP-elect is not the same as VP (and so second gentleman-elect is not the same as second gentleman).--Jasper Deng (talk) 21:12, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Second Lord of the United States

Wouldn't it be easier if he was referred to as "Lord" for the abbreviation — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haveanimpact (talk • contribs) 07:42, 8 November 2020 (UTC)