Talk:Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church

The number of members of MOSC is grossly inflated. There are no more than 1.3 million MOSC believers. The 2.5 million listed is very misleading as it also takes into account the number of Jacobites. Nonetheless, an inconsistency still prevails as there are more Jacobites than Orthodox believers. This is evidenced by every single disputed church having a majority of Jacobite faithful. These faithful are kicked out for some 8 or 9 Orthodox believers. Please correct the number of believers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.185.202.11 (talk) 08:21, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

There is 1600 parish churches in Malankara . In that only 400 church there is presence of jacobite faction (majority/minority). Remaining 1200 churches have 100% Malankara Orthodox belivers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.230.28.22 (talk) 10:16, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.cheriapally.com/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120123121510/http://www.arthatcathedral.com/ to http://arthatcathedral.com/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:48, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Orgin

1912, its not 52AD Jithin8129 (talk) 15:41, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church originated during the first-century (52AD) missions of Thomas the Apostle. The year 1912 is the establishment of the catholicate in the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church which was founded by St Thomas in AD 52. For example Ethiopian Orthodox Church is orginated in the 1st century and but patriarchate of ethiopia was established only in 1970s which doesn't mean ethiopian church is established in 1970. Similarly Syro Malabar Catholic Church become major archiepiscopal in 1980s but It is formed in 1663 when they left the Malankara Church. Also all Marthoma Church(1889) and Syro Malankara rite Catholic Church (1930) and Jacobite Syrian Christian Church (2002) also split from the the official Malankara Church ie the present day Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.230.28.22 (talk) 10:09, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Haaahaa foolish Jithin8129 (talk) 18:45, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Will you also say that universe had split out from the MOSC?? Br Ibrahim john (talk) 17:04, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Members

Only 4lakhs as per 2011 census, not 2.5 million Jithin8129 (talk) 15:47, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

????? Jithin8129 (talk) 16:51, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

??? Came onnn Jithin8129 (talk) 18:43, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

The data that says about 2.5 million is the Church's self proclaimed statistics. It seems to include overlapping numbers from other denominations too.

Br Ibrahim john (talk) 17:02, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Merger proposal of Malankara Church and Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church

Malankara Church needs a lot of work, and its subject seems to duplicate this one. Miniapolis 19:50, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

• Support merger. All Malankara-related articles need a lot of work, in a chronic condition, due partly to chronic sock-puppetry. Elizium23 (talk) 20:00, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose: Malankara Church article is supposed to be a global article encompassing early history of that church and common ground for an important number of "Malankara" churches which are all under the umbrella of the "Malankara" tradition but with their unique entities. The Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church is just one part of this global Malankara Church with its own separate jurisdiction in later years. But it is just a part of the whole. Other Malankara churches include Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church etc. These are also part of the historical "Malankara Church" umbrella. If Malankara Church article needs clean-up, do it as such on its own merits. There is no reason to add Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church except as a small section leading to the independent Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church article. A hatnote could be added at the top of the Malankara Church page if you will leading to all these different Malankara Churches including Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church. This suggestion of yours is very similar for example for somebody suggesting merger of Latin Church (a part) to the Catholic Church article (the whole). But if we had done that, how about other Catholic Church churches like the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, like the Armenian Catholic Church etc etc. Malankara Church is (with cleaning) an all-encompassing article. Keep it that way. If you are concerned with duplications, then clean up Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church and develop it separately, if it needs development, but without merging the two. werldwayd (talk) 12:17, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I've been working on Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (which is a mess), and when I came across Malankara Church—which is even worse at the moment—I could detect no difference between the two; there's a fair amount of my-church-is-the-best POV-pushing and a lack of distinction between present and past, which doesn't help. I'll do what I can (without merging, unless there's consensus), but I'm just a copyeditor; this article was tagged for improvement, including a copyedit. All the best, Miniapolis 13:33, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

I oppose the merging

Malankara Church page includes informations of all the churches which are in malankara tradition. The Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church is the official Malankara Church . And all other churches ( marthoma ,jacobite syrian,syro malankara-rite Catholic church,syro malabar-catholics) split from the official body of the Malankara church ie the MOSC. Malankara Church page is for the all churches in malankara. MOSC page is for the offical Malankara Church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.97.117.237 (talk) 09:42, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

English as an Indian language

The final sentence of the section "[h]ierarchy, distribution and doctrine" goes as follows (for the purposes of honesty, I decapitalized "[l]anguages" and piped the "Konkani" link, sorry to brag):

Like the Syriac Orthodox Church, it primarily uses the liturgy of Saint James in Malayalam, Konkani, Kannada, Hindi, English and other Indian languages.

Could anyone please tell me if it's all right to call English an Indian language in this context? While the page languages of India does have English listed, I wanted to be absolutely sure about this. (Edit: Fixed quote template, sorry about that. Also sorry for the long, awkwardly placed parenthetical before the colon in the first sentence of this section.)--Thylacine24 (talk) 20:33, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 August 2020

Kindly change founded in 1912 to AD 52 and Founder Dionysius VI to Apostle Thomas Zmalluzboyz (talk) 17:36, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Thjarkur (talk) 17:50, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Saint Yeldho Mor Baselios.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:33, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Chengannur 2.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:03, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Partisan bickering is unwelcome

@Zoticus777: partisan bickering is unwelcome in this topic area. I will not hesitate to bring a WP:SPI against disruptive accounts. Especially ones that come on brand new and begin making sweeping changes and accuse others of vandalism and partisanship and being insulted. Elizium23 (talk) 04:53, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Partisan bickering are the unsourced edits of User:Ibrahim John, to humiliate a church. Removing such new unwarranted edits are what Wiki seniors editors are supposed to do or atleast such edits should be discussed here. Zoticus777 (talk) 05:01, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

I am inches away from SPI'ing Ibrahim John as well, so you should both consider yourselves on thin ice. Elizium23 (talk) 05:06, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

I have removed his edits and have given lengthy reasons. Open to any discussions here. Zoticus777 (talk) 05:12, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Zoticus777:, The origin from the traditionally believed evangelisation activity of St. Thomas is equally argued by every St. Thomas Christian denomination.

Moreover, the arrival of St. Thomas in India is not a well established fact. Many important historians of Kerala have publically denied the historicity of the tradition and the others are silent on the topic.

We can say that a Church existed before the Synod of Diamper but we cannot say that it is the present MOSC. MOSC is a West Syriac Rite Church, but the pre-Diamper Synod Church was following East Syriac Rite. I don't mean the dialect but the liturgy. MOSC is an Oriental orthodox Church but the pre-Diamper Church was 'Nestorian', affiliated to the Church of the East.

It is known to all that the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church had been functioning under the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch atleast since 1665, after the historic Coonan cross Oath. The Malankara Church considered itself to be a division of the above mentioned Church and honours the Patriarch of Antioch as the supreme leader of the Church as it is expressed in the 1934 constitution of the Church. The liturgy of the Church mentions the title of the Patriarch before mentioning the autocephalous Catholicos.

The Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church became an Autocephalous Church, i.e, an independent autonomous Church only after the Catholicate establishment of 1912, though such a move is not accepted by the Syriac Orthodox Church. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 16:42, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

For the consensus sake, let us also change the founder of Syro Malabar Church to either Portuguese Missionaries or Alexio de Menesis. Zoticus777 (talk) 18:24, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Zoticus777:, Alexio de Menesis never held any administrative position in the Syro Malabar Church. The only action he could do was the the Synod of Diamper of 1599. But neither the Syro Malabar Church nor any of the Malankara Church derivatives currently recognise the canonical nature of the Synod. The last Syriac Metropolitan of the pre-Diamper Synod Church was Mar Abraham of Angamaly, a Catholic confirmed by the Pope. His predecessor, Mar Joseph Sulaqa is the brother of the Catholic Patriarch of Babylon, Mar Yohannan Sulaqa. The administration after the Synod was undertaken by Bishop Francis Roz, who was the first Bishop of the whole of St. Thomas' Christians after the Synod of Diamper.

Moreover during that period both the Puthenkoor and Pazhayakoor were still one Church. The division occurred much later, after the Coonan Cross Oath of 1653. Parallel hierarchy, a direct implication of schism only began in the years following 1665. You should also take into account that it was Archbishop Stephen Britto who consecrated Marthoma I as the Archdeacon. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 01:18, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Vattasheril Mor Dionsiyus was the democratically elected Malankara Metropolitan of united church. He and the managing committee of the church maintained the verdict of the previous Royal Court judgement. The Supreme court of India does not recognize two separate churches but two factions. The offical party continued to maintain the status quo as per the Royal court judgement. Zoticus777 (talk) 02:21, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Consensus? What consensus? And please, all of you, please make an effort to indent (:::) and thread your comments properly. They are very difficult to read and follow in the first place. Elizium23 (talk) 02:24, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Vattasseril Mar Dionysius is the founder of the MOSC. He was initially consecrated by Ignatius Abded Aloho II, Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch. Later he established a Church by name Orthodox Syrian by interchanging the existing name. He was excommunicated by the Patriarch of Antioch. All his predecessors were Archbishops of the Malankara Archdiocese of the Syriac Orthodox Church. Court judgements decides the legal status, not history. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 02:59, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Vattasheril Mor Dionsiyus was the democratically elected leader of the united Malankara Church. In the Malankara Church, decision making authority lies with the Managing Committee, not with a Bishop. During his term Patriarch Abdul Aloho, demanded the church hand over temporal authority to Patriarch which was against the previous Royal court verdict. The demand of the Patriarch was resisted by the managing committee of the united church. Those who supported the action of the Patriarch became 'bava kakshi' (Patriarch Faction) and the ones who resisted the action of the Patriarch became 'methran kakshi' or the party of the Malankara Metropolitan.

Even the words still used by the courts and both the groups is 'kakshi' or 'faction'. The source you have provided do not explicitly state Mor Dionsiyus is the founder of any Church. Zoticus777 (talk) 03:24, 10 December 2020 (UTC)